Ben Rector: The Great Sock Shootout

30:14I don't like spending that I don't like that exchange because it feels weird and like sideways and it's like I want to connect with my friends I don't want to compete with them and like you know I joked with Hillary it's like whatever small amount of lowercase f fame I have the only thing you can turn that in for is like free drinks and good parking and that's it and it's like and like I totally I'm totally down to have a tequila soda but I don't I don't need that many of it's like and it's like i love a great parking spot that's awesome the analogy breaks down with the parking honestly if i would do anything for good parking but i think it's like you know that the the bigger that you get the more there is that goes in front of you and every interaction that you have and the more it changes it and it's like i don't well i'm sure i do want to impress people but that's not the currency that i want to run on in real life because it's like that's not i don't like that exchange i like a more i like a hopefully pure exchange of like i like this person they like me that's it yeah and you know the wider your fame gets the harder it is to have that and it's just like i don't i don't want that to poison the well of like all my human interactions so i think it's that stuff like all mixed together and again i don't want to i don't want to sound like i'm like i'm totally purely motivated like definitely i would love for people to be like you're so good at this like i'm human but like i don't want that to be the primary that ends up being more of a negative for me than a positive generally because it just changes the nature of your interactions with everyone and i'm just like i don't really like that yeah i don't it's not a comfortable thing for me.

32:01That is one of the things that, that like when I sit with younger artists and I try to encourage them, man, it's like, that's maybe one of the one things if somebody gave me a megaphone on music growth and all the artists were in the streets looking at me, waited with bated breath. I think the thing that I may say is like, you really can make this career, whatever you want. Like it doesn't have to scale. It can scale whatever, but I don't know. I just feel like the machine of the industry can get behind you sometimes in ways that you articulated so well earlier. And I'm sure many industries are like this.

32:34I don't think it's at all related to ours. But, you know, where you kind of go, well, this is what you do. Yeah. And you can kind of look up and go, well, hold on. And I think it should be said also, I think there are a lot of people who do want that. Yes, that's right. I don't want to like ran on that parade and be like, that's dumb. It's like there are people who are great at scale and want to do that. Right. And that is great. I just think that like, that's not every person. Well, and I think too, what happens is people go, oh, that's the, that's the, you know, that's the, what is it? The chase dog.

33:06That's the thing. That's the pace setter. And I think too, it's like, I think about this a lot where it's like everybody around you, if you, they think you could do that, they think you want that. And I think I realized like, it's almost like I'm like really at heart, like a character actor who's almost a lead actor and everyone's like you're a lead actor dude let's get you in the marvel shows and i'm just like i'm not and they're like no you you are and i'm like i don't think you understand this yeah i don't like that yeah and i don't i'm not saying that like that i have the capability to do that or something but that's almost like there are people that should go and be that because that's what they are and i think the older i've gotten i'm like oh like I'm sort of like a tweener character actor but really my heart is more that and it's like that's why when I started leaning into the like lead actor sphere I was like oh my gosh I don't like this where I think the people around me are like what's your deal dude this is like going great and I was like I don't like this feels bad to me and some people are really well suited for that and should do that but I think that there's that's not every person and I think generally everybody around you it's like you're like a racehorse they're like you're a fast horse let's get you to the wherever the fast horses go and i think i was kind of like i kept being like what's wrong that i don't like that and i think it's it's not any more complicated than that it's just like oh like i i'm it's like a race car engine that isn't a race car actually it's like yeah it starts like getting too hot in here like my rpms are crazy but some people are like i love it like give me rocket fuel let me go a million miles an hour and i was like i feel like my car is breaking i don't like this you know what it made me think of i'm gonna laugh i'm sorry sweet zanna was in a 400 relay and she had never done a 400 relay it was so exciting for the first fourth of that oh my god she ripping oh ripping and just like she had been blow darted at about A quarter in, you just saw like everybody pass.

35:10And it is one of my favorite things she's ever, like it's one of my favorite Xan interaction of all time. And she is hysterical. She is, I can't tell you how funny this girl is, but she got in the car and I sort of at the moment was like, what's the play here, dad? Do you like, you know, and she got in and I was like, man, you know, like how'd you feel? She literally goes, boy, I just, I did not do that right. But I was like, you know, to your point, it was like, she was sort of like, you got to come out hot. I think, I think too, you know, and I mean, you have a whole thought on this, but I think, I don't know.

35:45It's, it's, it's, it's like, I wish that we as people did a better job when we interact with someone who's really got a substantial gift. and we see them and we go, man, when I see you play basketball or run or paint or sing, it's transcendent. It affects me in a profound way. I feel a little bit of the divine interaction and this whole thing. But when that person goes, man, that means the world to me. Do you know what I kind of want to do with this? And they go, I kind of want to have like a really healthy job and I really want to have a healthy family life and a home life. I can fend me. I'm like, oh, I don't know if you want to do that.

36:27Don't waste it. You're wasting it. You've been given. And I just think I've thought about this so much in my life, but I think what it is, my best guess at it is that I think because it is an iteration of the divine, because it's transcendent, we want as much transcendence as we can get. And so it's actually not about you. I'm not thinking about Ben Rector. and what you can achieve. It's all about me as being entertained. And I've had to do so much work around just in my little dark heart of going, because I want that. I would love nothing more than my friends would come to me and say, hey, I'm trying to create healthy lifestyles in my career.

37:02I'm like, bro, I'm on the front of that line for you. Let me know what I can do. But also, if you sat with me and said, hey, if I'm being honest, you're like, I think I'm done. I'm not going to make any more music. Now, I would be like, but some part of my heart would be like, oh, no. Yeah. And so I think that's also a tension we have as just humans. And it could be athletic. It could be business. People just not make money, whatever. There is something, kind of like you just said, John, it's like, oh, no, don't let it go to waste. Totally. Hold on. Ben Rector doesn't owe Dave Barnes a thing. That's it.

37:37Your talent doesn't mean I need to have a piece of it. It's yours to judge with you and Hillary and the Lord what you want to do with it. Yeah. And then that's on you. and I think too the vibe that I'm in right now is like I want to see because I agree with you it's like I think there are situations where it's like oh dude like be a good steward of this don't just be like I'm going to go live under a rock but I think part of me is like I'll never forget this I was in my family went to San Francisco when I was like I don't know 10 or something and we went to this place called Dottie's True Blue Cafe and there's like a guy at a flat top small restaurant and he's like making all the stuff and I remember being like wow that is so awesome and part of me was like I don't want to like do that but I loved that vibe where he's like this is my spot I'm making the stuff and that was really impactful for me uh and I don't think I put that together until later but there's a part of you it's like hey man there should be a hundred dotty's true blue cafes everywhere and in reality that guy is giving people that that come there and that's what he should be doing and so part of me is like because i agree with you it's like i do want to be a good steward of this i don't know exactly the right way to do it but i'm like is there a way that i could be a version of that where like every time I go on stage or every time I make a song, I want it to be like just a force for good in the world and that everybody that comes in contact with it is like, wow, that was like, that like spoke to me deeply.

39:18But that it doesn't have to also compete at the scale game, which is like, well, there should be a hundred of these cafes. And it's like, no, there should be this one. And so it's like, is there a way to be a good steward of it and to hopefully give that gift anytime that you do it, but also be like, yeah, and like it's for these seats only. It's for the cafe only. And can that be just as good as trying to make there be a hundred of those? Because there are people, like we said earlier, it's like, dude, the people that made Chipotle or the people that made like whatever, that's a perfect, scalable, excellent concept.

39:59and it should be what it is. But everything shouldn't be that. That's right. That's a great way to put that. That's not the right approach to try to make that guy do that thing everywhere because he might be like, man, part of the deal is these ingredients that can only work this way and me doing it. That whole thing is part of it. My hope is that I can figure out how doable that is because I think the reality is if I was trying to like reverse engineer what people are getting from me doing this, I think it would be worse. I would be in a worse place. I don't think it would be the same kind of vibe if I was like, yeah, man, like plug me into the machine, shoot me into the sun.

40:44I think that that would like go away. I think I would go away. I'd be like, I can't do this anymore. This isn't like, this isn't me anymore. And so my hope is that I could like find a way to do really excellent work maybe with a more like pointed approach and not smaller scale like i'm not doing this really anymore but it's like that might be the best version of what i do and i want to be open to like if like i feel like god is like nope you need to do this like i'm in that game i'm like i want to go where i'm supposed to go but for right now i'm like man we've equated value both artistic and monetary and whatever only with scale and in reality it's like it's like more it's like that's like one plane there's another plane that's depth like how good is it how deep does it go how like hard does it hit people but we only measure on the x-axis like well like i want to think about the y-axis yeah it's like because some people are excellent x-axis x-axis players and i'm like okay at that like if it was like video game character stats like how good is this guy at x-axis stuff it's like pretty good not generationally good it's like all right how good are you at y-axis like actually like pretty good at that i'm like oh okay like then let's like let's graph that out you know what i mean and so i don't know where that will lead and i'm open to like whatever it's supposed to look like but i think for a long time it's easy to only look at the width and be like, well, that's how good this is.

42:16Or that's how important it is. Or that's how valuable it is. And it's like, man, I think there's more ways to do that because I think if they tried to open, and I don't even remember the food that well at Dottie's, maybe it's like not good. I don't know. But like, you know, maybe trying to make there be a hundred of those would actually be a worse endeavor. And it's like the experience that I had there, I wouldn't have had in the 97th Dottie's Trouble Cafe. I would have been like, this place kind of sucks. I don't know. but the version that I had of it at that time in my life was really impactful.

42:44And I'm like, I kind of believe in that. And I don't think there's a lot of people that are thinking about that. And I'm like, man, I think there's just more ways to measure it than that. And I think that I want to try to figure that out for myself. And I don't know exactly what it would look like, but I feel peace about where I am now, where it's like anybody that comes to the symphony shows, I'm like, man, I think we're really doing a great thing. And I think if we tried to just like blow that up, I don't know if it would be as good. i wouldn't probably be as present if we're like hey we're not doing however many we're doing 20 something we're doing 100 of them yeah it's like i think shows 38 through 100 would just be like oh man are you okay and i'd be like i'm not okay because i haven't talked to my kids and forever and i'm like not present with jay's failing math i mean it's kind of for real yeah and so on that level it's just like yeah that's you know and maybe my my bigger picture hope is that like what if that started to be if people like hey there's something there that's still really valuable and good like maybe that's another approach it's like i just don't see a lot of people doing that uh and not that's like some like perfect you know way to do it but i'm it excites me to approach it like that to be like yeah like this could look like this but i want it to look like that and you know ask me again in four years maybe i'll be like this was a bad idea

44:00Jon McLaughlin:Does that spill over into like, you know, it applies to all the sort of controllable aspects of what we do. How many shows are we going to play? What venues are we going to play? How big is the team going to be, et cetera? Does it spill over into the other aspect where it's like, you have made this new album that you poured a lot into, and then you put it out into the world, and then that's going to do what it's going to do on the X axis. And I think honestly, dude, that, and it's this would be a way easier conversation to have five years ago where i feel like to me the x-axis is just like busted it's like i don't understand it anymore i don't think anybody does i definitely my pride it's harder for me to be like what am i okay with because i definitely do have the part that's like competitive and wants to like do well in the world and so i'm trying to i'm trying to figure out what i'm okay with there yeah because it's a little harder to like know how to do that thing now because I feel like it's just a way harder needle to thread um so yeah I think like it's easier for me to answer for live performance because I feel totally at peace about that but it's harder for me to get excited about like you know it feels like it used to be like you made a restaurant and now like it's like you basically make a dish that you hope gets in a buffet that's all you can eat it's just hard for me to watch like the sushi that I've so carefully prepared, just like get thrown out into the buffet and people are just like, yeah, I don't know.

45:27And I'm like, oh, it's really good sushi. And they're like, yeah, I know. But like, this guy's got like beef tallow queso French fries. I'm just like, I know they're great, but like, this is also good. So that, that's a harder question for me to answer. And I'm trying to figure that out as far as recorded music goes. I don't know. Yeah. So, so with, I mean, I love what you're doing. We all both are doing with the show. uh what what was the impetus of that because it's so wonderfully i mean you and i have talked for hours about this in our text exchange but i love when an artist does something like this kind of does something that's like hey i just feel really inspired to do something that may on the surface feel a little out of nowhere like you want to watch dave barnes like lean in i'm like oh yeah what is this so so how did this come about what made you want to do this so uh man it's it's a saga.

46:17I started writing songs for American cities and states as a fun challenge for myself when I went on the Joy of Music tour. Oh, wow. Whatever that I think was called that? I don't know. That tour. And I was like, started writing the songs. I was like, man, these feel like different than anything that I've written. They almost feel like classic, like what's the guy's name? Sousa? John Phillips Sousa? Oh, yeah. It's like almost that. It's like almost Broadway, almost like classic American music. And so I was like, what do I do with these? And they just kept like coming back and I didn't know what to do.

46:53And so basically I was like, I'm not going to make a record because no one's probably going to listen to, you know, 20 songs about States. They're going to be like, this is weird. And, um, you're not making a record. Why might I'm trying to figure that out because now like they sound like they should be done with orchestra, but it's like, how do you do that? Um, so I emailed, this is a long time ago. It's like almost three years ago, I emailed the guy at the Kennedy Center because he was the first person to book the symphony shows. It was what I was doing with Cody. And then he was kind of instrumental.

47:23Like he was like, whoa, this is a great show. And he like talks to other symphonies and then they, a bunch of the other ones booked us. So I emailed him, I think almost three years ago. And I was like, hey, I have this crazy idea. I want to do like one time, just like songs for america i wrote these songs and he was like dude 2026 is america's 250th oh wow i didn't know that you should do this everybody's gonna want to book it because everyone's looking for you know stuff that's around that theme there's not a lot of stuff i was like oh awesome and so he's like stoked about it and then three years ago yes wow and he's like yeah well because i was like i was like i just artistically want to do this and he was like we'll just wait and do it then and so he was stoked and he's like dude we're gonna make this our pbs special this is gonna be awesome and i was like sick and then in the next you know the next few years things got a little weirder and then pbs was like hey now we don't have money to make specials anymore and so i was like okay well that's fine and initially we're talking like creative it's like we're gonna do like video behind us and it's gonna be awesome um and so the pbs thing went away as a bummer and then like it was just more complicated like you know usa pride is a little more complicated because if like some people were like this is a terrible time to be an american and some people were like hell yeah it's the best time to be an american i'm like i don't know if i'm totally down on either one of those yeah yeah yeah you know polls yeah uh and so it was tough too because like the weirder stuff got like at the kennedy center everyone was canceling their shows i didn't want to cancel the shows because I was like I don't want to boycott stuff I don't think the changes that were happening there were great because like I think they were happening too fast and felt like very political and it's like I was trying to do this in an apolitical way yeah but then the bummer I think is like it feels like both of those sides the far left far right far left would be like the only right thing to do now is to like burn this mother down yeah I'm like well i would want to be able to like say hey like this is a crazy time probably unprecedented i don't feel great about it but i think we need to work on disagreeing and like still working together yeah and i feel like people on the far right would be like what are you talking about dude like this is sick like just do it and so initially the idea for the show is like half the show is going to be those songs and the theme for the whole show is going to be like it's going to be branded as songs for America.

49:50That's it. And as stuff got weirder and weirder, I was like, man, I don't know if it feels like the right time to be like, hey, put me on record as being like, I'd like to talk about America for the next six months. Because I think that people would just be like, whoa, like, what are you going to say? And I'd be like, well, I don't really want to talk about politics. People are like, what? And so it was just kind of a bummer because I was so stoked about the whole like theme and then it felt like there wasn't a great way to talk about it in a nuanced way where it's like because i think that the minute you step full into that sphere it's just going to be a loss on both sides because both people are going to be like you're not doing what i want you to do and they're going to read into oh i didn't know you were so like when we canceled the kennedy center shows because it just got so crazy everyone was quitting i was like i don't even know if anyone's going to work there by the time we play the shows um and the spoiler alert they shut the kennedy center down but when we cancel the shows i think people on the right were frustrated because they're like why'd you do that and it's just like because i i can't play these shows without because when the shows went up for sale uh the shows because we had booked them way before any of that stuff i was catching flack for even playing there this was before it had gotten really bad and people were like i can't believe you'd play there in 2026 this is a political statement.

51:11I'm just like, no, it's not. I, it's a great American place. I want to play there. It just felt like I was like, man, the minute that I like enter this discussion, it feels like a lose lose because everyone has such strong ideas about what it should be. And so basically I ended up scaling it back a little bit, just being like, I don't, like I'm a sensitive person. I'm not built for controversy. I just don't want the comment section of my posts and my inbox to just be like, you know, terrible things. And so I was like, but I still want to do it. And so now probably a third of the show is the songs.

51:45And it's not as, it's not like, Hey, this is all what we're doing, which I think was the right decision because it's also like, I don't want to, I don't want to put fans on their heels and be like, wait, like, what are you talking about? I don't know if I want to hear, you know, it was so interesting. We played a show in Minneapolis and I was, I've been off Instagram for like three months. I got back on because we posted about it and Minneapolis has had a hard time with the ice stuff and it was it's like it's pretty raw there like knowing people that live there it's like oh dude they're like going through it in a way that you wouldn't know if you're not in there and so I got a message from a guy and he was like hey and this is why I just should never look at messages he's like I just want to let you know I was disappointed that you didn't say anything about what our city's going through and I understand that could be a tough place for you but it's never a bad idea to do the right thing.

52:36And what I wanted to say to him, I didn't respond to it, but I want to be like, here's the hard part is for you, the air quotes, right thing might not be the same as other people. If I'd been like, Hey, Minneapolis, I want to take this time to talk about what you're going through. I think it's probable that I would have gotten, you know, messages like, Hey man, we've been going through it. I just really wanted to like sit and enjoy an evening and not have it be focused on that. And so like, it's a tough place to be. And it's just not a conversation that I think I want to lead the way on because I don't think I'm going to change anybody's mind about anything.

53:10And people at this moment, I think, really just want to know that you agree with them on everything, which is like, well, dude, these are all complex issues. And if you want to talk one-on-one about this, I'd like to do that. But I just don't want to do it in front of everybody because I don't think it's going to get us closer to where we need to be. And I can already hear the messages that I will get and be like, no you need to say this and i want to be like but the reality is we're all going to have to work together after this craziness subsides and i think that we're going to have to get better at that primarily because the other approach which i think right now for both extremes is like we just need to win all the time it's like that's not going to work if you're on the right or the left like we're going to have to at some point start like coming back together and having our conversations I just don't in my life want to carry that burden because I don't think I'm going to be a great vessel for it.

54:06So that was the initial idea for the shows. And then I was like, I would like to maybe like not have it primarily be that because I didn't know if it was going to be a good thing in the world. I think there were going to be too many people who would be like upset one way or the other. And I just wanted it to be a gift to everybody. And so we still get to do, I think I get to talk about that a little bit in the show and do the state songs and they're really special. I mean,

54:30Jon McLaughlin:there is a moment in the show that is, I am my opinion, the perfect message for the time. Yeah, totally. And it's like, I think that I feel really good about that moment and feel really good about like, this is what I want to say. Boom. But I just didn't think that like having the theme outwardly, be, hey, I'm doing a show about America in 2026. It's just like, I just think it's a little too raw generally for people to be like, I can't wait to see that. I think people are going to be like, yikes, what's this going to be? And I feel really good about what it is, but that was the original play for the symphony stuff.

55:13And then we kind of just made it like, hey, this is just a symphony show. I think I want to record the songs for American places. They do feel like unique and special to me. I don't know how I'm going to do it because recording them with an orchestra is really hard. And in the era of content, it's like, I don't know what visually would work. I don't know if it makes sense to be like, I recorded an orchestra playing these songs, but you can't see that. Like I'm trying to thread that needle. So I don't, I don't really know what that will end up being, but I do want to record them. Do you, do you, um, was it hard narrowing the songs down though knowing you had all these it was a little bit and then i think once i did most of the arrangements with ben shive and i think when they started coming together i started seeing like okay i think that the there's like a good representation of each like flavor and when we play in a state like we will play that state song oh cool we played the minnesota song in minnesota but i'm probably not going to play that everywhere because it's like you know I think if I'm going to play like a song about a state in the middle of the country, I think the Ohio song is a little bit more like universal feeling.

56:27And then the last song is about Branson, which we'll play every time, which is kind of a funny song. But it ended up being like pretty clear where it's like, oh, like this kind of like is a good outline of like what I want to say. And it was it was helpful to do the arrangements and then to play a couple of the shows. Make, OK, yeah, this feels right. That's cool. it's a little bit of a bummer because it's like oh man I would like to play more of them but then there's also the part of me that's like the people that are like I really wanted you to play whatever song that's normal I paid all this money for a ticket it feels like the right balance of like hey trust me on playing these whatever five songs this is a little different but I didn't want to play like nine songs because I think people would be like cool but can you please play a couple of the ones that I know

57:17Jon McLaughlin:You're never not going to have those people who are like, I wish you would have played whatever. Yeah. But it feels like the right amount where I think, I don't know that anyone's like, I wish you'd played five more state songs. And I might enjoy that, but I also want to be cognizant of like, you know, on the seventh song they've never heard, they might be like, okay, like, got it. What a weird thing to juggle that's so particular to what we all do is like when you've got, you know, seven records, 10 records, 12 or whatever, where you're trying to make stinking set lists. Yeah. It's the opposite of what a comedian has.

57:58Jon McLaughlin:It's totally the opposite. Like five new songs in a row is like, guys, you kind of set this up. You're like, hang with us here. Yeah. You know, I promise it'll be good. But you go see Nate Bargatze and you're like, it's all name. Totally. I want all of it to be new. Totally. Totally. What is your favorite song that's not a state song in this symphonic context to sing or to play? The hard part is my favorites probably are the state songs. Oh, really? Or is there one that surprised you how good it sounds with the symphony? I think the way that California came together, it just is like, oh, man, this is a thing.

58:40It's just really cool. That's awesome. Yeah.

58:42Jon McLaughlin:California was just the one that like, it just worked immediately. Yeah. Even with us three rehearsing, it was like, oh, great. And like, so the other ones just sound like world fashion. Jared was like, what do I do? And I was like, I don't know. Could you sound like a marching band? Like, you know, but yeah, I don't, I mean like, there's honestly, there's not a song in the symphony set that I'm like, oh, we got to play this one. They're all, they all really are fun and playing with an orchestra just we talk about this backstage all the time sitting on a stage with a full orchestra incredible oh inches away from you is it's like something that every single human being should experience and it honestly it's like it's a very it is a unique uh it's like a one-of-one thing where it's like hey like there's 80 people making music together doing one thing it's like that doesn't and they're amazing yeah they're really good yeah

59:55anyway everyone was backstage no way the entire cast of disney yeah wow anyway speaking of

1:00:04Jon McLaughlin:production dave i feel like improving your sleep has somehow become this whole production It's like new mattress, blackout curtains, supplements, tracking your REM cycles. It's exhausting just thinking about it. It makes me want to sleep, ironically. Yeah. Can I tell you what's interesting? Please. It turns into a full lifestyle change, John. Oh, right. You know, and funny thing is, I realized the issue for me wasn't any of that, Dave. It was just my bedding. Okay? My sheets were worn out. Like, I pound those things. Corners popping off. You know, pillows kind of flat. Yeah. And I didn't even notice how much it was affecting my sleep.

1:00:38You know, just like the Fantastic Four, that's the thing. Most people don't need a whole new system, John. They just need better stuff on their bed. On their bed, exactly.

1:00:46Jon McLaughlin:And that's why we upgraded to Bowl and Branch. I knew you knew that I was going to say. No, I want to be clear. Not you and I. No. Well, separately. Corporately. Yeah, we corporately, but definitely not. It's wild how big of a difference it made immediately. They make everything, too. Everything, John. Not just sheets. Their signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, comforters. It's all designed to be super soft, breathable. And actually work together. Just like us. Yeah. You know, we started with the signature sheets. Okay. And the first night I got into bed, I knew this is different.

1:01:16Jon McLaughlin:Different. Yeah. This is soft. Yeah. This is cooler. Okay. Just more comfortable overall. Though they didn't come with a signature and that I want to be clear. Right. No, no, no. It's their signature sheets. You're not going to get a Michael Jones. We can't be. We can't be more clear on that. Which one can help. And the sheets, they get, you know what? Just like me, John, which I don't like, they get softer over time. You know what? I'm trying to, but to quote Mercy Mead, I can't imagine sleep without Bowlin Branch right now. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15 % off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com slash dadville with code dadville.

1:01:49Jon McLaughlin:That's Bowlin Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash dadville. Code dadville to unlock 15 % off. Exclusions apply. i would imagine too on a stay with me biological cellular level what is happening with sound waves totally is got to be pretty unique sitting where y 'all are to feel the the just that yes and whatever like whatever thing happens with music that is like a spiritual thing that's like hey like, you know, some other like energy going on. It is a really wild thing. Like when everything clicks, it's like, whoa. Just because there's that many people all doing their very best to make something great happen.

1:02:39It's really cool. For Enneagram one, this is like heaven. Totally. When it goes good. When it goes good. And then slightly different. Okay. We got a speed round for you, Ben. You're not going to believe. Can't wait. Can I quickly ask a question?

1:02:55Jon McLaughlin:I don't know if I've, we maybe asked you and Hillary this last time you guys were here, so forgive me if this is the case. But this is something that I think a lot about as a dad. And I'm curious how you feel about this. Like, you know, Luca's 13, Libby's 10. I find myself sometimes having panic moments a little bit where I'm like, okay, Luca has like five more years in the house. which is crazy by the way it's crazy she and i were just today talking about driving when i was driving her to school she was anyway that's that's another conversation but the question is how much emphasis do you put you and hillary put on like academics and i know this is early for you guys yeah but because for me i'm like that's never been i'm going to school kind of i went to college kind of for fun i mean i loved i loved my uh studying classical piano in college but it was like i was my plan was to drop out like having some kind of a like really paper that said you learned stuff has never been in a part of my equation yeah i've never you know for like a job interview or something like that and so sometimes i panic and i'm like what if i completely drop the ball and our girls graduate from high school and then they're like we don't have any skill we don't know anything our parents didn't instill that in us do you at all have an eye on that that like their trajectory may not be the same as what yours was i i think the thing that i care about most because i don't know what they will do i don't know what the world will be like by the time they're like maybe ai is going to be like making all of our breakfasts or something i don't know what the world would be like what what they'll want to do i think that with the thing of jane with the math stuff my almost only goal for them is that they would be very persistent and like gritty where it's like you know everyone used to be like oh you need to learn this because like you're not gonna have a calculator all the time it's like she will be able to ask ai to do anything and it will do it but i want her to know and the boys to know like hey you need to know that you are capable of figuring something out and overcoming it that's like almost all i care about where it's like you know for her the way that this specific math homework is set up is probably not great for her because like she knows it all like when i sat with her she got everyone right i got up to 99 and then she just like lost focus because she could do it 40 minutes yeah and then she was just like i don't know like started guessing i want her to take away from that as she does it more hey this isn't set up for you in an ideal way but you are smart and driven enough that you can figure it out and make it work yeah and so like it might be harder for her specifically with this exact kind of math and instead of being like oh like this is you know this is hard for you like don't worry about it it's really it's just this math i want to be like hey this is not you know your ideal setup but you can still be gritty enough to like figure out how to navigate it because i think if she gets if they get that sort of like motor i'm like that yeah is the only thing that i really care if you get or not.

1:06:33If you let me like pick one thing, it would be like, I have been through hard things and I have navigated them and I'm the kind of person that can and will figure stuff out. That's almost all I care about. And I think that that manifests probably in like, yeah, I want you to do good at school. Hillary and I, I mean, Hillary is way better at school than I was. She's like super brilliant and I did reasonable, but like less than I'm like, I have to get you to get all A's and I need you to get into this college. If I feel like I know that they will deal with adversity in a way that's like, I'm just going to shut down.

1:07:09It's like, nope, I'm the kind of person that will see the adversity and try my damnedest to figure it out and get over the hump. That's almost all I care about. Because I feel like that engine is what will propel them forward in whatever they're doing. More than, yeah, I'm really good at multiple choice tests. I just want them to be like there will be stuff in their life that will come extraordinarily easy to them and there will be stuff that's hard I want to know that when they hit a hard patch or there's something that they're not great at that they're like I'm the kind of person that figures stuff out and so more than I care about specific stuff in like academia I care about that where it's like and the great irony is like she really is good at math like she's good at it but it's okay for this specific race it's not ideal set up for you, but you're the kind of person that figures stuff out.

1:08:01We just did a whole episode with David and Sissy on resilience.

1:08:06Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. I just wrote a whole book on it. Literally that would be, that's mainly what I care about. And I'm not like, you know, I grew up in Tulsa and I was not in like the mover and shaker world. And I think because of like music and golf, I've run into more of those people. I don't feel any pressure to be like, I got to get my kids into an Ivy league school. It's just like if Jane is unreal at school or the boys are and they really want to do it, I'd love to try to help them with that. But I don't feel any pressure to be like, yeah, you need to do that. I just feel pressure to be like that thing inside of you that like gets overwhelmed at whatever.

1:08:43Learn to like gather yourself and be like, okay, deep breath. I'm a person that figures stuff out and overcomes things. I got it. That's like almost all I care about.

1:08:53Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. That's good. All right. Here we go. Speed round. You going first or I'm going first? Okay, chill out. We'll go at the same time. You've been on here a few times. So we thought, let's get some dad speed questions. Great. So buckle up. Most dad injury you've had in the last year? Oh, last year.

1:09:21Last year. My knees hurt a little bit. I've been working out a bunch and I've been doing squats a lot. Wow. Which is hilarious because I don't look like that, but I do them a lot. And when I do that in conjunction with either running or a racket sport, like pickleball, or I started playing badminton, you can laugh at that. No, no, no. I just like the genre of a racket sport. Well, it's a lot of them. It's basically like a lot of quick cutting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lateral, yeah, yeah. Yeah. if I'm doing the squats and that for the first time ever, it's like the front of my kneecap hurts. You feel it, yeah.

1:10:03And so now I'm going to the workout after this. I told the guy, I'm like, hey, I got to take a break on the squats because I'm not going to break any world records and I don't want my knees to hurt. Yeah. So that's probably the most one. Yeah.

1:10:15Jon McLaughlin:All right. What's the most suburban sentence you've said recently? These are tough questions. I mean, I say a lot of suburban sentences. It's like, I don't know, John. I say a lot of suburban stuff. I told my buddies the other night, I was like, hey, do you want to come over to the house and sit in the driveway? I got some New Zealand white wines. Yeah, that would qualify. That's the most soccer mom thing you've ever said. That was heavily qualified. I'm not super into wine, but I feel like New Zealand white wine is not super fancy. It's not like French white wine. It's like a lot of$20 bottles of wine.

1:10:54I would give so much money if some fans who are just driving randomly down your street drove by and went and went, was that Ben Rector drinking New Zealand white wine in his parking, in his driveway with his friends? We have those giant camping chairs and we watch the kids ride bikes. So I'm out there. You guys do have a great driveway. It's a good driveway for them. You know, I've never been to your house. Oh, really? We'll talk about that later. Come over. It still kind of hurts. I don't actually know where you live, which is weird. I'll never tell you. That's fair. you learn from the street no you'll be following me to the strangest workout facility in the world where you can't do knee work what's a purchase that you've made that made you feel 100 years old they stopped making the socks that I like and so I did a sock shootout I ordered like four different pairs of like nice white socks yeah Because sometimes they're a little too slippery on the bottom.

1:11:55These decisions get labeled as middle-aged dad guy.

1:12:00Jon McLaughlin:But I'm like, it just makes sense. Here's the sad part, too. We would have done this in our 20s if we had the money. That's funny enough, but Socks, dude, that is hitting me. The real sad part is the Enneagram oneness. The only time I'm having a good time is if I think I'm also getting better at something. so I'm like, well, I want to know what the best socks are. Yeah, yeah. So here's, okay, just a practical. I could have just ordered the same brand again, but they're a little different, and I'm like, there might be a better sock out there. I need to find it. So what I want it to be, and you just tell me this, but I want it to be what I see in my head is that you've gotten all the Amazon bags, or if they're from like a bougie nice company, they can have their own bag, and you've laid them out by twos, and then you go, okay, I'm going to walk this far.

1:12:44I'm going to do a couple of lateral cuts, put on a couple of different pair of shoes. well so really the phase right we've just received all the socks oh and i this is new i have to wash them all one time because they're a little slicker than normal yeah yeah and honestly the real deal so these socks i'm wearing now there's a stance their stance but this is like a it's unique they to see that it's like a it's like a specific running sock that has ridges on it oh and so it's a little grippier but so they don't make the ones that i want in this anymore they're all like it's like Chewbacca socks and it's just like I just want I want the ridges but normal that'll make that and so basically I want a little bit of traction for my athletic activities you know I don't like slipping around too much and so I want to wash them once and then I want to go I want to get on the pickleball court or the badminton court I want to walk around to golf and I don't want to be slipping around too much so how there's so many soundbites in this conversation just right now how long is the test of these like when when when would yeah when will you know if hill is like hey babe what's your take you'd be like i gave it five days i'm going to i think i need honestly i'm particular enough that i'm going to know if it's not right after the if i if i wear one of the brands after the first wash i don't like it i'm going to know that that's not right but i think before i have like a real new starting lineup i'm going to need i'm going to need at least one or two times of each activity at a minimum this is gonna be a 18 month process

1:14:19Jon McLaughlin:minimum i love i know you have to go but we i'll know i wish we would have talked badminton more are you playing badminton yes like what time is it hours of badminton i just ran into game do people play badminton uh they do coming back it's not i went on a retreat a guy asked me to go on a retreat and i went it was great and then he was like hey a couple of us play badminton um at this like community center you should come wait is this is this with andy and everybody yeah oh dude they go hard so hard and so basically like they play monday and wednesday and monday i you know i'm trying to get a little exercise and i got tired of just doing boring stuff and i was like yeah i'll come and i'm pretty bad at it and like i don't believe that person i don't either you're good at sports you should believe it it's a hard sport and so it's actually good for me because like i really am not that good and it's kind of a high pressure situation because the people that are there care about it a lot and i have to like be on someone's team and i'm like i'm kind of the weak link here so it's a little bit of exercise and it's a good workout for my pride because i'm like i just have to eat it i'm like i don't i'm not that great at this and we lost because i'm that great and so it's a it's it's a good combo i probably is not something you experience much well i you're good at most sports i self-select out of things that i'm not good at which is not a great trait so i'm trying to just self-select in okay last question peak i've become my dad moment i don't know what beat socks shootout but i'm here for the answer i think my dad likes things to be like pretty like orderly and there are parts of my life that are like that i get like really regimented on like what i make i'll like eat the same breakfast for a really long time and for a while we're friends so i'm going to say this i got in a zone with oatmeal i'm not in the zone anymore but i wanted oatmeal i didn't want the plain oatmeal tasted not like anything had like a soap taste almost yeah yeah and they have normal brown sugar which is more sugar than i wanted they've got either reduced or no sugar brown sugar oh flavor oh i started doing and the one packet is not it's like a hundred calories like it's like not enough breakfast so i wanted two packets but the problem was both packets was too sweet ah so i would put one packet in and then i would get you know like a sifter like a really fine strainer i would dump the other packet over the trash and i would sift out the flavoring and then put the barely sweet oats on top of the other one and it was perfect and so i had that dialed and then i would measure this is this is where you can laugh at me no we're already laughing i know i would measure a tablespoon of peanut butter and smear it over the top there's no laughing there i love but yeah Here's the way you can laugh.

1:17:24I started having a hunch that one of our tablespoons was larger than the other one, so I used that one. Guys, this is what it is to be. I love this so much. Listen, and I want to go on record. I fully believe that it's 10 % bigger than the other scoop. I really do. I mean, just the line I started having.

1:17:44Jon McLaughlin:Now, in your mind, you're going back to old recipes, the Hillary and you made. Oh, my gosh. Everything was 10 % off. Hey, what was the thing? It's when you're living on Paris and it kind of went viral. What was the thing you used to make for breakfast? Oh, I seared muffins. It's honestly, it's a great thing to do. The problem is if you're a real grownup, you realize that muffins, someone else said this, I'm ripping this, muffins are just cake. Yeah, I don't know. And so I was like, I can't eat cake every day for breakfast. But people will still ask me that. Are you still searing muffins? I'm like, no, I'm not.

1:18:12But it is, and this is the same thing. I used to toast the muffins, but it would dry out a little bit and I wanted some crisp and I realized you cut it clean, sear both sides. If you want to know just on the most topical level, just the beginning of the epidermis, very top, the difference between an Enneagram 1 and an Enneagram 7, you have explained it with every answer in this thing. Totally. I mean, I've already lost interest and I've got the, I'm like, ah, screw it, who cares? Put peanut butter lips and I'll power through it. Like, you know, Brad's the same way. My brother, he's one. his i just i i'm so i admire it so much to just slow down your life you want this to be good dave i'm like i do but i just don't know it's it's it's such it's such a curse because i can't enjoy anything like if if we if we went to the same restaurant like whatever i could tell you anything that is marginally different if we got the same dish wow i could be like there's not as much sesame oil in this today and because of that like it's like it is a curse wow like hillary is always just like because she just like enjoys stuff she's like this is great like we have a place we really like that's a great chicken sandwich and i'm like ah it's like it's just didn't be quite as much honey mustard in the kale in the kale topping as you she's like you're crazy she's like it's great i'm like it's not as good as it usually is do you feel dave do you feel like

1:19:40Jon McLaughlin:there is some aspect of life where you are like this though? I mean, honestly, not that I can think of. Really? I think if I'm really healthy, I'm like me and the Lord are squared up. It's been a great morning. I will slow my life down enough to be like, hey, stop. Like I laugh with words. My normal lunch every day, if I'm writing by myself, which is not all the time, I will haphazardly make a sandwich that's either peanut butter and honey or peanut butter. And if We have some jam. There's no logic to how it's made. It's just, it's enough to be edible. And popcorn from Trader Joe's. And I love food.

1:20:20So it's not, because I really enjoy food. It's something I have to be careful of sometimes to like, you know, self-medicate. But I just don't, it's, I just, my, one of my biggest struggles in life, which is funny you said this, I just get so overwhelmed. This is something, this could be a whole other podcast, but something that Zanna has helped me understand. my daughter's helped me understand because she's so much like me i see her shut down when she gets overwhelmed yeah and i do that too and i think in a funny way the way it's is what i'm like i could grab screw just here's here's a right let's eat it you get to three options and i'm like that's too much time i'll shut down all the way and then i like won't like there's like no right decision the problem is is like this is where it manifests that it's bad it's like i stopped drinking normal coffee i drink decaf coffee but i feel so strongly that i'm not doing a good enough job making it that i will not make it really i won't if you're like if you said right now ben make me some coffee i'd be like i don't know how much of stuff to put in there and hillary is just like this is great and like if she makes it i'll drink it but i'm not like but the thing is i really like it yeah and any other normal person would be like you're pretty with it you could google this one time and probably figure it out and i'm always like i don't i don't it's not really good enough and so i just don't do it and if you were like how many scoops versus water i have no idea as a 39 year old who likes decaf coffee yeah and so if it's not going to be great i'm like i will not even touch it yeah and it's ridiculous because it's like one day of me trying really hard probably i'd feel comfortable doing it but because i'm like it's not going to be good enough i'm just like i'm not going to do it at all which is that's that's the curse part where it's just like dude like you need to get over that instead i'm just like nope i just don't make decaf coffee do you like it like yeah i love it yeah you can you want it yeah yeah i i would love that like you make the espresso i would love that but i would it would kill me because i'd be like oh like they didn't do the perfect pull and it was whatever and i'd just be like i'm never gonna

1:22:18Jon McLaughlin:do this again so see this is espresso is the maybe the one area of my life where i feel in lockstep with what you're describing yeah yeah that would be your answer i see like the extraction is not right on my uh i'll throw the whole bag away we get another bag but i think my thing is like i would just keep throwing it away and then i'd be like i hate this yeah yeah but it's taken me years to like with this machine i mean guys we are so in the weeds of this but this machine that we have it took me years of trying to make an espresso every morning whilst going to frothy and actually getting my espresso and then now i know like i can tell how it's coming out i need to adjust the grind size and all that.

1:22:58See, that's the persistence that I need because I get overwhelmed with like multi-step things that can go wrong. Me too, me too, me too. One of them goes not right. And I'm just like, I don't want to do this because it's not going to be right. Where I would probably be happier if I was willing with the coffee. Because part of me is like, I should get an espresso machine and I'll make decaf espresso. And it's just like, nope. Because I know that like the first time I get a bag of the espresso stuff ground and it's not ground right. I'm just like, oh, I don't know, dude. I'm just like, I never touched it again.

1:23:29That's the issue. Fascinating. You are a magical, wonderful unicorn of a man. Hey, thanks for coming in.

1:23:36Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, this is great. It's good to see you guys. I'll see you on the road. Yeah, see you in Cincinnati. Don't, don't, don't, don't. Deadville.

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