Beyond the Fourth Wall: The Power of the Vulnerable Parent

24:26I mean, we spend every Thursday working on this community, but the vast majority of our friendship has been over the phone. Some of that is because of how it started, but we have been friends now for almost a decade. And in that time, we probably have a cumulative number of days around like three or four months that we have

24:53Jon McLaughlin:not talked on the phone wow wow and you guys have a unique friendship in that it started with super deep conversations from the get-go right yeah the the analogy i use for that often is like imagine going to the beach and most of the time if going to the beach is like friendships most of the time you make friends, it's through work, it's through shared interests or whatever. You're playing volleyball at the beach. It's kind of surface level. And that's where most friendships start. And then you kind of learn who you're playing with, who feels like you have a connection with. And then you kind of wade out into the waters a little bit and see who is able to get deeper and then maybe you have somebody that you can go deep sea fishing with.

25:48But when you meet somebody in 12-step recovery, you just sort of like, they take you out on a boat in the middle of the ocean and they just throw you, they tie an anchor at your ankle and then throw you at the very bottom and that's where you start. So you start in, it's been sort of like opposite for us because we started so deep. It's something we talk about often actually because of the way our relationship started, it's made us have a little bit of an unfair expectation of how the rest of our friendships should be. Yeah, that's a good point. And not like you only need, there's some research around how many people you actually need in your inner, innermost circle.

26:30And I have friends that I would also call my best friends, but they don't know parts of my story that Jamie knows or they're not the first person I call. But we still have a very rich relationship. But it's the whole spectrum where I was more like you, Dave, growing up where I had lots of friends, very extroverted, lots of connections, but there wasn't much depth to those. And so now I'm trying to figure out in my 30s how to maintain the depth and also be okay with some of the surface because that's not all bad either.

27:06Jon McLaughlin:it's good actually yeah it's very good yeah what do you guys think that it is that i mean i don't know i'm no expert here but you know young girls and young boys there seems to be no difference socially like in general like it's not like little boys are our islands lone wolves out there and then the girls are social why is it that when we get into our 40s our 30s our 40s it is so rare on the whole for men to have tons of friends and like a vibrant social life i mean you know like you you mentioned like well we're just busy we're dads we have but you know my wife has just as many kids as I do. I'm pretty sure.

27:56Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure. I was going to say, maybe just double check. I do need to fact check that. Jason, just earmark that. We'll go back to that. But I wonder what... I mean, that's maybe like an oversimplified kind of question. It's so baked into just reality that sometimes you don't even stop to think about it. But I wonder what is the reason for that? But I mean, I can speak from only anecdotal working with men evidence, not like I have not read any of the studies on that. But I do think it gets back to what I was talking about before with needs, because when you are a kid, you have a lot of proximity friendships.

28:42If you think back to boys and girls when they are kids, many of their friendships are from school. They're from the neighborhood. their proximity-based friendships that are not really that intentional. In fact, they lack so much intention, that's why the casual insults or ways that they make each other angry don't hurt so bad because there's a lot less meaning put on the value of the relationship itself. You get older, and I think that men do, whether this is a culture thing, whether this is like the way that your family treats this, how you saw your dad have friendships, but I think that men are less in tune with what they need and therefore misattribute their needs to other things.

29:35And so we run out of proximity. That dwindles. And I think that has gotten worse year over year if you look at like you can read anything about social media and you're like okay this is part of where proximity started to go away because we have this pseudo relationship that makes us feel like we have proximity and so we devalue the need for real proximity even more yeah but what it requires is us as men to recognize i'm sad because i miss my friends and then to then take that and move it from the self-awareness of I'm sad to the self-regulation of I'm choosing intentionality. I'm picking up the phone and I'm calling one of my friends because friendships don't happen to you.

30:23They did when you were a kid, but friendships as an adult are things that you choose. Yeah, and I heard somebody say it on a podcast recently, like you can't, the grass is not greener on the other side. The grass is greener where you water it. I said that was episode 27. I can't remember. It was. We couldn't remember how many you had. I think it was John. Gosh. He started it. I finished it. Right. I listened to the episode. Yeah. And so I think that's some, I know for me, I'll say specifically for me, I think back about my friendships when I was a kid. The vast majority of them I could walk to their house.

31:02Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. And now my best friend is a 35 minute drive from me. and so if if i want to be intentional i either have to find a different way which is why we have such a phone call based relationship and i have to make intentional space to to play like our phone calls set the safety for our play to be really sacred and filling when when we get to have it yeah that's a great way to say that yeah you know it's funny i i remember talking to a therapist once and he said it was kind of a hot take by him but he was like i actually think women are worse friends than men are and so i think to kind of your point john like when he said that it really was interesting and he really believes this really and he has all this data that he would and he's a therapist so he's like i mean with a lot of women and i'm telling you i think they may be worse than men are i think that i think what i like that and in a lot of ways one because i think it infers that humans are all just kind of the same in some ways in that way i mean obviously we're very different as men as women and as men and women but it infers like this inherent loneliness we all deal with and i think it's a little like it's a little um i don't know what you'd call it like 20th century or something to kind of be like you know well women are these interconnected communities of people who are very vulnerable and know each other's needs and then men are cavemen who get scared by the light and, you know, and run back in and the minute, you know, and I remember when he said that, I was explaining that he's like, well, I just think like women look like they're connected, but information is King.

32:41So it's not vulnerability is King. So it's like, they're just trying to know like what's going on. Okay. I know that, but, but he's like, I don't think that that means they're actually sharing their heart. They just know that's happening with them. and they're kind of struggling with this and they may have a divorce. And so at first you think, man, you know all this stuff about everything, but information isn't vulnerability. I mean, some of it is, but not all of it. And so I think to your point, John, it's an interesting thing to think about that women struggle with that as much as we do. It just looks very different because I think you could probably poll a lot of women and say, how many of those do you know and know you?

33:18I think we might be surprised that it may be closer to what a man feels than we think. and so I think like it's kind of the great bait and switch I think of of our of the time we live in is that there's this kind of like women are so under connected and whatever and I'm like I don't know man I just wonder if we really sat with women that we knew and said hey not how many friends you have or how many coffees you're having a week whatever that would look like in your communal sense but like do you feel like these women know you like do they know the three percent yeah and I don't know I just I wouldn't you know and some people do it really well I mean men and women you know, and that they're obviously the exceptions, but it's an interesting thing to think about because, you know, I, it encourages me in a weird way because I'm like, Oh, I'm not some guy that's just plotting through my life, looking to the side and all these people are like, Oh, we're just, we know everything about it.

34:07You know, we're just like, but, but instead that I think it's an inherent problem just for humans, just to know how to connect and not be alone. And what does that look like in connectivity? And obviously that's going to be different with men and women, but, um, it's just as important for both and i think both struggle with it you know inherently just to be human is to do that you know and oddly enough that's the reason why the little clip that came up in microsoft word that would talk to you scared me to death really that was your grandfather yes his voice

34:36Jon McLaughlin:you know speaking of yeah dave when we started this podcast i thought i was just going to be plugging a mic and talk you know john i'm gonna go i did too but then suddenly tell them what we deal with well then we had logos we had uploads we had scheduling clips yeah i mean it was overwhelming yeah we needed some type of magical assistance john oh shopify something like shopify would have been amazing to have at the start yeah shopify is basically your built-in business partner or something called business partner business it powers millions of businesses i'm so excited to say that word i jumped ahead millions of businesses huge brands to people just getting started you And it puts everything in one place.

35:17Jon McLaughlin:Not inventory. Not two, not three. Not two, not three places. Just one place. You got your inventory. You got your payments. Your analytics. So you're not duct taping together like five different apps. No. Plus they've got AI tools that help write product descriptions, fix up your photos. Which would have saved us a few. We did. That early ideas. I don't love that. And when it's time to grow, you have email and social tools. Also, Dave, surprised you didn't mention this. 24-7 support. Wow. So when you hit that wall at midnight. That's almost all day every day. You're not just spiraling alone. You just spiraled from my great joke, which may have happened.

35:49Listen, if I'm being honest with you, I've hit the wall once or twice before. That's right. I don't want to talk about it too much. So guys, listen, see less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and the ShopPay button. Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash Dadville. Go to Shopify.com slash Dadville. That's one more time. Shopify.com slash Dadville.

36:21Anyway, everyone was backstage. No way. The entire cast of Disney. Yeah. Wow.

36:28Jon McLaughlin:Anyway, speaking of production, Dave, I feel like improving your sleep has somehow become this whole production. Like new mattress, blackout curtains, supplements, tracking your REM cycles. It's exhausting just thinking about it. It makes me want to sleep, ironically. Yeah. Can I tell you what's interesting? It turns into a full lifestyle change, John. Oh, right. You know, and funny thing is, I realized the issue for me wasn't any of that, Dave. It was just my bedding. Okay. My sheets were worn out. Like I pound those things. Corners popping off, you know, pillows kind of flat. And I didn't even notice how much it was affecting my sleep.

37:04You know, just like the Fantastic Four, that's the thing. Most people don't need a whole new system, John. They just need better stuff on their bed. Exactly.

37:11Jon McLaughlin:And that's why we upgraded to bowl and branch. I knew you knew that I was going to say. Now I want to be clear, not you and I. No. We corporately, yeah, we corporately, but definitely not. It's wild how big of a difference it made immediately. They make everything too. Everything, John, not just sheets. Their signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, comforters. It's all designed to be super soft, breathable, and actually work together. Just like us. Yeah. You know, we started with the signature sheets. and the first night I got into bed, I knew this is different. This is soft. This is cooler.

37:44Jon McLaughlin:Just more comfortable overall. Though they didn't come with a signature and that I want to be clear. Right. No, no, no. It's their signature sheets. You're not going to get a Michael Jones. We can't be more clear on that. And the sheets, they get you know what? Just like me, John, which I don't like, they get softer over time. You know what? I'm trying to, but to quote Mercy I can't imagine sleep without Bowling Branch right now. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15 % off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com slash dadville with code dadville. That's Bowlin Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash dadville, code dadville to unlock 15 % off.

38:24Jon McLaughlin:Exclusions apply.

38:29Can we hear y 'all's take on... Yeah, I was gonna say, this is a shared podcast. Yeah, like why you think relationship, I mean, you're like years ahead of us. And so there's a lot of wisdom to be gained. But like for real, like you as dads, how have you seen your relationships change? You were saying you felt it dwindle. And why do you make up that that is? I mean I feel like what I've noticed is two things are shots to the bow of a man's relational life I think with other men the first is your marriage because you know you kind of go man me and this dude, we are locked in. We are, we know each other.

39:21And then, you know, you start dating somebody and he's like, go. No, she's cool, man. And it's like, you love her and she's great. And it's what God wants. But, you know, maybe it's just a little tricky for that friend or vice versa. You know, you're like, your bro is like, you got to meet this girl. And you're like she's she's cool you know and so immediately there's distance there one because then you here you have a partner that is taking some of that too and so that energy gets split but also because now she's informing thoughts you have and she's making you maybe changing positions on things that you guys were like no man and it's like i don't know man you know she has a good point you're like she needs to get the heck out of here you know so i think one is marriages and and and then a lot of times it can be helpful so it's not always bad at all but i think it's it's just kind of like a way it gets divided and then i think kids to me are like you know because i had a friend of mine who's one of my wisest friends tell me this he's like man marriage and kids is going to be with you and your friends it's going to be the hard thing because ideologies come into view that there's no way to know without them and none of them are bad or good or whatever you just choose to do a thing and then they don't choose to do a thing.

40:38And it can be that you guys are in agreement on everything, but you guys are going to this school or church and they're going to this. And then before you know it, you just don't see them as much. So it's not enmity. It's not, but you're just like, yeah, we're just not running in the same. So I think those, I think those things on just a bottom level without even getting deep or whatever, or just like logistical, societal things that happen that you kind of look up and can go you know man i love that guy like he's like we have tons of memories i just don't see him as much there's no reason that i don't like him or i don't choose to be with him it's just he's not my purview as much because of these things you know um which i think really complicated how old are y 'all's kids so dave has

41:24Jon McLaughlin:three you said that in the beginning and i have two and they stair-step perfectly from 14 14 13 yeah all the way down to nine oh fun and you've been friends how long uh 25 years yeah okay so how like how has your friendship changed over the years you know it's funny i was gonna say just as a side note that last thing you were saying dave one sort of little side note that i think about sometimes is you know I'm 43 and time is literally just moving differently than it did when I was 23 and I remember being like 13 and and I remember my dad talking about this like I remember him talking about how time is different for him than it is for me when I was a kid and now I feel it in real time so it's like you can have a buddy that you run into like i had coffee with a friend of mine the other day who i love this guy and we text and we you know comment on each other's instagram posts and stuff like that i haven't had coffee with him in literally years like pre-covid but it doesn't feel that way partially because time is going so fast so it's like if I hang out with somebody like three times a year it's like I see him all the time but when I was like in my 20s if I saw him three times a year it'd be like we don't we never knew guys even friends it's just so wild how that's so different yeah that's an interesting point I mean Dave Dave and I's friendship a huge part of it obviously is music that's how we met and that really like you know we do this podcast together now which just brings it to another level but we have you know somewhat stayed in the same orbit even before the podcast just because of music you know yeah uh and for the first what was that for the first like 12 years or so 13 years we didn't live in the same state let alone the same you know street so i mean that's kind of been like a cheat code for us it keeps us connected because of music but you know to your point i i think like you know i've talked to people and it's rare but every now and i'll talk to someone who they decide to live next near yeah and they'll make a decision where they're like you know i talked to somebody about this like last month and it was an older guy it was like i think they were empty nesters and he was like you know we just decided like we wanted to live in this side of town with our friends because that's where they live and it's not somewhere we would have chosen but we just really the friendship matters and so we could and we did and so i think there's also a piece that you know i the season of life ran fascinates me because you make these decisions we all make these decisions that are particular to this season which is great and but sometimes can be challenging because you can kind of i think you can kind of look up after the kids are out of the house or something and kind of realize like, oh man, like I didn't sort of game this out maybe like I thought.

44:40And now, you know, we're kind of in this place that we didn't really think about being empty nesters here or, you know, the house is three times bigger than we need it to be, you know, or whatever those things are. And so I think to your point about intent, it's such a compelling thing to me to go, you know, how do we make decisions with our life that really do, that are in order with our desires, like our deep desires, not just our, you know, whatever those would be with logistical or whatever, but really like where our friends, I mean, that was, when Annie and I decided to stay in our house, you know, we had kind of our 10-year sit down because Annie had kind of said, hey, after we're there for about a decade, I think I want to move to this other part of town where the yard's a little bigger and we can be further from John.

45:26And so, and that was her words. I thought I was surprised by that. really vulnerable it was yeah her three percent she didn't say which john i do want to say that

45:33Jon McLaughlin:that's fair yeah she was looking at me though and she did mouth mclaughlin yeah she was like but it was funny to sit down and talk about that a couple years ago because we kind of had our state of the union and we both really came to the place where like look you know the mclaughlins are across the street the candroses are up the hill we have i mean there's just a lot of people who live really close and it's not that we wanted to move anyway but that really mattered I think we were like we get so much value from the time we get to see our friends and knowing that it's just as easy that John walks outside and then I walk over there because I'm like hey you know like that's that is unbelievably valuable to us and so I think it really it was it was fun to realize I was like, oh man, that is a compelling thing to stay where we are.

46:26And to really know that we're in this season where people are just physically close to us. And then I see them more because of that. I do interact with them more because of that. And so it takes one thing off the table of going another piece of intent. Be like, okay, it's that. And then we got to make sure. And then it's like, oh, that one I don't have to worry about because I'm just going to see them. So now it's about when I see them, can we have connective conversations and be really in relationship together? It's so foundationally intentional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That it's like you intended to create proximity.

46:58Now you don't have to be intentional to create that with regularity. Right. Cause that already happens. Right. That's so great. Right. How do y 'all like, how do you guys try to, when you think of men that are struggling with loneliness, you know, that sit and really say like, you know, whether they know that or you can help them realize that, um, how do y 'all, where do you go from there? Like, what does it look like? What are the steps y 'all give them to kind of feel integrated into relationships or to sort of help that? You're looking at me. I was just talking a bunch, I feel like. I didn't know if you were looking at me like you're like, say the thing.

47:34It felt like you were like, tell them the one thing. Do the thing that you do. Drop it. I just want to hear your thoughts. I personally think that we overcomplicate it sometimes. sometimes like the thing that i learned about loneliness for me that was most impactful is that it's not the absence of relationships wow it's the the quality of them that's good like i mentioned earlier like i had lots of friends and relationships or even in my marriage like i can feel lonely with my wife yeah yeah i can feel lonely with jamie if he's if i can like tell that he's not being fully honest with me. Like I can feel lonely with someone.

48:16And so like we are therapists in a pretty unique area of the, of the country. And there is like a lot of my clients, not everybody, uh, but, but most of my clients would say they have at least a couple peer relationships, like outside of their, outside of their partner or their spouse, they have a couple relationships, be it somebody from work or again, like a shared interest where they play pick a basketball with or somebody they do music with like whatever they have the connection and and then they'll come into my office and talk about like how or eventually explore and find out like how lonely they're feeling or and then i'll be curious with them about like who knows about this like who else other than me are you processing this with and it's like well nobody that's why i come to you right it's like well that's good and this is a good place to start but this every week or every other week is is only going to do so much like you need you deserve for other people to be walking through this with you and so like i share this story i've shared it multiple times because i've gotten consent from this client to share it without giving away any details i've seen this guy this is an example to this is how i would answer your question i've seen this guy who maybe was in his mid to late 40s.

49:39I've been working with him for a year and a half maybe. And he was in just a really rough place personally in his marriage. And he was going on this fishing trip with a bunch of his buddies from college. Every year they would go to some beautiful place in the country and go fly fishing. 12 guys. And they've done this every year since college. So for a couple decades. And he like knew about the 3 % concept and he had used it some in session and it was starting to help him be more honest about his story. And so I was just kind of like asking him how he feels about going on this trip and how he feels about like letting these guys in.

50:18And it was sort of, his response was sort of like, oh, I'm not going to, I got to do that. Again, it's kind of like, this is why I see you. And so there was a lot of gentle encouragement for me of like, why don't you just try like it vulnerability breeds vulnerability it usually just takes one person and he went on this trip ended up getting the courage to to share what was really going on with him and to his surprise not to mine yeah but to his surprise there was like six or seven other guys that opened up about stuff that they were going through and he came back and he was like it was the best trip that we've ever had and we caught no fish it was the worst fishing trip we've ever had yeah but the conversations were so rich and he was like if i didn't share anything i probably would have it would have been like every other year where we would have gone and had fun and talked about you know sports weather news and then and work and then we would have left and they wouldn't have really known each other so there it kind of depends on like again it's a little bit individualistic which is such a therapist answer but if you're somebody who doesn't have the luxury of having those at least one or two peer relationships there's like places and things that you can do to to foster those but a lot of us i would maybe imagine that a lot of people listening do have at least one or two but there's just like a great fear of kind of going back to even the beginning when we were talking about the three percent idea is there's just like a great fear of what will happen if i go like for this guy we've never done we've never had these kind of conversations really in 20 years so if i lead with this like i don't have i don't have any idea how it's going to be responded and we had to work through that like i wasn't telling him that it was for sure going to be great like they could you could leave and feel like really you could feel even more lonely because you opened up your heart and it wasn't received but i was like there's 12 guys and I know the odds of somebody else is struggling.

52:22It's so crazy

52:23Jon McLaughlin:the stories that we tell ourselves that like if you would frame that guy's situation, which I've been in that situation, so it's like, okay, these are your college friends. You guys have been friends for 20 plus years, so much so that you make it a point that you fly someplace every year to be together. You take time off water. And yet he felt like, well, these 12 guys who love me enough to have maintained this friendship would, if I told them X, would what? I don't know. But that's such a common story that we tell ourselves. And it's so often with the people who love us the most. You know, like when you were talking about the Gabor Monte thing that he said, what's so tragic about that?

53:19Jon McLaughlin:Me thinking about my two daughters feeling that about me and my wife. And it's like, girls, you will. And of course, we say this to them, just as my parents said this to me. You can do anything. There's nothing you could do that would change my love for you. There's nothing you could say. There's nothing you could do. You can literally tell us anything, but we just, I don't know. We don't believe it. We tell ourselves these stories. It's so tragically common, you know? I mean, John has heard me say this a thousand billion times, but one of my favorite quotes, and I don't know who said it, but God told me years ago was, anytime we come together sharing our strengths, it breeds competition.

54:05Anytime we come together sharing our weaknesses, it breeds community. and I think like the thing that I found years ago and it's so encouraging is that it became this really weird game with me then of like, if I had a friendship that I was just like, this is just not clicking. I'd be like, Oh, I'll just share something vulnerable. I'll be like, you know, and it was like, just like, um, and you know, every now and then it'd be like somebody didn't know well and they're like, well, sucks for you. I'm going to get out of here. And you're like, okay, well that was, um, I only hang with winners. or they just start giving you unsolicited advice oh bro that's yeah whatever the thing is yeah but but what i found and and i and i've told people this too to encourage them is like you know and it's really funny it's like it's a it's it really is i think maybe the greatest life hack for this thing is if you find yourself in a conversation with someone you're trying to connect with it's not just be vulnerable and and it's i mean 90 of the time for me it's like they'll go dude and then it's like all of a sudden it's like the whole thing shifts and there's this communication that's made and it's beautiful in the connection and so i think to your point and what you're just saying too john is it's it's it's so powerful and i would also add that i think the more you do it that the more comfortable you are with it and so you know where you would think it's more terrifying but it's actually not it's like because i think then you really can understand that man this is i'm not weird and having this struggle two it's man it tends to really unite me to my friends and three i'm less i'm less shameful for it the more i talk about it and so it's a really cool it it really that quote changed my life probably 20 years ago because um it just sort of gave me this way to navigate that helped me connect more with people and then sometimes give them permission to connect more too.

56:07And so now, you know, and he'll grab me. I think Wirtz is maybe the greatest at this in the world. He's so gifted with this. But Andy, every now and then, will grab me and be like, that feels like maybe a little too much for a dinner party. I'm like, okay. You know, but I think that only comes from this thing of being in practice of that. And, I mean, it needs to be appropriate. Lord knows. That's not what I'm saying. but there is this way to be in the world that is really powerful because it takes the shame away. It really does. It's like when you hear enough people relate to something, you realize like, oh, this is, why was I so?

56:43Then I don't mind talking about that more now because I'm not the only person.

56:47Jon McLaughlin:The story you were telling yourself seems so ridiculous. Yeah, it's this. There's even a saying they have in 12-step that is what we feel on the inside doesn't match what we see on the outside of other people. And so that's like the story we're telling ourselves. I believe that I'm the only one who feels it because I'm looking at your exterior. Yeah. Which is why the loneliness thing gets harder and harder the more that social media is bigger and bigger. Right. Because we see the curated outside of others only. And that breeds an even deeper loneliness and desire for isolation. And so to your point, it does get easier and easier.

57:20I would be a case study in that. I was like 0 % honest with people. I curated everything. But that gets at like a longer form, like my story of big trauma, everything had to be curated to be safe. And so then coming out of that, it was like I didn't stop doing that. I just curated it differently to make other people think that I was doing well after this thing so they didn't look at me differently. When you know what's so interesting about that that sort of is baked into being a parent is, and John and I talk about this all the time, and it's something we are in so much agreement around is that apologizing to your kids is just such a big deal.

58:02And to your point, Jamie, about... So then you would think, like, what does that look like as a parent? And, well, then you need to be very careful because it's wildly inappropriate to share lots of things with your kids until they're a certain age because it just rocks. You know, it's not... They're like, I don't know how to think about this. Yes. Are we going to run out of money, Daddy? Yeah. It's been a slow month, son. That's why he's crying. What do you mean slow month, Daddy? Do I need to go back to the mines? But, you know, I think the way we actually do that with our kids is that it's probably the most profound thing for a long time is just to ask for their forgiveness.

58:37Ask them to forgive you. Ask for that. Well, that was a 40. It's sadly true. But, you know, it's like that's like the. Would you ask me? Come back in here. Ask me for forgiveness. Come back in here. but it is such a great way it's such a great way to engage that to your point because it kills a paradigm that the parents are alpha never making mistakes but it also introduces this posture it introduces this truth to them that man dad messes up and when he does he tells me so he's not impenetrable now he's still dad and he's still I love him and I respect him and those things but it just sort of kills that weird fourth wall or whatever of like, hey, son, like get it together because I got it together.

59:28Daughter, whatever it is.

59:29Jon McLaughlin:And when you don't have it together, you don't have to cover it up in my presence. That's right. Yeah, I feel like with social media, the sort of accounts that show, and I should say I'm guilty of doing it as well. you know you take some perfectly curated shot or you you take the best shot of the year and put it up as like oh this is just me as a dad this is you know i'm like guys anytime some other parent shares some fail i'm like thank you thank you especially in the parenting realm i'm like we that's encouraging you know like so yeah we had our mutual friend david thomas on oh man he's amazing yeah the mayor of dadville that's right and he said something that i will never forget because he's somebody we asked him about this like he's somebody who is like from the outside looking in a great dad and we he told us that i think he said his kid he invited his kids out for lunch or coffee.

1:00:46It's been a long week, okay? It's breaking down already. It's been a long week. Do you hear my voice?

1:00:56We've been to the pediatrician three times last week, okay? So it's been a week. I do not miss those days. Whatever he said, it was really good. Essentially that he like invited his adult kids to lunch and because it was what you were talking about, like the forgiveness piece. Yeah. and like invited his kids whenever they felt ready to talk to him about what he missed not like what he did wrong story that he still missed them yeah and i was like if my if either of my parents ever had to like that would be such a gift and i think one of the real potential like downfalls of parenting today when we have so much information of how to like raise securely attached kids and be be like emotionally attuned parents like we have so much information of how to do that well that generations before us didn't have the temptation is to think that we're gonna of like do it so well and maybe we even will do it more well than generations before us but but like to our kids it doesn't matter because it's just their experience that's right it's not in comparison to something else yeah it's just theirs they're still going to be missed and they're still going to feel alone and and they still wouldn't trade you for anybody else yeah even if you miss them or they feel alone yeah well and you know too i think there's there's different iterations of that because I think like you know you you you think about like so let's say you're 25 and a single guy and you're like man I'm kind of like I've lived you know four years out of college or whatever whatever your experience is but like I've got some road you know I've got some road miles on me now hey dad like you know I've noticed it's like I really struggle this thing and he's like oh man you know like I'm so sorry and you know sorry that and whatever right well then you get married and boy I always tell people this is the weirdest analogy but I love it so I always say it but it's like you know when you get you probably heard me say this when you get married it's like you you bring someone into the family room and you and they're like and you're like that's the barnes family tapestry and they're like whoa what's the what's the dragon eating the baby and you're like oh that's the dragon eating baby and they're like uh why is that tree on fire and it's got puppies in it.

1:03:16Like, that's the fire tree, puppy tree, fire tree. And they're like, and then you start going, why is that up there? But it's just something you've seen all your life. So you're like, that's our tapestry. And so then you have that second conversation where you're like, man, my wife has brought up some really interesting things that I didn't know without someone else that's close to me saying these are things. And then you have kids. And that's another round, which I actually think is actually more gracious than the first two. because then you go, man, dad, I probably, I probably came in a little hot with some things I didn't know at the time.

1:03:51Now having done this, you know, that wasn't quite as bad as I thought it was or whatever. And so you kind of have these, you know, Ebenezer moments in your life where you're interacting with your parents or your kids are going to interact with you. And I think it's just every, every time of those is a chance to then go, you know, okay, let's talk, you know, sort of more about what that looks like and to be gracious in those seasons, but you don't really ever get away from it. I think that's what's so funny. My experience of growing and even changing my relationship or like how I address my relationship with my family, what you're saying is so true because I like come out of this story of some bigger T trauma, do some work on that, have a lot of anger come out about like being missed in my family system do more work on that and get to the point now as a dad where i go okay like there's a big difference between intentionally malicious and unintentionally not caring well that's really well yeah yeah and it really opens the door for a lot of i've told blake this i think there are stories where it's maybe it's not intentionally malicious but there's a but it's still neglectful and like in my story where it's like that was maybe not intentionally caring and it could be felt as malicious but it's not.

1:05:20Yeah. And so I want to honor the people who like there are stories where you were it was malicious. Yeah. That wasn't mine but I experienced mine that way and I had to grow into feeling like oh my expectation of you was wrong and how I interpreted that was a yes and of like, it was really hurtful and you didn't mean to do that. Yeah. And it opens up that ability to have an apology, but it also showed me the real value of parents apologizing to their kids. I love that you brought that up. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the biggest gift that a parent can give their kid is a, a humble and appropriate apology.

1:06:01Oh yeah. Yeah.

1:06:02Jon McLaughlin:Well then I am. I was going to say you have not met better parents. than me and John. Yeah, it's a, I sort of love and hate that my kids are so used to Annie and I doing that, but it is so important. And I think, you know, they're like, hey, Dad, you haven't apologized for anything today. Everything okay? What are you not telling us? Dad, gumming. Okay, come here. When they are like, well, you need to apologize. I'm like, that's not how it works. Yeah, yeah. I determine when an apology. Now that said, I did want to bring something up. I apologize that I taught you that.

1:06:37That was a misstep.

1:06:38Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something really, I think God is very kind to me and I would assume maybe some other people feel this way, but, but it has been, parenting has really given me so much more perspective on my parents, you know? And I think while I don't really love the phrase someday you'll see or you'll understand someday it's a trigger for me. Same. It's true. It really is. And I mean, I think. Well, that's what hurts the most about it is that you don't like it and it's true. Yeah. It's true, but oftentimes it's, at least in my experience, it can be used as like a minimization of your experience.

1:07:15Yeah. You just don't get it yet. But you understand sometimes why people say that because it's true. And it's like, I could say that to my kids about things. And we've said that to them, you know, where they'll be like, look, bud, you'll know someday. And so it is kind of a grace, I think, to have kids and then be able to. And I've had friends of mine who've really had hard relationships with their parents. and they've said like man having my own kids gave me so much more grace for yeah and i think this is true this is something that micah and i talked about years ago before we were even married much less kids but i do think for the most part every parent is doing the best they know to do now the problem is what they know can be really bad and so the bar can be really low because their experience was so bad and so i think with that grace you kind of realize that as a parent because i mean to be doing phenomenal things with now the execution of said things.

1:08:07And so that's the grace that my kids are going to have to give me is just knowing that even now there's things that I've just missed on that they're going to have to not have to, I hope that they will have the grace to say, you know, that's the thing. John and I talk about this. I think, I think I say this probably too much, but that's why I think intent is so important. I think that my kids know what I intend, whether I do it or not. And I know that sounds like a sort of a fail switch, but I think if they know that my heart toward them is right, my ability to pull off what I mean to do, there's a little more grace for it.

1:08:42Because I think they can go, well, Dad, we know you love us. Look, you botched that so badly, or you totally missed me on that. But I know your heart. Like, it's not to – it's kind of what you're saying, Jamie. It's not to – if anything, it's just neglect in a way you didn't mean to. but I know and that's that's such an important thing for me with my kids that they know my heart I really want them to see that yeah how do they know your hearts yeah it's a good question I as

1:09:07Jon McLaughlin:you're saying that I'm like is it sort of this I don't know what the analogy is but like it feels like this sort of like balance it's like a scale where it's like well when you're lacking in in like the experiential reality the intent can save you but the intent only gets you know weighted up with experiential stuff yeah that's a great you know what i mean yeah so it's sort of like you can borrow from one when one's low but you got to fill that one yeah that's that's a really good way to put that yeah that'll be in the dadville book yeah that'll be probably on the back cover can i ask you guys something before we wrap up and we can cut this if you want but i always think about this anytime i'm chatting with a therapist buckle up do you are you ever just like a couple things are you ever have we sitting there listening analyzing you this whole time yes well there's that you've got to be i'll bill you later yeah please yeah we'll write y 'all a song if y 'all would just send us what you think of us.

1:10:14Jon McLaughlin:That is like, you couldn't escape it. You would have to be analyzing people all the time, I would imagine. But are you ever sitting there and, like, you know when you're driving sometimes and all of a sudden you're like, wait, I haven't been paying attention for the last half mile. Oh, I... Like you ever, somebody's, you know, talking and you're like, oh, they're about to wrap up their sentence and I was just thinking about where I'm getting lunch or something like that. Or you're listening to them, but you're like, I honestly have no idea what to say to them. That's what I'd be most scared of.

1:10:48That's what I'm most scared of because I feel like that's what I would,

1:10:51Jon McLaughlin:I'd be like, I need to take a walk. Have you thought of going to a therapist? I have great recommendations. I saw a great meme one time that was like, you're the therapist and you're hearing your client and you're thinking, gosh, they really need to see a therapist. And then you realize that it's you. That would be my nightmare. I definitely... Not for me. I'll let Jamie speak. I'm amazing. It completely depends on my energy level for the first question. Yeah, yeah. So now having young kids, I have to be really careful about... It changed the way that I do my sessions. Before, I was someone who took maybe a little bit too much pride in not using a notebook when I met with clients.

1:11:45I would just remember everything they said. That felt like, I used to be like, it just feels like this gift that I have that when I'm that focused in on somebody, it kind of sticks. Then I was up four times a night for the last five years. They're like, I'm sorry, Jamie, you're drooling. I'm sorry, yes, no, I'm sorry. Oh my gosh. Were your eyes just closed? I was praying for you while you talked. That's actually a spiritual integration practice. Sorry, Bill. It's Bob. Sure, Bob. Whatever. So now I combat that by taking notes. And when I am, that keeps me pretty much mentally engaged. Yeah, that's good.

1:12:34And yeah, go ahead. For the second question, yes. yes I definitely don't know what to say at times many times and I wrote about this recently actually I think we're seeing a lot of people rely more and more on AI as like a suedo therapist chat GPT and there are elements of it that can be helpful but you combine it with like the loneliness epidemic that we've been talking about and you combine it with this thing that is, I mean, we were listening to your dad GPT and I think you said, you were like, it's scary how good it is and how accurate it is. I would not ever use it. Go ahead. Yeah. And so like people are getting these, like asking these questions about their relationship or their internal world or whatever and getting these like really smart, pretty accurate, specific answers that are like overly affirming, not challenging.

1:13:38unless you ask it to challenge you and then it still is like that's so great of you to ask to be challenged. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There is, there is, I'm not necessarily worried about like AI taking my job because I think there is the imperfectness of the human relationship even therapeutically. Like there's so much growth and change that can happen there of a situation of like, yeah, I actually don't know. I don't know what to say right now. Let's explore what that's like for both of us rather than getting the answer that you want every single time.

1:14:17Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, yeah, yeah. The way that my supervisor in grad school said it was that content is sexy, but it's a trap. Wow. So every time, exactly what Blake just did is called engaging the process. And so anytime somebody is saying something and I'm thinking so much about how I can say the perfect thing in response to them, then I've gotten trapped. It means that I'm missing, that I'm getting caught in their internal dialogue or their personal drama cycle, and I actually need to draw attention to the cycle and not try to fix the content of that cycle. And so most of the time, being a therapist is so much less about having the right thing to say and more about being able to continually pull back to the framing of the whole process.

1:15:08That's good. It's kind of true of like social media too. The content is sexy. I was like, isn't that Instagram? Yeah. Content's Instagram.

1:15:17Jon McLaughlin:It's fascinating to me what you guys do. Yeah. It's fascinating to me too. I mean, it's an unbelievable level. Thank you all for hanging. Yeah. Thanks for having us. This is so fun. Thanks for coming by. The super power pod. I know. I know. It is fun. And again, do send the write up. Don't have it be chat TBT, by the way. I really want it to be y 'all on the way. And don't include me. Just say John. Just kind of say what you feel like John can work on. That's great. We'll do that first. I've got notes.

1:15:53Jon McLaughlin:Are you really buying a car online on AutoTrader right now? Really? At a playground? Yeah, really. Look at these listings from dealers. Wow. Your search can really get that specific. Really? And you just put in your info and boom, cars in your budget. Mom needs a second, honey. You can really have it delivered? Really. Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car. Mommy, look. Uh, I think your kid is walking up the slide. Kyle, again? Really? Auto Trader. Buy your car online. Really?