Dann Huff: White-Knuckle Sessions

24:54John, to improve your sleep, it's not complicated. No, it's simple.

24:58Jon McLaughlin:Most people just need better sheets on their bed. Exactly. You know what? That's why we upgraded to Bull and Branch. And it's amazing how quickly we notice a difference. Dave, literally overnight. Just to be clear, not me and you, us and our wives. Oh, I don't know. I was sleeping so deep, I didn't know who was in that bed. Listen, John, they make everything, too. Not just sheets. It's organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, comforters. It's all designed to be super soft, breathable, and actually work together. And the sheets actually get softer over time. I have more to say, John. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch.

25:30Get 15 % off your first order, plus free shipping. Where, John? BowlinBranch.com slash Dadville with code Dadville.

25:38Jon McLaughlin:That's BowlinBranch.com. That's B-O-L-L-A-N-D Branch.com slash Dadville. Code Dadville to unlock. 15 % off. Exclusions apply.

25:52that account that I just brought up for those who listen, don't know is a really cool account because it's a guitar effects company. Yeah. And what they've done, I love this so much when people do this and I love, I follow these guys and it's the coolest thing is they get Dan and other successful players and they'll go back in the studio and mute their part and then have the players play along to those songs, the same parts you can see what they're playing and hear what they're doing. It's really, really cool. But what's so amazing about yours, and I can't imagine for younger generations that know you but don't know that context of you or know you in that context rather is that you know these aren't just like songs these are colossal songs so it's not just like oh here's some songs Dan played on pull them up and oh I kind of think I know that song I mean it's like these are like core memories core memory songs and so I just thought it was I was like I bet you there have been people that know you that that popped up in their timeline they went wait a second he played on that yeah and so it recontextualized you all of a sudden from like great producer who can obviously play to like whoa whoa whoa whoa i don't think i knew sort of first half of life dan you know it's got to be such a funny thing to deal with because you know that i mean you're good friends a lot of people but there's got to be sort of a generation that's seeing these that are guitar players going like oh my gosh i didn't well i'm in the class of yeah my parents listened to that because those are favorite music growing up yeah you know that's right and and here and the other caveat too i mean there's there's a re-obsession that i've noticed right re-obsession that's good that's a good one that's right yeah um with the 80s also yeah i thought that was dead and buried and and and remember i mean i i was i was only in my early 20s yeah it's crazy so my memory of it is is is a bit hazy and it was you know it was it was i was just glad to be in the room yeah you know and and it was it was kind of how much do you remember from your 20s?

27:42Oh, I know. I was in L.A. during what we call the cocaine years. No, not for me. I was too chicken to do drugs, which I don't know what that says about me. It was good that I didn't because I didn't have to go through all that. But so even without that accoutrement, I did not. I mean, I'm 20 years old and every day is a dream afresh. And you're just trying to hang on white knuckling and get called back for the next session. Yeah, totally.

28:19Jon McLaughlin:I mean, it's such a high pressure position to be the player. Like Dave and I, we're always the artist in the room. I mean, I've never been, maybe there have been a couple times where I have come in and I'm the player, but I'm not a player. Dave and I aren't like session musicians where we go in and we play. So we always sort of have this insulation around us that like, if we're playing on the record, what we're playing is what we're playing. We wrote the song, like, you know, but the player, I mean, these guys come in and it's like, whatever your instrument is, you are like a fire hose. you're expected to be a fire hose of ideas but not only ideas but like precision and flexibility and the clock is ticking and there's all kinds of you know egos in the room and that kind of thing and you're having to kind of you know balance like what's going on between the how's the artist feeling how's the producer feeling are they at odds are they at odds because of what you're playing and these situations that you were in at such a young age like what was that like to be in the room you say like you know you're just trying to do your thing and like get a call back like what is that what was that like early on where you're like i don't know how many shots you get at this like if it doesn't go well today maybe that you know maybe that's it what was that like you know i don't i honestly don't think i thought it out wow to that degree uh sherry and i have talked about this because i really haven't thought too much about that period of my life since we moved back to nashville and it was only a side note of that it it's only been in the last year sherry just said to me uh sherry is my wife by the way um uh quit being such a curmudgeon take some interviews do talk i just wouldn't i just and it wasn't on any kind of principle or higher horse that i was it just it's like that happened then and who's interested in the 80s well yeah i got that answer loud and clear yeah but we've talked about it since you know and and i've kind of put my my toes back into the water a little bit at least in revisiting that and i don't have total recall but but sherry made a comment the other night she said you know you we were probably number one so naive and i think that plays to your benefit in the fact that you You don't, you, I had a felt healthy respect for it, but I don't think I had an abject fear.

31:01Yeah. I didn't, it was, you're too young in life and you're, you know, you're, you're bulletproof to some degree. So I think there was a combination. I was aware, everything that you said, John, as far as, as far as you're only as good as your last session. But I had probably had my 10 ,000 hours. Oh, hours by then. And it was, you know, there was a massive amount of timing. I call it luck. Whatever you want to call it has to be there. But you have to have equal parts, if not more of the fluidity. You know, because that's the one thing that people don't talk about in session playing or ask. Like if I'm speaking to young musicians and they want to know the secrets as if there are any secrets.

31:49It's not, because usually you can see in their eyes when they'll hear something like, say, one of these records you guys have commented about. Well, heck, I can play that. Yes, technically you can play that. But the problem is you don't know where you started. And because the clock is ticking, to be fair, they were paying us extremely well. But you could have, let's say on Monday, you could go in there, your instincts, you plan a song, the, uh, the artist, producer, you know, whoever's kind of driving, you have to kind of also kind of learn that as you said, the dynamics. Yeah. And all your instincts would, it's like high fives at the end of the day, you'll be called back.

32:33This is great. This is a hit record, you know, all the cliche stuff. And then on Tuesday you're riding that wave, you know, yeah, I'm pretty good. You're patting yourself on the back. You get into the next situation and those instincts come, come, you know, It's like, oh, I'm going to watch this. And you play what you just know is going to be so perfect for the moment. And at worst, they're just apathetic. You know, there's no reaction. Or, you know, not at all. I don't really like that. The artist hates that. You know, whatever. Well, that's where you start learning what a session player is. Yeah, that's like where it starts.

33:10Because, number one, your ego has to really, really be under control. because it's not about you. There's a transaction. They paid you. Boy, I could use a really nasty metaphor. What is this show rated? It depends on where you want it to go. We follow you.

33:33Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, we're kind of at a fork in the road right now, I'm feeling like. You're paid to make somebody feel really good. Yes. We'll just leave it at that, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I grew up in the evangelical South, So I know there are boundaries here. But I do like prodding there for a number of reasons. But in essence, that's the transaction. And that's also, as an older musician or somebody that produces records, I've been in those situations. So when somebody starts pulling that on me, it's like, you know, you hate to pull the grandpa card, but, you know, no, no. That's not what you do. So, yes, you have to.

34:19Can you edit me down, by the way, on this podcast? No, we don't. It's great. You're doing great. We actually slow the guest voice down. Oh, God. I'm so freaking shaggy. We have to speed mine up. Vince Gill, I listened to him on your podcast. He is so perfect with his soundbite. Well, we did six recordings with him until we got it right. Yeah, and a lot of that was AI. I knew it. He is so overrated, isn't he? So here's what I want to ask you to point in. And here's the thing that I was thinking about. So, you know, in this season where you're playing on these records, like John said, that are just like these just humongoloid records, I'm sure there are some you're going in going, hey, this is a Michael Jackson song.

34:58I know exactly who this is. You know, whoever. I'm sure there's some where you're like, oh, it's like a new, like when you played on Whitney Houston's first record, right? Like, sure, there was some buzz, but, you know, there was no proof of concept there. You're just going like, hey, she sounds great singing. but especially knowing again all of this all of this being that you played on records that are just monster hits, global hits these records I mean singles but also records but you think about again like a prayer, a man in the mirror, whatever are you sitting in there in those moments because I just have this sort of glorified version of this because I know what they are now but are there times where you're sitting in the middle of these songs going my gosh this is a monster or is it kind of you're just doing you're like hey who knows we'll see you know is there some sense in that season because it was such a heyday back then in la that you're like man babe all these songs this week they were there just wait we'll hear them in a few months on the radio are you kind of like who knows probably probably the latter really yeah i mean i you know well you probably played on a lot of records that yeah yeah you're like this is a hit and then nothing happened yeah you know no true true words at that point i mean you know in the music business i mean the useful metaphor i love baseball and um if you hit lifetime 300 yeah 320 sure you're in the hall of fame right i mean yeah flop that around you you're you're hitting what minus 680 yeah so most of the things you do i mean if you're measuring them by the commercial metrics you're right it's it's all failures i mean i thought some of the best music i ever played on nobody ever heard really and consequently a lot of times the hits i mean that's not that's not what as a musician it didn't drive me i knew it drove a career and so to be associated with hits but i i never thought that way and and i've kind of felt the same way in producing music too i'm not this i'm not this all know you people the funny thing is this is something I've found to be so true.

37:04The more you are honest, you know, what? I like this song. My instincts are that we should do this. You do it and if you've had enough success, people think that you know the secret. And the more you say that you don't know the secret, your status keeps rising. Oh, he's hiding something. I'm not hiding anything. I'm such an open book. As a matter of fact, I'll just throw this out there. This is not news, but here's my song sense or my sense of what's commercial. When I first heard the Thriller record, this was right before we moved out to the West Coast, I didn't think it was very... I just didn't think it was great.

37:47Watch, I'll never get another call to produce a record now. At least anybody that listens to your show. Obviously, I've revisited that a couple times. She always said it amended my idiocrity. But no, it's just, you don't think about, at least, I didn't, you know, I just wanted to play the guitar. It was pretty stupid and simple. And I wanted to be able to pay, you know, the rent on our duplex. That was it. That was my window, my blinder version of the world. It was through the lens of a guitar. are and we mentioned Steve Lukather you know there and his his four bearers Larry Carlton and me written are people like that of course the rock stars Jeff Beck and you know you can go to those but but Steve affected me so much I to fill the when I say fill those shoes I don't think anybody filled his shoes but in order to get in that game you had to know what everybody was doing and that occupied all your time because um the the demands and and again if i if i think about it now like if it was if it was somebody that i know and is i'd be more nervous for them than for myself and i think it's just youth you know yeah so and what a master class you had you spoke to this earlier and in the producers you sat under because you you sat under the absolute legends I mean, David Foster and Quincy Jones.

39:19I mean, these are... Mutt Lang. Mutt Lang, that's exactly right. Tony Brown. I mean, humongous producers. Like, truly legends in their field. And here you are, you know, even at the osmotic level or very intentionally, you're soaking up all these things in a room. You're seeing like, how does... Right, right. Back one adjective ago. I'm sorry. This is... What was it? Osmotic. A, you don't know you're learning, but you are. That's just, I'm a songwriter, dancer. I kind of dabble. I dabble.

39:49Jon McLaughlin:So with those three producers, though, right there, like, I'm just curious. This is sort of a, just to prep you for the lightning round. Your job, John, is to keep things on track. I can just tell. Well, John is looking at him. Well, this is, this of any interview, this is like, this is the one where I'm going to have to keep Dave from, this could be eight hours. Keep it me, too. Thank you. No, but so what, with those three, Mott Lang, Quincy Jones, David Foster, what would you say if you had to do a mini lightning round here like superpower of each of those what are each of their superpowers that's a great well they the one that they immediately share the one thing that i attest to in any with any of those people when you show up in their world they're they're so good at what they do the level of expectation is astronomically wow wow and in And with that, now you could look at that and think to yourself, that bar is so high, it's scary.

40:50What I felt, at least what I remember feeling, is that you're asked to that party, you're invited to that party. And so you are worthy of that. Yes, what a great word. It elevates the room. And I've been with musicians that do the same thing. They elevate a room by their presence. um but lang i i've i've made the joke but it's really not a joke i i think he could beautiful wooden fence outside this studio he could get music out of that he just waits you he waits for you and he any some people had a hard time playing with him i talked some other studio musicians i knew what he was going for and and sometimes i would just pick a spot on the wall and just play until he said yes, you know.

41:40But you never feared not being represented in the best fashion. Wow. Which, man, you know, talk about something that would raise your value. Yeah. My memory of Quincy Jones was similar. He gave a great amount of autonomy to players. Wow. You know, he was a master musician. Yeah. And I think because he had that pedigree and that much success, he had nothing to prove. And so he was interested. I felt he was so interested in what you had to bring. And of course, he could have replaced you a thousand times over. So there's no pressure in that situation. um david foster uh just be such a musician's musician you know on a piano right you're gonna have 20 people on the same piano they're gonna all sound different you know and he had one of those those it's between it's it's all of the subtleties that is playing uh are you fan I mean yeah it's just his voicings the touch internally between the notes, the note value, all the stuff that you spend 10 hours with a MIDI scenario but it was just natural to him and he had the same effect as far as if you got to play for David Foster you knew it was going to be a badass record and he could articulate things musically just like yeah so quickly yeah all of them but but yeah those yeah those those uh scenarios in my young life uh was preparing me for something i had no clue i was amazing again an osmotic experience which is the name my jazz band the um so so you moved to nashville you spend this time in la what what gets you back here i got briefly bored started that rock band giant Yep.

43:47And we had some – Gigante in Spanish. Go ahead. Gigante. We thought we – I mean, we had some marginal success coming out of the box. And I thought, well, this is going to be interesting. I'm going to be a rock star now. Y 'all get signed in L.A. We did a record out there. We did it in London. But we released it. Nice flex there. Shiri and I had just gotten – had our first kid. And we just thought, you know, it would be nice since I don't have to play sessions anymore. for the rest of my life. You're like, I'm a rock star now. Yeah. Yeah, and so we moved to Nashville, and we came back, and because her family's here, my family's here, and we wanted to have more kids.

44:28Were you reading the room on L.A. feeling like, I'd rather do a, like this doesn't feel like somewhere, or are you like, let's just get back home to where we're from. That feels more like a family. It had been a wonderful ride, and again, I wasn't even 30, so it was, it was you know we weren't thinking long term we didn't have that much life experience yeah it says i don't need to play sessions to make a living and this is this is a new path i didn't expect this but this is gonna happen and so we moved back to nashville and we we cut a second record um and uh i'll never forget i was in new york we were mixing something and somebody said hey you want to check out this new band pearl jam and i saw the video for even flow you know i don't know if you guys remember that, but Eddie Vedder was climbing up this theater wall.

45:15And I do remember, I mean, it was a seminal moment. I was riveted by that. And I thought, I am nothing like that. And that is riveting. And, and, uh, I just, I, it was like, it was a prophetic moment. It was like, this thing that I'm involved in is not going to last. As a matter of fact, the whole thing is going to come crashing down. It just, you could sense it in the air. There was electricity in the air you know and of course you know then you hear never mind you know yeah yeah nirvana and then you hear this and so yes it came crashing down uh i'd say mercifully within about a year a year we were playing over in europe and you know the the european crowds are a little less fickle than the states as far as for you know melodic kind of rock which is what we were but you just sense the energy drained it was going towards something else and so it was like we had a decision to make let's either move back to la and i'll try to resume my career out there and we just didn't want to do it and so wow so and country music at that time which i knew nothing about was um i had a producer named james stroud and he was he was on fire doing so much and He was really good at what he did.

46:32And he was very kind, but he just had me play on every one of his records. And he was doing like 20 to 30 records a year. Oh, my gosh. And, you know, of course, I would articulate to him, you know, I know nothing about country music. And he said, that's not the drill here. You just do what you do. Whatever you play, we'll surround you with a cast that will take care of that aspect of it. And so my education began. And it was like, here I'm back to doing what I normally do. and the transition was not that big of a deal. Yeah. You know, just I was back in the studios. Yeah. And I thought, well, this is what I'm going to be doing.

47:10I'll be playing in Nashville. And I got to, you know, I got to experience something new. The learning curve was massive. I mean, because when I say I was not good at country music, I really mean, if anything, I was a pretty good judge of what was good as a guitar player. I mean, I remember sitting with Brent Mason the first time. Oh, my gosh. And I was – I can't imagine that. Oh, man, it was hurtful. But I did – Hurtful. Well, it was just hurtful. I mean, it was like, he's so good at this and I'm so bad. But then I had a pedigree of something else that I did. And once I let go of that, you know, you just go, you know, we all have our contributions.

47:51Jon McLaughlin:So kind of getting back to when you started out in L.A. and you were in those rooms and you had that necessary amount of confidence and that youth and that naivete. What was it then like? It's kind of like the second act as a player. You're here in Nashville. I'm hearing more insecurity maybe in your tone as you're recalling. Wisdom. I mean, it was, yeah, if I was insecure, it was because I knew why I was insecure. Right, right. So, like, counterintuitive, you know? Yeah, but remember, I had been affirmed for the 80s, and I was getting in all the big rooms again, sessions, because of my reputation of playing on these records.

48:41So it was, I'd say the tension, the polarity between those two realities. yes I played on big time records yes I had all this experience and and I was good yeah no I was horrible at this and that thing just kept it's like watching a ping pong match you know yeah you may tell you a fun fun experience as many as you have of these yeah please this is this involves Brent Mason and myself who let me just for those who don't know Brent Brent Mason probably arguably the best and most recorded country league guitar player of all time and and and and not limited to country music he's a great jazz player i mean incredible everything i mean just he's a virtuoso it's close and i don't use that word lately um i remember i remember james stroud you know like i said he was he was he could pass wind and it would be a hit record it was just that it was just that crazy i remember he had me on a session uh at glacier studio i mean i could i i'm gonna start perspiring when i say this now but but so and i knew brent mason was sitting across from me as close as you as close as all of us are right now and there was a song and uh it needed a chicken picking solo that's a that's an easy slam dunk dan you do it i was what Let me talk back.

50:11I'm sorry, James. You're like, no, no, no. I'm Dan. Yeah, yeah. Dan, I want you to do the solo. And it's like, no, come on, man. And Brent is sitting right there.

50:25Jon McLaughlin:Brent, why don't you scoot a little closer to Dan? Oh, and I cannot tell you. If I'm marinating this long enough, I will start perspiring. It was the most painful, humiliating thing in my life. I mean, I got through it, but yeah, it was just – Oh, my gosh. Brent just sat there just absolutely just unfazed, stone emotion, nothing. I mean, he probably – I'm guessing because he's a very sensitive person. He probably was crying inside for me. And or may have said, get your ass back out to the West Coast. You don't get this. you know no it was no but it was it was a great those years in the 90s it was it was again it was educational and if if you were all if you're a musician the joy is not is not the destin getting to the destination it's the journey right right so just more to learn you know but you know what's great about that that time too is you playing like because man smitty's records in the 90s were so, so good.

51:30And I think like, it must have been a nice relief knowing that while you're sitting in rooms sweating to death, you're getting gall from him going in and playing like what you do so well. And you're able to kind of, okay, I do, I am good. I have value. I can contribute. You know, between and between. I still can see my reflection in the mirror. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, that's when I met Mutt Lang too. And that started. Oh, and that's, yeah. And it was, then he was, you know, So he was doing, it was pre-Shinaya Twain. But yeah, so I mean, there was an integration. I didn't totally lose my confidence on everything.

52:03But I didn't know that I would, you know, as country music developed, it became the rock music of the 80s in a lot of ways. And so, you know, I was, you know, I just was there. And I was called, so I was a part of that movement. Again, none of this I intended. It just kind of fell in my lap. Right, right, right. Right. So how did production start? I think the reason I got a lot of calls to be a session player is because I understood the relationship of things. I was always enamored with the relationship of like, why does this passage, this lick, whatever you want to call it, sound so good on this course and not the same on this course?

52:42So that was all my high school years. I just was just fascinated by that. So you learn how to play, where you play, what you play in relationship to other things. Yeah. So my understanding of music was, I would say, there was a foundational representation of that description. It was all relationship-oriented. It wasn't a piece of gear. It wasn't any one thing. It was all those things. So it's like if you use another analogy, if a studio musician is a subcontractor, the guy that's going to be called to do your drywalling or your electrical or your plumbing, the producer would be the general contractor.

53:28And so that was just a natural progression. My interest being around so many good producers and once you kind of play on so many records, you kind of get an idea of how to build that project. And so I had a little recognition of that and a desire and I swatted around a little bit. It's funny, you can play on, and by this point I was playing on a lot of hits in Nashville. I mean country music hits. It's funny. My first foray into it, the currency then was the producer had to walk in with the songs. Most producers were also the publishers back then. That was a kind of interesting coincidence. Oh, they own the studios too.

54:16Wow, amazing how that works.

54:21and I just want to make music and so I would go into these I played on hits so I knew what hits were and I'd go into these publishing houses to listen to songs for these artists that I get called for and they're pulling out of their third and fourth and fifth drawers not top shelf shall we say and dancing around and going here's a hit and I'm like boy I just played on a couple this week and it doesn't sound like that That doesn't sound anything like that. Maybe I'm missing something. But the transition was a little tough until, here's the big moment with the drum roll. I'll never forget, I was sitting with Mutt Lang, and I don't remember when it was, what record it was, but he said, he just out of the blue, he said, you really should be a producer.

55:06Have you ever considered that? Wow. And for him to say that.

55:09Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, for anyone. You listen. It's like, you know, and I said, I don't know. and um but he said i really haven't you know just watching you i said i think you should you should throw your hat in the ring and so he made it easy um because he he and shania they were married at that time and i think the story goes uh faith hill told me about this that is three substantial names oh i know 10 seconds it's you're like dave this is my life look welcome to being Sorry, go ahead. I know what that makes me. I get it. Just a man telling a true story. Just a guy telling a true story about his true life is what that makes you.

55:52You can't defend it. The envy of the town. But they said, those people said to that person, how's that? Back that thing up. Said, have you ever thought about hiring Dan? Faith was making a transition. Oh, yeah. at that stage in her life to a new producer. And she said, well, no, I hadn't considered it because I was playing on her record. Yeah, yeah. You know, he's the guitar player. Yeah. So bottom feeder, I think that was what it was. But as a result of Mutt Lang, and then I'm sure because of Shania too, no, he'd probably be really good. So that got me in the door. Wow. And then things kind of happened.

56:38And at that time, I did get a gig. I was producing the band Megadeth for my rock day. So that was an interesting transition. So Faith and Megadeth about the same time. Good night. And Faith had...

56:51Jon McLaughlin:A lot of different settings. I was going to say on the board, yeah. Oh, man. You know you're in a different world when you go in the studio and you put in ear protection. No. Just for Faith. That was for you. good one yeah no i mean it was yeah we had a big box and mega death and every time you go in and you start working you put in you put in oh my god yeah because it was so loud anyway but so faith had a had a couple of hits um and and one of them was a song that was just you know i did think this was a hit by the way and so this was one of those situations where it was a song called let me let go Oh my gosh, that Vince sang.

57:33What a song. It was a great song. What a song. Crazy chord changes too, by the way. Just beautiful. Steve Diamond and now Dennis Morgan wrote it. I think they're the only two words. I think you're right. It was beautiful. I always thought I did it too fast. Really? You really think that? I do. I have a hard time listening to anything I've ever done. But it probably made it more of a single because it was up. Who knew? But all of a sudden, as a musician, your credibility, your currency, everything, it's about the last day if you please somebody with what you did. In the world of producing, the bar is, was it successful?

58:20Did it make money? That's the truth. Because that's just the way it is. So nobody's hiring you for your better sounding records. If it's not successful, nobody cares about that. Let's just say from the commerce side of the record. But that garnered people saying, who is this guy? So they threw me some little, they throw crumbs out. And there was just a string of hits that came out. Well, you were able, I mean, to give you credit there, Dan, I mean, you were able to take, as you said, those crumbs and turn them into cookies. That's free. That's free, guys. i have an online course there's okay sure it's just 2025 appeal to and it's european makes it european um you guys practice this we had that whole bit all right he saw the cute it's all written i gave him a wink and he was like oh we're doing the scones you're just reeling me in i feel i feel played on this whole thing you knew where this was going when you get back in your you're going to realize your wallet's gone when you get in your car and that's really the end game with this um so so what i was going to say and i think what people need to that are listening need to understand is, you know, I would argue that in that season, especially country music producers are such a different kind of producer responsibility wise than I would argue mainstream or Christian, whatever, because in that season, you really are listening.

59:41You're listening to songs. You're finding songs a lot of times. So it's not just, Hey, let's get the band in cut some tunes. What do you guys got? I mean, you're really, but you know, it's, it's a big job it's a big leap it's not just i went from sitting there playing guitar in rooms to like now i'm standing behind the board kind of telling people to do it's a lot of responsibility i mean like you said like it kind of lives or dies on if not only if you can find the songs you produce them and if they're hits so it's a lot it's not just hey how do we like the bass part it's is are the drums too shimmery it's like okay and i've built it from the bottom up i would say like

1:00:17Jon McLaughlin:obviously every role has its challenges and like we said the the players have a very singular you know task that that they're doing but that that can be very challenging but the producer can be like it can be anything i mean and you can produce it there you know i've worked with some producers who they might not even know how to turn the computer on yeah but they that's not their thing they they they're all about the ear and some are very hands-off and they just make you feel like you are the greatest musician in the world and they get the best stuff out of you we've worked with uh producers who can play every instrument better than probably anybody in the room there's all different kinds of ways that you could do your job as a producer which i think could would be really challenging yeah you know yeah it's like there's a million ways like if you're the guitar player you're coming in you're like well i'm gonna play one of these guitars on this song you know i can change my settings but i'm gonna play guitar if you're the producer you're like well i could sleep on this couch and go rick rubin style or i could get in and micromanage i mean you know Go play golf.

1:01:28Jon McLaughlin:Go play golf. Yeah. Touche. Yeah. To me, again, it was just an extension of playing sessions. Yeah. So you find out. Personally, for me, I didn't enjoy the idea of being the arbiter of songs. I was always more interested, what do you want to sing? Yeah. Yeah. So I was able to transition out of that relatively quickly. Which instantly makes the artist love you. Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, as long as you have hits, you know, but it's... I mean, the label might not be happy with that approach, but the artist loves you. Yeah, but it's like that's... I mean, that's an artist, right? I mean, if you're just feeding the machine, that's another thing.

1:02:12But the idea of collaboration has always been kind of sacred to me, and it elevates... I get elevated by it, and I feel like then I can do a better job. So if somebody comes in and says, this is what I want to say, we got to start. How do you want to say it? Do you have musicians you like? I mean, that was a thing that I learned from these producers who you mentioned earlier, too. They weren't dependent upon having any players. They could work with anybody, right? And so, again, there's another bar right there.

1:02:48And it's – I've never been going back to base, but I tend to always go back there. But it's like the teams that always have been really nailing it in the last quarter of a century, right, are not these teams that pay the big salaries. Every once in a while the Yanks will – they'll slip through, right? But normally it's not. It's the farm club. It's not having all-stars. It's – I love the teamwork, you know, and a good – So I think all of that plays into it. So what you find yourself doing, you walk into a, let's just call a project a room. You have to read that room, see what the requirements are, find out what the, you have to also be a liaison to the label because you have responsibility to them.

1:03:33But to the artist, what do you want to say? Who do you want to say it with? What do you like? Yeah. And that way, again, it's self-serving in the end because you're not producing the same record over and over again. Yeah.

1:03:43Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. because it keeps you in business and it also you if you're open you learn and and uh you know i mean you take your lumps i mean sometimes you find out the hard way on certain things but yeah overall i i really um i learned as you all mentioned earlier by being in the room with with great producers and i and also i will say i was in the room with a lot of who i i wouldn't i wouldn't call them great producers they were some of them were were real scoundrels as far as I was concerned and I learned as much language you got there's the there's the Brentwood Academy in me coming out of that little school here in town yeah freak freaking and you know scoundrel darn it and all those I know I know that was part of my generation too you youngsters I want you to actually bleep all those words that you just said that's just oh I'm itching to say the the the originals but I'm not gonna get original yeah um but but all that you just you know it's if you're open to it you can grow and and again who who imagines that you get something from music yeah i always have received more from it than than not yet has paid the bills and and you know from that standpoint it's great but i still love music and so you learn it you know but but at that time what there was there was there were two things that happened just some things turned wildly into hits that nobody would have you know like like songs that people passed on 15 times yeah yeah um yeah that song with lone star amazed was gosh what a song so what happens everybody says you're you're a genius hey can i ask you a question about that song oh yeah so this to me one of the greatest bridges of all time

1:05:33did you write that in the studio oh i don't know see somebody told me i remember talking to i think marv maybe actually told because i'm when i met him the guy one of the guys wrote it i was like this what that bridge and i think he laughed he's i think dan just wrote that we put a back in that now here here's a back in the day story you know everybody's a writer nowadays yeah yeah yeah we would you would be a billionaire by the way if that were true well i mean it was a job right yeah you came up with hooks yeah so so you know who knows i mean but that's just part of what you yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so so i want to ask you just a little insider baseball to stay with your metaphor really quickly what this is just a selfish question so humor me yeah what do you think and i'm sure this could be a hour and a half long answer but as abbreviated as you can what do you think the biggest differences you feel between production then and production now like being a producer then and now from a from a technical and artistic standpoint everything evolves right so so i hear things that i just go oh man i would have never thought about that what i think from then if you're talking about 20 or more years ago and then i go back to you know back to analog days i think what we had was a smaller crayon box it was like the remember when you were a kid and they had the eight covers right and then you got the 64 i always wanted the 64 right yeah you had the sharpener and are crayons even a thing nowadays by the way they still it's all it's apps they're hanging on now okay so every one of my metaphors now it's an ipad pen oh that hurts well i have no equivalent so you're just gonna have to stick with this one but i think we we we didn't have as many options so you didn't there was no paralysis of sound libraries of, you know, here's 8 ,000 snares, choose one.

1:07:27And so you had much more simple food groups, and you had to get on with it. And so I think that is what I hear. Wow. The struggle to say something with less available. Wow. And so sometimes that tension, you can hear it and feel that in the music. And I think that's a good tension. You know, I'm not, I really, yeah. And we all have our generations of what we listen to. So most of what I would say probably wouldn't be relevant to your question. but I don't I hear I also well I don't hear it but I know for a fact is that the the requirements are different nowadays they're you know back in in in the earlier time you had to learn the art of mic placement yeah I'm not an engineer but yeah all these things and these maybe just the the sum total of all that coming together affected the music a little bit but what I hear now is I hear a kind of a pivot to that people listening having had 25-30 years now of what's going on perfection, all this life on the grid and you knew this was going to happen because everything is secular You know, I mean, it's just it's going to it's going to come back in a new way.

1:09:01But it's going to certain values hang on because they're good values. Right. But they have to be time tested. And so I'm hearing that kind of a not I wouldn't call it a revolution, but I would say incorporating it. But a lot of what's going on, I mean, that was just that was just younger people doing the same thing. You know, so it's I try not to get too much into the good old days or judgment. good music is good music if it makes sure I always feel like especially with commercial music it's just a way for people to go this is how I feel I can't say it when words aren't enough thank you I thought I'd sneak that in there we can get to that later on bakedalaskarecords.com you have been in the industry for a while I can tell but but that's that's kind of my feeling about it and uh yeah what if if anything and this is i'm

1:10:00Jon McLaughlin:this question is probably coming out of me putting myself in your shoes time and time again going in to start a new record as the producer and like dave said earlier like it's such a big responsibility what still makes you nervous at the beginning of a record tracking tracking every time when When we go in with a – people still call me because I don't generate it just myself. If I did it, it wouldn't be very good. And I think they like me because I touch on certain things that are from the past. I mean, like playing a Motown record and stuff like that, bringing that collaborative side. And I think – as a matter of fact, can I do one more just side thought?

1:10:51I will remember the question. As many as you want. Well, this, I mean, because this is, I think, pertinent to your question. When I was in my late 50s, maybe 57 or something like that, the baseball, again, the pitches felt like they were coming in faster. All of a sudden, it's like, what's going on? Never forget that. And it was, technology really had started to move, and I was getting left in the dust on certain things. I just wasn't, you know, I was learning, and I wasn't open to it. I just sensed gravity, you know. In music years, 50 in music years, that's Methuselah. Okay, I'm 47. Jason, would you delete that for any potential clients that may be listening?

1:11:40I remember seeing, when I was in my 20s, seeing guys 35 years old thinking, what were they in the room for? They were ancient. Were they doing like a lifetime achievement? at the end of the session it's like what so you know so so consequently i i started getting and this was this was kind of i'd been in my third iteration of music career and i thought maybe this is when i get the rolex and i just go you know it was and there was there was a there's a healthy component of fear ego you know all of a sudden i'm i i just kind of felt that that thing that every one of us go through. So it's not a new thing.

1:12:17And I got in the conversation with Sherry as inevitably we always do. And she just saw right passage. And she said, why don't you just do what you do good and quit worrying about trying to be like this alpha? You know, because at a point, you know, we're all, you know, we come up, we're kind of alphas, you know, right? That's kind of our card for getting into it the way we represent the world. We've got to stake our territory. And all of a sudden, I was no alpha. As a matter of fact, an aging dude. And I had an interesting experience that just totally repunched my time clock. Jesse Frazier, who both of you guys probably know great, he was producing a guy named Thomas Rhett.

1:13:04We all know who Thomas Rhett is. At that time, he had some hits. And I mean, he was doing great. And I was very aware of him. I was a fan of what he was doing, especially with Jay Joyce, who I think is one of the treasures in this. I mean, that guy is so ridiculously great. And they came over to my house. They said they want to talk to me. And I said, why? You guys, I heard the music they were doing. They were writing songs. Jesse was writing with Chris Stapleton, this unknown guy. Chris was singing the demos. So anyway, I'm listening to these demos and going, what do you want with me? And they basically articulated, at least how I interpreted it, was that we just want your experience.

1:13:49Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so, and that changed my career again. That moment, I am so grateful to both of them for that. Because we had some wonderful records. and answer your question, John, it never is wrote for me. So every time that I go in, I always feel aware of my limitations and you don't know what you're going to get. Experience helps and I don't panic, but I get nervous every time I go in. Yeah, and it's just I've made friends with that nervousness as opposed to resisting, and I kind of let it do what it's going to do. Maybe it makes me a little bit more conscientious. I don't know.

1:14:45I don't like the feeling, though. I've never gotten used to it. Wow, still. No. Yeah. No, not one bit. And I think part of it probably is good because you have to let go and say, I don't have all the answers. Right. And yeah, that'll make you nervous. I think that is, to me, in the, you know, when I've produced just, I mean, a lot of, just like you, Dan, so many great records of my own. If there is a thing that stresses me out when I'm producing, it is knowing, and I know John has done this too, we may not have what we need at the end of the day. Yeah. Like we could try to fix, we could try to play this song and halfway through I'm going, that none of this is right and we have a fixed amount of time to figure that out i mean that that that is the thing that i feel like you're saying so acutely every time i walk into work on music in the studio with players yeah when you're the producer it's like if whatever's not

1:15:42Jon McLaughlin:working eventually all the heads are going to turn and look at you yeah and be like so i do have an answer for that though i do i mean ironically i mean it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't um uh It doesn't help me deal with the nerves, but through experience and by watching some of these guys before me, I watch people panic. And when people panic, they get fearful and they lash out, right? Yeah. And that is the absolute last thing you want to do. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then that sort of sets the tone for the rest of the room. Everybody's playing with handcuffs on. Yeah. and and I'd have learned this is and and this is you know if I taught a course it would be over in in three in 30 seconds but but in essence the answer at that point is taking a breath and realizing that you have a collective you know if you cast a band right you you're calling people you think are great yeah that's right the answer is going to be somewhere in that mix and you and if you're quiet enough to hear that whisper yeah you'll find it yeah it's true and what's the worst that's going to happen you fail that day yeah but you know but but usually it's it's it's amazing if you if you let it go i mean you know come on this is this is these are these are things we've learned in in you know in in our earliest kindergarten classes in in churches and spiritual practices and therapy whatever you you you gain your life by losing it i mean you know i mean it's a truth because it's a truth and it pertains to everything.

1:17:23And it pertains to the studio work. And it's, you know, somebody could say, oh, you're over-spiritualized. No, you're not, because it's all spiritual. It's all personal. It's all the same thing. There's no difference. Well, and you know, too, like a buddy of mine gave me this quote up here, which I think is a Ronald Reagan quote, but it says, there's no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. And I think if there is a attribute to great producers, it is that. it is an ego-less like hey the best idea always wins in the room yeah not mine just the best idea and sometimes it's mine sometimes it's not and i think man that has i love that's a very wise word dan i think the times that i've been so relieved is when i've just been like yeah i don't know what do you guys hey like drummer what are you feeling you know i think it's a little fast and what if the bass player follows me on this and all of a sudden it's like breath happens yeah

1:18:13Jon McLaughlin:And you're like, and it gives them license to say the thing that they've probably been thinking for the last 10 minutes. Yep. And then you fire them immediately. Immediately. This is my record. After the session. This is my record. Sure. It was always my idea. That's how it's going to go down. So something with this being dead, Bill, a couple more questions. The thing I want to ask, how did you balance family with all this stuff? So, I mean, you know, with L.A., the family's starting. But within Nashville, you know, you're busy. Like you're doing, you're playing on records. You're producing records.

1:18:44You know, what does family look like in the middle of all that? Well, I had a head start. My parents were just, they did that. My dad was a great musician. Excuse me. He was an orchestrator, and he was fairly famous, and he was really good at what he did. But he had two sons that were playing. My brother, Dave, plays drums, and I played guitar. And he never asked us. I mean you see how people score right I mean he's writing he's writing down a scoring page for all the parts of the symphony right yeah and he never insisted that it'd be quiet in the house I'd be playing guitar you know whatever screeching on something they would be playing something in the other room and what he would do this is back in the 70s so he they didn't have Bose you know headphones noise canceling headphones so he had a little little television and he put on this table near where he was orchestrating his piano, and he'd just turn up the piano.

1:19:41I mean, I'm sorry, turn up the television. It was, in essence, white noise. Kind of white noise, yeah. And he would always be at our ballgames with his scoring, and he would score. No, wow. And so, you know, and he just, that's the way he was. And so, you know, and my mom was the same way. So, by the way, what a scene, I'm like, in my mind, I'm imagining, you know, this big yellow. And he's looking up. Nice, bud. Nice. You know, every pitch. Everyone thinks he's taking stats on the team. It's a big you get a smaller notepad than that. So I had that in there was no way to go. I told my dad he died in 2018, but he was he was best man at all of his son's weddings.

1:20:28And just I loved him. And excuse me. so i told him one time i said you know compared to you i'm an asshole you know and and i meant it i mean you know and the i'm not that but he had that thing about him he didn't he ever pandered never patronized people he just so i i saw him treat his family like that yeah so i knew i knew the difference but ultimately in answer your question i mean everybody has a choice to make and and you know there are days when your music will suffer because you spent time with your family and that's okay and there are times that your family suffers because you have to do the music it's to me it's just the the rebalancing it's that's all there is it's it's not a perfect science and uh but i i don't know anybody you know sometimes marriages go bad and it's inevitable and that just is what it is but i don't know anybody that's ever um complained when they're old you know i wish i'd spend more time doing my work you know just right just the thing so it's it's not that hard and i and i you know i love my family i mean i've i've been in love with sherry since i was 13 which is bizarre i know but it's just it's just one of those things and um and then you know i got i got three adult kids you know my oldest is going to be 40 this year so that gives you yeah it gives you a little indication um of that but it's yeah it's it's it's one of those things i i'm i'm i'm grateful that i was able to stay um in and be a studio player so i didn't have to go on the road that much so that that kind of helps yeah listen john yeah i just i I have to get this off my chest.

1:22:16Do it. Yes, it's August now, but it's going to get chilly. And this feels like a time. August feels like the time to hit reset before the autumn rush begins. And honestly, I can't think of a better place to start than my closet. Dave, same page.

1:22:30Jon McLaughlin:That's why I love shopping at Quince. You always do that. Yeah, and here's why. They're all about fewer, better pieces. Made with premium materials, built to last, and designed to become the things that you reach for every day. Like the ultra soft organic cotton tape in the Korean Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I wear them all the time. Almost early day. They have the fit and quality you'd expect from a luxury designer brand, John. You know, Quince works directly with ethical factories and they just cut out the middleman. They're like, get out of here. So you're paying for exceptional quality instead of brand markups, you know, and keeping everything priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands.

1:23:11Quince has hotel quality, bedding, bath essentials, premium cookware, travel gear, and everyday essentials.

1:23:18Jon McLaughlin:Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash dadville. You get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's quince.com slash dadville.

1:23:41John, to improve your sleep, it's not complicated. No, it's simple.

1:23:45Jon McLaughlin:Most people just need better sheets on their bed. Exactly. You know what? That's why we upgraded to Bull and Branch. And it's amazing how quickly we notice a difference. Dave, literally overnight. Just to be clear, not me and you, us and our wives. Oh, I don't know. I was sleeping so deep, I didn't know who was in that bed. Listen, John, they make everything, too. Not just sheets. It's organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, comforters. It's all designed to be super soft, breathable. and actually work together. And the sheets actually get softer over time. I have more to say, John. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch.

1:24:17Get 15 % off your first order, plus free shipping. Where, John? BowlinBranch.com slash Dadville with code Dadville.

1:24:26Jon McLaughlin:That's BowlinBranch.com. That's B-O-L-L-A-N-D Branch.com slash Dadville. Code Dadville to unlock. 15 % off. Exclusions apply.

1:24:39were there times with sherry was she ever like seasonally have times she'd sit down and be like hey like we it'd be great if you could be home around more like be home more or like would you what did that look like with y 'all or was it just kind of you know she in la it was so funny in our 20s we'd gone out there this is my dream you know yeah and uh and she she she said i'll go and i'll never forget about five years and i'm living the dream she's i think we just had ashley we may not have even had hurry at that point but she one evening she sat down she said i need to talk to you she said look i love you but that is never a good start by the way don't love that yeah but i'm gonna move back to nashville we'll still be married and she said just like that that quickly we'll still be married um you know but but you know i don't see you as it is so what's the what's the difference of me just living in nashville and it was like a ton of bricks and she meant it holy cow and wait so ashland they'd been born no i don't think ashland had been so you just had okay your son yep and and she meant it and and so we're honest and and uh you know i mean every once in a while you'd feel that oh yeah a decade will go by and homeostasis and then all of a sudden you know i mean you know i mean we all have different kind of rules and and uh you know sometimes it takes you away and sometimes you have to kind of you make those judgments you're not always right but but we just talk it out yeah it's just it's it's that kind of thing she knows that i value her way more than anything else yeah yeah yeah so and she uses that against me can i I was going to say, that's a good wife.

1:26:17That's a very good. Witch. Witch. So this is W-H-I-C-H. So before we release you to the hounds, before we get to the lightning round, because I know you are just ready to go. I want to talk about this new record, okay? And so as you said, I'm going to say it again, your first instrumental record. For those who said two, that's a lie. It's not true. When Words Aren't Enough, which you referenced so beautifully before in Subterfuge. Making this album I was curious about this Versus other albums I mean this is really interesting to me Because you make a lot of records For people What is it like For you to go in With your record And your songs And your casting the band You know Is it Does it feel different Than like You know If me or John came in And said hey Can we do a record together Terror Well I mean It's like I didn't know if I had anything to say Yeah And I had been I had been encouraged for years and why don't you play guitar?

1:27:15And I had so many excuses. I was busy. And the other side of the coin, which I never admit, is I just don't play that much guitar. There's a perception about me that I'm not. And so there's your ego, there's your fear, whatever it is. And one day about a year ago, maybe just a little bit more, but I think it was late June, I just sat down, had a couple days that I wasn't doing anything. I was like, well, this is interesting. got a couple grooves from a live drum library or something like that and I just sat down with a guitar and just started jamming with a groove and a song came out you know just and that was it I mean so drum drum groove maybe a lead guitar and rhythm something play chords no bass or anything like that yeah and I did that I liked it I listened to it on my phone it's like well that sounds pretty good and I just pressed repeat and play for a couple weeks or months or something like that I had enough tunes and it was like this could be pretty good so I I called the bass and drums who was it on that by the way Mark Hill yep and gosh and and first of all the thing with Mark I had I had played a gig with him I hadn't played with him much in the studio and and And I played a live gig.

1:28:42I got called to play in a live band thing about a year earlier at the Musicians Hall of Fame. Oh, wow. And it was really cool. And this bass, the amp was right in my backside. And it was, I mean, that guy plays with such a ferocity. Oh, yeah. And then Jerry Rowe, the drummer. Oh, yeah, Jerry, of course. And I'd called Jerry on quite a few records. But there was something about them, the tenor of this record, so to speak, is is very i would say to my sweet spot emergence in music which would be mid to late 70s i wanted a real innocent sounding not too layered you know all that kind of stuff i always put too much crap on my record and this i was determined not to they they we had had some some talks about that and they they heard some of the music they both want to do it they they kind of digest the demos and my idea was to use a bunch of my friends musician friends these these guys plowed through it in two days i used to see it was just the whole record yeah yeah well everything but one song and and so yeah and and uh my idea was to take it back into the house and then really play the proper guitar parts and i found out very quickly that the demos that i had done were the essence yeah now i you know my and as i was playing my my chops were starting to come back to me just a muscle memory you know the the soul of it was there though and and so this is a good thing i've been producing enough to at least recognize that and i realized i had a decision to make and it's like is this going to be a record to impress my guitar friends i mean number one that's kind of embarrassing you know i i can't keep up with these younger players i might i get on youtube and watch this so that would be funny and goofy if i did that and i also thought that's not really what i was saying when i was writing these songs i was writing melodies and i realized that my one of my guitar heroes was jeff beck and all of a sudden i'm thinking there was no difference between melody and solos yeah that in other words the the head of the song or the melody of the song was not written as an excuse to to to um impress people and play right right it was all that's why people go to see Jeff Beck concerts when he was in his 70s yeah and so anyway I was learning as I was emerging and learning at 64 years old which is the greatest gift that I got back I didn't know I was going to be given the gift of this music I was doing it on my own too I just I didn't have any I didn't sign any record deal and I was just funding it myself I asked back again I said Sherry do you mind if I spend some money on myself at this point she said anything to get you out of the house we'll take it and and no she was so gracious and and it just it was this it was this like walking into a uh into a path and of course you have no clue where you're going yeah and and i felt i felt like a kid and and that was the other gift i i i came kind of full circle back to myself and yeah and that so this this is really this is really it's a journey is what it is and i actually really enjoy i can i can listen to the record and and it's because it i i didn't uh for once overdo it yeah i mean i fixed stuff don't get me wrong it's not like i you know yeah and and the guitar playing is exactly what i mean i think it plays to my strengths it's about nuances it's it's really i can't separate that this record from who i am it's yeah it's it is that is as much me as i can possibly be if you if you like it great if you don't i mean you just wouldn't like me i guess so that's that's because i can't i really can't do anything more than be that but that that for me being a chameleon all my life or or a studio player yeah this that was the terrifying thing of stepping up front and saying you know i can't hide behind it yeah right you know it's funny you said that three of the things that i thought about were one i was really amazed at how much it feels like a band because you know when you think hey a legendary guitar player who's a producer is going to do an instrumental all the math leads to oh this is going to be i mean this is this is the apex this is where you know his production meets his playing and it's going to be like and and with each song i was like man the this feels like a band record this isn't a hey check me out super production guitar player it feels like a band record which is funny because when i listen to southern synchronicity that was the one i was like the fiddle thing who does the fiddle on that but it's so cool because it i think i thought one how simple it feels in such a band way two i love and i told john we were talking about i was i was like i love it made me smile every time where you'd kind of hit rip a lick where it'd be like playing the melody and i was like everybody that loves you is like it's feeding their soul to know like you have these moments where it's like you know you kind of unbutton the bottom two buttons you can't hold it back for a second and then you button it back up you know it's like yeah because you know that's what i'm warning i want to hear like just give me a little you know passion passion every now and then but also um which i loved all the belongs the guitar thing the acoustic everything belongs everything belongs i was like i just loved that there was a moment in such a big electric record that there's an acoustic piece and i love if you'd come to me and said hey a and r this record i think that that'd be the one thing i would have said it was just like man i think for the fans we'd love a moment that's just an acoustic moment you know that was the song i wrote for sherry originally because i thought it it kind of it basically was descriptive of the everything belongs is yeah it was it was it was actually the let's shall we say the multiplicity of her of just who she is she's a layered human being and i've gotten to be with her all these years and and grow with her.

1:34:37And she heard the tune, and she said, yeah, that's nice. What else you got? I know. She's a tough A &R. Oh, man. She heard this other song. She went, ooh, that's kind of 70s. And I already knew that I was going to call the song for her. I thought, when words aren't enough, that's a perfect descriptive code for I can't write lyrics worth damn. But that was the way I was going to spin it. And no, truly, that's what I love about music, just because it can go where words can't go, and vice versa. But she said, that's the song for me. I said, that's your wish. And so everything, what did I call it?

1:35:20It All Belongs? Yeah, it was my offshoot of one of the people that has meant the most in my life is a man that I don't know. Father Richard Rohr. He's a Franciscan priest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has enriched my life in more ways than reading his books. I love that man. I've never met him. And he has a podcast or a book called It All Belongs. Yeah. So that was my tip of the cap. Sure, he did say, can I have both? And I said, nope. No, you don't think you want. You get one. And that's how that. One for every woman in your life. Have you found, I mean, I know you just put the record up, But I would imagine, too, doing a record.

1:36:03It's so funny that you do it in this season of Life You're In. Because I would imagine it. Should we unpack that just a little bit or just list? When I said that. He's got nothing else to do. When I said that, I was like, you better move, Dave. He's already tagged it. He's clocked it. And he's just following me. But I think. You're going to let that stand, John? You're going to help me out? Let me say what I mean by that. Is that if you had made that record when you started producing, I wonder how it would have affected. because you know you're going you feel like an artist all of a sudden you're you know you're going in kind of guys like this how do i you know what's my band who do i want like how much do i produce this and so it's interesting doing it now because i just wonder as you keep producing records if that's going to be something having just experienced it as an artist to go oh man when you say that now i know exactly what you mean where before it was like you know okay well well don't worry about that we're now you're like oh man i'm walking and doing that feeling what you just said you know yeah it affects almost it affects me in a little bit different way is is that i i didn't do this for for a an extension of career or commercial outing yeah as a matter of fact i just assume that nobody's gonna i mean you know i hope people like it yeah yeah but so so it affected me in a way that anytime you you you are honest right it affects your music so it does affect the way i look at other people and artists um when i was in giant and we were living week to week by radio ads that that clued me into that existence of oh yeah of course this this i you know i haven't really thought about that i don't know that i have a good answer for you it it does affect me um it's it's more personal for me just because i feel like a musician again my own yeah I feel like my hands are my hands.

1:37:55All that kind of stuff matters to me. And, yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe you'll have to have me on when I turn 95 next year. And we can figure out what that is, what that answers. John and I may be dead before that. It's funny. One of my best friends produced my early records. He's got a name, Ed Cash. He's in a band called We the Kingdom. And it was funny catching up with Ed because, you know, Ed was an artist for a while. Then he produced for forever. And then he started a family band. with his kids and they've had a ton of success and but you know he kind of I think he started when he was 50 the band with his kids I mean it was a really weird move because it goes from like and I remember the first time we caught up because I didn't see him for a minute because you know he's out touring and doing like the artist thing and they were having a lot of success he was really busy and one of the first conversations we had that was so amazing is I was like dude like you know how are you doing any one of the things he said was he's like man it has just given me such an insight into the artist's life.

1:38:54You know, he's like, because, you know, after producing so many records, I just had kind of forgotten what that's like. Oh, yeah. And he's like, man, now that we're doing our records and I'm the artist and I'm doing photo shoots and posting, you know, TikToks, whatever, he's like, it has just really helped me remember and relate to artists as I continue to produce because I'm like, oh, man, I feel that again, you know. I can see that. Which would be such an interesting, you know. I'm not as up on the posting. I mean, I'm getting into the game a little bit. But no, that empathy, I think, is more for me just on the terror of exposing yourself.

1:39:34Putting yourself out there. Well, I mean, it's just, yeah, because a little different for me because I'm not asking everybody. I don't want everybody like me. I don't know. Is anybody impervious to that? I wish I was, but I'm just not. Dolly Parton. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I wish I...

1:39:51Jon McLaughlin:Notoriously. Just no empathy. Yeah. Nobody likes me. Look, right, right, right. No, you got me on that one. I wish that I could... I've heard artists say, look, I'm doing this for me, and I don't care if somebody likes it or not. Yeah. I couldn't honestly say that. I'd like to believe that about myself. Well, I definitely think that there are people who do not... I mean, they are razor focused on whatever they think the right thing, you know, for the record is or for their businesses or whatever. I definitely think there are people who don't care how they're affecting other people. You know, I say that just to say you, it sounds like you have never been on that track.

1:40:37Jon McLaughlin:I mean, and the fact that you, it sounds like I have naturally just been kind of empathetic and cared about the people in the room, you know, not worried about your ego. That's not just a given, you know, especially with somebody who's had as much success as you've had as early on as you've had. I would say that's maybe more the rarity, you know. Yeah, success. I mean, it's a, it's a, it can be a double. Yeah. What's the cliche? is it double double double-edged sword double-edged sword thing i was gonna say a double sided coin well you know it listen let it convey that too yeah it's double-sided sword it does it does it does it gets you to the point where where yes the empathy is great because because you know i mean we want to be liked but also if you really i do i do get this if you want to be honest and you and you actually achieve that honesty with yourself first that's got to be it wow That's very powerful.

1:41:37And then from that standpoint, now I will say this, in people that I'm producing right now, my day job still, it makes me that much more committed to that. I'm asking them those questions. Yeah, that's great. And so I think it took me, I mean, seriously, I didn't have an answer for you on that for a minute. I did from the first go around as an artist when I was in that rock band. But I think that's the byproduct of this. and so it's it's it's wonderful and it just you know i mean it for me it's a full circle because i love music and and the the beauty of of getting to do it for the you know prominent part of my life i gratitude it's a gift it's great it's done a lot of things but there's a price that that extracts from you wow um at least for me because it it because of the demands of it it to be you the demand to be successful, right?

1:42:34It takes you away from that thing that we all did when we were in our bedrooms practicing our instruments. Whatever we're doing, we weren't seeing the world through that prism then. Sometimes I think that having music as your hobby could be more sacred. What a good word. My gosh, what a good word. So I'm rediscovering, because I'm playing small ball. with this record this is not this is not meant i mean you know of course would i love a lot of people here of course i would but that's i have to keep remembering why i did it and it just pulls me back into the place and and i'm and i and i and you know it is it's coming back to these again these these we call them spiritual truths the the rich person is the person who doesn't want anything yeah and that is that's kind of that's and that's not an excuse for anything it's just the it's just the truth so i got this little record and i'm thrilled and you know it's it's it's being marketed pretty niche you know guitar players are nerds you know so so me being the quintessential nerd they find out we find out what people are doing and people that that you know were interested in my life my career i think they're finding this and yeah for the most part that's it that's what you want i hope yeah yeah and if they don't like it i always you know i'm telling just don't tell me because i got really thin skin and i will cut you i just there's a whole thing there's a double edged sword in my hand that's la that's just your time in la poking through is what that is um oh here it comes here it comes oh i need like the shot at the end of the doctor's visit or the or dude how much does that this is the rubber gloves i've forgotten about that i've forgotten about the shot at the end oh man but not the rubber gloves you know what that sound is yeah that's a little other yeah yeah reminds me of gv um you're going first okay yeah i'm gonna go first here we go who is one artist that you would still love to produce bono jeez louise starting off i was about to say present company excluded that wouldn't even get a chance to i'll never even get it i'm so glad you led with that one i asked your producer to send me all the question no he didn't no um but i have loved that not yeah you too yeah i have i have admired them all my life yeah and i i love philosophically where they're at and i just i i really i i won't get that chance but let's don't say that yeah well it's okay that'd be a great record he's a big He's a good listener, so I would probably.

1:45:10Jon McLaughlin:Also, can I just point out the irony of your anxiety about the lightning round? No one has ever answered a question that fast. That fast. In the lightning round. Vince Gill did. Did he? Did he? Yeah. You asked him his – you can tell I'm a Vince Gill fan, right? Yeah. Yeah, you asked him his favorite song. It was Desperado. No, his favorite song of him was Whenever You Come Around. Yeah. Boom, like that. That was an easy one. Here you go, number two. All right, number two. As good as the last one. What's one song you wish you had played on?

1:45:46That's, see, right there, that pause, there's so many. I've never thought about that. What do I wish I had played on?

1:45:57Jon McLaughlin:It's because the rich man is the man who doesn't want anything. You've never even thought about this. You just set your own trap.

1:46:06i could go the cheap route and just say well the streets have no name but that's a cheap answer you know let's come back to that one okay all right has any is that allowed in this lightning round it's you won't be asked back but we'll we'll look back um okay how about this now these i want to tell you you're in the safe space with these next couple because I know you're going to be like no you can get me in trouble if you hadn't married your wife no I'm kidding favorite album I had another girlfriend what I wanted you to say did you guys ever watch Dallas? and then we were just going to follow that up so favorite album you've produced now what I want to qualify this with because I'm not trying to get you in trouble I mean it can be holistically the fun you had the players, the artists, the songs.

1:47:00Jon McLaughlin:We're not saying maybe this isn't the best album. Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. Your favorite experience. I can answer that one. I think because there was an album that framed me. Wow. And so I'll say, I mean, I don't even know how to quantify favorite experience because actually the experience is so meaningful, but it had so many different emotions attached to it. There's a bit of combativeness to it. but it was the record as far as when I produced, it was a part of it. It, it shaped everything for me and it, and it elevated me. It did so many things and I'm so grateful. And again, it's not saying it's the best record.

1:47:43Yeah. It's, it's a, it's, it was a wonderful record and it, it's a golden road with Keith Urban. Oh yeah. What a record. And, and I, and I, you know, again, I say that that same year. I mean, this is, and this sounds pretty self aggrandizing, but I don't mean it. That same year, it was a really seminal year because I also started producing Rascal Flatts that year, and we did the song called What Hurts the Most, and Life is a Highway, and My Wish. So those records, I mean, so either one of them would have been fine, but those were serious experiences. I'm still thinking about the other question, but I'm not letting that go, but keep going.

1:48:27I just see one of your eyes wandering.

1:48:29Jon McLaughlin:Can we zoom in a little more and do favorite song you've produced? Yeah, that gets tougher. And here's the honest answer. I wish I remembered all the songs that I produced. I was going to say, it's a lot of this one. When the dementia starts kicking in about this time of day. Favorite song that I produced. there's no the answer is I don't have one and it's because I I don't think of it in those I could I could answer a month ago a month and a half ago I did a song with Ashley Cook called The F Word that I absolutely love and I love the title obviously there's some double entendre there yeah we know what the F word is, right?

1:49:25Forgive. Sorry, what is your? Faith. Forever. Forever. You don't say that in young. And so in truth, and it's not me copping out, I know I had a great first answer. And I'm going to relive all this too on my drive back to my house. You're going to call me. Because I am determined to answer the second question. That question is an honest answer. I don't have one. That is the truth. Well, let me addendum that question by saying this, is there a song that every time, and it could be a lot of songs, but is there a song, like if you're driving home today and you have the country radio station on and it comes on in a song you've produced, you're always like, ah, you smile and you turn it up.

1:50:07Most of them, no. I always think, God, I could have done that. Really? Oh, yeah, no. That's the hardest. You're hearing the thing that's not there or the thing you did too much or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that funny? There was that song. This is so non-lightning. I'm going to get off on another tangent. Is that a little louder? No, please. Go for it. The first studio song, I'm mentioning Rascal Flatts. We had a wonderful run on making some, what I thought were some pretty good records. The first song I did with them was that cover of Life is a Highway. So that didn't really count because that wasn't going to be on a record.

1:50:46It ended up being on. But the first song that I did with them was called What Hurts the Most. Yeah, yeah. And it was just a great song. I mean, every bit of that, Jeff Steele, and I apologize, I can't remember who wrote that with. It's horrible. And I remember Justin Neibank and I had, he mixed it. I was producing it. We had done it at the studio. They didn't have any big speakers in the wall. And I got in my car. They were playing it on the radio. for the first time. Here's Rascal Fights. You know, they had some great hits before I got on. I started producing them, right? So this is my first one.

1:51:24There's quite an expectation. I had a little padding because Keith was becoming, you know. And I got in my car in the driveway. Somebody said it's on Jerry House's show on WSIX. Crank on. And the sub bass was so massive. Never heard anything like that on country music. I almost threw up. I thought I just I called up Justin Nebeck and I said I think we should have had some some bigger monitors to you know I thought this is going to tank their career oh my I almost threw up I just thought the bass is way too loud how could I not have heard that the reason I did is because all the speakers I listen on are little yeah yeah at a quiet and um it it it didn't tank their career and it didn't take mine.

1:52:12But yeah, everything that I usually work on, I listen to it with absolute loathing for at least two years. You know, once in a while, now I can hear something maybe 30 years later that I go, oh, that sounds pretty good. Yeah. So, yeah. But that's, but it doesn't, I think part of the idea of producing for me is that I go after the album cuts. I mean, I don't hear any difference from the singles. I know what the drivers are, but I just, I love the songs. So consequently, all the songs I think are going to be really good, just nobody cares about them. Yeah, right. So that's true. Yeah, it's funny.

1:52:53What's that? I don't know who the quote is by, but, you know, all good art is abandoned. Like the idea that, like, at some point you just have to say it's done. Is that a screen scene? Yeah, or it could have been Weird Al. But, you know, just the idea that, like, I saw Derek Wells, you know, posted something about this the other day, and I thought it was so true. He was doing a podcast, and they had a little clip fit on his feed. And Derek was just saying, I don't know anybody that's ever gone working on a record, like, all right, yeah, that feels good. We're done. You know, it's just you have a date, you have a time, and you have to turn in.

1:53:26And so I think, you know, it's such a natural process for all of us to hear something. Be like, God, why didn't I add that? Why is there so much of that or whatever? Because, you know, we're never done, right? Never. Never, and I think that also speaks to growth, and you can't separate that from who you are. So I think the key is to just not be so self-effacing to where you can't enjoy what you do to it. I can enjoy it, but I've never thought in terms of favorite, and like I said, I felt confident answering that one question only because it was what it meant. I don't know if it's better than other things or what.

1:54:08Because that's subjective, right? I mean, who of any of us can tell what's better? But that's human nature. I'd love to play it on that song. Wow, that was amazing you landed that. Yeah, but I don't even know if that's a true answer. I just felt the need to get beyond that. Our lightning round may take us to dusk. What phenomenal parts on that song. Steve Lugather. Good gracious mercy. Yeah. Steve Lugather. Okay. Last question. Be honest, though. There were 10 more, and you're just cutting it because you know I can't handle this. We just have favorite child. We have favorite wife. It's all favorites, and so we just saw how much you got stuck.

1:54:48Favorite host. I always ask one of my daughters. One of my daughters, she has four sons, and I go, okay, if you had to get rid of one of them. Oh, my gosh. Or you have to keep one. It's Sophie's choice. you know it's the worst thing we know you've thought about it we got to get rid of of course they look at me okay well what's good yeah yeah dad i got an answer but i'm not gonna tell you you're never gonna hear i've got an answer but i'm not gonna tell you okay final question if you wrote a book on being a dad what would it be called that's a great question It would be called Wait For It. Wow.

1:55:26Yeah. Tell me why. Well, were you rolling from the second I got in here? Well, I was literally about to say how you were talking about how you talk to your girls no less than three times a day, which blows my mind, by the way. Yeah. And I'm not cutting Elliot out, but he's a son. I love my parents, but if I called them once a month, that would be a lot. Yeah. You just call one. Yeah. Daughters, the dynamic is a little different, and you pay to get to that point, too. I will say that, Ashlyn and Maddie, if you ever hear this. I stand by my word. No, no, it just, it's, it is, everything is, it's, you don't get it all at once.

1:56:07You wait. You wait, and patience begets more patience, and it's always worth it. That'd be another one, too. I mean, the pain is, you can't take out, I'm going to back up. The only times I've ever learned anything in life is not through success. It's through pain. And so inevitably, when you're with a family, you raise a family, there is going to be pain. And you cannot, you know, of course, even when you get to the point of, in your life, when we all sit we're all sitting here with dads and we all say yes we all we all nodded when we said pain is only the way that you learn anything right what's the first thing you try to eradicate in your kids lives yeah yeah definitely they're smart mouths sorry what were you going to say and once you slap that out of them no you you you you make it your life's mission to to make sure that they don't face and we we justify it by saying or rationalize it by saying you know giving you a heads up, but only when you run into that cement wall, sometimes for the 10th time, that's when the epiphany comes.

1:57:20Yeah, that's right. And I'll say, you know, now, I mean, I'm in the next layer of life, which is, you know, I have five grandsons, and the oldest of which is six, but it's the same thing again. It's just, there's so much love, so much anticipation about a future that you, of course, you as God are imagining for these souls and you realize that you're not God and they're going to suffer the same things and so you wait, you wait for it and if you can sit in that stew I don't think you ever get used to it, I think you just you just you maybe you get used to the fact that you're not going to ever get used to it so there's, yeah it's music it's all the same stuff you know but yeah it's, what was my title now I've already forgotten, we've had a few.

1:58:11There'll be a few to pick from. But that's, but, yeah, it's, it's, it's worth it and, and, like my dad said when I was growing up and I, I was trying to get out of this grade on the math test, he said, don't you understand that this math class affects your music? He knew that anything music, I was like, what are you talking about? It's all the same thing. It's, there's nothing different. Your music is going to affect your math. Your baseball's going to affect It's like you can't extract one another. Here's not your spiritual side and your human side. It's all the same. Well, business and personal, which is funny.

1:58:51It's all that. But don't you guys agree that if you sit and you get quiet, you learn as much from watching and being part of the family. You don't own these kids. We don't own them. Yeah. So anyway.

1:59:10Jon McLaughlin:I mean, if there's anything that I've learned from being a dad, it is that I don't have control. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just sitting there. You just got to stay there. Be there for them. And even if you don't, I told my oldest daughter one time, we had her when we were about 24. And when she was 20, I said, hey, Ash, I'm sorry. I wasn't there for, you know, as much as I am for your other siblings because they were born at five-year increments. and she looked at me and she said, I don't know what you're talking about. Wow. I said, well, you know, I just wasn't there. She said, you were there. So, and it hit me.

1:59:48What a win. Well, yeah, I mean, I pulled the shade over her eyes. No, no, I was there. Even if mentally I wasn't there, you know, and that really made me feel a lot better too because, you know, when you're in your 20s, your mind's everywhere but in the moment. That's the one thing I think about people having the chance to have kids later in life because you've lived a little bit. But I think where your intentions are, I think that's what your kids feel. Yeah, that's a great word. What a great word. Yeah, it's not quality time. I don't buy that because quality time to who? But my intention was to love that girl.

2:00:32So, you know, it's just one of those things. it's unfolding so I don't really have I don't have any wisdom anymore. It's funny that you said that Dan. John and I talked about this I don't know if we talked about that on a podcast or something in conversation but I do feel like as my kids get older because I've messed so much stuff up and I'm full of all of my things but that's really my hope as much as anything with mine is that they as they get older that they know what my intent was because I didn't always achieve that but if they can you know if they can somebody says like what do you think your dad like you know what i know what he meant to do you know and he loved me and he did the best he could with that that to me is such a win because i'm gonna miss but that's that word it's funny you said that has been a word i've thought a lot about this year's i just really hope that my kids know my intent that they see that my intention is good whether that's always executed well or not you know they feel it in their bones even if they can't articulate it yeah i hope so I thought, and you guys have teenage girls?

2:01:32Is that what we were talking about?

2:01:34Jon McLaughlin:Almost. I have 12 and nine. 12 and nine. You see? And what about you? I'm not sure. Their names. I thought, and again, this sounds like I'm trying to get a favor from Vince Gilt, which I'm not. But his answer. Yeah. It wasn't the same question, so I loved his answer about having grandkids. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that answer? I do. No. I don't. What did he say? he said it I thought god I've known that but I never could articulate that he said that having grandkids for him this paraphrase is that it's it's not that the you know the cliche it is the cliche is true the cliches are true because they're there they've been done enough right yes you can't hand them back and that's a that's a lovely aspect of when you're tired and when they're running you around but but he said it's it's the first time that you you actually can say your kid says now I know how much you loved me yeah yeah yeah and us that's the that was the boy that was the gem man that that one you guys could have ended the whole podcast on yeah so yeah that is true yeah well again guys the new record is out when words aren't enough the only record the only and let me we really want to drill that in here the only record we would not suggest you don't go looking for solos thank you for i do appreciate you bringing that up um and thanks for the questions i mean you guys are this was great thank you so much for giving us your time about this as john said he called we were preparing for it and he's like so i had no i was like no john you don't need questions i have all the questions you just you help us stay on track so you will have done we just need to make sure that dave doesn't ask you eight hours of questions all the osmotic questions hey As Marek.