Forgiving Everyone All at Once with Ian Morgan Cron

0:05Jon McLaughlin:Hi, I'm Dave Barnes and I'm Jon McLaughlin and welcome to Dadville. Dadville is a podcast where we talk about life, love and the pursuit of awesome dadding. It's funny thoughts and deep talks. So please enjoy your time here in Dadville and enjoy this episode with Ian Morgan Cron.

0:30Listen, John. Yeah. I just, I have to get this off my chest. Do it. Yes, it's August now, but it's going to get chilly. And this feels like a time. August feels like the time to hit reset before the autumn rush begins. And honestly, I can't think of a better place to start than my closet.

0:46Jon McLaughlin:Dave, same page. That's why I love shopping at Quince. You always do that. Yeah. And here's why. They're all about fewer, better pieces. made with premium materials, built to last, and designed to become the things that you reach for every day. Like the ultra-soft organic cotton tape in premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I wear them all the time, almost early days. They have the fit and quality you'd expect from a luxury designer brand, John. You know, Quince works directly with ethical factories, and they just cut out the middleman. They're like, get out of here. So you're paying for exceptional quality instead of brand markups, you know, and keeping everything priced 50 % to 80 % less than similar brands.

1:28Quince has hotel quality, bedding, bath essentials, premium cookware, travel gear, and everyday essentials.

1:35Jon McLaughlin:Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash dadville. You get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. that's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash dadville

2:05we don't do that for every guest Ian but for you we do you know I feel so privileged well I don't know that we've ever had a better start that feels it felt really great coming off the top rope there Yeah.

2:18Jon McLaughlin:At the same time, I kind of want to redo it. Yeah, I know. I was a little flat. I'd practiced that for like an hour before, and it just feels really underwhelming once it came out. How are you, friend? Man, I'm all right. How are you doing? We're good. We're good. Well, I said we're. I speak in plural now, apparently. But, John, you can answer for me. I'm doing great. You know, I'm starting to notice as I get older that I'm beginning to look like a turtle. Oh, tell us more about this. the skinny neck and it's you like when turtles like do this thing you look very learned you got those glasses on seriously every time I go on a podcast which you know it's fairly often I kind of go kind of look at that a lot of it is the angles there it is there you go I need to get some work done oh look at that there you go just get a pull back just get some clips yeah just get some clips get some clips get some just yeah exactly that's what I'm going to do So how did Ian make his millions?

3:15Well, he did this thing called neck clips, and it's just a really cheap way.

3:20Jon McLaughlin:If you order a pair of readers on Amazon, you automatically get a pair. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They come with readers. Neck clips, that's what I'm going to get. So are you in Cali, is that right? No, I'm in Boulder, Colorado. Colorado, okay. Okay. And it was a C. That's where you live permanently? No, we live in Nashville, but we're here three to four months out of the year especially the summer i can't i cannot be in nashville in the summer yeah same but here we are where are you we're in nashville you're both in nashville i knew dave was okay yeah he's john lives across the street so he's literally right there right across it's a little cooler on the on the north side yeah he gets about two different yeah all right so so is that has boulder been like a recent thing or is that kind of a recent last couple years yeah um and we're thinking about moving here because it's pretty darn nice is it is this just because you love boulder i mean who doesn't love boulder but i mean it's a great town uh we just love the outdoors i mean we did my wife and i did a five or six mile hike in the mountains this morning you know starting at 6 30 so my you know my dogs love it i love it there's fly fishing when you say dogs you mean your friends or your actual dogs my actual dogs yeah okay yes i just don't know how hip we're talking right now if that's like yeah i mean i'm a pretty hip guy but i don't use the term dogs all that often to refer to other humans that's fair and you know we'll for the rest of the podcast i'll i'll file that away it's just That's not what you mean when you say dogs.

4:59You mean actual dogs. Actual canines. Canines, yeah. I think the only thing that intimidates me, we spent a couple of weeks in Colorado this summer, it's the elevation, man. It's like... Yeah. Because what are you at at Boulder?

5:18About maybe 6 ,200 feet. Yeah, yeah. It's not as bad as some of them, but it's... I was at 11 ,000 this morning. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

5:26Jon McLaughlin:Do you have any weird elevation stuff that happens to you? Do you have to acclimate when you guys get out there to stay for a while? Yeah, definitely. And I've been here for three months, and I'm still not fully acclimated. Really? No, no, no, no, no. When you come back down to sea level, do you find that you have superhuman strength? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I can run a six-minute mile. I'm ready to go. Oh, gosh. I'm so envious. So it's really just prepping for that one run. Just the one mile. Where you can use all of it for the... Then you're normal. Then I'm back to me. Your lungs have lost all their superpowers.

6:02So, folks, we are with Ian Crone here. And Ian, this is... We're just going to read your brag sheet here. So buckle up because this is a little bit of a This Is Your Life moment. But written in a much more conversational way. So here we go. Today on Dadville, we've got our friend Ian Morgan Crone with us. now if you spent any time around conversations about the enneagram over the last decade there's a pretty good chance ian had something to do with it he's the best-selling author of the road back to you which has sold more than a million copies and john just a quick count for you and i how many copies we sold are the books yeah i was actually running those numbers

6:38Jon McLaughlin:so okay um so ian's got about a million more than us about a million okay just around about it yeah just that one that is one of my favorite gags we do this and introduce countless people to the Enneagram, not as another personality test, but as a tool for understanding ourselves and the people we love a little bit better. Since then, he's written several more books, hosts the wildly popular Typology podcast, and spends a lot of his time helping leaders as the altitude. Businesses, churches, and families communicate better and grow in self-awareness. But what we love about Ian is that he brings a really unique perspective to all of this.

7:15He's been an Episcopal priest, a trained psychotherapist, and he's worked with everybody from Fortune 500 companies to parents just trying to figure out how to love their kids a little better. And because this is Dadville, we're especially excited to talk about what happens with all this personality stuff meets real life. Marriage, parenting, friendship, and becoming the kind of people we actually want to be. And just as an extra flex, he's a Dev Award winner. So y 'all can take that. Oh, come on. Where did you get that from? Just tell us. We have great research here. We scowled. For months. That is...

7:49I think you're the first podcast host I've ever been with who raised up that little piece of data about me. That's because we know. Well, you know, it's funny when I knew you initially as a music guy, like when I got to town, you know, 25 years ago, 26 years ago, I knew you as a songwriter. And so it's funny, you know, knowing what your career is now, because that was kind of how I thought about you for such a long time. and so when people you know would talk about your book initially i was like well hold on is that the that's the songwriter musician ian cron they're like yeah it's like oh okay i didn't know you could do that and we'll get to that because i told john i want to talk about that he said no no i want to talk about something else first and so john take us there just let's do it let's get weird

8:34Jon McLaughlin:let's get in the weeds first i just i want to say that my first uh introduction to you was the road back to you and i maybe dave had was one of the early people who had talked about yeah the enneagram and uh i had many friends who committed the cardinal sin of enneagram where they would type me and they'd be like oh you heard you're definitely a nine you're nine so for so long i was like i don't even know what this enneagram thing is but but i'm a nine apparently so eventually i bought that book and i skipped to the nine and i and i read the the nine chapter i'm like yeah i can see a lot of that that pretty much checks out and then i went back to the beginning i start reading i start reading i start reading and i get to the fours and it was like it was powerful it was like i knew i was a nine and i'm reading the four and i'm like i had never read something that felt so I felt so seen.

9:34Jon McLaughlin:It was really powerful, that book. I can't recommend it enough for anyone who hasn't read it yet. But I wanted to start with this. There's two fours. I'm in a four sandwich right now today is what this is. You are. Yeah. Fours unite. I wanted to start with your - But not too close. You need space for each other. Yeah, definitely. Unite, but in a, you know, not friendly. Everybody can be their own self. Within reason. Your relationship, I mean, this being Dadville, Well, you have a very interesting relationship, had an interesting relationship with your father that you've written about. And obviously, we don't have time to go into all the details, but it's a fascinating relationship.

10:15Jon McLaughlin:I wonder if you might tell us a little bit about that. Okay, so Dave, before I answer that question, did you notice how he said, now obviously we can't go into all the details about that here. that was his way of saying keep it short you neurotic don't go off on the dad thing absolutely don't get all weepy absolutely not no strings on the bridge okay yeah that's right no swelling strings yeah strings on the bridge every time no i take it back to now be a euphemism that i use all the time or like a great like uh like how would you even use that like just Don't make it sad. Hey, no strings on the bridge.

10:55Yeah. That's right. Ian, I'm a four. I want strings on the bridge the whole time. I know, man, but we'll have to have coffee to make that work. Okay. Let's get some coffee. We can go to Lady Bird Taco and just weep in the corner. Amen. Just weep in the corner. All right. Yeah. So my dad, my dad was a very, very complicated person. um chronic alcoholic uh died at 62 without ever really knowing a day of sobriety in his life in his adult life anyway um he was a mentally ill guy and um kind of borderline functional you know what i'm saying like he could he could hold a job for very short periods of time um and as you can imagine growing up in that environment you know i had a very i had a lot to work out starting at around age 27 i had a lot of dad stuff to work out followed by a good amount of mom stuff to work out for having stayed with dad yeah um and uh and you know um you know i'm 65 now and as a word of encouragement to people that are in the middle of working through difficult histories it really gets better if you're just honest and do the work that's in front of you that's been appointed for you like i'm not i was at i was at a retreat recently in new mexico and um they were going around in a circle and everybody was younger than i was and they were all there trying to find purpose and meaning right i i happened to go because i brought a client with me and who needs to help need some help finding purpose and meaning and uh they everyone's going around and they're talking about their angst and oh this and that and the next thing and and they get to me and i said i hate to be the bearer of bad news but i'm a ridiculously happy person i mean it's just but i i wasn't always uh i spent a good number of years in a pretty tortured place uh and i and i came by it honestly and um you know so it oh yes i i i carry that you know particular wound of uh of not having had a dad that was at all able to be present and in in my life i've reached a place of neutrality and compassion towards him yeah do you remember

13:25Jon McLaughlin:like when it it dawned on you that you were in sort of an abnormal you had an abnormal situation because you know kids you what do you know about the water you swim in you know yeah i i mean i think i figured this out pretty quick uh you know you all you have to do is go visit your friends houses yeah right so i mean you know their kids their dads are playing baseball with them going to games showing up at concerts you know uh at plays and my dad just didn't do any of that stuff so uh and you know i think there was a neighborhood conspiracy on the behalf of other parents that maybe my house wasn't the coolest place to hang out you know what i mean and um and so i think i figured this out pretty fast um you know elementary school like something something is well you're a four john right so you know there is this belief among fours that there is something unredeemably deficient about them and that there is some kind of fundamental flaw not not on the surface but at the core of their being right that everyone else seems to have something they don't and they can't name what that thing is right it's just an intuition right it's It's like a, it's a kind of a sense of persistent dis-ease in the world, right?

14:53Wow. And I got to say, you know, I came by that young. I mean, really young. And it largely was just about the environment I grew up in. Yeah. Did you have a moment where you, and by the way, I want to bring this up because we're really talking about this book you have, which is amazing, called Jesus, My Father, the CIA, and Me. So if people want to hear more about that, they can read that book. but but did you have a moment where you were able to forgive him or you know uh yeah what did that look like well i don't think there's ever um i mean i never had some kind of like epiphany uh you know standing on the rim of the grand canyon you know uh it was nothing like that it was a gradual softening and warming of my heart that just you know you just have to live long enough i mean that's just the thing you know what i mean like you you have to have enough of your own failures and to be able to realize you know what you know my dad was an unwell guy this wasn't personal yeah right like like it just wasn't personal if you if you'd put another kid in in my shoes in the exact same the exact same thing would have happened to them right yeah and you do at some point i think have to make the determination and the commitment that you are going to forgive your parents yeah and that that goes for everybody like that just doesn't go for people with really hard situations like you're just going to have to reach a point where you do that or you will be you will consign yourself to some kind of low-grade misery um and i think it's an i think it's a sign of mental health when someone is like you know what my parents did the best they could yeah they didn't you know they weren't really well equipped to do what they were doing um but they did what they could do and it's time to move on listen john yeah i just i have to get this off my chest do it yes it's august now but it's going to get chilly and this feels like a time august feels like the time yeah hit reset before autumn rush and honestly i can't think of a better place to

16:57Jon McLaughlin:start than my closet dave same page that's why i love shopping at quince you always say that yeah Yeah, and here's why. They're all about fewer, better pieces. Made with premium materials, built to last, and designed to become the things that you reach for every day. Like the ultra-soft organic cotton tape in premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I wear them all the time, almost every day. They have the fit and quality you'd expect from a luxury designer brand, John. You know, Quince works directly with ethical factories, and they just cut out the middleman. They're like, get out of here. So tired.

17:32Jon McLaughlin:So you're paying for exceptional quality instead of brand markups, you know, and keeping everything priced 50 % to 80 % less than similar brands. Quince has hotel quality, bedding, bath essentials, premium cookware, travel gear, and everyday essentials. Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash dadville. You get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash dadville. As I've gotten older, there's a really kind of wonderful one-two punch that comes that you said so well, Ian, where it's like one, you get old enough and you become a parent and you start going like, oh my gosh, this is harder than I thought.

18:25And now I understand why my parents would have done that. And I don't know what the heck I'm doing. Why would they have known what they were doing? So there's that piece that I think, you know, parenting can give you, as you said, getting older can give you. And then I think it's also the second thing of, you know, the forgiveness piece to me is so compelling. And I think for whatever they've done, to your point, like the things I've done to my children. but just going you know you either carry this stuff around with you and it weighs you down and really kills you I mean that's it's that it really causes death in your life or you choose to forgive and take on the weight of forgiveness which is a weight and it's a constant decision over and over you know I think that's what I've had to learn with some relationships I've been in or moments I've been really hurt by people is that forgiveness isn't like a one-time thing and it's gone.

19:21It's this real sense of like, Oh, that sparked up again. And in this moment, I forgive them, even though they're off living their life and doing the thing I had and I'm just going to, you know, and I think those two things can help so much in a parental relationship, even with mine who haven't caused some grief, you know, grievous sins to me. I mean, they, they've just done things that every parent would do. They're really great parents and we're great parents, but you know, still they're fallen humans. But that thing of like, you know, you just don't, you can't, the grace that comes with that of going, they were doing their best and pretty much everybody, whatever their situation was doing the best they could do with what they were given, you know?

20:00You know, I love that. And I love this other idea too, that kind of feathers beautifully with that. Like, you know, so I've been in a 12 step program a long time. Right. Uh, and for recovering alcoholics and drug addicts right and i um had a friend of mine one day a very wise guy very wise i mean seriously like going to those meetings is magic you know you put a you put a buck in the basket and i get more from that than i've ever gotten in therapy and i'm a therapist right so um this guy looked i was talking about needing to forgive somebody and this guy looked at me goes why don't you just forgive everybody he says why are you doing it one person at a time and i was like what he goes yeah you can do that and i'm like what a profound thought no i was like i was like why didn't no one ever say that to me before right so i went i was in percy warner park in nashville and i was right at that bench you know when you're making that little turn right on the road there and i just stood there and i just told the universe i'm letting everybody out of the penalty box everybody out of my penalty box yeah okay like i'm pretty much done carrying this resentment yeah yeah and and i think you know spiritually speaking you know i i would just say that you know i don't know if something if forgiveness is something that you you can do on your own unaided willpower yeah like i think it's actually something you can invite god to do in you and simply give him consent yeah yeah you know what i'm saying like like because i actually i I can't name them.

21:42I didn't have a moment that I authored where I went, oh, I forgive. It's like, no, just slowly over time by giving God consent, that just I woke up one day and realized I'm just not carrying that anymore.

21:58Jon McLaughlin:It's interesting because as you say that, that idea that your friend presented to you, it makes me think like I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's just life lived or mistakes made a thousand times and forgiving yourself or whatever but not everyone could hear that idea and maybe they could grasp it on a you know conceptual level but you you would have to get over some hump to be able to even really attempt at forgiving everyone you know what i mean i wonder what that thing is that you would have to check what box would you have to check in yourself yeah that's good where you could in earnest actually live in a way where yeah you can just simply forgive everyone you know oh man what a good question what a good thought i texted him that right before he asked it go ahead hmm uh so for me i i you know i think first i just didn't want to carry that stuff anymore and that stuff had done a lot of damage to me yeah um or i had allowed i don't know whatever it's just i it created a lot a lot of damage in my wake um and you know i was just so i was exhausted but i think a lot of times people don't want to give up resentments or pain because they've begun to organize their entire identity around them yeah yeah you know uh by the way fours are notorious for this right it's like well if i give up that pain what kinds of songs am i gonna write you know like what you know like you know uh you know it's like that's great right so it's like people do get so overly identified um so one time i was at a conference in florida i was speaking and they were doing a question and answer thing and so i'm on stage and uh the moderator is getting questions for me from the audience and a person uh said to me if you could ask you know the typical old trope you know if you could talk to your 21 year old self what would you say well the first thing i said is don't drink you know just don't do it but that's too late okay so then then i was like but it was so interesting what what came out of my mouth you ever have those moments where someone asks you a question in a sort of a kind of high pressure moment and something comes out of your mouth before you can stop it like like you're like it just came from someplace very deep yeah and i couldn't stop it i just said he said well what would you tell your 21 year old I said you are not what happened to you geez ways you're just not what happened to you and I think that's so much of the work in therapy and as a priest as a writer you know most of my books deal with these topics it's like helping people to craft a better story than the one they've been telling themselves and the one that was handed to them by somebody else like at some point you have to grow up and write your own story yeah and stop accepting this old script that was handed to you by parents churches wherever you know like you have not not that all of it was necessarily bad it just has to become yours yeah you have agency absolutely and so yeah i think it just took a long time to rinse it out i i just wish it could be shorter for people there's no hack there's just no hack for this work it's just right it's just time and commitment that is the work that you do though i mean you you are out there trying to shorten that amount of time for people wouldn't you say well i don't know if i'm trying to shorten it um because the time frame really has nothing i have no control over that um what i would say is that i'm i'm trying to bring comfort and consolation and maybe some instruction to people as to how it worked for me that's all i can talk about is my experience right like this is how it worked for me yeah or you know this is this is here are the mistakes i made as i tried to become the version of myself that i am today that I happen to really enjoy.

26:32But, you know, I just, I can't tell you what a gift it is to get up every day and in spite of everything that's happened, and there's been, I've had a lot of crap happen in my life, right? And just to be able to say thank you. You know, and just to be grateful for, but you have to be grateful for everything. You can't just be grateful for the stuff that was, you know really great cream cheese and frosting on it you know you you you have to be reach that i think it's the spiritual summit when you can finally say thank you for my alcoholic father thank you for my mother who was never there thank you for all the bullying thank you for all the songs i wrote thank you for you know what i'm saying like everything gets a thank you i think if you can go out saying thank you then you've reached the summit well it kind of infers i mean it's funny that you say that because it sort of infers you having to forgive everyone to get there because I don't know that you can thank I don't know that you can be thankful without forgiving everyone first because otherwise there's a grudge and then that thing I think it's so hard to redeem or let those things be redeemed if you still sort of you know hold that but it's really just freedom right I feel like that's as I get older that's one of the things that I think so much about is that so much of what Jesus is trying to do in my life is just free me.

27:53It's just, that's such a big thing. And to get me loose of things that either I've bound myself to or that have bound me. And I think like to be able to stand, as you said, at that summit and say those things, it's just freedom. It's just so much freedom. It's just the unencumbered spirit, you know, which is a powerful thing. Yeah. And by the way, it's your birthright. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's well said. Okay, watch me pivot. Watch this. Just watch me. I'm watching. So this is something I wanted to ask you with the music piece, right? So when you, how long did you do music in Nashville where it was like a full-time thing?

28:34Oh, man. I don't think I could ever say it was full-time. When I was living in Connecticut in the early 90s, got a publishing deal in Nashville. So I was flying in and out all the time. Wow. Right? And writing and stuff. I briefly had a record deal, which is, you know, when I went to see Odyssey, you know, I compared that to my record label experience. Okay, here come the sirens.

29:10Anyway, yeah, so that goes back into the 90s, you know, and still writing now. I still do co-writes, you know, pretty, pretty frequently. Oh, that's great. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So is there, cause I'm always fascinated by people who can sort of pivot in a way that, um, yeah, just they can pivot in and out of music like that. Because I think, you know, John and I talk about this a lot, but, um, which is a little bit of insider baseball, but you know, music is that weird profession where if you choose not to do it or do it as much, it's easy to be seen as a loss, you know, it's kind of like, oh, he couldn't keep it up or she couldn't do it.

29:52So she's doing something else. But I think what's so cool about your story is that you pivoted into something that's been wildly successful. Do you know what I mean? So it's not like, and so I was just going to, I wanted to ask you about that. Just kind of, what was that like? Was it hard to kind of go, I want to start spending more time on something else? Or was that something you were excited to sort of continue in a different vocational journey? okay so uh it's a great question um for a long time i was uh kind of ashamed of the fact that i wore so many hats so you know songwriter episcopal priest psychotherapist author speaker you know i'm saying like what do you do for a living like what are you like you are like you are like a tossed salad what what are you what what would you tell people back in those days I don't know.

30:45I would, for a long time, I'd be like, I don't know what day of the week is it? You know, because like if it's Friday, I guess I'm a songwriter. And, you know, because that was a day when I do co-writes. And then, you know, if, and then one day I was driving to Lady Lodge, actually. And I was in West Texas, right? And I, it suddenly dawned on me that my life's purpose was to help people enter into a deeper conversation with the mystery of their own lives. That was my life's mission. And then everything like weirdly like came together, right? And I realized, oh, yeah, you're a priest, a songwriter, an author, a therapist.

31:26It's like all of those things are in service to helping people enter into a deeper conversation with the mystery of their own lives. I mean, that's what a songwriter does. I mean, I don't know. For me.

31:39Jon McLaughlin:Definitely. You're just, I mean, great songwriters. at some level are always helping us to enter into this conversation with ourselves about who we are why we are where we're you know and i you know i think that's songwriting at its best and and so you know i just realized one day oh i was just educating myself in all these different pools and streams of ideas and but they were all trying to do the same thing and then blending and hybrids of them and you know and you know and um yeah it's been a crazy way to make a living but i don't think i'd like to do it any other way like if i just had to get up every day and go i'm a dentist yeah you know what i'm saying like yeah oh boy that i don't think that would have ended well that would have ended in tears so do you remember what your first when when did you first hear of enneagram yeah it was 1992 i was in graduate school to become a psychotherapist and i went on a retreat to a catholic retreat center in the mountains of colorado that's where they get you that's where they get you and elevation always there was a yeah Yeah.

32:56Yes. And so I found a copy of, I just happened on a copy of Richard Rohr's book, The Enneagram of Christian Perspective. So now, remember, I'm in graduate school training to be a psychotherapist. And I pick up this book and I'm like, wait a minute, where has this been? Yeah. Like I have been studying, you know, abnormal personality development and you know psychopharmacology and like i'm reading all the and i'm like this is genius yeah um and it's not perfect you know like the enneagram like here's the deal i am always the guy i think it disappoints people who's always trying to talk people off the enneagram ledge right like all these people discover the enneagram and they're just like oh my gosh it's like i'm like listen these are not tablets that were found in a cave in syria okay this is not like you know what i'm saying like this is not indiana jones material okay like it's just a kind of useful description of nine patterns of acting thinking and feeling that certain subsets of the population seem to exhibit so often that we should pay attention to them right that's all that's all

34:09Jon McLaughlin:it is yeah right so did you have mixed feelings about the i mean from my view like the explosion of Enneagram in the zeitgeist? Well. Probably helped books in. Yeah, I know. It didn't hurt. You know, I don't know. I don't think it hurt anybody per se. I mean, nothing fatal. I just think it's too easy. When people discover something, as you know this, right, and they get you know sort of entranced like they're just like oh my gosh you know and you get that you know glazy look in their eyes you know and you're like oh boy this is going to be a run uh and and you know it's like you know i get people about six months to chill out you know they can talk about it all they want for six months but after that i'm going to start like getting out my pruning shears you know like i just i don't really want to hear that you're about it all the time people ask me all the time like in our house like do you do you and your kids and your wife talk about the enneagram all the time i'm like heck no like i like we have lots of other things we talk about like yeah periodically it comes up but it's not like something we're obsessed with you know right so right i mean i'm glad it's it's had a up i think for the most part a positive impact on people if it just again if it just helps people get into that conversation with themselves about who they are okay that's a big win yeah right it's just a big win yeah it is i mean i'm an enthusiast so you can only imagine that like when i discovered it it was like i mean i think people were worried about me because it was just like oh my gosh have you taken this test do you know about this thing um but i mean it's still i mean you know i think i i don't know when i heard about it maybe 20 like 2003 or 4 maybe and still to this day I think about it almost daily in some application of my life you know and I don't talk about it all the time but it is extremely plug and play in my life with how it helps me understand people and myself especially um it's helped my marriage a ton so so I'm curious because this is dad but like how how do you think it's helped you as a parent like how how has it sort of played into parenting yeah you know we you sort of touched on this earlier but I was actually thinking while standing in the shower before this interview that I think if God has made a mistake, it's that he allows 27-year-olds to have children.

36:45And so it's like, no, seriously, like what was that? That certainly was, it's like, you know, what were you? At 27, I was a complete knucklehead. I was an absolute knucklehead. and uh and in fact i've had to tell my children individually and and very seriously you know hey i just need you to know i was growing up at the same time you were yeah yeah you know like i didn't know what i was doing you know i i really think people shouldn't be allowed to have children until they're at minimum 55 years old i mean that should be how this works i know that's not how it's gonna work but that's how it should work card and yeah yeah but think about it like procreate hold on a second when you're 27 years old or 30 years old or whatever you know you're in hustle mode you're out there still trying to construct an ego you're out there trying to construct a life you're trying to kill it you're trying to prove something to yourself and to others you're completely and utterly distracted by that by that project and your kids are growing up and you're running around trying to you know it's like you should at 55 plus the hustle mode is done I hope hustle mode is done by then and you're like no now I'm smart enough to have kids but I don't know you just can't pick them up you just can't pick them up no but you have enough money to pay for someone to do that touche touche John to improve your sleep it's not complicated No, it's simple.