How to Build a Chore Chart with Your Bare Hands

0:07Jon McLaughlin:Hi, I'm Dave Barnes. And I'm Jon McLaughlin. And welcome to Dadville. Dadville is a podcast where we talk about life, love, and the pursuit of awesome dadding. It's funny thoughts and deep talks. So please, enjoy your time here in Dadville and enjoy this episode with... Dave and me. John. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back. Some of you right now are listening to this, and it's around spring break. You've either spring broken or you're about to spring break. Some of you are in the middle of it, and it means the world that on the beach, you've decided to listen to us. You've introduced us into your vacation.

0:51Put the noise cancellation on. Just block those waves out.

0:56Jon McLaughlin:Just listen to the sound waves of our voice. Oh, my gosh. Don't enjoy what you paid all this money for. And then some of you have decided to stay at home because you're like, this is ridiculous how much money we're spending on things. You don't want to be spring broke. Should we stop? I don't think we'll beat that. That was really good. Hey, Jason, edit that to the end. We want to work toward it. Which, you know, and look what I'm doing here, John, is it leads right into our conversation today. Yeah, it does. About dad guilt. something john and i've realized is we have we've looked we've gotten behind we've gotten behind the veil we've looked at the metrics the dadville metrics and we found what you guys like is when we're concise and we take a subject so you may want to move on to another podcast well we like we've seen you guys like when we do subjects and so we thought let's let's try to knock out some subjects that feel sort of universal for um potentially dads maybe some moms feel this too And for those kids in the back of the minivan, let's see what you learn.

1:54Jon McLaughlin:Well, look, I will say, I'll start off by saying, you know, you said maybe some of the moms feel this as well. Surely, first off, I would hope no one feels undue guilt. Yeah. I mean, there's a time for guilt. Yeah. You know, if it's due. But I think moms get it unfairly. Yeah, yeah. Moms have an unfair portion of mom guilt versus dad guilt. With a lot of the typical kind of ways that guilt comes about, like working too much or whatever. Dad guilt also should be the band that we start in our 60s. I mean, let's do it. I already have some songs. Actually, if you just look at my last record, there's a couple there.

2:40Okay, so we're just going to kind of go through these with some subjects that I think that we both sort of feel like pertain to dad guilt. some of it is stuff people talk about a lot of it is like stuff that dads just kind of don't bring up but so the first is the work versus presence conundrum yeah and you know i think for you and i wonder how you feel about this but ours is kind of tricky because like when we're gone playing shows you're just gone so there's no like i should be more attentive because you aren't there yeah but man something that i feel like is really weird about what we do is like but when we're home We're really home.

3:18You're in your backyard. I'm in my backyard working in our studios. We're writing with other people, but mostly around. For those who don't know, a typical writing day, if John and I are writing on our own, can be whatever. We can start that at noon and be done at 2. You can start at 8 and be done at 5. But it's on us. It's just on me and you on those days we're writing for ourselves, by ourselves. But if we're writing with other people, those are traditionally 10 or 11 a.m. two three four late would be five yeah it feels like which i do almost never yeah and you do quite yeah yeah yeah so you know you're around like you're around and those are those can be movable like it's very common for somebody like hey at a meeting of this morning can we push to noon or 11 from 10 to 11 so you know it's malleable or like hey i've got a thing at two it's a i gotta be at you know and usually those are parental things yeah you know kids gotta yeah i gotta whatever whatever get a kid out early for dentist appointment which i kind of love it

4:16Jon McLaughlin:not to get in the weeds of that but i kind of love it when that happens because you more often than not you'll finish the song yeah yes you have this sort of like oh i thought we had till whenever yeah now we have till 145 yeah come 145 you're done yeah you're done someone said very wise it's one of my favorite songwriting quotes it takes the amount of time you have to write the song to write the song yeah so if you know you have two hours you kind of go okay let's get to it which is not always true but it's a general but like where do you live in that tension you know between the providing and being there you know what does that look like how do you navigate sort of that thing in the beginning i was i would say i was terrible at it but not so much because of the dad guilt i think it was more husband guilt oh wow like that's interesting Because when the kids are younger, they're just in the house.

5:11Jon McLaughlin:And it's like you feel the other side of the sword. Yeah, I get that. Working, quote, from home. I mean, we're working from home, but thankfully not in the actual house. Yeah. Which just would not work. Yeah, that's it. It has been a game changer for Amy and I for me to have a structure on our property that is not attached to that house. Which is funny because it's only feet away from the house. Same as mine. You just can't, I can't be in the house. Yeah. But it's like when we're in the early days when, you know, babies are crying, just people are crying. Yeah. Stuff is everywhere. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to leave.

5:56Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. But I'm going to be right over there. Yeah. And also, there's nothing that is, I mean, there's not a meeting. Yeah. There's not like a Zoom meeting with a board. Yeah. Everything is malleable. It's so malleable. So it's like, but, and I think the reason why I'm better at it now than I used to be is I've fudged it a while. Yeah. I've stayed in the house and I've moved my schedule around. Yeah. And after doing that for so long, I'm like, I do, the way that we're set up is, I mean, I got to make some money. Yeah. I got to pay the bills. Oh, yeah. and if I don't come up with like a little thing on the piano today that yeah that means I don't have a song yeah in the future and then I don't have a record in the future and then I don't have a tour in the future and then I don't have you know yeah so it's so it would be a lot easier sometimes if it were just a one-to-one ratio yeah like I have to clock in someplace yeah then it would just be black and white yeah but in the beginning I think it it was really hard for me to walk away from like a crazy scene.

7:05Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. I felt guilty, but it was like the kids were younger. It was husband guilt. It wasn't dad guilt. That's a good way to put that. Yeah, you weren't feeling like I'm not somewhere the kids need me to be. Right. It was I'm not somewhere my wife needs me to be. Yeah. And again, I think it's a little on the nose and a little like insider baseball, but our job is weird because, you know, do you have to go back there right now and get that little idea it's like well i mean no but it's top of mind and i think maybe it'll generate another idea or maybe nothing's top of mind yeah and i'm gonna go back there and i'm gonna play around stare out the window yeah and see if something happens yeah it's and it takes really amazing spouses i think to have space for that in your marriage with someone that's creative because it really so much of it is sort of sitting around trying to start a fire and sometimes the fire starts not done so like well what'd you what'd you do how was the fire and you're like oh yeah nothing wait so you're back there for three hours and you got no fire and it's like no there's no fire and then you know to you come you come in and it's all i know we've talked about this on here before this is all my baggage this is not a yeah but the two questions that can be triggering are like so what'd you do today or or what do you have to do today like in the the morning version is what do you have to do yeah and you know when i'm in a bad place it i hear it as like you don't have anything that you have to do because you don't have a job because you don't work yeah so what do you what excuse are you gonna give me that you have to leave yeah you gotta do something you know yeah it's it's it's a tricky thing i think which kind of also leans into that idea of like the feeling of missing things even when you're doing the right thing yeah so then that's like touring or yeah you have a right that's like on the books or someone's like hey i need you to re-sing that vocal so i can get the mix done right which is funny because again for our work which is again very nuanced there's just i mean i laughed with a friend of mine the other day because he's got like nothing but he showed me his schedule for the week on his phone and it's nothing but deadlines yeah and he's like this is yeah that's what i do and he was great with it deadlines this is my life this is how i work yeah and i literally said other than being at a show by sound check at 5 30 play the show at 7 30 and you got to write at 11.

9:24I don't really have deadlines for anything. Yeah. Now to say, and he laughed cause he's like, that's my nightmare, which I need to hear people say that because I can shame myself into like, you just live this Peter Pan lifestyle. And it's like, it takes, we've talked about this. It takes a weird skillset to do what we do because you have to be, you have to just have a, your brain has to be a certain kind of brain to just go. I'm kind of all, I can pivot at any moment. Like if that gets canceled, I know how to fill the day up or, you know if last minute you have a show pop up I can make that happen two days from now you know or a write that pops up somebody texts that morning hey can you I need a song for the record I thought of you today can you write at 10 and it's 8 30 you're like yeah I can do that so it does take a skill set but I think there's also a piece where it's like that's kind of unfamiliar to me when I have to be somewhere and then something else pops up with the kids or the family it's a really weird struggle for me that I think a lot of you know dads would say oh dude that's every day for me yeah you know like I can never quite make it to the softball practice because I've got you know work until five or whatever and so I do feel like I think generally what a struggle of mine with dad guilt that I think may not be particular to me but I just have I finally figured this out a couple years ago I just have so much FOMO so so it is it is a little paternal and then I want to be there and I want them to see that I'm there but like it's as much I just hate missing things.

10:46Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. I just carry so much weight around like, you know, and I can get a little too this way, but I'm like, that's the last play he'll do in that grade. That's the last game he'll play with that team. That's the last, and which is ridiculous because you can spiral into oblivion with that mindset. Yeah. But I know for me that animates so many of my decisions. Yeah. Of feeling like for better or worse, I'm like, well, I just want to miss it. It's not even, it's a selfish endeavor. It's not even like. Well, and, you know, you're probably never going to regret it. Yeah. It's like one of the areas of life that does feel pretty black and white in that, like, if I lean this way toward, like, going to the play or going to even the practice.

11:31Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. I'm never going to look back and be like, guys, I spent too much time with my family. What a waste of time. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Which isn't that funny? I could have made more money. Yeah. No one says that. I think that's such an interesting, I think that's a very wise thing to keep in your mind's eye. Yeah. As you make decisions, it's kind of like, you know, it's that trope. It's like, you know, you think of all the men on their deathbed and no one is ever like, gosh, I just should have worked 10 more hours a week. Yeah. Like no one ever says that. But I think it's hard to hold space to that, one, just as an ideology.

12:09But two, I think we do need to make money. So it's like you can just, you'll go, I don't care if you're right. Bills don't change because I'm going to feel bad later. Yeah. So I think there's also that pull.

12:18Jon McLaughlin:It's like that Tim McGraw song, Live Like You're Dying. Oh, yeah. Which is great. I thought you were going Indian Outlaw. But yes, that one too is great. But it's like, you can't realistically live your life. You can for like a week. As if you're dying every day. You know, it's like it's a great idea in the short term. but I think you have to be dying to live like you're dying well and I think that you know this is why this is such a I think an interesting conversation is because at some point sacrifices like you just have to be made and you have to go like hey bud like I'm doing the show I can't I can't be at your last game the championship game it's like those things just I mean they just happen and you have to reconcile yeah that's just because another thing that I need to think about and I'm sure this is on some level universal what takes me out of like when I am there the whole sort of cliche like when you're there you're not really there yeah still at work or whatever that's not necessarily a struggle for me in terms of like um you know thinking about I'm not like sitting there playing a game with my kids but in my mind I'm thinking of like a set list or something like that the only time that that kind of feels like that is if i'm if i have like a 6 a.m flight the next day because i'm leaving for a tour yeah then it's kind of tough but but even then it's like what's taking me away is just the fact that i don't want to leave and so i'm trying to be so present that i'm not present yeah but what i need to think of is you know what tends to take me out of the moment is when i'm stressed about finances or something like that that is my thing that oh that gets you that pulls you away that pulls me away yeah yeah which you know like for for amy she that is not her thing she doesn't yeah worry about finances that's not everyone's thing some people worry about health or some you know whatever it is for me i when i do if if i lean too far into like the i'm gonna go to every practice i'm gonna go i'm gonna put work way down on the priority list or whatever eventually it will lead me to a spot where okay now i'm stressed yeah and then i'm there but i'm stressed and i don't want to be you know that i'm irritable and you know so it is a balance on some level well it's funny that goes into the second thing you know we were going to talk about is that idea of being home but not really yeah and for me I'm I wish I was more like you but I'm so the opposite like I think there's nothing that's harder for me maybe as a dad than being present because my brain is just so it's just everywhere all the time you know and a lot of that is you know uh on me for you know not not just slowing my brain down and enjoying playing basketball with the kids last night like i did which was great because i it's like it took me a minute but i got there and it was so much fun yeah but you know i just i'm so easily distracted and it's really hard for me to pull everything that's happening in my brain into the moment you know and and it be be it like you said work stress financial stress phones is a real struggle with me uh and so i think that's another place i that's probably one of the things I feel the most I think of these maybe the most dad guilt around is just my inability to like really be where I am because I'm you know either thinking of whatever just name something it doesn't even work it can be anything you know how Arsenal is doing just slow in which you have the gift of like you could talk about that with your kids because they follow Arsenal yeah it's something we can share Yeah.

16:08But I think like, you know, I can just I just zone out so easily in any way. I just something, you know, one of the kids can start talking and suddenly I realized like they've been talking for a minute and I have no idea what they're talking about. You know, and so I think for me, if I carry, I carry guilt in a couple of ways, but that is definitely, I'm ready for my kids being adults and saying like, hey, we love you. And you were, you've been a great dad, but man, that was tough. It was tough feeling like you were physically with us. Yeah. Because I think, you know, where, you know, maybe some dads could feel like, gosh, I just don't spend a lot of time, as much time with my kids because, you know, I have to be at work from these hours.

16:50I think it's easy for me to feel like, well, I spend a lot of time with my kids. My kids are like, well, yeah, but like, nah. Yeah. Right. Are you there? You know, like.

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18:37Jon McLaughlin:yeah and i wonder if that would be true like if they really do feel that way yeah or but but i think those moments where you do notice like what you're describing where you weren't paying attention or whatever i think those it's like reading you know like a hundred great reviews for your album and the one bad one yeah yeah it's like that moment that i talked about on the podcast a few episodes ago where livy and i were hanging and i asked about something and she was like okay this is how i know you don't listen to me yes yes i still think about that like every other day yeah and we've talked i i apologize and it's fine yeah but just those moments yeah like you're describing where it's like i i think because i can empathize with with how she felt in that moment which hurts anytime you're talking with a friend and they tell you a story and you're like yeah you told me that so do you not remember yeah anything about this am i just a warm body that you're speaking to right now and then it's it's her dad you know yeah yeah so i think it's probably i don't know i wonder if your kids would actually feel that way yeah or you just have such a eye on well you know the good thing i will say this to to your point about live like they're they are good about and maybe this is the only time they feel it is when they say it but they will say like dad could you please get off your phone yeah or like hey would you listen to me like look at me or something which probably when they stop doing that is means it's it's worse it's gotten really bad it's gotten really i will say and this is not a paid promotion but i bought one of those bricks do you know about those and uh it's like a little tile you put on here so this is an example of like yesterday we've talked about yeah here it is yeah uh i don't know if we talked on the pod about it But it's great.

20:26It's been, it's really helpful because you put your phone up to it and it'll brick whatever apps you want it to. And that's been, and honestly, I've been off Twitter for Lent, which has given me, I'm embarrassed to say how much time back.

20:41Jon McLaughlin:I mean, I gave up Instagram for Lent. And it almost takes the phone out of the equation. It does. I agree. I agree. Because I'm like, I could check the weather again. Yeah. but it's probably, you know, it's going to be cloudy. Yeah, it's an... Let's see, what is the weather in Omaha? I haven't checked the weather in Omaha in forever. Okay, where are you on comparing yourself with other dads? Like, where do you sit in that dad guilt, you know, space-time continuum? You know, it's funny because the... This is maybe top of mind because we were just talking about kind of the early dad stages, but to reiterate the point that I was for a long time bad about being disciplined about work i would feel i would compare myself with dads when i would notice oh this is like the third or fourth thing i've kind of been at with the kids where i'm the only dad it's like it's me and amy and a bunch of moms and you know i'm like i should be i should be working right now then you start thinking like is everyone thinking how did they live their life Do they have oil money?

21:59Jon McLaughlin:Boy, Dadville must be doing well. It's got to be olive oil money. They don't seem like the type. Olive oil money. You know what's funny when you say that? I think of that the other way. I can almost, I've noticed in my heart times where I feel prideful. Because I'm like, look at the dad who's here. Well, maybe I felt that way the first two times. And then after four times, I'm like. Oh, let me tell you. let me add to that i've gotten now with annie i'll be like can you find out if other dads will be there oh because i i'm like now i'm like i don't i don't i mean sometimes it's great and i'm glad to be there but a lot of times i'm like i don't that's a little it just yeah it gets a weird yeah it just gets a little weird yeah you know uh you know and sometimes i feel like it's i don't know if this is necessarily this doesn't have to be comparison my if i'm completely truthful full there was a little tinge of comparison with this but it but it benefited me greatly our friend matt layman years ago was telling me about a trip that he took with his son and they just the two of them and they went to dc and it was this great trip and it started with sort of like maybe it's guilt maybe it's comparison i'm like i haven't done i haven't even thought about doing that why didn't i think yeah i wouldn't do that and so i did it and it was i mean two of the highlights of my life were these two trips that i took with the girls yeah just the two of us you know and i i don't know that i would have done that had i not had that moment where i'm kind of feeling jealous and i'm comparing yeah yeah yeah it can it can spur great things yeah Yeah, I think what I get the most envious of in other dads is intentionality.

23:51That's the piece. Like when I get around really intentional dads, it really sparks something in me that's like, man, they are just, they're thinking of everything. You know, like those trips is one. Their kids are like opening letters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my dad writes me a letter every morning.

24:08Jon McLaughlin:Does your dad not? Do you guys not have stationary? Oh, yeah. And does he do Spanish Wednesdays where he does it in Spanish just so you want you to learn Spanish? I was with a really dear friend of mine this weekend, a shout-out, Jared Greger, who was in Norman. I played a show there, and we got to hang for the day. And Jared is one, just one of my favorite people. He is truly one of the funniest people I know. And he makes me laugh about as hard as anybody can make me laugh. And so it was just good being with him. But he's got four daughters who are just the greatest. And it was one of those hysterical moments where we went to his house and, you know, they had a chore chart and it had the names.

24:46And like on cue, one of the daughters walks in and is like talking to the other daughter, like, hey, do you want to swap? Because I can do your sous chef night, which means they help mom with my with like, you know, whatever duty. And she's like, no, I kind of. OK, well, and it was just like everything was so like drilled in. Like before I came, they cleaned the house because they knew I'd be there and I needed to use their shower to get ready for the show. And they cleaned the shower. And it was just like.

25:16Jon McLaughlin:Now, did you check to see if there was a price tag? Well, here's the thing. Here's what I found. They do give, they do allowances. Oh, I meant like he had just bought a chore chart and he's going to return it as soon as Dave's flight leaves. You know, it's funny that you say that. They did say, Dad, that's your handwriting. Which made me think like if Jared had like ran over before I got there and looked at everything. they did that they literally like oh that's interesting mom's hands are but but i just think jared you know they're doing a really good job with those girls of like and man i i you know i just man annie and i i don't know i've thought about this so much i don't know if it's our it's probably all these things but i you know our impatience fact that we're both first children and don't have like we're just so self-motivated that we're we won't let our kids do things because they're not doing it right we're just like we'll just do it you know it's probably a lot of these dysfunctional things but i got so convicted in the word that's not right i got because it was more guilt and shame of just feeling like yeah i mean your kids are going to be great our kids will work for your kids probably lower level you know uh you know jobs and and it was funny because it was so sweet i just texted was like man i just want to say it was so fun being with y 'all so inspiring to see how great y 'all are doing with the girls and he just sent the sweetest thing back and because i was just like what are you doing he's like i'll just tell you it's really simple we We just have these, but that, that, that thing for me, I get a lot of dad guilt around like feeling like I'm really dropping the ball with giving them like chores and we have a chore chart and they're doing the things and this is what they do.

26:44And, you know, feeling like I'm spoiling my kids all the time. Yeah. You know, I feel that so much. Yeah.

26:50Jon McLaughlin:I do too. And I, I do think. I needed you to say that so bad. Truly. I mean, I, this is one of the things that I think about a lot because I, I, I just I feel like our life, like when you say one of the things was sous chef, first thing I'm thinking is, what a great idea. That's amazing. Isn't that a great idea? That's a great idea. But I'm like, our kids are too busy. Like our life barely has, it doesn't feel like our life has routine. because a lot of their um i mean this may be a cop-out but i'm like they do yes they they they do soccer both of them but they both do theater stuff and theater is not um like clockwork it's like yeah one day they they need these cast members oh right right right right right but some nights they don't have practice because they're working on with this different group you know so it's hard to have a routine yeah and that's why i don't feel guilty at all about not having a yeah i just feel i don't know man i i this weekend was so fun but i definitely felt like it was it was and i think you made a great point and this can't be said enough there are good things that come from this like it really annie and i sat down she's like hey let's let's just do better with this let's maybe see what jared says see if there's some stuff we can implement into our kids in our life so it doesn't all have to be this sort of black hole of guilt and shame totally i think there's great things to get mode or just great ideas if even if that's the way to say it and it feels like it feels like that old like you know when's the best time to plant a tree yeah 50 years ago yeah 50 second best is today so it's like forget about the fact that you haven't had a chore chart if you want a chore chart just start it now or whatever yeah but man i mean you want to see me get triggered it's in two kinds of conversations one like sorry he's late coming in I have him cleaning the tires because it's Wednesday.

28:54He'll be, and then he'll know that you wanted Pepsi. So I have him, I had him make some, you know, drinks for, you know, and I'm like, oh my God. Or it's like, you know, what are you guys doing for spring break? Well, me and my daughter, or she's always wanted to see a ballet. And so we're flying to Russia to see, you know, uh, Shubhyshnikov's, um, Swan dive river. and it's, you know, or like, you know, me and my son, he just really loves baseball and he's always wanted to see the Indians place. We're going up to Cleveland for two nights.

29:28Jon McLaughlin:He's already met all of the unhoused here, so we're going to a different community for him just to minister to them. It just pings something so deep in my soul where I'm just like, oh, I'm just dropping every ball there is to drop in these scenarios. It sounds cheesy, but it's true. It's like you wouldn't feel it if you didn't care and you didn't want it. Some of this, can I just overlay? I think this is a good place to say this. Can I just overlay this too? I think our generation, dare I say this, and people may stop listening at this point. You can attribute this to me, Dave, not John, because John didn't say this.

30:06I also think this is something that feels very particular to our generation of parents, this over-parenting. It's like we want our kid to have every experience, and we want to have the best relationship we can have with kids. And those are great things. But I think there's a little bit of this that you have to go like, hey, those are great intentions. I don't know that they're making your kid a better kid at some point. It's just you're giving them more experiences that you can relate to. But do kids that don't get to do that have worse relationships with their parents or end up worse kids? Of course they don't.

30:37Jon McLaughlin:Well, I think the chore chart is an interesting specific topic to zero in on because I would agree with you. It reminds me of what my dad said to me a year or two ago, which I think I've said on here that he said— Why didn't you get a real job? Yeah. And I'm like, Dad, why do you always have to start with that? No, I'm kidding. That's a total joke my dad loves. I was going to say, there's nobody that's more supportive than that. Exactly. No, but my dad said his generation, the sort of goal of parents was to raise well-adjusted kids who could live in the world and function. Yeah, I love this quote.

31:13Jon McLaughlin:And he's like, your generation seems to be, the goal is, I want to know my kid as much as I can tell my kid. Yeah. And he wasn't saying it in a judgmental, he wasn't saying like, our way is obviously better than your way. He was just like, this seems to be my observation. Yeah. and so i i totally agree with you that you can we our generation tends to like we're moving toward over parenting with every generation it seems but i do think that the the chore chart thing to me feels like an effort to to pull that back a little bit you know because it's like well So I want, that's an effort toward getting my kids to be more autonomous, more responsible, more, you know, all that kind of stuff.

32:05Jon McLaughlin:So I don't know. And I do think that you can just focus on it too much and you can parent, you know, the great moments out of your relationship with your kids.

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