How to Fix Your State’s Biggest Problems (Without Waiting on Politicians) with Robert Cunningham

32:03But I'm talking about cultural capital, political capital, influential capital, academic capital. I mean, America remains this still real unique society where Christians are throughout the halls of cultural power. And I just had for so long said, if we just started to say, hey, we can do a lot as just good old-fashioned, what the church has historically always done, just good old-fashioned Christian activism, creative Christian activism. Let's find a problem in our city. Let's fix it. And the way to fix it doesn't have to be, you know, elect the right person and persuade them towards that. Some of what I do is in the realm of policy, but it was born out of that, that we can actually get a lot done if we start to get – so the way I – and I think I may have shared this with you at lunch, Dave, the way I kind of viewed it was that Kentucky Christianity has a ton of compelling hardware, a lot of amazing churches, a lot of amazing followers of Jesus and leadership positions.

33:14You know, a lot of business owners who are followers. There's just good Christian hardware throughout the state. And I view my role as kind of just writing the software. I felt like if I could just get the right folks at the table, depending upon the issue of justice or mercy that I'm trying to address, if I could just get the right people at the table and I could write the software, I can create the vision, I can sell them on it, and I can basically say, I need what the Lord has given you to steward it, whether it be your money or just your influence or whatever it is, I need that, but I can take that and we can actually get some stuff done.

33:59And so that's the philosophy of Christ for Kentucky. I do do a lot of public thought work, and that's a big part of my job, but that's just kind of unique to my wiring and my love for learning and teaching and all that. But a big part of what I do is not public theology, but public strategy. I serve as a Christian apologist and a Christian activist for the state of Kentucky. And so I will literally, guys, I get the whiteboard out and I'll just put what's wrong with Kentucky and how can we fix it? And what a novel. I know. I know.

34:34Jon McLaughlin:And so among the things that you guys are doing, I mean, just to pick a couple, can you talk about like the debt, the debt forgiveness and the social media stuff that you guys are doing? So a lot of the work that I do, this is part of the strategy, is kind of behind the scenes. I just think you can get a lot more done if you're not announcing it and trying to raise money off of it and things like that. But yeah, the one you brought up gets the most public attention because I did have to kind of bring the state of Kentucky into it. So very quickly, my son has an emergency appendectomy. He has his appendix removed.

35:11He has some complications. He had to end up staying in the hospital for a couple nights. We're leaving the hospital. He's fine. It went well. But we were checking out of the hospital, and the administrator came in, handed me a bill, and said, I'm so sorry, Mr. Cunningham. Your insurance is denied, and handed me a bill that would have ruined our life. Financially, it would have led to – it would have destroyed – I'm not talking about like our standard of living. I'm talking about like it would have completely disrupted our home. And I got on the phone, called the insurance company, worked it out.

35:50It was a little administrative error. And they fixed it, covered it. Still left with a bill that took me several months to pay off. But I just had the thought, how often does that happen in your state? And so I kind of just went down the rabbit hole of research on medical debt in Kentucky. And what I discovered is, you know, I don't know if y 'all know this, but Kentucky is one of the poorest. Your dad ministered in Mississippi for your Mississippi State fan. And our saying in Kentucky is thank God for Mississippi because it's Mississippi's last and then it's us. And poverty is true. So, yeah, Kentucky is – we're an impoverished state, particularly Eastern Kentucky, Appalachia.

36:35And what I realized in my research is that probably the biggest, easiest, quantifiable direct contribution to Kentucky's poverty is medical debt. So nationally, about 12 percent of Americans attribute unpaid medical bills to their financial struggles, to their poverty. in kentucky it 17 percent um in eastern kentucky appalachia 33 percent one in three of my eastern kentucky neighbors have uh medical debt in collections and i just was overwhelmed with like you know poverty is so complex y 'all know this like how do you solve poverty i mean man it's complex but this isn't complex this is a tangible what if we could just like eliminate the one of the it's the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in kentucky what if we could just eliminate that.

37:30And so I kind of just went down. I spent some time just researching the medical debt industry and how it works. And what I realized is that hospitals and medical providers carry a massive amount. They call it dormant debt. They carry a massive amount of medical debt owed by the poorest demographic. And this is debt they know they're never going to be able to collect, but they don't want it on their books because it's still in accounts receivable and it makes them look way more profitable than they are. So they wanted off their books. So what they do is they bundle it up. They sell it pennies on a dollar to collection agencies.

38:03And then the debt collectors hound the poor, kill their credit, wage garnishment. They make their life a living hell to collect this debt. And they know they're not going to get the full amount, but they can just squeeze as much out of the poor as they can. That's what they do. It's a very predatorial industry. And so I just had a thought, well, if debt is so cheap, on average, debt collectors buy $100 of medical debt for$1. That's how cheap you can buy it. Because again, the hospitals just wanted off their books. I said, I thought if medical debt is that cheap, why can't we just buy it and forgive it instead of collect it?

38:42Like simple. So then I just had the audacity to try to do that and realize that you can't just walk into a hospital and buy medical debt like you're going to the grocery store, there are HIPAA laws, there are regulations and all that stuff. But I found an organization out of New York. It's a nonprofit that has mastered this game called Undo Medical. And they have lawyers, negotiators, they have everything you need to do this. I reached out to them. Long story short, was able to get them to partner with us in a statewide campaign to eliminate Kentucky's medical debt for the poorest demographic.

39:25And so we said the numbers are staggering. We had$250 million of debt that we could acquire or acquire that we could abolish for$1.25 million. $250 million of debt, if I come up with$1.25 million, we can we can get rid of it can i ask that those two numbers are so disparate who even comes up

39:55Jon McLaughlin:with 1.2 million dollars how does that number even found yeah there's a negotiation process um that i'm not privy to again there's hippo laws there's a negotiation process with medical providers um i think hospitals and i think they they are eager to to negotiate and work with an organization that isn't going to destroy the lives of these people, but will actually relieve them. And so anyway, I launched a campaign, a statewide campaign with this dream of a year of jubilee for the state of Kentucky, where we eradicate$250 million of debt. and it was a statewide initiative. It was important to me that the letters in the mail that they received that give them the good news that their debt is no more, it was important to me that those letters did not name my organization, Christ for Kentucky, but what my dream was was to establish a partnership with the local church in every county in Kentucky so that depending upon on where the beneficiaries live, when they got the letter in the mail, it was on behalf of that local church presence.

41:13So they actually have an on-the-ground incarnational place to go to thank, to join and all that. So statewide partnerships.

41:24Jon McLaughlin:I would have wanted them to at least film every single one. I'm like, I want to see every person opening this envelope. Oh, y 'all would... you would, we, we did a test run. I was like, this is too good to be true. So I did a test run and I, we did a 57 ,000 and it, it, it abolished about$10 million of debt just to see if the process would work. And just from that, the amount of, we can't, again, we can't know who these people are. We can't know. The only way we know the impact is if they on their own initiative, write us and thank us. But the thank yous, one, one, one person who was engaged, Eastern Kentucky, man who's engaged to his sweetheart, as he put it, it was such a sweet letter, and had a medical crisis.

42:09And they were deciding, he said, I've been saving to do a wedding for my sweetheart, had this medical crisis, and we were there trying to decide, do we pay off the medical debt, the medical bills, or do we have the wedding we were dreaming of? Got my letter in the mail, wrote me and said, you know, I mean, I'll start crying thinking about it. It's just ridiculous. One person had to have a leg amputated. I think it was diabetic. I had to have a leg amputated. And I love Kentucky. But he, in Kentucky verbiage, Eastern Kentucky verbiage, he said, I lost my leg and didn't know I was going to pay for it, but now I don't have to pay for it.

42:56And, uh, and now, now I can, I got, I got enough money to buy myself a new leg. You know, just like, I mean, just, just so anyway, it's, it's remarkable. So yeah, that would be, that would be a perfect example of, I have the freedom. One of the, one of my board members says, you know, I get to serve as a free agent for the kingdom of God in Kentucky. I have the freedom to just dream and go after Christ. We've done a ton with the child welfare crisis in our state. We're working currently on human trafficking in Kentucky, creative ideas around there. And then sometimes, yes, it does enter into the realm of public policy.

43:38So I know, I feel like I've done enough theological work to say this is the role of the church and this is the role of the state. And whenever there's a particular issue that I'm passionate about that fits the role of the state, that is where I am networking with legislators and folks in Frankfurt that the Lord has given me favor with to get policy passed that – like we did a very aggressive age verification law and pornography. Does Tennessee have an age verification law? I don't know. I don't know that. You need to look into that because y 'all are connected to everybody, and I can give you the playbook on this.

44:23But it's really simple. A lot of states are doing it now where you can require that any adult content that's transmitted into the state of Kentucky or to Tennessee implements a robust age verification process more than clicking I'm 18 and has to actually prove that you're 18 before, just like you would if you were going to do sports betting, before you can access the content. We passed a very aggressive age verification law, and immediately the major pornographers that received most of the traffic just removed their content from Kentucky rather than comply with our age verification.

45:06Jon McLaughlin:Wow. And then I can't share this now. I wish I could. If you had me on in a month, I'd be able to share it. But that remains like still, because the major players are out, but then there remains kind of just this sea of lesser sites. And, you know, this content is never ending and endless and stuff like that. And they're basically saying like, what are you going to do, sue us all? And so I'm working on something right now that my answer is like, yes, we actually can sue you all. And I figured out a way to do it. That's great. i'm laughing thinking of what i would want to be a part of the the board that comes up with the verification the age thing yeah i'm like let's play half the full house theme song and then and then you have to sing the rest of it you know that is you have just anything to do with the 90s finish this dave matthews So anyway, yeah, so I do get to work on some policy stuff, which is really fun for me.

46:16But most of my work is, like I said, just good old fashioned, outside the box, creative Christian activism, where I am networking and mobilizing and empowering just this significant resource that is Kentucky Christianity. all these amazing churches and significant institutions, all these amazing followers of Jesus who want to see their state different. But just, I have come to discover, need somebody whose full-time job is to just help them reimagine what that looks like.

46:53Jon McLaughlin:Well, when I heard about the, I mean, I want everything that you just mentioned, of course, as I'm sure a lot of our listeners are like, can we please bring this to Tennessee or whatever state they're listening from? But being a dad of two girls, 11 and 13, the stuff that you're doing with social media, I don't know if it's specific to just one platform at this point, but can you talk a little bit about that? And of course, that's like, how can we bring that to Tennessee?

47:28John, I wish I could. um i gotta i've got yeah yeah so um i am working with

47:41organizations that are really passionate about this and um and are really have expertise that don't have that's enough that honestly my job seems hard but it's not because what I essentially do is I will find the experts in all of these things, and I'll host a summit. I'll bring them together, and then I'll say, all right, y 'all write – I'll execute it, but y 'all help me think through a game plan for this. And so we're doing something with social media. We did – now, there was a bill that passed unanimously in the Kentucky House last session that ended up not getting a hearing in the Senate, that that's public.

48:33And it's a really cool, really cool legislative solution that I think is very unique. And if, Lord willing, we can see it passed in Kentucky, other states can replicate it. but it essentially requires meta snapchat snapchat meta and snapchat now i don't know meta and and tiktok all the big players that essentially they have ai technology in place and there's a huge lawsuit that i'm very proud of our attorney general russell coleman who who's who's the best attorney general in the country. He is, I love this man. He is a dear friend and he is, man, he's a man of character and he's just so refreshing in the world of politics.

49:20But anyway, he's, he's out in California right now leading this massive lawsuit against, against Meta. But what it would require is, um, is for, uh, social media companies to essentially use the same AI technology they already have in place to addict kids use that same technology to identify, protect, and curb the addictive nature of the algorithms and so forth. So it's a creative solution that social media companies can't say, oh, we can't pull this off this too much. We are able to say, you actually already have the technology in place to do this, to target and and entrap children while we're asking you use the same technology to protect them are you against that you know so anyway but um we're doing some creative stuff some of it um uh had me on and

50:14Jon McLaughlin:next quarter and i can speak more freely on it what feels like you said that that the bill that you mentioned passed unanimously in the house in in kentucky i don't know the details of you know what happened after that but it it feels like from my perspective i mean as a parent we're all for for this it seems to be one of those yeah those issues that it's like it feels like it's a matter of time maybe we got to find our way through the minutiae of the you know technical weeds of the red tape and what these companies are absolved of because of old laws and things like that, but do you feel optimistic of the way it's going?

51:00Yeah, I think we're living in the Wild West of this new era that's upon us, and unfortunately, before we catch our footing in the Wild West of the Internet and social media and stuff like that, we're going to enter into the Wild West of AI. So these are disorienting times, but I'm not as pessimistic as a lot of folks are. Not only because of my Christian convictions, I do believe the tomb is empty and the throne is occupied and everything's going to be okay. But I'm optimistic in the sense of the common grace of image bearers of God has always proven there's just something beautiful and unique about image bearers of God that you cannot replicate even through AI.

51:51And humanity always has a way of pivoting, evaluating, coming up with creative, genius solutions and ways forward. My prediction, I'll be honest with you, my prediction is that our children, when they're parents, will look at us and say, what were you all thinking? like our i think our children aren't going to let our their kids like even who knows what the tech will be at the time but i think they're going to be fundamentalists and i kind of want to be a fundamentalist in this area the more our research technology but i think they're going to look at like you know how like we look at our parents like y 'all smoke like two or three packs of cigarettes a day like what were you thinking like you're you're using lead paint and homes like what yeah yeah you didn't wear seat belts like how's that even possible i think they're going to look back on us and be like, you all handed us this with like literally a pathway into addiction and depths of evil and perversion that know no bounds.

52:59And y 'all just like gave it to us. So I just, I do think God's image has a way, the common grace within the collective image of God does have a way of self-correction and we'll figure it out. But I do think Christians ought to be, and this is a critique, I think. I think we ought to be at the forefront of these cultural movements and leading the charge.

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54:57Okay, you know that feeling when you're scrolling through your feed and it's just headlines, influencer drama, and a trend you don't even understand?

55:07Jon McLaughlin:100P. 100 p that's 100 and you kind of just accept it right and you instead of actually thinking about like what any of it means or how it's shaping you exact a moon yeah and that just means exactly i don't want to just consume everything john i want someone to actually help me make sense of it that's what i like about the subtext i knew that's where you're going listen it's hosted by lee camp and Savannah Locke. Lee is a retired theology professor who doesn't even own a smartphone, Dave. We love Lee. He's been on. We love him. Friend of the pod. Savannah's got a master's in Anabaptist studies.

55:45Jon McLaughlin:Did I say that correctly? Yeah, that's how amazing it is. We don't even know what that word means. We don't even know what it is. Anabaptist studies, but she's fully plugged into reality TV, movies, and whatever's trending. Yeah, so you get both sides. Both sides. Deep thinking and real cultural context together. They'll break down something like the Odyssey, the online frenzy before it even hits theaters, and what's actually going on in the film. What is going on? Or skinny culture, flop cameras, capitalism, U2's new record. Don't get me started. It's sharp, it's thoughtful, and it actually makes you think harder about what you're taking in.

56:20Jon McLaughlin:Search for the subtext wherever you get your podcasts. One of my favorite things about the podcast, Dave and I have been doing this for over six years now, is, you know, we're talking about social media right now. And, you know, we all, Dave and I have social media. I use it for my, you know, for my work and all that. And I can feel that, you know, the algorithm, of course, is getting to know me. And it's like, oh, you like this and you kind of feel this way about this. And so we can live in these sort of echo chambers and just be, our beliefs can be reinforced, which is fine. But the downside of that is I think any kind of opposing thought or viewpoint, a lot of times we can get the worst version of it.

57:16Jon McLaughlin:You know, we just get straw man arguments or just crazy fringe arguments. So what I love about the podcast is it gives us a chance to have the best version of whatever thing, someone coming on to hear about Chrysler, Kentucky. Maybe somebody who might see that phrase, they might immediately have some thoughts about what that organization is like. And then we get to have you on. And in long form, we get to hear about the amazing things that you're doing. And that's what I want. I want people to hear thoughtful, educated, well-intended ideas and all that. So, for me, I grew up in the church. and I have always been someone who, before I was even familiar with the term affirming or gay affirming, that's just how I felt.

58:22Jon McLaughlin:And I didn't grow up in an affirming church or anything like that. But that's just, I've spent hours in a church pew, not necessarily listening to a sermon that was inflammatory or crazy, but just feeling like on this one particular issue, I think the way that I feel about it personally is maybe not the way I'm supposed to feel about it, et cetera, et cetera. So anyway. And we're getting to know each other. Dave, if you want to just log off, this is turning into me and John. No, I'm front row. So I'm so glad to be a part of it. I'd love to hear how you, yeah, yeah. I'd love to hear how you, you know, when you say how I feel about this doesn't align with growing up at church.

59:16Help me understand those feelings.

59:19Jon McLaughlin:Well, the best way I would describe it is I, from a very young age, I heard, well, homosexuality is a sin.

59:34Jon McLaughlin:and you know i i wasn't i i didn't have some example of someone who was like well so-and-so always told me it wasn't a sin it was just i i heard it and i was like okay that's that's how we feel i don't why is it a sin i you know and i and i can't fully articulate exactly why i felt that way i've just always felt that way and you know i've there are of course

1:00:03Jon McLaughlin:many points in scripture where if you if you're going to build a case for homosexuality being a sin and the bible supporting it there's there there are scriptures there for sure and um and there are also you know there are you could build a case scripturally for um for the opposite of you to to be affirming and i am no bible scholar you know i've i've listened to um many sermons on this specifically because i want to get deeper into it of course and i've talked to many friends of mine i have you know a lot of gay people in my life who i love i have friends who our gay pastors, you know, and I've spoken to a lot of them.

1:00:56Jon McLaughlin:But you're someone who is, you're out there speaking about biblical sexuality, and I listened to a series of talks that you did down in Alabama. And I will say, I do think in general, I think we should talk about sex more in the church. So, I think it's great. But I was just thinking today, you know, if it felt organic, I wanted to just have a conversation for anyone who is listening, who is maybe hearing where I've come from, and they're like, that's kind of how I feel. Yeah. It would be a good opportunity maybe just to have a dialogue that isn't a cheap, you know meme real social media but but it's a thoughtful you know back and forth what what thoughts would you have for anyone listening who might fall in that category

1:01:58Yeah, man, so much I could say. By the way, I want to be respectful of y 'all's time. I didn't even do my research to know how long these episodes... They're six hours, so we're fine.

1:02:09Jon McLaughlin:The first day we do six hours and then we kind of get into it. Okay, okay. I might need seven. We'll see. And I do realize this is a huge topic that we're going to tackle in a few minutes. No, but I – John, I appreciate your willingness to even surface it, but what I really appreciate is the – you have very – people told you, like, you have very disarming, I would say, Christ-like countenance about you. Do you get that feedback a lot? I don't know that I have ever specifically gotten that feedback. that feedback you exude a uh there's there's a humility and uh and a uh yeah it's just it just aren't it's a disarming gentleness um thank you that's it's it's fun to have conversations in that way um unlike dave who's just you know it's tough to talk to the luddite it's tough yeah um yeah so so so much i could say i i do i in and for the listeners unaware of kind of my we talked a lot about kind of my public projects and strategic work.

1:03:24I do do also a fair amount of public thought work. Like I said, I'm interested in public theology. I love to put forth what I hope is a thoughtful, kind, loving, winsome, yet unapologetically historically Christian orthodox ethic into the culture. I love the challenge of reaching my neighbors with the Christian ethic in a unique way. And specifically, I do that mostly for Kentucky. I travel on average like once a month. I was with Dave's church last weekend. So I do some outside of Kentucky, but for the most part, that work is in Kentucky. And so I'm giving the context to listeners of the reason why John brought that up is one of the things that I do get asked to speak on and discuss quite a bit is human sexuality and gender.

1:04:21And I would say that that research project was born out of exactly what you're saying, is I became convinced that the essence of Christian public engagement around the issue of human sexuality had become an incredibly simplistic. I would say, gotcha, shallow, shallow answers to really deep questions and struggles. And essentially, the Christian ethic had been reduced down to exactly what you're saying. That's wrong. We believe that's wrong. Yeah. And I became overwhelmed with the idea, okay, I mean, I hold to the historic Christian sexual ethic. So yeah, I do believe God has a design for human sexuality, and any departure from that design is a form of disordered sexuality.

1:05:32And I would include my sexual brokenness and my story in that as well. But where is the Christian witness saying, this is what's right? And maybe, I don't even like the language right and wrong because I think that that's not very compelling. I felt this burden to say, not just is God's design for human sexuality right, but is God's design for human sexuality beautiful? I think beauty has a way of transcending cultural debates and arguments. I think, I mean, you all are in the world of art, so you know this. There is just by our design as image bearers, beauty captures us in a way that arguments can't.

1:06:17And so I went on a little research sabbatical to study essentially what is the beauty of sexuality according to the Christian worldview and tradition. And I came across John Paul's Theology of the Body. John Paul was a pretty conservative pope. and he was kind of right as the sexual revolution was taking off. He gave 139 lectures on human sexuality that got turned into his magnum opus, was Theology of the Body. And I'm a Protestant, but hopefully I'm a Protestant with enough humility to explore and consider the scholarship from other traditions. And what I discovered in his theology of the body was what I was looking for, which is the beauty of our bodies, the beauty of human sexuality, and more so the beauty of the story that our sexuality tells.

1:07:22And it is nothing short than the story of God's eternal love. the eternal exchange of love within the Trinity, God's love for us, that human sexuality is so unique in its prominence in the experience of the image bearer. It is the most powerful desire we experience. It is the most powerful love we experience. It hurts us more than anything else. It can take us to heights of joy and pleasure. It is unique eros love. Erotic love is unique love. And the way God designed that uniquely in humans is because it is a unique window into the divine mysteries of love. And I just discovered a story of sexual beauty that I felt like I want to tell the world.

1:08:13I'm not interested in ethical debates. I could do the Christian apologetic argument stuff, but I wanted to tell the story. I wanted to tell the world what I believe is a more beautiful story for human sexuality, and then just let all other competing stories of sexuality in our culture see if they can stand up to the beauty of how God designed sexuality, God designed male and female. And so that led to a research project and content, and I've spoken on it everywhere, and have heard – there's probably not a question you could ask me, including the one you just asked me, that I haven't heard before.

1:08:53John, if I could say anything, I would affirm what you have felt, that this sin, for the listeners that you can't see me doing air quotes, I'm not air quoting the fact that it is a sin, but I'm talking about that. it just is labeled as this is sin, this is wrong. That this sin has held unique. It's been singled out uniquely by American evangelicals. And even that is Christians unwittingly buying into what I'm about to describe for you. Christians have bought into something. I think what serves as the fundamental fallacy that is going on in our society when it comes to human sexuality and gender.

1:09:47Christians, without knowing, have bought into the exact same fallacy that I believe is behind the entire LGBTQ plus movement and the gender ideology. Everything, I think, comes down to one fallacy, and it's this. How do you define yourself? When you're talking about gay identity or gender identity, we focus so much on the words gay and gender when the real, the question of questions is that word identity. And the reason why, if I could just give language to maybe what you're feeling, the reason why I think there may have been some frustration or some unease, it didn't sit right with you, that this was kind of the one sin that got attention and singled out, and you felt like, can I call a sin, but I still want to be firming on stuff like that, is we have all bought into, and this is a long history that I'm not going to take the time to explain, but it goes all the way back to like Carl Truman in The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self outlines this in detail, but it goes all the way back to the philosophy of Rousseau, where he, essentially his philosophy convinced us to start looking inward for our identity.

1:11:11Who am I? How do I define myself? Historically, that was answered outside. I am a member of this family, or I am a whatever your trade may be. I am the father of this person. I'm the son of this person. And historically, the biggest answer is I am what my religion says I am. And so we defined ourselves externally, but Rousseau started to challenge that notion and say, no, no, no, we define ourselves internally. We have this self-autonomy, and we start to define ourselves internally to discover for yourself who are you, right? This language starts to feel familiar with our culture. and then after Rousseau it goes through this kind of process of uh the the philosophy comes out of the romantics that rightly recapture the power of beauty and emotions and all that stuff and so what started to happen with self-identity in western society is we started to find ourselves not just internally but by our internal emotions who am i it's what i feel um and that like i said with the vocation.

1:12:18We don't ask, is it an external contribution to society that allows me to provide for my dependents? We ask, what do I feel about my work?

1:12:24Jon McLaughlin:Right. You know, when you were saying that earlier, not to cut you off, but you know that John Adams quote where he said, I think it's a longer quote, but it's shortened. He says, I study politics and war so that my sons can study geography and economics so that their sons can study art. in philosophy. I love it. And I wonder if that, when I hear that, I'm like, something about that feels like the natural pull. And maybe you're, would you agree with that? Or are you just saying we have taken it too far? We've abused it? Yeah. So, I think what happened is we started to define ourselves by our emotions, essentially, our authentic emotions.

1:13:11And Christians do this. Christians interpret their – I think I said this when I was at the conference with Dave's church last week in Nashville. Christians no longer say, Jesus loves me. This I know for the Bible tells me so. They say, Jesus loves me. This I hope if my authentic emotions can perfectly get captured by the truth that I feel stirred and I feel loved by Jesus. And we do this. I mean, you know, there are so many divorces in our society right now for one reason. I don't feel fulfilled in marriage anymore. My internal authentic emotions are not aligned anymore. And so the external vows that I took aren't as important as my internal feelings.

1:13:59But then what happened, and I promise you I'm landing the plane here. Internal emotional identity. And then Freud comes along and notices what is true. What's the most powerful emotion we experience? Well, it's sexual emotions, it's sexual desires, the power of eros within us. And Freudian, we are still a Freudian society, even though a lot of his theories have been rejected, but we're still a Freudian society, which essentially says, now who are you? You are your internal sexual desires. and we have taken human sexuality and we have turned that into an identity issue and this is why um with my um you know my my my neighbors and friends who um who are fully embraced in into the lgbtq world ideology embrace identity all stuff this is why with those friends we can agree to disagree on every single issue.

1:15:06Even politics, as crazy as politics has become, we can still disagree on every issue and still be friends. But on this one singular issue, we can't. We can't disagree on this one sexual identity issue because my sexuality is no longer an opinion I hold or actions I enact or practices that I'm doing or desires I feel. Anyway, none of that. It's now now who am I? I am my sexuality. Therefore, to not affirm my sexuality is, we're not agreeing to disagree. You're not affirming me as a human being. You don't disagree with my sexual choices and preferences and lifestyles. You would disagree with my very existence because who am I fundamentally?

1:15:55I am my sexual identity. And so the tension we all feel with the affirmation thing is why do I, why, why can I be so affirming to this friend, this neighbor who I love so much, but we just disagree on, on the ethics. We, we disagree on a ton of ethics, but for some reason, the sexual ethic, how come I feel like I could be so affirming and love this person so much and affirm everything about our friendship and all that stuff. But if If I don't affirm that area, it's almost as if we can't be friends, and it's almost as if that's a bridge too far for our friendship, and it's because that's how they're viewing themselves.

1:16:43That is the identity issue. And so what I tell people is you've got to get it out of the sexual ethic debate and get it to the identity debate. The war over how we view ourselves in this society. And the Christian answer must be, who are you? You are an image bearer of God, worthy of dignity, honor, nobility, friendship, love, kindness, all that stuff. And you, like me, are a fallen image bearer of God, which means we have all twisted God's design for his image in our lives. But the Christian has to be able to say, I am profoundly image of God affirming in every single human being that I meet.

1:17:26I affirm God's image in you. And what I have discovered in engaging with friends in that community or people, like it sounds like where you are, John, who just struggle through the ethical debate of it, what I have discovered is when you get it out of the sexual ethics and into the identity discussion, it helps people understand that the notion I reject is that you are defined as a human being by your sexual attractions and practices. That's a part of you. It's an important part of you, but that's not you. Now, what I was saying about the Christian church, and then I gotta shut up. I'm sorry, y 'all.

1:18:07But what I was saying about the Christian church is the Christian church has bought into this identity thing because the Christians are honest with themselves. The reason why the gay community feels like their sin is singled out as uniquely wrong and beyond redemption and all that stuff, the reason why they feel that is because Christians have bought into that same fallacy. And if Christians are honest with themselves, or let's take it out of Christians, this is a dad bill podcast. If a parent is honest with themselves, they can handle their child, a Christian parent often can handle their child struggling with all different lifestyle choices they disagree with and all that stuff.

1:18:53But there's something about that one that a parent's world comes undone. And it's because they have bought into the fallacy that my child is defined. The identity of my child is this. And that's the fallacy that needs to be dismantled and deconstructed. How do we view each other? How do we define each other?

1:19:14Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. That was a lot. I'm sorry, but. No, no, no. I mean, you know, it hasn't been, as you're talking, I'm thinking, it hasn't been my experience that my gay friends, I have felt like their sexuality is their entire identity. But then I'm thinking, well, I'm not, you know, I am gay affirming, so we wouldn't even be having the conversation in that way. But I do wonder if there's something to the idea of something that, something, some element of someone's identity that is being taken from them. Or, and maybe this is, you know, it's not so much the case these days, but historically for someone who is a homosexual, if that's taken away from, that's not a part, that is not possible for them.

1:20:10Jon McLaughlin:I could see it becoming an outsized part of their identity. Does that make sense? Yeah. When you say taken from them, meaning denied to them. Yeah. Knowing if I'm a homosexual man growing up in Nashville, Tennessee, not in 2026, but in 1926. My experience is much different. In 2026, there are less social repercussions and upheaval if you come out of the closet. In 1926, I would imagine it's a much different game. So the fact that you cannot be this thing that you feel that you are, I could see that then becoming an outsized part of my identity. Does that make sense? it does make sense it absolutely makes sense but um i still think and um i mean my my gentle pushback is i still think you're having a hard time getting past.

1:21:30I think even the fact that you're saying that this is the one part of me that has to be a part of my identity or I lose my identity is still the identity thing.

1:21:44Jon McLaughlin:But that's where I would say, I wonder if they wouldn't have started there. Maybe they would say, well this is just a part of my life you know i mean i'm i'm thinking of you know friends of mine who are homosexual couples who who knows what their actual sexual life looks like i don't know how much the physical act of sex is a part of their life yeah um but i don't know that they would have started with this is who i am if it was an option to have that a part of their life from day one. I don't know if that makes sense, but... Yeah. And as a straight white man, there's not much on the plate of what has been withheld from me in my life.

1:22:37Jon McLaughlin:Oh, man. So, you know, it's tough to find an example. I don't know what your story with your sexuality is like. In my story of my sexuality,

1:22:49the list of sexual desires that have been withheld from me as a follower of Jesus is pretty long.

1:23:05Meaning, let's get off of our friends for whom the same-sex attraction has been a part of their story. Let's just use my story. A part of me is my disordered lust. A part of me is a, you know, thank God the internet wasn't a thing. It was just coming out of the scenes during my conversion years in the late 90s, where I think it would have been a full-blown pornography addiction, but certainly a big part of my story is bringing pornography usage into my journey with Jesus and my surrender to Jesus. As a 46-year-old man, happily married for 20 years next week, by the way. Oh, congrats. 20 years next week.

1:24:06Yeah.

1:24:10The amount of sexual desires that are being denied to me

1:24:19as a follower of Jesus, but I would even say just as according to the agreed upon social, the cultural moral order of the way we have agreed when it comes to sexual ethics. I mean, let's not forget, we all have sexual ethics. We do think that there are things that are not permissible, you know, whatever. The amount of sexuality, if you want to put it that way, that that is withheld from me is a pretty long list and a daily battle within that. But again, I think the reason we have a category for that is I don't think we would look at me as a straight male in a, I mean, I'm like the definite, you know, happily married, evangelical Christian white family with four white boys growing.

1:25:19I mean, we're like the essence of the cultural narrative of privilege. But I don't think any, I think everybody has a category for me to say those parts of me that are denied both as a follower of Jesus, which that list gets a lot longer, but even culturally, that if I were to go and I were to indulge lust towards another woman outside of my wife and do that, even still societally, they say, that's wrong. You're not allowed to do that.

1:25:55Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, for sure. But that's not a threat to my identity. That's not a threat to who I am. But I think the triumph of the modern self and by extension, the triumph of the sexual revolution, it has convinced us that these sexual desires are defining in unique ways. So much so that if you were to actually even propose the idea of chastity or propose the idea of self-denial or propose the idea of is sexuality something that actually can? It's interesting because the data, the social data is very clear that – by the way, I've never – to be clear, I've never – I've counseled with folks and engaged with folks on this issue both who have been antagonistic and come to me for help across the board.

1:26:55and so I have a lot of experience in here and I'm I am fully I can I can say I've never met someone who is exclusively attracted to the same sex and then exclusively attracted to the opposite sex but what I have discovered about human sexuality is that there that there it is so wrapped up sexuality is such an important part of us it doesn't define us but such important part the most powerful part of us, that it is more than any other desire wrapped up in our stories. And what I have discovered is people, the social data is very clear that actually, like through pornography, addiction, and so forth, your sexual desires can change.

1:27:47Heterosexuality through pornography, addiction, or through trauma, stuff like that, Like late, it's fluid enough to where it actually can change towards desires and content that historically the cultural social order would say are more deviant. I'm not trying to use that language. I'm just trying to give you categories. We see sexuality moving that direction. but just the idea of even considering wholeness healing or even just chastity as not a threat to your identity is is something that's just so hard and i understand why it's hard i really do i'm trying to be sympathetic i i understand i've talked to enough of folks who this is their story i understand i understand the difficulty of it but i just think it has been singled out in a unique ways that's unfair to those who have these desires.

1:28:42And I think we, if we're not careful, can reinforce that exact same narrative.

1:28:47Jon McLaughlin:Right. Can I ask one last question? You can't. I got all time. I'm just worried about Charles' podcast time. No, no, no. So something that I think about a lot as I'm someone who, when I read the Bible, I can't write my questions down fast enough. Earlier we were talking about, you know, vocation and people who have a lot of money and they are stewarding it in great ways. And I'm grateful for those people because I'm grateful for a lot of the work that you're doing. So we need that. And at the same time, you know, Jesus was asked, how do I enter the kingdom of heaven? And he said, sell all your stuff.

1:29:33Jon McLaughlin:and give it to the poor so and and i don't i i'm holding both of those things um you know and saying yeah i don't know there's a is a mystery you know it makes me think of those verses and proverbs that are right next to each other and they say the opposite things like don't waste your time on fools next verse waste your time on fools you know so there there there is a a lot that runs through my mind that i'm like i don't know and so i the the stronghold that i sort of grasp onto sometimes is what what fruit is being produced you know a bad tree can't produce good fruit vice versa that seems like i mean there's so much that i'm i'm never gonna know But that seems like, in the foggy lens, that seems like a little bit of a clear spot.

1:30:31Jon McLaughlin:And I'm curious, again, as someone who is thoughtful and kind and speaks about this, for someone who thinks, well, what about the couples that I'm thinking of that are monogamous? I mean, I've got, I could be, someone could say I'm pretty left-leaning on a lot of stuff. I feel like I'm pretty conservative when it comes to marriage. You know, a lot of issues that I hear on this subject, I'm like, well, I feel the same way, but I would put that under promiscuity, you know, and all that kind of stuff. What if someone's like, what about my cousin who is married to his husband? They've adopted a child.

1:31:15Jon McLaughlin:They are in a loving relationship. Are they bearing good fruit? Does that thought or that, lack of a better word, argument hold any water? Is there any validity to that?

1:31:36Are you asking, so this hypothetical couple with adopted children, are you in your thought experiment are they claiming are they fully committed followers of Jesus and or are you meaning the question is like are people who don't even follow Jesus bearing better fruit than Christians so to speak

1:32:07Jon McLaughlin:well I mean we could say both I mean for this example let's say there's there are two couple two different couples they live right next door to each other both same-sex couples one is a follower you know this house they are committed followers of jesus he's a pastor he leads worship the other couple they they are not followers of jesus and you're asking me can they bear fruit yeah and maybe more specifically am I misguided in even finding some kind of wisdom in looking at it that way because when I when I think about it that way to me I feel like I get some kind of a whisper of an answer and I'm curious if you hear me say that and you think I'm not sure if that isn't a misguided way of looking at it you know

1:33:14I think I know Dave do you since you haven't talked for an hour can you do you know what he's saying that you think you could help me better because I really want to I want to I want hospitable with this question. Yeah, no, I think I'm hearing it like you're hearing it too, which is, I think John just said well, like the difference. I don't know. I don't want to misquote John. But I think I John, are you kind of saying what you said about the fruit? Can they bear good fruit? I guess let's go with that. That's good. That's a good way to put it.

1:33:53Jon McLaughlin:Or maybe what is the bad fruit that they are producing? Yeah, so I know I feel like a broken record on his, but it's so important to understand this cultural moment.

1:34:08um i'm had i'm hesitant to um i'm hesitant to uh define you know neighbors uh you know gay couple um neighbors living um you know the doing life where i'm watching them do life next to me and we're neighbors and we love each other we're having fun together and we're hosting each other and we're getting to know each other and being friends. I really want to resist the idea of the, I really hope you're not like feeling like, um, talked down to when I keep saying, even that comes back to the identity question. It's just like, like, I just don't think many people would say, um, can a, can a, uh, you know, which this is increasingly common in our society Can a man and a woman who are cohabitating and in an all-out sexual relationship who adopted some kids, can they bear good fruit?

1:35:14I would say, well, yeah. I mean, like, they're human beings. They're image bearers of God. They're fully capable, like, of doing good in this world and things that Jesus would celebrate. but for some reason when we have the idea of a gay couple in a house it's almost like we strip them of their humanity and the complexity of their humanity

1:35:42Jon McLaughlin:and and i would argue that we put we reduce their identity to their sexual preference yeah that's why i'm just so like christians do this we do this um whether we and the gay community into this from us. They're not, you know, they know, they know, they know that the data is in on pornography uses among pastors of infidelity in the church, divorce rates in the church. They know we are all one big broken sexual mess, but they feel like their sexuality is different. and I would just say yes the yes the Christian church has some repenting to do where we have we have approached their sexuality in a way that is not the way we approach all of our sexuality and our issues we have a category for the messy glory yet profound brokenness of image bearers in these sexual areas, but not in this one sexual area.

1:36:50But I would just say, yes, Christians do that. But I would also say, I think it's harmful what has transpired over the past century that our society has reduced them down to you're gay and that's who you are. And you're not, again, it's stripping the uniqueness and complexity of their humanity and the uniqueness of the way they need Jesus in other areas. Like, do I think you mentioned Jesus, the rich young ruler, say, go sell everything you have and give to the poor and follow me? And he didn't because he's greedy. I mean, that's the American verse. Maybe that, maybe that, do I think of people who are living, who are, have fully embraced a gay lifestyle, do I think?

1:37:47And this has risen to be the biggest stumbling block of Christianity in our society, by the way. You know, this is, you know, Tim Keller wrote that book, Reason for God, which was Defeater Ethics. And he basically said, here are these apologetic ethics that you have to overcome in order to reach your neighbors. You've got to be thoughtful about, and it's just classic philosophical apologetic stuff. Before he passed away, I had a conversation with him, and I'm not name dropping here, I'm just trying to give validity to my argument because he says it's true, then it's true. But before he passed, I had this conversation.

1:38:18I said, Tim, I really think defeater beliefs has been replaced by defeater ethics. People aren't asking anymore like the classic philosophical apologetics, is Christianity true? They're asking, is it beautiful? They're asking, is it good? And they're viewing it. What they say is because Christianity believes this about sexuality, it cannot be true. and so I would put this at the top of the apologetic Christian evangelism stuff that's going on in our society right now but my point is is I'm not because of that I don't I don't want to position I don't want to be our our culture values authenticity so I don't want to be disingenuous here and like try to pull a fast one with my words I believe if someone is fully embracing a gay identity a gay lifestyle and they come to Jesus I think Jesus would love them and say, every culture has their unique crosses to bear.

1:39:13Here's my cross. I'm coming after your sexuality in a loving way. And I'm not saying like healing and I'm not, I'm not like simplistic conversion therapy guy. Like, please don't hear what I'm saying. I'm just saying, Jesus would probably look at him and say, would you be willing to lay down your sexual desires to follow me? But I also think he might say, would you be willing to lay down your greed to follow me? Would you be willing to lay down your gossiping, slanderous tongue to follow me? Would you be willing to lay down your vanity and pride and follow me? I just, what I'm trying to say is we are stripping our gay neighbors of the complexity of their humanity and what it means to be an image by our God by reducing them down to only their sexuality.

1:39:58Our society is doing that. Our churches are doing that. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to bring us out of that and say that we humanity, God's image is so much more complex. And my answer to that going back to originally is, may I share with you the beauty of God's design for human sexuality and why is literally at the center of creation. The high point of the creation narrative is not just God's image. It's God's image, male and female. In fact, it is the female image bearer. She is the greatest glory of all of creation. And if male headship isn't lifting up female glory, then it's not doing its job according to the original design.

1:40:47So it's God's image thing. And then the highest point of the high point of creation is this glorious sexual differences coming together and the two become one flesh. And then we ruin that. And then God takes it and he writes an entire story of redemption where they circumcise penises and the woman is barren and the seed is going to come. And there's just this, it's human sexuality is so beautiful and such an intricate part of the Christian story. And I just, you know, I've done the apologetic, you know, I can give the arguments, but I just like lifting up. Here's the beauty of what God says about your sexuality.

1:41:26and we all have a lot of work to do to conform ourselves to his original design for our bodies. Yeah.

1:41:39Jon McLaughlin:Amen. Well, I really appreciate you having the conversation. Yeah, John, let's just keep, we don't have to get on a podcast to talk. I know. This is your fun to talk to. We'll do lunch sometime. Yeah, I'd love it. um you know i i just get oh my gosh i got so teary-eyed when you're saying that i just feel like ah the weight i don't know just the weight of what jesus asks you know that and the beauty of it when he looks at me you know of just whatever it is that you know he asks of me to sacrifice like what a profound thought you know anyway if if now he he he goes first right

1:42:27he goes the cross first and then he has a cross for us and i just think i just think the fundamental question because i think ethics is such a the ethical debate is the number one objection to the christian faith right now and i think it just all comes down to this if we believe this, if we believe this man is risen from the dead and he is my Lord, and Christian conversion is not will you make a decision? Like we just, that, you know, like, can I, can I give you the sales pitch and get you to sign on the data line and you made a decision for Jesus and you walked out? No, no, no. It's Christian conversion is not make a decision.

1:43:02It is bow and submission to a Lord. And by definition, what that means is Jesus, for the rest of my life, I'm giving you full freedom to disagree with me. And you're allowed to disagree with my sexuality. And you're allowed to tell me what to do with my body. Now, historically, John, historically, that wasn't a stumbling block to the Christian faith. That was just assumed. And if I might just do a little bit apologetic work, that's still not a stumbling block outside of, and this is where I think our society needs to really wrestle with outside of highly educated, predominantly white cultural elites.

1:43:45If you go talk to the African American community about their views on sexuality, if you go talk to other cultures and societies about their views on sexuality, what will happen what you will discover is that sexual secular sexual ethics is kind of caught um in a way because what is paramount and i celebrate this what is paramount to the the secular educated movement is diversity and learning and listening from each other but when it comes sexuality and gender, the movement isn't interested in that. In fact, what I see in my international travels, especially in Western Europe, it's flat out colonization.

1:44:35We don't conquer worlds anymore. We're conquering worldviews and we are going all around the world telling lovely cultures with historic marriage practices and views on men and women and and sexuality and stuff, we're going to say, you all are helplessly naive and you need to get with the times and learn from us because we figured out sexuality finally. And I'm not saying you, I'm not implying that you, I'm talking about the entire ideological movement is a highly educated, predominantly white Western ethic that is being imposed upon the rest of the world as ethically naive and they need us to enlighten them upon um the real way to view sex and gender um and it just to to outside and i've talked to them um the the most conservative demographic when it comes to sexuality and gender in america is the southern african american population the very ones we enslaved and oppressed and we want to rectify and we want to repair and in and in some cases we want to flat out do reparations but i don't think we had the humility to sit down with a black southern mama and say what do you think about gender and sex and listen i just i don't think i don't think we'd have the humility to do that in this area in particular i don't think we had the humility to ask what do other cultures what is asia what is latin america what is africa what does africa think about gender and sexuality um so i don't know how i went there but i've got to stop going places i've looked at this clock and it's it's insane.

1:46:30John, I love you, man. In just the hour we've been together, I meant what I said. Dude, it's so refreshing to talk to somebody as someone who has experienced spaces where I'm talking with people who disagree with me, and I just sense a militantness about them. And I kind of get that because they're used to people with my views being a little bit militant. I don't know, man. You have a disarming way about you and it's it's fun to have these discussions with someone like you well thank you and dave uh thanks for listening it's what i do best yeah it's not it's not confusing a really good conversation um robert thank you for your time thank you robert what a wonderful wonderful conversation to uh be a part of i appreciate um you giving us your time and

1:47:22Jon McLaughlin:please bring some of that fun work down to tennessee and take social media away i've got I've got a wonderful plan for Dave Barnes's life. I talked to him about it at lunch. You did? I really do want to do that. I do. And I want to do the thing. Dave, you know, sometimes you've got to, you just have to ask, has God positioned me in such a way where I'm a trusted voice to, you know, the Nashville music community, to the Nashville Christian community, to the Nashville business leaders. Modeling. The model, his striking attractiveness. All of that. I was telling him it's the lunch. I'm going to tell his public, so now he has to really think about it.

1:48:13I think God has positioned him to start dreaming dreams. I get to dream and then bring the right people to the table to pull it off. But yeah, I'm happy to help him. Well, I mean, like John, me and John and Annie and Amy, I really do think that debt thing is incredibly compelling and exciting. Yeah. So it'd be fun. If anybody listening wants to party that lives here in Tennessee, let's party. Let's party. Robert, it's so good to see you, man. Thanks for your time. It's good to see you again. And John, so nice to meet you. I mean this, man. I wasn't just saying that. I mean that. I'd love to grab lunch next time I'm in Nashville.

1:48:50Yes.

1:48:51Jon McLaughlin:Let me know, please. Dave will pay. more enjoyable in the lunch I had to do Dave will pay I'll just sit there and watch this has been awesome y 'all thank you for what you do thanks guys later

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