How to Stop Throwing Milk at Your Kids with Will Mooney

28:47Jon McLaughlin:Which is a really hard aspect of parenting. Yeah. When you have done something that you immediately regret. Yeah. And you can't just immediately, you know, deal with it. Yeah. Resolve it. Yeah. That to me has been, you know, I've had my version of what you're describing. And that's the heart. That's the most, maybe the most painful of the day-to-day feelings. It's like, I can't get rid of this feeling right now. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to go to sleep sometimes. Yeah. That's hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So you go to Afton, you tell her. I tell her it took me a while. I think, I don't remember when Bailey let me back in the room or what point.

29:32I think it took me a minute to figure out how did I get here? How did I get to the point that I'm throwing milk? And as she asked me, I was like, yeah, why did I have milk in my hand? I don't drink a lot of milk. So you just physically, what's happening? Where did this come from? So I had to like figure that out because I think I was just so upset. And I was like, and then, and to, and to not just collapse in my own anger at myself, anger itself is shame, not just shame myself, you know? And I just like, okay, you know, kind of like work through it and talk to her and just kind of, maybe I don't remember what I, if I went for a walk or something, but I think I've, I've failed enough in my life to be like, okay, this is going to happen.

30:13You know, I'm going to, we can get in there and repair. And she had to calm down obviously for her to hear me. And so eventually I don't remember the conversation perfectly, but she was gracious and that's, that's more normal in our house. So it wasn't like the end of the world. So it was like, there's one thing, I mean, God has given us so many kindnesses in our children's, well, just in a lot of ways. Right. But I think especially in those kinds of younger years, it's so amazing how gracious they are, you know, like that you can go in and say, Hey, and if enough time and she had, And, you know, that when she sees you're really sorry, like they really do forgive.

30:53Yeah. You know, and especially those younger years where it's like, okay, you know, it's such a grace. Yeah. Could you imagine if like a five-year-old kid was like, no. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. You have broken something. And you're like, oh, shoot. Right. Right. And I could see if we hadn't done it before, it would be harder. You know, it's like, it's just like, we're just gonna, hey, sorry, sorry. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:15Jon McLaughlin:You know, I think that in my experience with my two girls, that is definitely true. And I agree. It is such a gift that they are so easy to forgive and move on. And sometimes I think of the fact that, and obviously you speak to this as the professional. Professional parent. So many times. Sure. Not at all. into therapy as adults let's say yeah you and we end up and again i'll just talk about my own experience when i first went to therapy i i went in for something completely different that's happening in my adult life and then i'm next thing i know i'm talking about my childhood and help help me with this thought it seems like some kind of a paradox here we're like I believe I was probably that way.

32:14Jon McLaughlin:I mean, I have the greatest parents in the world. And it's like at the same time, they're so quick to forgive. And if we apologize and we move on, et cetera, et cetera. But at the same time, when they become adults, they're still, it seems like, they're still going to be talking about those moments. Yeah? Yeah. And is there, is that inevitable? or is there something that can be done now as parents to kind of, I mean, there's maybe nothing wrong with that pattern because maybe that's just the way it has to be. Yeah. But it is inevitable. We're going to hurt our kids and it's inevitable. It will impact them for a long time.

33:00And it's almost hard to know what it could be or what it will be. You know, I doubt Bailey's going to be talking about milk. I'm sure it's going to be something I have no idea.

33:08Jon McLaughlin:That's the thing I always think. And Amy and I, my wife and I always talk about how like the thing that they will come and bring to us will be one of two. It will be something that we thought we nailed or it will be something we've never even thought of. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But all the list of things that we're like, it's probably these, it probably won't be those things. Yeah. I don't know. I was talking to a friend the other day about this because something else happened last week and I was processing it with him. And, you know, I was like, here was the good part of the story, but here was the negative part.

33:41And I was like, I bet you anything when she grows up, she's going to be thinking about the negative part. When there was another part of that story that was really beautiful. And I think that's, you know, I don't know. I think I know sometimes we talk about brain science and a lot of times, you know, those the more emotional and experiences, the more it kind of prints in the brain. you know so if it's a really joyful event it'll probably stick you know but if it's a really painful event it'll also stick like velcro you know that it will stay so you know those things are what gets remembered and it's just hard to know what it will be um and maybe that's just

34:22Jon McLaughlin:human nature like the yeah the one bad review of a new album right why did you look at me when you did you write that review i did and i regret it and i'm sorry this is look at how many pass it have you always that was your verbal milk yeah in my album face that's the title the episode verbal milk or we have to start a band um but yeah you get you 20 good reviews and then one bad review right that you stick it's of course that's the one thing that sticks with me right But I'm thinking about what happened with us this past week where I think she's going to remember the negative and the positive.

35:02I could go back to her and be like, hey, remember the other day when we had that big blow up at church and things didn't go well? What was that like for you? And see the story that she's writing about it in her head. Yeah. And explore it. You know, it's like, oh, maybe that's all she remembered is the negative part of that argument. And see, okay, what else do you remember? Because we're always like narratives are how we make meaning out of the world. We're always forming stories. And when you kind of, like you said, you go to therapy and you look at your past, you're just telling stories, you know, and our kids are always writing stories.

35:38They're writing stories about their first day of middle school. They're writing stories about milk. You know, they're writing them all the time. And if we're curious about the stories they're writing, we ask them to tell their stories to us as they're growing up. we can help them see the fuller picture, you know, being, and be able to hold the reality of life, which is there is a lot of really hard things that you've experienced and maybe that I've done with you. And what else have we enjoyed today?

36:02Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. You know, to try to hold, help them hold the complexity of both because we do shame. And a lot of us as humans tend to make it, it's comfortable to only hold one, one experience to really say like, all things are bad. You know, that school is bad or my teacher's bad, you know, because that feels protective because it's hard to hope that maybe they could be good too. Cause then if I start to hope they could hurt me again, you know, so we tend to hold things really black and white to help us deal with complexity or pain, you know, or maybe some of the, and Dave, we've talked about some of this and kind of church cultures.

36:37We only hold the positive, you know, it's like, Oh, it was great. That was such, Oh yeah. Loved. Yeah. That person's there. It's like, and that was really hard. You You know, I felt missed by them too. You know, so we can, trying to hold the story as it is, is really important. And I think we can help our kids do that as we ask them to tell their stories about their days and their experience of us. And as we do it for us, like it's caught, like as I talk about my day, I want my kids to know, I had some really hard sessions this week, you know. And here were some other really great things. I had a great conversation with some friends, you know, and they're like, oh yeah, this is life.

37:14We can hold both, you know. Well, and, you know, we've talked about this so much. And I mean, you know, I just feel like as a parent, kind of the best, what I'm trying to achieve is being myself, right? Like really being myself with my kids, which also means like some of the bad stuff. But in rupture and repair, that's kind of the best that we've got. That's the best that I've got is to go, I've done something to you and I'm really sorry I did that. can we be in community again can we be in community again me and you and you know so far my kids every time i've done that have have responded yeah we can and so i think so then you know prayerfully in 20 years if they come back and like hey you know it's kind of hard they can say you know you said this and it still messes with me and i know and you asked for my and i you know and that was good we did come back but it doesn't erase the things that can be hard But there's, you know, it's a thing as a parent.

38:14You have to leave the space for humanity and for the fact that even in those things that go badly, my hope is that we can still repair. But it doesn't take away the bad thing, but it does show there's a humanity of your dad that like sets what you said so beautifully sets a realistic trajectory for themselves. Like, oh, I'm going to get mad at my sister, brother, spouse someday, co-worker. But then the hope is that I can repair that too. yep you know and i think and that gives me so much hope as a parent because it takes the onus off of like you gotta nail this my man and you do right we all want to do the best we can do yeah right but just realizing like man you're just gonna have a bad day and come in and pop off at your kid say something that you didn't mean to say or it's just gonna happen but again our job is to be cognizant of that ask forgiveness have a conversation like hey sorry about that how that make you feel i didn't mean to make you feel that way yeah here's what's going on with me you I'm really sorry.

39:10Do you forgive me? Hopefully, and they say yes, and you go, okay. But it doesn't take away that moment, but it does give a conclusion to it. And so those things are just, it's just being a human. It's just being a human.

39:22Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. I wonder if it should be, was it rip and repair? Rupture and repair. Rupture, repair, revisit. Oh, yeah. Wow. Like go back to it a couple times. Okay. Yeah. because as you were talking will i'm like okay i i want to i want to revisit some things that like we've already repaired but we haven't talked about it in two years and i want to and it is it's something that i think about you know i wonder if luca thinks about it and maybe we revisit it and see if there's any because i'm curious as you were saying like what is the story what's the version which is totally valid her version is her version right like what was your daughter's version of the milk situation you know like i wonder how she remembers it i want to know yeah it'd be as there she's like you had a milkshake and you threw it as hard as you could at my face and then you came over and scooped it off the floor and drank it in front of me and walked out you're like okay That's not exactly the change of the whole thing.

40:33Jon McLaughlin:It was a 44-ounce. Yeah.

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43:38So I wanted to talk about this too. Well, you had this really great blog that you wrote about, kind of the question beneath the question. And I think so many dads probably can relate to this. And man, when I read that, I was like, get out of my brain butter, you dark magic man. Because I feel like, you know, I can so, so badly take a comment, sort of like camp out on it. What is that supposed to mean? So can you talk about that for a second? Yeah, that question. It's just, I could take anything. I could take a stare from my dog as I'm doing a bad job today. You know, like I'll relate to anything through this lens of whatever it is I'm talking to myself about already.

44:27And so it's really been helpful to me to start to, it's taking a lot of space internally to notice what I'm saying to myself. because I mean there's things that my like in that blog I was talking about my wife asked me to fill up a water bottle and how just the that question felt like like stepping on a piece of

44:51Jon McLaughlin:glass she asked you had you filled them yes right yeah because that was like one of the few tasks that we were talking about how that was on my list of get out the door before camp yeah and and it when she asked it she had asked it again and I was like you know I could feel it because and honestly to her credit it wasn't a shaming tone it wasn't like did you feel feel him you know it wasn't that at all it's just the way i was relating to the question was absolutely like are you a good dad or a good husband or not and i'm like and that's the story that i already had in my head probably from something the day before that i was already feeling that way totally and and i hear did you feel the water bottles and i hear yeah you're you're a failure yeah and i'm like oh my gosh and but it thankfully you know back to doing therapy and looking at myself i'm start i've start to slow down and go okay wait she didn't say that yeah right you know i'm saying that to myself right and so like i can answer that more honestly of like nope haven't filled them yet you know you know and then when i'm in a not thoughtful connected place and not paying attention to myself in the moment and what i'm saying to myself i'll come back with something else oh yeah that's more like what i'm never good enough you know or something that's like your dad was right what your granddad called it are you happy i knew it all along that's why they weren't at the wedding is it just say it he was in hospice i know but like emotionally they went yeah my my version of that is when amy with nothing behind it it's just like hey what do you have going on today oh john mclaughlin can we do a whole other podcast on that yeah and i'm like i've got i mean and half the time i'm like i don't really have that much going on so wait what's the story in your head what do you what's the meme underneath that question Can we say it at the same time, John?

46:57Oh, that's fun.

46:59Jon McLaughlin:I don't have anything going on because I'm a failure. My career is a laughingstock. I don't have a real job. I don't have a real job. Oh, my gosh. I'm surrounded by real men in the real world. Johnny's just back there at his little play. He plays music. His schedule is completely malleable and up for debate. Oh, man. if you could have been in the room early on in my marriage with Annie where she would say, what do you have today? And I'd be like, oh, what do you have today? Oh, okay. Okay. No, you go first. You don't even have a job. So mine may not be a real job. Do you know how hard it is to write songs?

47:40I've got a job. Okay. And I know it's not the job, apparently, but it is a job and you don't even have one. So suck it. And she's like, technically I'm a pharmacist. I'm like, okay, well, ooh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh, it's so funny.

47:54Jon McLaughlin:Oh, gosh. It's funny because Afton and I started – because I told her about that story and how I was doing it. I was thinking about – it reminded me of my favorite Saturday Night Live sketch, which I think is top five. Michael Jordan and Stuart Smollett is the guy. One of the greatest. Oh, my gosh. He's not strong enough. Yeah, it kills me. But there's a moment in there, and I don't have it memorized. I actually hope to memorize it. but he, you know, Michael, he does this whole thing where he makes Michael talk into the mirror. And then he was like, wasn't that great, Michael? And he's like, I was really fine after all, you know?

48:32And he's, and he looks at Michael, he's like, you know, denial is not just a river in Egypt, you know? And he's like, no, really I'm fine. And then, and then Stuart's doing it all out loud. I'm unlovable. I'm going to be 20 pounds overweight and poor and nobody loves me. And so like, if I could just take that and be like, this is what I'm doing right now. I'm above a goal. I'm Stuart Smalling. Yeah. So, so what, what is that in all of us? Like what, what is, what is it? Cause I mean, as John said, I mean, Lord knows that's happened with me and Annie where you have an interaction, especially with your spouse or sometimes with your kids where they just say something and it triggers what, what, what is, what do we do then?

49:09What's the work we do to go, Whoa, I want to explode. Yeah. And they just asked if I fill the water bottle. Yeah. The, the work is to pause. I mean, like we're kind of doing right now, it's fun that we can laugh about it because it just makes it easier to be with. So yeah, I think pausing for me, it's pausing, noticing what I'm already telling myself, you know, the story I'm writing about the comment. And then, um, there's probably something in there that needs attention, you know? Um, and to, instead of ask my wife to make it all okay, you know, be like, Hey, we, I'm feeling really small and you know, we, can I be another child in this house?

49:46Like that would just be unfair to her. it would be like hey I need to pay attention to this you know and for me it might I may not have time in the moment of water bottles and getting out of the school it might be after I drop them off and I'm driving back and I'm like man something feels off I feel really a lot of shame and a lot of fear I'm not sure what it is and I'll I'll either start praying about it you know I might I'd like I do people probably think I'm crazy when I drive I talk to an empty chair all the time yeah i'm like what okay lord what is happening i'm feeling really lonely and i'm feeling a lot of shame like i'm failing my family what what is it that you want me to know right now what do you like just try to listen you know and pay attention what it is and he might reveal okay like well you're you know it started yesterday you had a bad this actually happens to me quite a bit i'll have a bad session at the end of the day and i'll just be like man i'm such a bad therapist yeah you know y 'all might have like a bad you know right or something and you're like man i just and you kind of get on yourself and then then you go home and just like okay i'm home you know and then you don't think about it until the water bottles you know can i ask because i'm just

50:52Jon McLaughlin:curious when you say you had a bad session yeah for you is that do you mean like i didn't know what to say to this person or i or i wasn't sure where to guide them or what does that mean or is it just that they brought in such heavy stuff that it was weighing you down or what is it? Yeah. Um, that can, that can be a bad session where it's just a really dark and there's, there's not a lot of hope in where they are and they're not feeling much hope about therapy or the process and you just sitting in the ditch. Yeah. That's icky. That's a bad one. A bad one is also when I, you know, you know, let's take the water bottle story.

51:31If something gets triggered to me with a client where they're like, I don't think therapy is very helpful slash. Oh man. Did you fill up the water bottles or what are we doing today? You know, like something where you sense they probably, most clients don't say that, but you get a sense that they're leaving and they're like, you know, that wasn't, that wasn't worth the price of admission. And you're kind of going, oh, and then, and then to be able to kind of come back to myself, be like, no, I showed up the way I wanted to show up. I know I stayed in my lane, you know, that's great. And that can kind of feel good about it.

52:04But if I kind of replay it, this happened the other day where I did a longer session with a couple and that, and it felt like, I felt like he, I was trying to get him to see something that I could see. And I would say it and try to like, kind of look at it. And he just was like, not wanting to go there, you know? And then I just kind of kept pushing and it just felt odd you know it felt like i wasn't again with him and where he was that i was trying for it was about me wanting him to get somewhere and and that ended up feeling icky for both of us and so that's where i go home like oh i didn't feel good yeah which then can trigger many things yeah whatever those things yeah i'm feeling like you know it's what i keep doing to myself about it and if i'm if i can slow down and then just be like, I mean, I think I did this this morning or some part of yesterday.

52:57It's like, okay, I'm going to give you Lord that session. You're going to take care of that person. I'll have a chance again to see him again. Thankfully, that's a great part about parenting and therapies. You have a relationship, it's ongoing and I'm going to keep trusting that you got a process here and help me stay open to it. I'm going to ask you this because I think this is helpful for me to think about in that moment, whatever that is with me and John and and you and Afton, what are we asking our wives to give us emotionally that isn't their job to give us? Yeah. I think there's parts where our wives can affirm that we're men.

53:38They can see it. They can say, hey, I'm really grateful for your strength, for your assertiveness, for your way you just really bring so much containment and authority and love and security to our house, right? Where they can affirm that it's in you or in me. And then that's great. That's good. It's kind of like, okay. But then there's this other place where I'm showing up almost like a 13 year old boy to my wife and saying, will you tell me that I'm good enough? You know, and it feels very childish. and the same words or the same thing I could be saying the same words but it could come from that place or not and it and it my I mean Afton feels it and she's like I mean yes I love you but that's a different it's just a different energy you know and they sense it and Afton's told me she senses it and it and it's just for her it's not attractive God didn't made her to be attracted to a 13 year old boy, thankfully, you know, you know, she wants me.

54:39It could be problematic. Yeah. So that's, that's on me to look at that when that's showing up. Um, and we, I mean, we bring that same energy to our work to, you know, tell me, I mean, I've done talks and different things where I'm doing it from that place of like, am I, am I a man? Am I good? Like, tell me, am I right? You know, and that's too much to give, to ask of anybody. Yeah. Yeah. Lord knows I've stood on stage. I just feel like that. Yeah. But the moments when you have it, I bet you have it. No, yeah. And it's felt so, you're like, this feels great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

55:16Jon McLaughlin:You know, I was curious earlier when you were talking about the, you know, the moment when someone says something, your kid or your wife or whoever, and you kind of feel triggered, and then there's that moment in your blog. You talked about that Viktor Frankl. Oh, I love that quote, yeah. What is it again? There's the space in between there. Between like a stimulus or whatever it is, a quote or a statement from our wife, between a stimulus and our response, there's a space. Yeah. And within that space is our power to choose, and that's where growth happens, basically. Which the nature of those moments is a lot of people would say, there is no space that's right that people say that all the time to me yeah yeah um do you have any practical thoughts on like for for people who i mean it's i think it's a challenge for every human being but like for particularly for people who are listening who are like i got to get a handle on whatever space or lack thereof yeah is there what would you say are there any practical things that they could try to implement that would help?

56:25Yeah. Uh, starting to pay attention to their self-talk ways, practical ways you could do it. You could pull out of your phone and on a notes app, just start writing the things that you're telling yourself throughout the day. Yeah, that's good. Just kind of keep a log, you know, it's like whatever it is, you know, uh, I'm not a good therapist or like my kids are failing or I'm, uh, my wife is, you know, I can interpret her reading at night as a rejection of me. You know, it's like, I'm, she doesn't love me, you know, whatever it is. And just start writing some of those thoughts down and, and then after maybe do it for a week and then come back and look at it for the week and be like, I bet there's some themes in here, you know, or I'm alone or I'm not loved or I'm not enough.

57:15And you start to look at those themes. And then, you know, from there, what you would say is like, okay, what is the question I'm asking all the time to my work, to my music, to my parents or to my kids, to my job, you know, all what's the, what's the dialogical ongoing question that I'm always bringing to these moments, which is some form of that. Is this true or not true about me? And start to look at that and then, and then start to put words to it. And then I, I don't think anybody else can answer that for me other than God. And so that's when you got to go wrestle with like Israel, you know, God, what is true about this?

57:52Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. And that happens through silence. So that's probably the most other practical thing is, you know, obviously day to day, right. And some of those things, but go, go take some long walks, you know, and wrestle with God about some of those things or ask him to show you what those things are. You know, Jamie Winship talks a lot about who we've had on and I love so much, but But he has that thing where he said exactly what you said. He's like writing those things down. And then sort of, I love this. I was looking through my notes because I wrote this. I was listening to one of the podcasts. But what are the things that I believe about myself that God never said?

58:25And that list would be that. Like, oh, whatever. I'm not achieving or I can't. I'm not a man because this went badly. Or I had a session where I didn't. Whatever it is. Or a show that goes bad. I hear people talk about those. I don't know that firsthand. But to sit and look at that list and go, God hasn't said any of that about me. And I think what's so beautiful is then to say, Lord, what is it about me? You think? Yeah. To hear that. And that's such a beautiful thing. And I think, too, I know for me, trying to figure out where those things come from. That's something that Jamie does a lot. I had a friend who actually got to do this with him.

59:08And he said, okay, and he's talked about this in a lot of the podcasts I've listened to where he's like, you know, when I'm sitting with someone that has kind of a similar theme in their struggles. So whatever that voice is, like you said so well, oh, wow, there's a real consistency here in this struggle. And just inviting, like getting still and asking Jesus to remind you when that happened. Because he's like, I really believe that like 90 % of the time there was an event that said that to you. And it's just echoes of that event from then on. Totally. And then asking Jesus where he was in that.

59:37Yes. in that moment. That's trauma therapy. And there are some crazy, I mean, I had a friend that did it with him and he was telling me, he was like, he had me do this thing and I saw Jesus like standing right beside me as a child and I was experiencing this thing and I was able to turn and say like, it was this crazy thing. But to your point, that's such great work. It's so beautiful, you know, but it takes, you're inferring, John, it takes so much strength in that moment not to just, for me to react or to do whatever it is that's just right there and ready to go, as opposed to being like, okay, I need to take a minute, take a beat, see what's going on inside me, and then later, or if you have a moment then to kind of go, Lord, what in the heck is this?

1:00:23And for me, a lot of times, and it can be some trauma, but a lot of times it's just tied to something that happened 10 minutes ago. Or like that day that didn't go well. Or there's something I can tie it to if I just take a minute. And I'm like, oh my God, there it is. That's where it started. Yeah. It's not some vague, I don't know. It's like, no, actually, you know, some guy cut me off. Yeah. Right. Right. You know, and I got really mad. I guess I just hadn't come down from that yet. Yeah.

1:00:48Jon McLaughlin:As the other day in our school drop-off line, you know, it's early in the year. This is great. I'm in. It's early in the year. And, you know, we've been at this school for three years now. This is our third year. We've got an eighth grade. It's sixth, seventh, eighth. The way the line works is kind of confusing. And I remember the very first day that I was dropping Luca off when she was in sixth grade, I did the line wrong. So I have lots of grace for all the other new parents. But one line is like a slow line. It's like you can sit in this line if you need to. Then the other line next to it is quick.

1:01:28Jon McLaughlin:It's like if you're in this line, you're just dropping your kid off and you're going. Yeah. So we're in the slow line and we get, I kind of pull forward a little bit past the door and we stop. And one of my daughters is getting out and she is taking her sweet time. In her defense, she's got a lot of stuff. She's got two backpacks and water bottle and computer, but it's taken a long time. In the time that it took for her to get out of the car, I bet five different parents went by me and they were different levels of intensity of they're obviously mad at me. They're like, you know, but aren't you the right line?

1:02:08Jon McLaughlin:Right. But, and I talked with Amy about this later. She's like, they're probably all new parents. They don't know how the lines work yet. They're just seeing that you're, you're gumming up this line here. Like move. But there was one of the dads. I saw a dad go by And you know His window was up I couldn't hear it But he's obviously like He said something to me Oh no Like through his window Yeah Through his window And You know what he said? I think it was something About my first album I don't know But Oh gosh So a fan But let's take the good from it A fan But he was frustrated Yeah frustrated He's like I never understood Why did you put Track 11 on there?

1:02:49Jon McLaughlin:No I mean But I say all this to say Like For me personally in those situations I just so rarely see someone who looks at me and is mad at me that I'm like it affected me the whole rest of the morning like Amy and I go home we're having coffee we're sitting out on the porch and I'm a little quiet and she eventually said something to me and I was like it's just I think it's the parents on the line and in the whole morning I'm thinking I know that's what's going on. Yeah. And there's a part of me that's like, I don't really want to tell Amy that because I want to be unfazed by this. I don't want to care about this.

1:03:36Jon McLaughlin:Why can't I be the guy who is like, I know what's happening. I know that the line works this way. He maybe doesn't know. It's fine. Why can't I be a guy who's like, yeah, that's right. That did happen. It didn't faze me. I want Amy to be attracted to me because of that. I want her. So it's like there is this. Was she attracted to you because you were not fazed? Or you weren't telling her you were fazed? No. No. I mean, she knows me so well. I'm sure she knew what was happening the whole time. She could have. But I'm like, I want to be this just steadfast, just, you know, cowboy of a girl. It's ridiculous.

1:04:25Jon McLaughlin:But it's true. It's like, I want to be unfazed. And I want her to be at lunch with a friend and be like, I don't know. John's so, he doesn't even, it doesn't bother him. Clint Eastwood dropping off his kids. Yeah. Yeah. And there is a little bit of like, when you were talking earlier about, you know, your wife doesn't want another child in the house. Sometimes I, I, I see that gray area where it's like, well, what's happening is happening. I am who I am. I know what happened. I know I'm, I'm fazed by this. I'm carrying it around. Yeah. I wish that weren't the case. I don't want to be, my fear is that I'll say it and Amy will be like, that's kind of pathetic.

1:05:06Jon McLaughlin:Okay. So I've got two girls and a boy, you know, but that, well, can I, can I offer a thought? Yeah. When I say don't, uh, when I don't, I don't want to be another child that my wife has to take care of. when I'm talking about what I'm feeling and how I'm relating to what I feel, that's in a very adult thing. Yeah, true. Right? Like I know what you're saying because I can do that. It's like kind of being like, I'm really sad today. And, you know, it's like kind of wanting her to rescue it. But if I'm like, I'm sad today and this is a hard day. This guy treated me like this. You know, it's like, I don't know.

1:05:46of that as being yeah um childish yeah because you're you're taking responsibility for your own experience that's good and you're naming it and and holding it you know yeah versus like you know do you can you figure out what i'm feeling and make sure it's okay and

1:06:02Jon McLaughlin:make me saying it naming it saying it naming it needing saying it in a way where it's like now i need amy to coddle me and rescue me yeah that's where it gets problematic exactly there's a um maybe I don't know who came up with this. I wish I could tell you, but

1:06:21adults name their feelings, right? Children shame or blame. So it's like, am I naming what I feel or am I shaming myself, you know, for what I'm feeling? Kind of like what you were saying, or am I blaming somebody else, right? Those shaming and blaming are what kids do because they don't know how to be with their emotions they just kind of act out you know and so if i can name it then i'm like okay i'm showing up like an adult but it's more pain it's painful to do it's much easier to blame somebody or to just go turn on myself and get quiet because then it's like i don't have to feel this and kind of disconnect i found that that helps me think there's like okay can i name it you know or am i shaming or blaming yeah which is caught you know too it's like right My kids start blaming them.

1:07:09I'm like, yep, know where you get that. Or they're shaming themselves for having feelings like, yeah, dad does that. I'm sorry. Yeah, geez. Way to bring it all together, by the way. Look at you looping the whole thing. Look at you, Mr. Conversation Looper. That's a therapist pro move right there. Let's circle back. 50 minutes. Here we go.

1:07:26Jon McLaughlin:We're like two minutes away. I'm going to start wrapping this up. So before we let you go, and thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me, guys. So many gems in this conversation. Any encouragement for parents who are listening? And it can be anything. Just anything that you've thought about lately. Anything you'd want to tell parents out there as they're parenting. Any encouragement? Yeah. Oh, man. That's a big question. It is a huge question. I think don't do it alone. That would be the best thing, I think. Because I think we live in a period in history where we're a lot more isolated than we ever were.

1:08:03and my kids need Dave in their life. My kids need John's in their life and they need more than me and I need more than me and Afton. So just don't do it alone. I think if I could say one thing and help people hear that, that's what I want to say. That's great. What does that look like to you? What does that look like practically? I mean, honestly, what we're doing right now. I mean, I feel less lonely talking to you guys. Thanks for sharing the stories you all shared. So I feel like I'm going to leave here being like, I'm one of other men trying to lead their families. I mean, I think y 'all's podcast is that.

1:08:37That's what I enjoy about it. That's what I was hoping to land. It is. It's like, I think that's what matters. I was fishing for that. Did you tee me up? No, it wasn't. I really mean that. But I like that. But you said, so friendships, obviously. Friendships, yeah. Yeah. Being with people, sharing struggles. Therapy. Therapy's one. Yeah, you're not doing it alone. Whatever your stuck places are in your parenting or in your marriage or in yourself. That's great. I love that. Just go get help with the stuck spot. That is a great place. I love that. Yeah. That's a great qualifier. Yeah. You don't have to know why you're stuck either.

1:09:15That's great. Just like, hey, noticing this pattern or this kind of place that I'm feeling I don't want to be with. And if you are in New York Nashville, Maiden Matter. Maiden Matter. Come see you all. Well, you're the best. I mean, I can't, I should have started this, but I have a few friends who've, you know, you've worked with who have shared that with me and they just, they are so complimentary of your work and what you are doing there. So thanks for. Yeah. Thanks for coming on, man. Thanks, Joyce. Great. Milkenal.

1:09:43Jon McLaughlin:Can you name some of your clients real quick? You have to sit. Just write them down. Okay. Start right.

1:09:52DADVILLE

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