How to Survive an Empty Nest with Jon Acuff

21:56I want it to go well. I want it to go well, whatever. And I can sort of get a little bit of those jitters. But it's just such a relief now to be like what you said so well earlier, John. And it's like, I know what I've done. It's either worked or it hadn't, but there's no changing that now. So it's just like, let me just do it. I love to do what these people have come to see me do. And it'll probably be pretty good. It may be great, but it's not going to be bad. No, no, no, no. And so then it's like, it just takes so much of that off of you to be able to really enjoy what it is, as opposed to feeling like, God, my 20s.

22:31I mean, you remember the speaking or books or... Oh, yeah. Where you're like, everything hinges on this moment. Everything is at stake every time. Yeah, which is exhausting.

22:42Jon Acuff:It's exhausting to be kind of on that. Wouldn't you say that like Vince Gill? Vince Gill feels like to me as an outside observer that he lives in that kind of space. And you could say, well, that's because he's earned blah, blah, blah, blah. But I know, I can see people who have earned blah, blah, blah, blah and are still in that kind of frantic, tight-fisted, this has to happen. And then you add kids to that, and it's like, oh, well, I don't want to miss them. I don't want to, like that to me is the, like, there's a, I remember we were sitting at Sanford, and we had like 20 of my daughter's sorority girls at Dave's Pizza in Birmingham.

23:23Jon Acuff:And I posted like, tonight we're billionaires. Like, that's what it was. It was like, tonight we're billionaires. Because it was like, they were both loved. they're both in the sorority and there was and i was like oh tonight is the richest i've ever been yeah and those are the moments if i can land on that more consistently and not miss them like to be present to that and then also to celebrate it and be excited about it then like parenting goes a lot better my marriage goes well you know to me it's it's it's such a weird congruence like the congruence moment the like the the venn diagram moment for me that i feel like god is just starting to really help me try to understand because I'm bucking it pretty hard is it's a weird thing for me it's a weird discipline of owning things that have gone well that inform the fact that we get to do what we do right we still get to do we do because it's worked well and there's success to it and people want to have us still do it which is such a gift you know and rare really rare we've all made livings in the arts that's right that's right it's nearly impossible And so being finally at this age to accept that and not slough it off, not over humbly, but really go, man, what a gift.

24:37So one, accepting that. Then that sort of takes all the pressure off all this other stuff. and also which you spoke to i want to ask you this realizing that like man the there's nothing more futile in my job than me trying to continue to uh sell myself i can't one it's nauseating to me but two i you know i don't think that's the point anymore you know and like you can you you got to do it's you know whatever your business is on instagram you're trying to sell your stuff in your 20s and 30s to get it going. But I'm like, man, if I'm 47 and still, not still making music, I'm gonna do that. And not trying to get people to come to shows, but schlepping my stuff around, trying to sort of, you said this so earlier, like justify something in me, or you were mentioning the people you look above you, you're like, God, these people have all this money, and yet they're still, like, I don't wanna be that guy.

25:33So it's this weird moment of maturity, which is like, hey, this has worked well. I'm so glad for that. people appreciate it they come to shows they listen to my music that's huge that like accept that be still thank you lord also i want to keep doing it but it just can't look like that anymore or i'm gonna i'm gonna drive myself crazy because there's that constant need to justify my existence but two it's just such a waste of all the things you've been given because and it's that second mountain halftime falling up or name the book but are you are you what is my only challenge with

26:07Jon Acuff:halftime is it it gets a lot of successful executives to quit their jobs and be terrible youth pastors so like you like it goes your first half was about success the second half is significant yeah the first half was significant too yeah it was like and you were probably in a spot to reach more people for christ than you could have when you quit to be a terrible youth pastor like you are a ceo of a fortune 100 company yeah don't don't think oh that was all garbage like I have a friend and he says it this way he's like whenever somebody says oh you'll never be on your deathbed and wish you spent more time at the office my friend always goes you must have hated your co-workers you must have hated those people I hated being around them I'm on my deathbed even on my deathbed I'm like I hated that office it's like if you feel called to the work you're doing then you do show up fully so like I don't I always push back on that like there's a divider where it's like before I did this and now I get to do something significant.

27:06Jon Acuff:Abandoning it to do something else. So what does that look like now with you speaking, with you writing your books? Do you feel that pull toward benevolence and service? I know, and I'll just qualify it so it doesn't feel so on the spot. I just know for me, I feel that. Before it was like, I want my shows to go. I want people to love my music. I want people to love what I'm doing. I want them to think I'm great. And it's not that that's gone away, Lord knows, But I can feel the futility of it now more than I ever have. Well, my switch, like when I realized public speaking is an act of service, not an act of performance.

27:41Jon Acuff:Yeah, man. Where I was like, oh, I get to be there for an hour. The event planner's there all year. How do I make her win? Yeah. How do I like, so I want her phone blowing up. Yeah. I want her getting texts from the client, the CEO that's like, great job, you know. And so I tell other young speakers, because we're starting to teach speaking and writing. we've got this two day intensive event called stage and page because we have an office in downtown franklin and we can do 20 person events and like one of the things i say is like you're not the bride at this wedding like you're not like especially public speaking the ceo who's announcing the bonus that they're getting like that's the bride the seat the leader is the bride i say like you're you're carrying in a really great piece of chicken it better be amazing but like let's keep things in perspective because i think that takes the pressure off and it allows you to enjoy it more super serve them more so like for me if i can look at it that way and then also what am i teaching my kids like what am i what am i passing down to them about how work works and and how to like be all there but also not idolize it like it's it's a i mean i feel like it's a constant tension but i just think like i don't look back and go oh that guy was hungry for identity in a certain way and like i'm ashamed of that i'm like oh that was a different thing I was trying to establish the thing and now it's different.

28:59Well, and it takes different energy then. Oh my gosh, dude. That can present as selfishness or self-obsession. I didn't know it was terrible either.

29:06Jon Acuff:Like there's a, I think it was, there was an ad agency once that had some phrase like delusional optimism. And I was like, oh, when you do what we do, like to take a piece of work and art and tell people like this is worth money and I'm going to do it in front of you. Like, and I'm the only one with a microphone. Like that takes a delusional amount of optimism. especially when you're young. And Jenny was like, my wife was like, I was excruciating when you were first going on TV. And I was like, what do you mean? She was like, you were terrible. And I don't remember it that way. I just remember being like, yeah, I do need to be on TV.

29:37Jon Acuff:Thank you for asking. I've got so many ideas, you know? And so like, I'm so excited for you that you're listening. Yeah, you better. And I see that in other young people and I try to not throw rain on that because like we all do that. But like whenever I see like a 27 year old vlogger who's like, here's how marriage works. I'm like, oh, okay. You've been married for an hour. I can still smell the sunscreen on you from your honeymoon. The first year is a tickle fight. What are you talking about? I think I look back at that and go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's different. It's different. And then that's why procrastination proof, the subtitle is Never Get Stuck Again.

30:15Jon Acuff:I couldn't have written that as my second book because I didn't know if it was true. The 36-year-old me would have been exaggerating and hopeful. like maybe but by book 11 i feel very good going hey figure some things out how to get stuff done you know right you just said something that i needed to hear today which is which is funny john and i were talking about this like mclaughlin mclaughlin sorry i need to give flowers john m you can bask in that but i was just telling you know i was telling john before you got here like i you know i've been sort of unearthing some songs because i've not written for myself in a few months.

30:53So I was like, I'm going to go. And I've just been inundated with like, all of this sucks. It's terrible. What am I doing with my life that we all know so well? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think something that is so great about what you said that's really encouraging to me is remembering, because this gives so much clarity to people that I think are in the season where we've done something for a while, is that this book that you just wrote can't be book two. It had to be book 11. And I think for writers and artists and songwriters, I told John, one of the things that's really tricky about having kids, which I wonder if this, if you feel this with your books, but, um, cause I know you've, you've written them with your girls too, which would be so fun.

31:29But you know, I find that what they listen to, I'm listening to a lot too now that I probably wouldn't listen on my own. And so it's changed a little bit of my North Star to like, gosh, I should think more about songs like this, even though it's not really, and some of that's good cause you go like, Oh, you're always learning. But some of it is tricky because it's like, you know I'm listening to a lot of 25 year old songwriters and and I think sometimes if you're not careful I'll speak for myself some of the I'm not careful I'm like I need to be doing Forrest Frank needs to be my whole new thing it's just like that's all I'm gonna do now and I think what I needed to hear somebody say today was what you said that which is no no you need to write appropriate to where you are because that's the gift of that moment is not trying to either you sit down and go like let me tell you guys what starting a brand new business you could because you know it, but what's better from you is like, what does 50-year-old John know?

32:22Because that's your gift to the world right now. Oh, yeah, totally. It's the accumulation of those things.

32:26Jon Acuff:100%. Do you feel that, John M.? Like a sense of collective artistry that's built up and you try to write from that space? Yeah. I mean, for sure. I mean, I feel like when Dave and I were talking about that earlier before you came here. I feel like you guys hang out so often. We do. You're always like when John and I were talking. We dug an underground tunnel between our houses. I was about to say, it's like 50 feet away. I know. It's super dirty. Every time I get here, I got to change. I mean, honestly, I'm at a point where, and this may last, this may be over in six months. I don't know. Right now, I'm like, do I write right now?

33:09Like, do I need to write more music right now? I mean, Dave is so much more of a prolific writer than I ever have been. But, you know, I've got like 11 albums or 12 albums or something like that. And I've always been somebody who has, I love when I have written a song. Dave loves to write.

33:30Jon Acuff:Ah, yeah, that's different. And it's different. And I'm sure, I mean, I'll probably put out an album next year. I don't know. But right now, I'm just like, it's kind of linked to that whole, like why am I getting up on stage? I love, I mean the irony is I love performing now more than ever. I just don't feel a need to do it. If I never did it again, I think I would be content. But I love doing it now more than ever. And with the writing, it's like, well, why am I writing a new song? Do I need to write a new song? I don't know. See, to me, that's the difference between like when I meet people that are in their 60s and you're like, are you going to retire?

34:08Jon Acuff:They're like, what would I even do? I think that's different than I love what I do. Not what would I even do is like desperation of like, this is who I am. And if I don't do this, like versus going, man, I feel like I'm just getting in my sweet spot. Like I hope I speak for two more decades, like where it's like, oh, I've built up and I have a different catalog and I have a different expertise and I can talk to people in a different way versus going like, what would I even do? That feels like panic to me versus like, oh no, I love what I do. yeah where else would i be i love i mean i feel like i in this moment in this season of my life i'm like i can't even i can't imagine being bored i love i could just get up and do the things that i do like and you talk about this in your book i mean you you say at some point i can't believe i get to get up and live the life that i'm living i feel that and i want that for other people I want that for other people.

35:07Jon Acuff:That's the thing. I want other people to have whatever their version is. Yeah, that's great. That's really good. When he says you're prolific, what does that mean? You've written, your catalog is massive, or when you're in a writing year, you're doing 30 songs or 10 songs. What is prolific to a songwriter? I mean, it varies. I think all of us are built in such different ways because John's passion has always been performance, which is not mine. So it's a funny thing because as much as he would see how much I write, I'm always like, man, I really envy his, like, I want to be up on the stage like rocking the mic, you know, which he's done and so good at.

35:48But for me, man, the joy is like in this room sitting here writing songs. Solo? Yeah. That is, and writing with other people too, but I think, you know, in this context for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:58Jon Acuff:If you're listening, he loves you too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the cadre of co-writers that listen. Sorry, Reba. Dave will be like it'll be like a Tuesday and Dave will be like I think I'm gonna start working on this new album I think I'm ready I'm like in that headspace the next Thursday he'll be like I've got like eight or nine good ones and I'm like what are you talking about that's the clip that Dave if you ask any friend any fellow songwriter musician Dave Barnes is like always humming at a at a clip that's like how does the guy keep putting out these songs you know why and a lot of people would follow that with why what can you tell me why it does but in truth it's because you genuinely love i just love you genuinely love it i love it so much and i'm at a point in my life where i'm like i i could sit and and play chopin for the rest of my life but you know this moment you know what is interesting to to which circles back to what you were saying earlier uh ja um it is it is interesting being and i think we kind of talked about this earlier you and i like it's interesting being at the age now which i imagine which you're speaking to and i wonder if you feel this way with books that i'm like it's it's the first time i've ever felt like one i haven't written a song for myself and i've written a lot for other people in the last four months five months i wrote some christmas songs put out last year that's and i purposely was like i'm not gonna write for a while i just i'm okay to give it a break which is really uncommon for me and it's kind of the first time i've been okay with that and it's also like today this morning sitting down with all these old ideas it's one of the first times that i've ever thought what you asked john which is like i mean do i need to do another record like not what's well some of it if i'm not healthy is like what's the point but in sort of a i think a somewhat healthy headspace of going like i don't know do i need to like sort of what is the point not in a bad way.

37:57Yeah, yeah. But I think it's interesting being at this age, and I wonder with books, because again, 11 books is a lot of books.

38:03Jon Acuff:The 12th comes out in like three months. There you go. That one's already done. There you go. But do you ever sit like, I don't know what that looks like for you to create, but when you have, like let's say this book is done, which it is. Whenever that moment, if that's gritted out or not, where you're like, okay, I should be thinking about the next book. Have you had those moments yet? I mean, 11 is a lot of books. I don't know if that's like a lot are not a lot of books for authors it's a lot of books so do you do you feel that yet that kind of like do i do i want to say more well i mean i like i look at it and go i didn't write a my first book was like my mid-30s i'm like no wonder i was frustrated up till then yeah yeah where were all these words going yeah like remember like i do 50 to 60 speaking gigs a year right now when i was 28 i was in a cubicle like writing headlines for like a rug sale at home depot and now I look back at that guy I'm like man I get why you're so frustrated no one would listen to your ideas and I hadn't done anything that was worth listening to it's not that I was just like oh he had all this creativity bottled up it'd be like if you didn't get to write a song or pick up a guitar until you're mid 30s and then now you look back and go like dude no wonder I was so I kind of look at it that way but I'm also what I've learned is the 11th book is harder than the 10th and I thought it would get easier and I think the reality is I've already picked the low-hanging fruit.

39:25Jon Acuff:I've already dug the surface gold. I have to go real high in the tree to get to another. I've already told the easy story. I can't be like, I found another way to tell a story that happened to me when I was 27. I found a different angle. There was another camera there. I'm doing a street view. I'm going to tell it that way. That's the challenge to me is you're like, okay. This book, Procrastination Proof, the fun thing about it to me was the format. That's 100 % Jenny's idea. My wife was like, she was like, write stuff procrastinators like. Because I wrote this book called Stuff Christians Like that were short essays.

40:01Jon Acuff:Oh, that's so smart. And she was like, write stuff procrastinators like. And then I realized if you write a long book about procrastination, you're not a procrastinator. Like you're Jane Goodall writing about monkeys. I'm a monkey writing a book for other monkeys. And like when I read a Kindle and the corner says 82 minutes left in the chapter, I'm like, ugh, it's taking so long. so I was like oh I can give people short chapters where they win the entire time but it's not a book of essays it's a threaded idea but it's just I've structured it so like I think hopefully at book 11 book 12 book whatever you start to play with format too and you start to go oh that's different or like that's where you see a Paul Simon do an album where he's like I went to Africa and here's this thing that I got inspired by so like I think any author artist musician would be bored by like the seventh version of the same album well it's you know john started doing these amazing there's some of my favorite stuff that he's done is uh these instrumental piano albums that are incredible yeah and so you know you see where that energy goes where you're like yeah you know i did this beatles tribute thing oh yeah i was there i was at the uh and so um you know to your point you find these things but you you know what i you also had a moment i was i was saw your post on um how hard things are just hard that idea which is what a great i mean it sounds like the dumbest thing ever but it's so like why i wouldn't know that but i think to your point the longer we do anything especially in the creative space it just gets harder there's nothing about well there's more pressure too there's a lot more pressure when you're young you have what i call the gift of invisibility you can make your mistakes without people watching yeah like you can make your mistakes without a contract you can make your mistakes and i remember like when i was young god being very clear like i know you're frustrated but you've got the gift of invisibility so try a lot of stuff wow and now i'm like oh yeah that was a now i now the older you get the more you do it you have the gift of relationships like you have you're able to connect like i got what is it uh walker hayes yeah so walker hayes uh global leadership summit to me was like hey do you know anybody in nashville who knows him we'd love to have and we love his story it was like oh that's dave barnes like he might and then you did know him and then like walker ends up doing the thing and had a great time i'm like that's the gift of like 20 or 30 years like my big thing like i tell people in their 20s all the time i'm like don't wait like but also don't use the phrase work-life balance like i had a 25 year old young man the other day tell me like i'm trying to work on work-life balance i was like absolutely not Like these are your building years.

42:39Jon Acuff:Like go. Like you have the least amount of finances and experience. You have the most amount of time and energy. Use those two things together and like go, go, go. And like, so I love thinking about the younger person. Like, okay, how are they going to procrastinate? What are they being told that's not true? How can we tell them the truth and get them really running? Okay. So we put it off long enough. So let's talk about this because that's such a great way to get it. Why write that at 50? I'm sorry, 49, 48. When did you write that? Yeah, probably 49. Yeah, 48. Why write that now? Why write procrastination?

43:13Jon Acuff:Yeah, yeah. You know what's crazy? I went back through my first book, and I was like, did I use the word procrastination in that book? And I was like, oh, that's weird. I didn't. And then I went through the second book. I had never used it. I'd written 10 other books and never once used the word procrastination. Holy cow. So I was like, that is bonkers to me. So then I started to look at it in my own life and go, where have I procrastinated? What did I do about that? How did I figure that out? The reason I write books is I find a problem in my own life. I spent a few years trying to solve it. And then I go, hey, do other people have this problem?

43:45Jon Acuff:And if they go, we do, I go, awesome. And then I test it and then I do a book. So I wrote it because I had been really struggling with procrastination. And then once I was on the other side of it, I was like, man, I think this works. Let me go see if it works for other people. And then if it does, then I write it. So I wrote soundtracks because I'm an overthinker. I wrote finish because I struggle with perfectionism. I wrote procrastination proof because I used to be a chronic procrastinator. Which is so funny because I know we've talked about this on here before. I feel like oftentimes, and I think you mentioned it in the book that like someone could look at you, this is your 11th book.

44:21And they'd be like, John, you don't struggle with procrastination.

44:23Jon Acuff:Dustin Nickerson, the comedian was like, Oh, I rolled my eyes when I saw your title. That just means he didn't know me the first 34 years of my life. Right. Like if you ask so often, the person who has written 11 books and does speaking engagements and et cetera, et cetera, they feel like they are lazy. Oh, yeah, yeah. But that's, I do think there's an element, like, I think there's a million interesting topics, like, can you be, can you give somebody drive or do you have to be born with it? Like, you know, that's a, like, can you, you know, can you amplify it or do they have to have it already?

44:57Jon Acuff:so like but as far as feeling like a procrastinator like i'm my the book i'm gonna write probably this summer is about pessimism and optimism because i'm a naturally negative person like my default is cynicism and negativity and that surprises people but then i just go no i just learned a few years ago the roi of positivity is better than the roi negativity yeah practice it and that and so now like that's why so when somebody's naturally positive like it all and then they write a book about positivity it reminds me of like uh Steph Curry has a master class on basketball and I'm like lesson one should be be born to the third leading Charlotte Hornet of all time leading scorer of all time great start Del Curry step one be Del Curry's son step two grow up around the NBA like when you're four you're out on the court I don't like there's nothing he's gonna tell me that's gonna make me like amazing at basketball but I feel like if I'm in the trenches then I write something that helps other people that are like, oh, I'm in the trenches too.

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48:02Jon Acuff:One of the stories I tell in the book Is this guy Ted Bocelli That I worked with at Bose And Ted, I was really frustrated I was on my fourth job in five years and he seemed like way older to me. He was probably like 45, you know, like in my head he was like 900. He was like almost retiring. Gandalf, yeah. And so, but one day after a meeting, he pulled me aside and he was like, do you want to know why you're frustrated? And I was like, I was about to blame all these other people. And he goes, here's why you're mad. And he took out this napkin and he said, Bose doesn't make products, we make music.

48:36Jon Acuff:And that's a special, amazing thing. Like he said, we're the songs at weddings, where the, you know, a rock anthem in an arena. And he drew this huge, like, full rectangle. And then he said, but the problem is when Dr. Bose tells the CEO, here's what we do, he draws it a little bit smaller because he doesn't want to get in trouble. He doesn't want to go over that line, so he draws it a little smaller. And when the CEO tells the president, they draw it a little smaller. And then he goes, it keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller until what you're handed as a copywriter is a postage stamp, not a soccer field.

49:07Jon Acuff:And it's really hard to have this creative life inside a postage stamp. And what I took from that, in addition to like, oh, yeah, that's why this job can be frustrating sometimes is I'd done that with my life. Like I had drawn the borders really, really, really, really small. And then it was like, but what if I had a huge full life to play in and didn't procrastinate and didn't give my best creativity to anxiety versus, you know, a book or whatever? that's where that conversation stuck with me about like oh I'm drawing borders smaller smaller smaller smaller what does it look like to have bigger borders god that's good that's so good so you say in the book I thought the book was really really fascinating I mean procrastination I think is I can't imagine there were too many people who see this book and are like that's not something I need to I hope not I hope they see it and go we should buy a lot of copies right it's just so fascinating because I'm fascinated in my own life, the things that I will do to avoid doing other things.

50:09It's just fascinating. But you say in the book, it's not a laziness issue. Yeah, no. This is like a, you talk about how it's not a laziness issue and you talk a lot about permission.

50:21Jon Acuff:Yeah, so the core idea is like procrastination isn't a problem, it's actually a solution. It's just not a good solution. So if you don't want to tell your mom you're not coming home for Thanksgiving this year, Procrastination goes, no problem. We don't have to do that for the next seven months. Let's wait a week until it's time, and then we'll just blow it up. Or you go, I want to write a book. I really want to write a book, but I'm afraid of the criticism. And that's fair. That's an understandable. Nobody wrote a one-star review about me when I wrote advertising for Home Depot. No stranger on Amazon was like, he sucks at tile descriptions.

50:56Jon Acuff:But you write a book. If you do a concert, you cannot sell tickets. right before you do the concert you can be like yeah so like you know procrastination steps in and goes you don't have to do that i'll make sure you never have to face that criticism like it doesn't tell you the full story of like by the way you don't get to write a book and so it's not a you know it's it's been a solution for people i just don't think it's the best solution and the word that kept coming up was permission that everybody is waiting for permission to be the person that they know they're capable of like we asked 3 000 people if they feel like they're living up to their full potential and 96 % of people said no.

51:35Jon Acuff:So like everybody knows they're capable of war. And then we just don't use that word as an adult. Like you said, you didn't use procrastination. We don't use the word permission, but when we are kids, it was the most important thing. And then you go, there's elements of it throughout the Bible. Like God is constantly going, Hey Gideon, I see you in the hole. You're actually, you have permission to be a warrior. Like you are, Hey Paul, you're headed on this road. You actually have permission to do something incredibly, you know, Peter, you're a fisher of fish, you're actually a fisher of men. But then you go like Gandalf gave Frodo permission, like you have permission to change the Shire, change the whole world.

52:10Jon Acuff:Morpheus gave it to Neo, like you have permission to choose, like you take the blue pill, you wake up in your bed, believe whatever you want to believe, take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland. So once I started to research permission, it was like, oh, what if it was really that simple? Like it's not, you don't need something complicated. It's like, oh, how do I give myself permission? and then you couple that with like you're the best john salesman in the world like you're the best dave barn salesman in the world because before any decision you ever made first you talked yourself into it and like so if you if you recognize that and you're like oh how do i sell myself on the things i really desire to do not these cheap joys because we live in a cheap shallow joy world like and then and then i then like having grace for yourself that it's hard to do your stuff right now because the procrastination industrial complex is really good like the ceo of netflix in 2017 said their number one competitor is sleep yeah they're worried you're gonna go to sleep like they're worried you're gonna spend time with your wife or get in shape or write your book or whatever and i love those services i'm not like a luddite but i'm just like oh at least i know the score like their job is to get my attention my job is to keep it so that's why like it's easier to procrastinate so then i was like i bet this book could even odds that's what was fun to me i was like oh okay like we have a real enemy we have a real path how do you teach people permission as a as a practice what do you what do you see as so you know um when i think of procrastination i my brain goes to like high school and tests oh yeah sure or it goes to like um that's why a lot of people procrastinate well yeah really they think that it's a tool so there's a lot of people they've done study after study after study that it doesn't help you.

53:54Jon Acuff:But you meet people, especially creatives that go, it's part of my process. And they're remembering that in high school or college, they turned in a paper name. And it worked. And it worked. But the reality is nobody's first draft is their best. If we're honest, the thing you turned in at the last second and skidded across the finish line, if you gave yourself three more days to sit on it, you're going to find a better lyric. You're going to find a better tweak. And so it's not, but people sometimes think like, no it's actually part of my tool and i'm fine with using a deadline i use a thought like in a two-year book writing process if i tried to hold my breath from day one till the end of the two years and that that was the only finish line i'd be doomed i have deadlines throughout that i use yeah that's great but like it's not yeah but people think like oh no it's who i am so how does it as an adult how does it scale in ways that i wouldn't understand now that it either camouflages or I go, oh, that's not procrastination.

54:50Like that's, you know, that's wisdom. Or like, what are the things, does that make sense? Yeah, totally.

54:57Jon Acuff:Yeah, I mean, but part of it, like, if you say, well, I'm just too busy, that's actually a broken soundtrack because who said yes to those things? Oh, I did. Like, fine. Like, I love that you're busy with travel volleyball. They didn't come to your house. Like the travel volleyball squad wasn't like, hey, by the way, every weekend for the next 90 minutes, two weeks we're gonna drag you to a travel volleyball like but you get to kind of be the victim in that and go like versus actually looking at it and going instead we shape our life around our daughter's travel volleyball because it's her friend group and it's her passion and it's her joy and i know she's not gonna play at d1 in college that's not the point and we stay connected as a family and whatever like that's very different from going i'm just so busy like you don't have a relationship with your calendar you're putting off you're procrastinating actually being honest about like, oh, that's right.

55:47Jon Acuff:But then there's like, I mean, the simple ones are like every piece of exercise equipment that doesn't get used. Or every gym membership. I quit a gym once and they made you come in and sign a piece of paper because they knew it was enough of a hurdle. Like he'll never come to you. That's genius. Like he'll never, oh, and it's a walk of shame. You have to walk in and they're like, oh, you want us to get the quitter form? Oh, so you've given up. Yeah, there's a quitter form in the back. Here you go, fatty. Let me get it. Ring a little bell. It's genius that you guys are quitting the gym because you don't go to the gym, but you got to go to the gym to quit the gym.

56:19Yeah, it's a loop. It's genius.

56:22Jon Acuff:Yeah. So talk a little bit about, you talked about night junk and morning junk. This was one of the, and there were many of these. This is one of the parts in the book that I was like, this is so practically helpful. Yeah. Framing things this way, I feel like it'd be really helpful for the listener. Dude, if you can get this, your life totally changes. So my favorite definition of discipline that I wrote in the book is make tomorrow easy today. Wow. What can I do today to make tomorrow easy? That's all discipline is. Make tomorrow easy today. And it started from like morning me would want to get up and get after it.

56:58Jon Acuff:And I'd be groggy and I'd be tired and be like, hey, Nightmead, what happened last night? And Nightmead would be like, we doom scrolled till midnight. Then we ate a lasagna. We'd be like, you kind of screwed me, Nightmead. And like, we're the same person. It's like, hey, I don't know what to tell you, bro. and so learning to get them on the same page and learning they have different skill sets yeah so like morning me is amazing doer like morning me will run through a wall if you pick out the right wall first but if i wake up on a monday morning and it's 8 a.m and i don't have a plan i feel overwhelmed because i could do anything like and the calls are coming in the clients are coming in so like morning me needs a plan and night me is a great planner night me can spend 10 minutes at 7 p.m going hey here's what we're going to do tomorrow and then the next morning i wake up like oh great i have a plan and so getting those two on the page and then it went then you extend it you go what can monday me do to hook up friday me like if you knew we're recording this um what's that tuesday wednesday wednesday we're recording on a wednesday if you knew hey i want to chill friday afternoon so what can i do what can wednesday me do to make sure that happens like what are the things and people know this because people get a burst of creativity and energy right before vacation because they're looking ahead to their vacation they're going i don't want to have to think about this when i'm on that so how can i be extra productive and my thing there is just like well why don't you just think that way normally and here like every decision you make today is sending a blessing or a curse into your future wow like it's sending a blessing or a curse and the problem is like we write our letters the wrong direction we say things like uh what would you tell your 20 year old self if you could give your 20 year old self advice, what would you tell him?

58:37Jon Acuff:And the problem is that person wasn't looking for advice. Like I was that person. Right. The second problem is he's gone. There's nothing I can do today to change the 20 year old me, but I can do everything today to change the 65 year old me, the seven year old me. So then I just started to go, what is seven year old me going to be so glad I did today? What is 60 year old me? Like financially, what are the decisions? Like, how do I, and then I just started to plan and send gifts to the future. And then it's like, I get to Friday afternoon, it's like, oh man, I'm so glad Tuesday me hustled. Tuesday me like, you got it, you got it.

59:11Jon Acuff:And that to me is a really fun framework. I don't like the word discipline, but I love to make tomorrow easy today. Right. That works for me. And one of the things that you've talked about too, and I love this idea, is like, what is it like, everything awesome that happens came from intention? Oh yeah. Well, I always say like, nothing awesome happens accidentally. There you go. Or it's like, I've never met somebody who accidentally got in shape. Or they're like, I don't even remember getting off the couch. I was just binge watching Netflix. Next thing you knew, I was doing burpees. That doesn't count for farmers.

59:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, you know, lifting hay. And they're like, look, I'm jacked. And I was moving the cattle around. But with that idea, it sounds so much what you're speaking to, which I wonder if it's kind of like, it's maybe the opposite of procrastination and tension. It's just this idea. Because as you're talking through those things.

1:00:01Jon Acuff:Well, my opposite of that is like my definition of procrastination is when your actions don't match your intentions. So who you say you want to be isn't who you're being. Wow. There's a gap, a sizable gap often. The reverse of that is remarkable. And remarkable is when your actions match your intentions. When you say you want to be, like the Venn diagram looks like an eclipse. Like they're so overlapped. So the dad you say you want to be is the dad you're being. Like you can see, oh, I'm investing hours in those kiddos. like it's not like I want to be a good dad but I don't invest in was like no I can see that my actions overlap with that how I shape my calendar overlaps with that I you know I write I want to be a really talented songwriter so I spend time writing songs and I listen to great songs and I collect words in a certain way like I I wouldn't like I couldn't look at your catalog and go Dave says he wants to be a great songwriter but he's not writing any songs I would go man Dave says he wants to be a great songwriter and I can see 32 different things he's doing that are action related to that.

1:01:01Jon Acuff:So to me, that's the opposite. Which is funny because watch this free plug for your other books, but that's where the soundtrack piece is so necessary is because I think you have to have a reasonable definition of what you're trying to achieve so that when you achieve it, you can then know that it's done. The biggest lie is like you become disciplined and then you get a desire. That's never how it works. I've, I've helped more than a million people's goals. And I still haven't met somebody that said today, I just decided to have grit. Just woke up today, decided to have sacrifice and willpower.

1:01:31Jon Acuff:It's never how it happens. No one willingly leaves their comfort zone and they shouldn't. The first word is comfort. The only reason somebody ever leaves their comfort zone is that something outside it is worth being uncomfortable for. And it's usually one of two things. It's a desire or disappointment. So they go, I desire this thing, and it's going to become a consuming desire. Or I'm disappointed about where I've ended up. This isn't it. And it's loud enough that I'm going to do something about it. So for my life, I didn't start getting up early because I was disciplined. I started getting up early because I bumped into the desire to blog.

1:02:06Jon Acuff:And I had two kids under the age of four, and it was the only time I could do it. I didn't stop watching so much TV because I was disciplined. Just TV was giving me nothing. and blogging was giving me everything. Like I looked at my calendar, like each hour was a log and I wanted to throw as many into the fire as possible. And so that's to me, the mistake some people make is they don't have that and that like a desire or disappointment will drive the discipline. And then I did a podcast with Sean Johnson, the gold medal Olympian. And she was like, I agree with that. She said the reverse is true in the sense that on the days when the desire doesn't show up, the discipline will carry you.

1:02:43Jon Acuff:so there's this really magical land you get to with any activity where to not do it feels weird when you first start to work out run you know whatever solid core f3 like it feels weird it's uncomfortable because it's new but there gets to a season where if you miss it then it feels that's a great way to think songwriting writing connecting with your wife whatever it is like if you are in a good rhythm eventually it feels weird to not do it and that's such a sweet space god that's such Such a good way to put that. I've never thought about that. Yeah, it's interesting because I think when you think about, you said like, I want to be a good dad, you actually have to have some finish line there to be able to, like you said, to be integrated, to really think, like you said, 93 % of the people are like, I'm not fully realizing who I am.

1:03:33Well, that 7 % who've actually got a clear thing that's like, man, for me to be a great dad has been this much time with my kids to sort of have these kind of interactions and I'm doing it. and I don't think about that anymore because I think I'm doing it and that to me is a gulf to cross but it's such a helpful thing to think about it's like but I think about it

1:03:53Jon Acuff:like the way I think about that is older people are time machines they've been to the future you want to get to and if you'll ask them how they did it they'll save you time so like somebody who's 70 has been to that future I can look at my life we can look at musicians we can look at parents whatever and go yeah the way they shaped that I'm going to figure out how they did that So like my favorite example, and this is such a perfect example of like parallel ideas happening at the same time. I know this couple in their late 60s and their daughter who was in her 30s had this big European trip that she had planned with her friends and all their friends had to cancel.

1:04:26Jon Acuff:And so she called her parents and was like, hey, would you come to Europe with me and do it? And they said yes. And it was amazing. And I realized they were able to do it because they had five types of wealth. Number one, they had health wealth. They were physically able to do it. Europe is made of stairs. Number two, they had time wealth. I knew the husband. He had been offered a CEO position when he was in his early 60s, and he passed on it. And he said, it'll just be some extra zeros on an already good life, and I don't want to miss my kids. Jeez. So they had time wealth. Number three, they had financial wealth.

1:04:55Jon Acuff:They could drop 20 grand out of nowhere on a trip. They had wisdom wealth. They made the right decision. You can make a lot of money and still make the wrong decision. They had wisdom wealth. And the fifth is they had relational wealth. Their 30-year-old daughter wanted to be with them. so then I go on my end and I go oh how do I make sure I'm leaning towards those five types of wealth so that when I'm in my late 60s I have the opportunity to do that too like I want to be able to do that too and what's wild is so I wrote this idea down based on this interaction I had with this couple and then there's a book that came out called like the five types of wealth and like dude I'm not even lying and like it's exactly that just different words and it's not for me like I just wrote it in my journal like it wasn't it was just one of those funny things where like Like Armageddon and Deep Impact come out at the same time.

1:05:43Jon Acuff:We're like, asteroids? For real? We both are doing asteroids? Like no asteroid movies for 50 years. We got to jam them both down people's throat. So like I'll never write about it. It's just an idea for me. I'm like, oh, but I can look ahead at that person and go, that's the goal. Because like I guarantee you guys are the same way. We're like, when I was young, I might get excited about something shiny or somebody's shiny career. but now I'm like I don't care about the artist that has one album or like the YouTuber that pops off for a year the guy writes one book I care about the 30 year 40 year sustainable and I'm like oh their kids love them their wife loves them that's the person I'm like how do I how do I end up there that's a fun you talk about a finish line with parenting I think it was Andy Stanley who said like one of his parenting goals is your kids hang out with you when they don't have to that's such a great it's such a clear dadville goal like when they don't have to they still want to be around you yeah and then i go like i want the house they show up to with their grandkids so like we deliberately bought a mountain house to create a space to create enough core i mean like we've talked about that with property and stuff there's enough core memories now that my kids are like oh we can't wait to come back to that it only takes like seven times to create a core memory like it's so small and and so that's fun to me yeah So you're amazing and you're a genius and you've written a million books.

1:07:07What, anything coming up that you want to tell people about?

1:07:09Jon Acuff:Yeah, stage and page, dude. If you're a writer or a speaker, like I'm telling you, I think I can save you years on the process. Wow. Like I'll just, I'll just give you one, I'll give you one thing that's helped a lot. I'll give you two things. If you're, if you're a speaker for 10 years, I made this mistake and you should never make it. I'd be at an event and I'd be in the lobby after and somebody go, oh, we'd love to book you at our event. And I go, great. Here's my card. And I just gave them a job. I just assigned them a job. They're going to lose the card by the time I get to the hotel room.

1:07:37Jon Acuff:So then what I learned to do is, oh, let me get your cell phone. Let me get your email. I'll follow up. I own the follow up. One of the greatest soundtracks you can use that will change your life is, are you signing the front of the check or the back of the check? Or younger, are you sending the Venmo or receiving the Venmo? Meaning, am I working right now for somebody? Then I'm signing the back of the check. Like I had some musicians the other day. we were at a big event it was 7am in a ballroom in Orlando on a Saturday that's a fun music event they were about to do like an HR version of Cool and the Gang's celebration like where they had changed the words to be about HR and they were all grumpy like every musician there was grumpy because there's no 16 year old that gets a guitar and goes someday ballroom someday celebration with HR lyrics and I said did you sign the front of this check or the back of the check and they were like back of the check and I was like you better get that attitude like you're like and then the reverse is true too of like there's times when i hire contractors and to do something for me and they try to assign it back to me and i'm like oh no that's not how that works like you and so like for me if you as a speaker get that attitude now it's your job to follow up you have the most skin in the game at the second event not them as an author the tip i'd give you, I learned a million dollar lesson on titling.

1:08:54Jon Acuff:Like the book do over flopped because of the title. And it had like Seth Godin, who's one of my marketing heroes said it's the greatest career book ever written. And like it had all the marketing, the title, which I thought was positive, like right from the ashes, you can do it. The general public saw as negative. They looked at it and said, so you failed. And there's not a wife on the planet who wants to buy a book for her husband goes this is about people who have a terrible career and have blown it made me think of you put this on the love you this is about failures and so like the next book i wrote finished the initial tide subtitle was stop making perfect the enemy of done and we changed it to give yourself the gift of done and it tripled the sales of do-over and so like i had to learn how to like advertise the problem but offer the solution so soundtracks is a great example that soundtracks and then the subtitle the surprising solution to overthinking and we put overthinking in yellow to go like hey overthinkers this is for you but it's not a negative book like procrastination proof like procrastination but you're going to be proof you're never going to get stuck again so titling ideas like that is amazing you don't have to pay that same lesson I've already bought it I bought the heck in a very expensive way I would love to just tell you here's how to title a book like so yeah stage and page it's just johnacob.com slash stage.

1:10:15And y 'all doing any more live events? I know y 'all had the... We just had one a couple weeks ago. Yeah.

1:10:19Jon Acuff:So we're doing some small ones kind of as that test. God, that's so cool. Look at you, man. Changing the world. Paying for college too, I'm sure. Who's the next guest? Who's coming up next? Who did I open up for? Garth Brooks? Garth should be here. He likes to do the unique. He gets stuck at the fence too. Well, yeah, the handle, dude, is impossible. Yeah, it's our first... I know one of your children would just go... Yeah, yeah. He's been meaning to... We sort of know how the podcast is going to go by if people can actually get into the back yard. He's procrastinating on getting around to that fence.

1:10:49Exactly.

1:10:50Jon Acuff:Yeah, I got what you said, John. Thanks, John. Looked me up.

1:11:02From Geico Subconscious News, I'm Tammy Racing Thoughts. Tonight, you just left for work and had a non-specific feeling that something was happening to your place and it wasn't good. Dan?

1:11:11Jon Acuff:Exactly, Tammy. It could be smoke damage, theft, or just too much caffeine, but you can't stop thinking about it. But with renter's insurance through GEICO, your stuff is covered, so you don't have to worry. And that's great, because the weekend is coming up, and it's chock full of social obligations that are ready to fill that void. Oh, boy. Will they, Dad? It feels good to worry less. It feels good to GEICO.