Hypothetical Equestrian Punctuality with McKittrick Simmons

19:23Jon McLaughlin:And that's why we upgraded to bowl and branch. I knew you knew that I was going to say. No, I want to be clear. Not you and I. No. We separately. Yeah, we corporately. Yeah, yeah. Definitely not. It's wild how big of a difference it made immediately. They make everything too. Everything, John. Not just sheets. Their signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, comforters. It's all designed to be super soft, breathable, and actually work together. Just like us. Yeah. You know, we started with the signature sheets. Okay. And the first night I got into bed, I knew this is different. Different, yeah.

19:53Jon McLaughlin:This is soft. Yeah. This is cooler. Okay. Just more comfortable overall. Though they didn't come with a signature. And that, I want to be clear. Right. No, no, no. It's their signature sheets. You're not going to get a Michael Jones. We can't be more clear on that. And the sheets, they get, you know what, just like me, John, which I don't like, they get softer over time. You know what? I'm trying to, but to quote Mercy Meal, I can't imagine sleep without Bowlin Branch right now. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15 % off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com slash dadville with code dadville.

20:27Jon McLaughlin:That's bowlinbranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash dadville. Code DADVILLE to unlock 15 % off. Exclusions apply.

20:40Okay, so here, this is going to be maybe the hardest letter. Thank you for that intro, Barnes.

20:45Jon McLaughlin:You're welcome. We just wrapped up the intro. That's the intro. Can I just add one more thing? I just want people to know, obviously you guys have been friends for a long time. McKittrick, you are the number one name that I have heard. I've never heard a name more And not met the person Kind of like you were saying By the time we met yesterday Would you have said that we were friends? Yeah, I've heard your name so many times That I feel like I've never met this human being But I feel like I have a full picture Can I give you the downside of having a three-syllable name? Yeah When you have a three-syllable name It's hard to cheer Well, it's easy to remember It's a memorable name And I am better remembering I'm not great at remembering names.

21:35I'm really good at remembering some things. Names are not like my wheelhouse. And a lot of people remember my name because they've never heard it before. And so I have had to learn like a gymnastics routine of how to respond. Hey, McKittrick, how's it going? I'm like, hey. Oh, yeah, because everybody remembers. Yeah, yeah. Brother? Yeah, hey, brother, man. You know, what's going on? Ladies. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen. Well, you're also a very memorable person. Okay, so this will be, I want to preface everybody, this is going to be the hardest left-hand turn in the history of dadville. Okay. Because I've just cried laughing, and we're about to enter a really heavy question.

22:12But I think to jump off, and I warned you. Yeah. But before I get there, so people know a little more, you grew up in Atlanta. You have four sisters who are younger than you. Yep. You're the oldest of five. Yep. And I just thought, and I warned you of this, But I thought as people are getting to know you in this episode, because I feel like sometimes when we bring in people that, you know, aren't public facing or whatever, it's like I want to make sure people know, hey, this is why we thought this would be a great conversation. But because you've got 100 of these touch points in your life because it's such a fascinating life.

22:42But I think one of the things, especially I think about Dadville, it's so pertinent to your story, but also is such a great thing just to hear you talk about. because you have so much wisdom around this, is your dad's death at the age that he died. And I would say, too, just the way it happened, how old you guys were. Can you kind of walk us a little bit through that? Yes. Because as you said, and obviously this would be true, but that's a huge part of your story. Big time. And it informed so much of your life. I mean, in the most backwards thought I think I could have ever anticipated, I mean, I would say it actually is one of the things that I've really benefited from it.

23:26There's been a big benefit over time from it. Although I would change it. Right. If I could change one thing, I'd change that. Of course, yeah. Was it Richard Rohr who coined terrible blessing? I don't know. I think it was Richard Rohr. The terrible blessings? Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. Well, gosh, I feel like I should take a deep breath just to get in that space because you can— I know. I told you it's a hard left turn. Well, you can tell stories of loss and tragedy. You can talk through the facts very factually, but it's actually a deeply emotional, you know, you can also weep, especially with tragic things, you know.

24:05So the, and John, I don't know if you know this or not, you know, the story was, you know, I was 12 years old, four younger sisters. Dad was my best friend. Coached my soccer teams. Amazing dad. I mean, just like as far as dads go, like, you know, franchise player. He was really amazing. Greg Simmons. Greg Simmons was his name. And he died because we have our family. Mom and dad had bought a farm in Highlands. And three of my four sisters and I went on a hike with him. And we hiked up this thing called Satula Falls. And while we were hiking, it was during a drought that summer. and he grabbed onto a big branch, like a tree that broke and he fell down like a 300 foot waterfall.

24:54Yeah. And it's like, gosh. I mean, I think in this conversation, it's like important to remember. I mean, it was just such an awful moment. You know, it was a tragic, it was a really tragic thing. I was 12. So just like that, he's gone.

25:19And so that experience, you know, that experience did really shape my life. I mean, I think that moment actually shaped my life, like that actual moment. And then I haven't seen it since. You know, so just to be a 12-year-old kid or to be a middle school boy, to be in high school and just to not have a father, it continues to shape my life. I still think about my dad all the time. I really do. I think about him all the time. And how old was he? I think he was 41. He was 41 or 43 so he was young. He was in the prime from what I'm told, he was in the prime of being Greg Simmons. He was a beloved person.

26:05Very dynamic guy. It's amazing. I mean, one of the things I'm so grateful for is I did have the benefit of having a father for 12 years. So I actually got a lot. I mean, 12, I mean, our youngest, Kitsch, is getting ready to turn 11. And so the idea that Kitsch wouldn't get to know me after that is just, I'm like, oh, gosh. Yeah. And your youngest sister was how old at the time? Two. Two. She was two. So the girls were like seven to two, basically. So young. So my mom was a widow, five kids, and she was like 41 years old.

26:48But knowing, having a dad that I admired and felt loved by for 12 years, I would say in some ways I feel like I got a better, I was dealt a better hand than other friends I know who have had fathers their whole life. Yeah. And it's just kind of been a curveball. Yeah. So with the benefit of time, I realized I got a lot in 12 years. What did that next month, six months, year look like for you? It's kind of a blur. I mean, I feel like the grieving period just takes you into, it kind of takes you just into low battery mode. I just think your spirit, your nervous system, you just kind of go into almost like a hibernation state because you're in so much pain.

27:32You're in so much pain. But that's also how I met, that's really how I met the Lord. And mom and dad were like dynamic people, generous. Dad's speaking at Young Life Camps. He's a big business guy. So I grew up in a family that going to church and faith was definitely, like as a kid, you're like, sure, it looks good to me. You're just kind of, if you guys say so. But that was a real moment for my relationship with the Lord. I was so mad. Just as a 12-year-old, like, dad was, like, the best. Why would you take one of the good ones? I just could not understand of all, you know, and a 12-year-old's black and white mind.

28:13You're like, there's a lot of bad people out there. Why would you take one of the good ones? You know? So I was really angry, very angry. And that was the first step. And what the Lord told me, and this is one of those things, I think this is probably true for all of our, everybody's faith is so mysterious, you know, because it's so singular. It's just so singular. Your connection and how you connect with the eternal is so specific to you. I'm sure there's things that we have in common, but you're very singular. There's only one John McLaughlin. You're experienced in life. What the Lord told me, I was told, I was at my dad's grave.

28:51They're by myself. I'm growing up real fast at that moment. He really told me he loved me. I was asking these questions of why. and the thing he came back with he'd never he still has not answered a lot of those questions honestly yeah um but what he did tell me is that i love you and i just and i just felt it's hard to describe because it sounds kind of crazy but i just felt the presence of the lord i really felt the presence of the lord and he it's kind of like in that since that time that is either enough for me and sometimes it's felt like it's not enough they have all these questions why does this happen and I need to understand that's not fair.

29:32And I've kind of spun off into other things, and it's kind of like, he's never answered a ton of those questions for me, but he has been very present. And I've kind of bobbed and weaved of whether his presence was enough for me. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know if that's enough. Were there men that stepped in? Big time. Yeah, my parents had a great community of friends who really showed up. my dad's brothers, my uncles, people in our church. And so there's a lot of older men who were friends of my dad. I think it's what my friends would do if something happened to me. I think my friends would rally.

30:14You know, just like taking me to breakfast, taking me to Braves games. I mean, I don't remember a single thing we talked about, but they were present. Yeah, right. It kind of reminds me, I think it was the Donald Miller book years ago where he started one of his books talking about the elephants, the young elephants, the bull elephants. And the parents had been poached, and so these young elephants were rampaging through the cities. So they picked them up and transported them by helicopter back out into the savannah, and then the other, the herd, kind of went around them. And I think it said that the bull elephants kind of slapped them around a little bit, you know, just like literally like with their tusks and like pulled them into the pack.

30:57and then those orphaned bull elephants then were part of the family again. I was like, that is such a – I mean, that's the hope we have in the world because people – not everybody gets great parents. But we're all – you don't have to have the best mother and father in order to fully develop into who you're supposed to be. So even if you get dealt a tough hand with your parents, not all hope is lost. and friends and uncles and mentors can really fill in the gaps and teach you the things that you want to know so wasn't there some crazy Ravi Zacharias connection there was yeah his life ended in a tough tough way yeah Ravi I wrote a letter I wrote a letter to some friends of my parents I remember writing at my desk I think it was that summer and they're still friends of ours.

31:55In fact, the place, we're having my 50th birthday party, John Wieland, that letter was to John Wieland. Wow. Yeah. And so I wrote John and Sue Wieland a letter and it was basically about thanking them for being such great friends. I'd seen what great friends they'd been to my mother and I was thanking them for being such great friends. Wow, 12, that's a pretty mature thing to do. I know. It totally made sense to me. I couldn't tell you why. but yeah I wrote it and they were very moved by it and in the letter I was writing about why I thought dad died I was like I think we're all asking a lot of questions of like how did this happen why does this happen and I think I knew I was like I think I know why this happened you know and so I was writing this letter just as you know and they were so moved by it they shared it with my mom and somehow my grandmother I think saw it Fran Simmons who you don't want to talk about like the eighth wonder of the world.

32:55She was like a force of nature. So somehow it got to Ravi. They were friends. They supported Ravi's ministry. Ravi somehow saw that letter and was so moved by what I was talking about as a father. I was writing about my father, and then I was talking about the heavenly father, of how the heavenly father really cares about. Like in the scriptures, he calls out fatherless children. He talks about widows and orphans, fatherless children and that's that in in the world he pays a special attention to those situations you know the the um those struggles um so he was very moved by it and um came to our house one day um we just came by we sat remember he mom's like this guy robbie zacharias is coming i was like 12 or 13 years old so i was like okay you know so he wants to talk to you so we went sat on the back porch.

33:45She's like, hey, I read your letter. And man, I was so moved by the depth of what you were talking about, about a relationship with a father, of like just how core a father is. And I wanted to ask your permission if I could use your letter in my next book. Jeez. You know, I was like, yeah, you're like, sure. You know, should charge royalties. Yeah, let's talk numbers. Let's talk about that. So he did, yeah. So he did, and I remember reading it, and he used the letter. I mean, gosh, anybody who knows Robbie's story, I mean, tragic, tragic. But I'll tell you, he was a great friend to me. He really was.

34:25He was a great friend. He was very encouraging.

34:30All people are conflicted. He had some things that are really sad, but I'll tell you, my experience with him as a friend was good. And when I read it in the book, I was like, wow. It's almost like you read the letter. I didn't even feel any pride in writing it. I read it. I'm like, wow, that's cool how he used that. You wrote that. I'm like, that's crazy. Having walked through that at that age, as a dad now, how does it iterate? How is it iterated into your life in general, and how is it iterated into you being a dad? Losing a parent, losing a dad, especially a father. I only know what it's like to be a son.

35:08I don't know what it's like to be a daughter. My sisters would probably have a different experience having lost them at their age. Losing a father as a 12-year-old is different than a 7-year-old. I have a lot of memories. I have a lot of core memories with dad. Sarah, my youngest sister, doesn't remember dad.

35:27Losing a father at that age, the benefit you get is one of the most important, in my opinion, One of the most important things that happens in a person's life is when your heart breaks.

35:44Heartbreak, you would never choose it for your kids, but you know heartbreak is going to be one of the things where you discover the things that are the most real. You're going to discover the things about yourself that are really important. That broke my heart. I had a broken heart at an early age, which I think really helped me through middle school, high school, college. I just had a different perspective. That was very lonely. The downside of it is I felt very lonely at times because other people just didn't even know what it felt like.

36:22And then it changed my relationship. I had some great mentors and counsel who pointed me in the right direction of nobody can be your father. The Lord has a special place in his heart for you. You're going to have to go explore that because he's kind of your father now. And that's a privileged place to be. That's actually a privileged place to be. And they pointed me like Proverbs. They're like, you know, because you're not going to have somebody giving you advice the way a dad can give advice, Proverbs is a great book that gives a lot of fatherly advice. Like I read Proverbs a lot as a kid. And it turned out it was actually very practical.

36:59you know I mean there's just some things in there that's like you know if you have to choose between walking with wise people or foolish people you should walk with wise people because foolish people break stuff and it's bad you know bad things happen so you're kind of like well not that I didn't do that again I was drinking a beer with Dave Matthews at 14 I was about to say let's not forget yeah so the depth in the broken heart later in life I would say man that really did that really has helped me a lot and I think it protected me because we grew up in a pretty affluent area Buckhead in Atlanta that can be a real distraction that can be a real distraction to anybody and so I think that was less maybe less of a distraction for me because of that but I'll tell you an interesting thing about raising kids, we have four kids boy, boy, girl, boy senior in high school down to fifth grade and I have noticed how much more confident I've felt being a dad up to the age of 12.

38:02Wow. And then after they got to the age of 12, I really felt like, gosh, I don't have a reference point.

38:08Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. It felt very uncomfortable of like, I was never a 15-year-old boy with a dad. You know, so I've told Greg, our oldest, who, you know, I've told Greg many times, where I'm like, Greg, I just kind of offer kind of like a permanent apology that you are such a beta test for us. Everything we're doing with you is the first time. It's kind of, a lot of it's an educated guess. And I bet, I bet that we're going to look back on some things and you're going to be like, gosh, you guys got this wrong. I'm like, we did. We did. I'm like, and I don't, I just don't know what it was like. He's a senior in high school now.

38:46So, you know, it's like, that's a whole different thing. and I just don't know what it's like to have a dad in your life when you're 17 years old so it's I have definitely felt that gap what was it like when you reached the age that your dad was when he died I remember we talked about that gosh you and I talked about that I am shocked how much of an impact it had on me saying but a similar thing that I felt like I had a roadmap because I would say of all, I mean, I have known and know some truly great men. I mean, faithful, generous, just, I mean, just the kind of people you're like, man, it's so good these kind of people are in the world, you know.

39:29And of all the men that I have admired, dad is the number one. I'd say if someone says, who's the greatest man you ever know? By far, dad. By far. Now, I never, I knew him as a 12-year-old, so I never even got to the age where you might have like conflict. I'm sure as a teenager and a college kid, we would have had our issues or whatever. I just never got to that point. I was like, he was a soccer coach. I'd score goals. He'd high five. Go get a Frosty. It's pretty great. Get a Big Mac and life's good.

40:01But just the roadmap of dad's life, when I got to his age, I did not know how much of my life I had modeled after him. you know i mean almost almost to like the letter and and the number you know i'd really paid attention to stuff and when i got to that place and i had always had a goal i mean i had always had a goal that i wanted to exceed dad in different things i think i think i feel this with my boys where yeah it's sort of baked in it's kind of baked in of like i mean i know greg and thatcher and kitsch i mean i don't this probably isn't as applicable to bailey our daughter i think that they love me and I'm a big, I'm a fixture in the sky for them.

40:43You know, I'm a, I'm a presence and they also want to take me down.

40:47Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. You know, they want to take me down and Merit. I don't know if Merit agrees with this, but I told her, I'm like, you know, one of the things about Greg and Thatcher now, especially I'm like, you know, they want to kill me. You know, we've got a great dynamic, but I'm like, they want to take me, they want to beat me. They want to see, and I'm like, and I want them to beat me, but I'm not going to let them be like, they got to beat me fair and square. It's got to be true. Fair and square. If you play chess, I'm not going to let you win. So with Dad, I think I had that. I'm like, I admire him so much, and I kind of want to beat him.

41:18So when I got to that point in life, and I felt like I had gotten to and exceeded maybe that goal I had, it felt like the map ran out. It's like if you have those topographic maps, I feel like I got and it just became a blank page. It was very disorienting. And you weren't expecting that. Caught me totally off guard.

41:42Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. So I'd say it's been kind of a disorienting time in some way since then. There's been all kinds of great things that have happened. I turn 50 next month. And so since that time, I can now look back on it and say, There was a real touch point there that that was kind of the starting of an unwinding of things that I didn't know was unwinding. But now that I look back, I'm like, I think I did feel like, all right, you kind of have to get a new lens to understand the world. Because you were made to be you. And you got to figure out what that means. and that's why i literally just started singing the hills are alive with the sound of music oh my gosh yeah you looked gorgeous in that dress too so much a lot of grass stands speaking of grass stands you know this time of year once spring hits man it seems like we're always outside you know in the yard or what's left of the yard running around in our dresses and the house is kind of on its own most of the time you know yeah it's like a constant rotation of people in and out.

42:51Doors opening, packages showing up. I mean, it's a lot. You know, that's actually why we started using Cove.

42:57Jon McLaughlin:I just wanted to know what's going on at the house when we're not paying attention. Yeah, same. I love that I don't have to wonder anymore. I know. You could wander now. Stop your wondering and get to wandering with Cove, guys. If something shows up or there's movement, I get a notification. You can check it right then. You know what? We had one the other day, middle of the afternoon. We're all out back. I mean, here in the States, not in the outlet, but like in our backyard. And I got an alert from the front door. I checked it. It was just a delivery. But normally I'd be like, wait, how long has that been sitting there?

43:30Now it's handled. And you know what, as Australians would say, and now it's easy to get going. No wires, no drilling. It's all peel and stick, classic P &S. I had it up and running in like half an hour.

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44:18And so then I was like, I can't even just not change a tire. It's not even my car. Oh my gosh. I love going to dealerships.

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45:45Jon McLaughlin:Go to shopify.com slash dadville. That's shopify.com slash dadville. Well, you know, another thing I wanted to talk about which I referenced earlier, which dovetail joints really well here, because I think one of the ways I think from the sidelines of your life that I think it iterated was that you've always had a robust group of friends around you. I mean, how many groomsmen did you have? Was it 15? It was something. It was up there. It was in that range. Again, men from all over the world. Yeah. And so I think one of the things God's really blessed you with that might be from that pain is a sort of unquenchable thirst for connection and friendship.

46:29Yeah. And so one of the ways you've impacted my life so much was meeting you when I met you. You had been in D.C. for a while living with a bunch of very intentional guys doing work there. And then you travel with Lane across the states or across the world, revisiting those guys and where they're from. And I just remember meeting it. It was such a providential meeting in a billion ways. But in that time in my life, you know, I had really good friends. But I think, you know, and especially a couple of these friendships, they were getting tough. Like stuff was getting kind of tricky to navigate, words especially.

47:11Because you have two guys doing the same job. We were traveling all the time together. Same business, same age. Same business, same age, that's right. And so, same level of kind of handsomeness. And so, because John wasn't around. Because that would have thrown the bell curve, get screwed at that point. But it's the Princey face. Yes. You know, the Princey features. Especially nose. But, you know, we come to see y 'all. Ed is, I play, you know, Ed's got a show. I'm riding with Ed Cash down there to see it. He's like, I really want to go see my buddy McKittrick. I'm like, I don't want to go see McKittrick.

47:41I want us to hang out because I got so hard to get one-on-one time with Ed. But he's like, we're going to see this guy. I meet y 'all. Y 'all are living in kind of, was it round one of the kind of hang at that point? Because y 'all hadn't yet moved over to West Paces Fair. We were living in Virginia Highlands, like two good buddies. But we were thinking about, gosh, it'd be fun if we could get a bigger house. With more guys. And before we all get married, if we could have like eight of us living together. We were thinking and praying about that. We didn't know what we were. But you had done that.

48:10You had been in D.C. doing that. Yeah. So anyway, we meet. As we get to know each other, me and Wurtz start coming. When we're in Atlanta, we just come stay with y 'all at this house. Now this is round two. Yeah. It's like, how many guys were living there? I think it was like eight or nine. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of guys. Yeah. I had never seen intentional male friendship. Yeah. I mean, you guys were a parade of these guys who were wonderful, really just good guys choosing to share deep, intimate things, encouraging each other, challenging each other. You guys were out in the community doing things.

48:47And it was just phenomenal. But not just that. And I think the thing that was so... Such a fun time. Such a fun time. So many memories. But Wurtz and I kind of had our inaugural kind of conversation with y 'all where everybody was sitting at the table. Yeah. And we're eating with y 'all, and it just kind of, the mood shifted. And all of a sudden, one of your superpowers is question asking. You are probably the most wonderful, annoying question asker I know. But if you spend any time with you, you're going to get asked a lot of questions. True. And so you guys, which was so new to me, and just the me monster was like, would love that ask me all the questions you won't I've got but you know so we're sitting there and like one of the first questions that happens like do you remember what you asked I feel like you brought it up the other day I think I remember we were talking about y 'all's businesses or just your tours or whatever and I think we talked about do you guys ever resent each other which can you imagine that question as a 20 your best friend but sometimes your shows are probably bigger than his or it's not always equal so like how's that feel Wirtz and I in our own hearts had had just these little crockpots that are, you know, the lids are just barely staying on.

49:59And you have this group of guys that we really liked and respected who are a couple of years old are going, hey, I think we should talk about this. And it revolutionized Wirtz and I's friendship in so many phenomenal ways. I mean, hard initially, but all of a sudden we had this verbiage to go, hey, we should probably talk about this. And our friendship just exploded. but then it was like taking this into the rest of my life which I have ever since which is like there's this sub you know this sub uh terranean level of friendship I didn't have access to yeah that if like you guys yeah we're like hey if you want to do this you can actually have these really robust friendships that are very vulnerable yeah and uh it's hard but it's so life-giving it's freeing it's like everything's on the table You're not doing that weird thing where you're like, I wonder if he thinks this or whatever.

50:53And it was, I mean, it was life changing for me. And you were kind of like the tutor of that for me. I feel like you were the first person that I was around that was like, hey, like. Because we were just a little ahead of you guys in life. I mean, at that age, if you're five years older, the difference between a 27 year old and 22 year old is a lot. There's a lot of maturity that happens. Yes. In that window. But again, you especially had sort of done that so much in D.C. You had really sat at the foot of some really wise people going, hey, you group of guys live in this house. We want you all to do this well.

51:27So you had reps. I mean, you had probably not 10 ,000 hours, but at least five to my zero. I had definitely become – I think you're – I'm probably naturally relational extrovert. Like I get energy from people. And so I had always, even without a bigger idea, just naturally done that. And yeah, it's like, I think I'd gotten interested in just like, friendship to me just always made so much sense of like, this is one of the big ideas, like of being friends. But I'd had a lot of different kinds of friends. I'd had fraternity brothers. I'd had teammates. I'd had work colleagues, you know. And so then friendship, here's like, there's a lot of different kinds of friendship and you're not going to be deep with everybody.

52:14I had gone through the time of life where I thought you get to hand pick your friends I think that's kind of like the fraternity culture where you're like I'm going to hand pick the coolest to be in the front who's in who's out and I was kind of seeing through guys like ladies and gentlemen the Balwino who's still a very dear friend and I don't know I don't think Baldwin and I would have been in the same fraternity we probably wouldn't have picked each other in college and then you saw this friendship emerge where you're like, I don't feel like I picked this. I feel like this was picked for me.

52:48You're starting to come into a little more experience of, man, I don't know if I picked my friends actually. I feel like there are some ways, because chemistry is such a real thing, and you can't fake chemistry. The dynamic of some people is just, I've known you for a grand total of an hour and 15 minutes now, and I would say now, I think our dynamic's good. you know I bet you and I will like each other in life you know a lot of things in common and like then you meet some people you're like oh man this feels a little kryptonite-y you know so I think that that time of life I mean one of my favorite stories of how this really really helped me was when I met Meredith I was 29 Meredith was no no I was 26 and she was 19 I think she was still in college and the first real question she asked me on her first date is she said so tell me tell me your favorite thing about yourself you know and so my first my first time my first answer was like well that'd be my dance moves you know which and i'm not so i was just that's just kind of make her laugh you know you're kind of doing you're like hey it's a first date dance um and but i was like the i was like the thing that you would be amazed and this is still true i was like the thing that you would be amazed by is when you meet my friends, I have the most incredible group of friends I think you've ever seen.

54:12You know, and I was like, I feel like it has been given to me as a gift. I don't know why it was given to me, but I have just been given these friends that have completely changed my life, you know? And for Meredith, I didn't know this, but that may have been the best answer to that question. For sure. And she was kind of like, I'm interested. Yeah. Yeah. Because she was already such a deep soul. And then she got to know my friends. I think that was a big part of us learning to trust each other, where she's like, man, this guy really has learned to be friends with people of integrity. Well, you know what I would add, too, is the intentionality piece.

54:51Because I think when we spent time with y 'all... Why does that make you cry, Barnes? I don't know, man. Both of you are tearing up. I think it's true of me too. So you can relate? Yeah, and I just think the blessing – actually, you're doing that thing. I know you do. This is not – you're our guest. You need to ask questions. But I don't know. I think I'm just like – as I get older, man, it's like, God, that is such a gift. but I think to your point I think I also get emotional because it's like the intentionality of you guys wasn't just like we had friends but you know what I mean like Forrester like Rob being like tell me stop Dave I feel like you're bypassing the answer answer what we're asking why is this hard or what is it you're envious of in words and it was just like this is so freaking intense but it's like surgery it just felt like we gotta sort of answer some things guys to get to real stuff.

55:55And so I think that kind of friendship is just such a neutron bomb of a friendship. It just feels like you're just kind of cutting away all those things. You're kind of like, I'm a little limited in this friendship because I just don't know. But to sit with you guys and have these people that were like, hey, one, we're doing this. You need to understand before we ask you questions, we're doing this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is it. Ask me back. Yeah. Yeah. Ask me back. This isn't a one way thing. Like we're doing this too. So we're just kind of inviting y 'all into questions we ask each other.

56:24And so I think that was something that was so potent, was just realizing, man, there's this intentionality piece that's so intense.

56:36I still get to hang out. There's a Thursday morning group that comes to our house that has been this surprisingly wonderful, consistent thing that started with some guys who were, I don't think you know many of these guys, but Andrew Burns, Todd Edstrom, there's this group of guys who mostly went to Clemson, moved to Atlanta, and we went to breakfast, and they're like, we heard that you guys grew a lot in your 20s. And they're like, it seems like your 20s can go either direction. That can be a real purgatory time of just lost in space, or it can be a real jump start. And they basically asked me, how do you grow in your 20s?

57:17I remember at that breakfast saying I don't know exactly I'll tell you one thing I think makes a big difference and I don't understand why this works I do think it works, I don't know if it's for everybody I think reading the scriptures consistently can really help you just keep in your head because there's thoughts in the scriptures that you will not hear anywhere else in the world reading Genesis, reading Proverbs the New Testament take your pick there's just something about the scriptures that is very mysterious, that in your 20s, I would encourage you to be reading those as best you can. And they're kind of like, we don't know how to do that.

57:54So I was like, well, you're welcome to come. I don't either, but you're welcome to come to my house. So we have been reading the Bible together on Thursday mornings, and now the group's kind of ebbed and flowed. And it's been this thing. It's amazing how impactful, starting the day, we joke around, we call it a no theologians allowed Bible study. where we're like the disciples, man. Where you're like, you read something, and I'm like, I don't get it. Yeah. Do you understand that? I don't understand what he's talking about. And so we just read it, and then they're like, okay, so you read this? I'm like, John, how does that strike you?

58:31And the other thing I remember talking to him about is like, Like, men in middle school, high school, college, it's easy to start becoming a little sneaky. Yeah. Yeah. Where you don't really know how to tell the truth. You know how to true some of the truth. There's some truth you're okay talking about, but then there's some truth that you don't want to talk about. It's like, friendships can be a great way of like, can we work on trying to tell the truth? You know, so like, how are you doing with this? Like, what decisions are you making? And when you first, I think when you first start doing that, it is kind of awkward because you're all kind of like complicit in each other's shadow world.

59:15That's such a good way to say that. You know, of like, you got some shadow, you got some shadow stuff, I got some shadow stuff. We're in agreement. Let's just come back out here and do these things. And it's like, but the shadow stuff is always what causes the problems. Right. That is the thing. The secrets are the things that take down everybody. Yeah. and I'm interested if y 'all have had this experience in your marriages or your friendships now where I look back on those that house that we lived in we called it the Valley Paces Valley Road in Atlanta and I look back at how we were learning to be friends I was like alright you know the model of friendship is like friendship I think could be something that could be really powerful for our lives but you kind of have to work at it you know you can work to be a better friend You can learn to be a better friend.

1:00:03And some of the things, the ways we did it, I actually wouldn't do it that way anymore. It's just so much trial and error. But the experience was, I think if your heart and your spirit is in the right place, you can do it wrong and it's still right. But if your spirit is in the wrong place, you might be doing all of the right things. And then it just doesn't get escape velocity. It just doesn't go. It just doesn't go. It's not like we had a lot of good intentions. Like we want to grow. And, you know, at that age in your 20s, it's a little more like let's walk in the light. It's a little more fight clubby, you know, in conversations, you know, where I'm like, I don't have a need to do that stuff anymore.

1:00:46But I think our hearts were in a good place. And so it's more about, it's like in marriage, it's more about being on the same page than being right. you know you just said to me that i'm so glad you just said that i think you enunciated probably what what felt like rocket fuel to me from being around y 'all was there was this it was like a two-part thought one we really think we shouldn't have secrets yeah and two we think everybody feels this way so it sort of like takes so much power from it yeah and i think as a is a i mean lord knows at 47 I still feel this way. I'm still struggling with this.

1:01:25But man, in your 20s, where you're really starting to kind of go like, who am I? What kind of pieces of land am I pulling together here? Do I got some stuff? What do I have? Is it good? Am I potent in the world? You're just kind of, there's just all these things I'm shoving under the bed because I'm like, oh, people don't even know that. And I think for y 'all, and still I live by this credo, I want to be well, well acquainted with my sins. And I want my friends to be acquainted with them. I do not want to walk through my life with my little backpack of stuff that nobody knows about. And it's almost become a point of weird pride for me.

1:02:02Like I want to be the guy that people can go, hey, can we have a hard conversation about something? And they go, absolutely. And I assume this is about me. And now I'm not going to enjoy it. I'm not a masochist. But if I learned anything in my 20s, it was that this probably actually ends up good. And you just said that really well. Like whatever the intent, if our intent is to somehow get to truth and be known more, may get a little weird in the middle, but you know, like I want you to know I'm a safe place to have a hard conversation because if I got any reps in my twenties, it was just kind of knowing like sometimes it's my club, sometimes it's beautiful and you cry together.

1:02:41But if our intent is just to be known more and to be free of these secrets and our friendship, like I'm in, I'm on that. I want to do that. and I think that was something y 'all exhibited so beautifully that still, I mean, that is a mantra of my life. I had a buddy this week. We kind of had to have a hard conversation. I could hear him going because it was about me. And I was like, hey, can I start with something? You won't say something that will make me not want to be your friend. I've probably heard somebody say what you're going to say to me. And I'm not saying I'm going to enjoy this, but I really want to be someone that you don't have to be scared that you're going to say something that makes me go, how dare you say that or I didn't know that about me I'm not trying to defend the realm it's so it's such a paradox that the thing we all want the most like we all want to be known that is also the thing we are the most scared of you know

1:03:39Jon McLaughlin:I think the second trait that Dave you described your group McKittrick as having is a little more slippery like to know that um you want to be known but the second thing being that everybody feels this way yeah that to me when you say that i'm like man that that is not how i saw the world in my 20s yeah i don't know if that's how i saw the world in my 30s I believe it as an idea in my 40s, but my default is that I don't know that everybody has this thing, this tiny little 1 % that I don't want to say. But every time, it doesn't make any sense because if you look at the track record, it's every time you tell those secrets, it's met with, at worst, compassion.

1:04:38Jon McLaughlin:and most of the time, Me too. Yeah, me too. I understand. Well, and I think, and you know, I would not have been able to get where I've been, even the little bit of footsteps I've taken to that world. It would take me a thousand years to get good at it. But I'm at least acquainted with it enough, the language of it enough that I can understand and I can kind of get my way around in that city because I'm like, I don't know if I can speak it back to you, but I definitely kind of know what you're saying. I'm at least that familiar with this sort of idea is that I had to see y 'all do it. Yeah. There was no way for me to go, oh, this ideal, this vulnerability, this like, let's keep our secrets out.

1:05:17I needed to see like, so y 'all do that. Okay. And then I would see y 'all do that. And I was like, man, they really are in on this. Well, it's like, you think about the people you're friends with. I mean, we've all helped each other so much at different times as you're kind of rotating around the light side of the moon to the dark side of the moon in friendships. where you can be a reference point where when you had, you were having a big issue with one of your best friends that when you, I remember years ago when we talked about it, in fact, just this week, when I drove, um, I came up a day early because my best friend growing up, Andrew Kintz was in Atlanta on Sunday night for a meeting on Monday and he was driving back to Nashville.

1:05:59I'm like, Oh, I'll just drive with you. You know, I'll just come up on Monday night and hang out yesterday. And so on the drive Monday night, Kent and I have been really good friends since we were 13 years old. And in that car ride on Monday night, we were just having the conversation where he was asking about, I've had a lot of growth over the last 18 months that's been very uncomfortable but great too. He was asking me about it. And we were having the conversation. I was asking him, I'm like, all right, do you know right now the frontier in your life that you know you need to go but you don't want to go.

1:06:38Is there something going on? Do you know what that is or do you just feel it? Because I was like, I really believe people, they may be not going there very much but people know where that is. And he was like, I do. And I was like, what is it? And he started talking to me and he's like, it's this. And I've known this about him for a long time. So I wasn't surprised but I didn't know. I didn't know what he'd say. So then he just starts talking to me about that and he's like, well, what about you? I was like, oh, I know exactly what it is. I'm like, here's what I'm thinking about it. I really think there's a real freedom to unlock.

1:07:12And I think these are the things I need to be doing to move into that space. I'm kind of ready to go into that space. And that conversation for us started in our 20s, where you're first learning of how to be like, I want to be a good friend to you. like how do you know it's a question it's really a question for the lord was like how you know how do we be friends i'm thinking about this with my sisters right now why did you make us why did you give why did you make us siblings you know why did you why did you make us this like what are we supposed to learn out of this in our marriages like what is it that meredith and i what's available to us why did you give us these kids you know just kind of like a curiosity of like Like, I'm not totally sure why you gave us these kids, but man, there seems to be a lot here.

1:08:01So, like, what is it that we could be learning about each other? And you just hold it a little more like, well, like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like, I know. Like, Meredith and I feel like we're doing a good job as parents because we're committed and we're all in. We do love our children. But I feel like we swing and miss on things all the time. It doesn't seem to be having too negative of an impact. And I would have thought, like, oh, man, we swung and missed on that. It hadn't worked out to be that big of a deal. Yeah. So I think the spirit is pretty good. Yeah. Well, you know the thing I think that my takeaway, and I think you and Kent have this,

1:08:38it literally feels like to me you just add 100 new words to your lexicon emotionally. It's like in ways to relate to a friend. And so some of my friendship, appropriately, we have 50 words, and it's great, and that's where it needs to be. We both, that's just where our life is, whatever. But man, I have some friends where we have like 5 ,000. And that's only because through vulnerability and transparency, you just get this whole other thing. You go, oh man, we can laugh about Tommy Boy. We can talk about Arsenal. We can talk about like, hey, I don't think I'm doing a great job as a dad and I feel like I'm failing.

1:09:21or man, I made a terrible decision last night. I just need to tell you because I need to get it out. And all of a sudden, it's weird. Those things all feel the same. None carries more weight than the other because you've just done it enough to go, hey, can we have this kind of conversation? And that person goes, yeah. And you don't have to go kind of like, hey, okay, so let's start the little fire pit and the smoke comes up and I smoke signal. And that's something we probably are wiser with now that I would do differently in my 20s. For sure, for sure. And I feel like in our 20s, I felt like everybody needs to have a conversation.

1:09:53So if we meet, it's like, hey, let's get in there. How are you doing? And then some people are like, I'm just not ready. Yeah, for that. And you're like, well, that's a problem. And now I was just like, if you met somebody and you're like, hey, what's going on? And you get the sense of kind of like, I'm not going there. You're kind of like, all right, cool. Great. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. What prem club do you support? We can talk about a lot of things. It doesn't have to be that. well and you know I was going to say quickly and then one last thing I wanted to kind of bring up before we push you back to Atlanta you know the podcast has heard me say this so many times but you guys were living this but it really applies again it's my favorite quote whenever we come together which I didn't mix up whenever we come together sharing our strengths at Breed's competition but whenever we come together sharing our weaknesses at Breed's community and I think y 'all were just law gravity man it is that's how it works but it was you guys were the first You guys were the billboard sign that flashed for the first time for me with that.

1:10:50It was like, wow, these guys. And I think you mentioned this earlier, John. It was also on display, this idea that, like, man, even the person that starts that conversation, arms crossed, going, nope, nope. You just start seeing, like, as people start dropping, that person's like, hey, can I say something? And you're like, oh, your arms are crossed. And you're leaning on this. I had this thing happen the other day, and I was so embarrassed by it. Or I feel the shame around this piece. And then everybody's like, well, tell us about it. and you're like whoa because it's just man vulnerability in that space in a safe space is just like so powerful so here's the thing you you kate last thing i wanted to circle back and i had a million ways that i thought like how do we because i could you know i just there's so many fun things we could talk about but as we were walking with annie earlier you brought this up and i was like this is a great place this is a great place to land we were you know we went and got coffee and the three of us were just kind of chatting and you said something i thought man that That would be, and this doesn't need to be, hear me saying, I'm not going to ask you this for you to necessarily divulge.

1:11:50But I just think as an ideal, it's a fascinating thought. You said, you know, like the age of imitation for me is over 50. You know, like, and it's time to be myself. What is that? Is that a 50-year-old thing? Is that something where you're kind of like, man, as I think about, which you've referenced through this conversation a couple times, but as I think about the future, you talk about with Kent, it's like, what's the frontier you look at? and you're sort of sitting on the horse. We can either head on back to the ranch or man, I just know it's out there, it's wild, but I just feel this pull toward it.

1:12:23Yeah, what's the adventure? What's the adventure? Where does the adventure go? When you say the imitate, I just loved your thoughts. As you were telling Annie, I was like, man, I love that I get to hear this conversation because you're just so well articulated. Would you just kind of speak to that for a second? And this is a little, I don't know how women work because I'm not one, but I just think for men, they'll probably resonate with this idea that up to our 40s, we're just doing a lot of imitating. Yeah. And now you don't feel that. I'd just love to hear you kind of lay in the plane with that.

1:12:50Yeah, I think about that. When I think about the adventure that I want to be on, a lot of times I think about it, like, what is the adventure Meredith really wanted to be on? Like, when we fell in love and got married, I've had some things of like, I want to go after this. And she's like, okay, if you want to. And then there's things where there's an adventure of like, this is an adventure that really, and she's kind of like, this is the adventure I want to be on. And she's got a great inner compass for things like that. I don't know exactly what the adventure looks like for me. This is part of the discomfort I feel right now.

1:13:26I feel like a high-risk youth a little bit, where I've had an interesting enough life. I think I probably could coast and just tell stories about the last 30 years, and that's not growth. So I don't want to do that. Um, but when I think about my boys, I think it's true for Bailey too. You, you want your boys to grow up to where, you know, people outside of me, outside of Meredith and I, they've got people in, in their world that they're going to, you know, you know, all genius is imitation. That is, I think that is true. You're always taking little pieces from here and there. Um, even things when you're in it, when you figure out the things you don't, you don't want to do.

1:14:10You have somebody you're paying attention to, you're like, ooh, don't do that. So I have felt this change in the last probably five years where a lot of the men in particular that I have really admired and taken notes from are literally just they're dying or they're fading. They're just sunsetting. And so you just realize those relationships – it's not that they're not there. There's still a lot of people that I'm still kind of taking notes from. But that age of imitation to understand myself in the world, I think that chapter, we're kind of in the sunset of that. And we're now, how old are you, John?

1:14:50Jon McLaughlin:43. Yeah. So I think we're all kind of at this place where we were made to be ourselves. But you really have to learn how to be yourself. You have to learn to be yourself. And so I'm feeling this kind of specific prompting of like, I think you're ready to be yourself. You're ready to be yourself. But I have at the exact same time for the last couple years, I have felt more tired than ever of being myself. You know, like, gosh, I feel like I have so much energy. I just wear myself out. And there are these patterns I have like, man, this is the way I roll. This is the way I operate. And I'm finding it a little exhausting.

1:15:31and so I've been trying to like reconcile this thing I'm like I think it's actually time for me to become one of those people and maybe be a generative generous person who's encouraging others but I'm also feeling a little I feel like I'm running out of gas on being myself at least the way I've understood it and there and then the last year and a half there's been a lot of growth in that where I feel like today I have kind of a I'm holding it a little differently um where I'm changing the way I think from I used to be excited about having like 10-year good ideas. And now I'm like, I think I'm living really more one day at a time now.

1:16:10Like actually this moment of sitting in here with you guys is really, this is all I need. This is all, and this is great. This is great. We are here together right now and it's awesome. And so I'm like, gosh, am I getting short-sighted? And it's like, well, what do you think you're going to be about five years from now? I'm like, I'm not really sure, actually. So I think Richard Rohr, I think, Richard Rohr, I think, is the one who wrote about how God made us to be human. Like, being human is not something we need to apologize for. All that goes into being a human, including our foibles and just all the things that we don't do well, we were made to be exactly what we are, and we were made this way to enjoy it.

1:16:58And I think faith sometimes can talk about being human in a way. Yeah, I think that's fair. That's very fair. That's pretty critical of the flesh and being human. But we were made in his image. I just think we have to learn, like why did he want to make us the way? Actually, Barnes, one of Barnes' kids asked the greatest question last night at dinner. We were talking about, he was asking the question about like, how does like dinosaurs and Adam and Eve and all this stuff work? And really good question. And we were talking about in Genesis where it says that God breathed eternity into the hearts of men.

1:17:31I think the Hebrew is netshama is the theological word. But at some point he breathed eternity into us. And so that's who we are. We're three men who do have eternity in our hearts. And so being human, it is actually what we are. and I'm coming into like this new frontier of seeing the world and like literally the world we live in of starting to understand a little more the gift that we've been given. Are y 'all buddies with the Sleeping? What's the Sleeping at Last musician's name? Yeah. Y 'all know him? I don't know him. I think some of his poetry, his words are really, really profound. Yeah.

1:18:16And in one of his songs he talks about how the universe was made, the reason the universe was made was so that we could see it. The universe was made to be seen by our eyes. He's talking about just the miracle that we even exist. So I think when you step into that, it's such a simple thought that is like quantum physics. There's so much in that. And you're like, is it really possible that God made the universe? because he's like, I just want you to see it. You're like, that doesn't even seem believable. But now, more and more, I'm like, I think that might be true. And man, having kids really colors that, doesn't it?

1:18:58Yes. He gave us these kids that we could love them. And see, oh, I would do that for my kid. Why wouldn't God do that for me? Exactly. He may gave us this morning just that we could be friends. And this is the thing that enriches our life. Like this right here. and I wonder another funny thing this is a little deeper than getting a horse into a city in Boston it's all the same I wonder what parts of this world we will recognize in the next what goes with us the things I have high conviction about I think there will be music in the kingdom good for you guys for picking hopefully y 'all I think there's going to be singing in the kingdom.

1:19:47And music is so deeply powerful here. I'm like, I think that's coming with. And you just, like light. Light is something. I think there will be light. And then I hope, I think this is true, but I just want this so bad. I don't know if I'm objective. I hope relationship will come with us. And like, will we know each other? when we sit at the, you know, I mean, the psalm that's a little troubling to me, I'm like, ooh, does it have to be that way? The Lord prepares the table for us in the presence of your enemies. Like, that guy? It's gonna be there? But you will sit there, and in the kingdom, you will be reconciled.

1:20:32Even the things that haunted you in your life, you will learn to be reconciled to sit at the banquet table with your enemy and actually be at peace. Yeah. But I just hope that relationship thing of like, and I don't know what it will look like or what our names, I mean, I don't think my name will be McKittrick. I don't know, three syllables could make it. You never know. Because you imagine you walk around heaven, it's like, oh, tell me your name. You're like, God, even here, man. Your parents nailed it. Yeah, yeah.

1:20:57Jon McLaughlin:No, I mean, as we've been talking, you know, I mentioned earlier, but it's happened, you know, for the listeners who can't see, like it's happened three times, four times in the last hour. The two of you have gotten teared up. And it's always when you are referring to or you're talking about some memory that takes you both back to some, you know, the purest form of friendship that you guys, that we can have on this earth, you know. and Mike Donahue who has been on the podcast he has said before that I it was the first time that I heard this idea he's like God is the Trinity it is a relationship Father, Son, Holy Spirit God is a relationship it's all anything that would make you that would bring you to tears on this earth is relationship and the other one, you bring up music.

1:22:02Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. One thing that I've said surprisingly many times on this podcast is it's a trait in the McLaughlin male gene to have a hard time talking about really beautiful pieces of music without crying. Is that right? Yeah. It's like my grandfather, I have a million memories of him talking about some big band piece. And do you do that? Yeah. My dad does it? Do you ever feel that way about your music? Yes. I mean, which feels weird to say, but most of the time it's other pieces of music. But I've had... There's a song on this new album that I'm so hoping that an album plug would come up naturally. But the last track on this most recent album is this kind of lullaby song that I wrote.

1:22:48Jon McLaughlin:And I couldn't sing it the first 25 times. Is that right? I just couldn't get through it. Yeah. And I didn't even know why I was crying. Yeah. You know. But anyway, all that to say, like, yeah, I think just relationship, it's like why we're here. That's the whole point. Yeah. I think, I've said this too, but I think one of the things that I've realized in my walk with the Lord is how, man, he, and this has really been the last five years. I've seen this in our church a lot, but like, he really wants us to be together. Yeah. Like that is a big, and it's so rare that he says don't, or you see where Jesus peels off, but he always comes back to the disciples.

1:23:32Like, and I think it's really fascinating to think about, I've actually never said this out loud, I've never thought about this, but it's an interesting thing about, imagine that God comes to earth, he didn't need to be with people, but he actually didn't need people. Yeah. Jesus would come to earth and be like, hey, I can do my thing, but I don't want to do, I want to be with my disciples. And then we don't know how many hundreds of other people were with him around in other seasons too, where they're walking around, there's just tons of people. That's such a beautiful thing that Jesus, like you said so well, John, is a part of a trinity.

1:24:04But even his time on earth was not this sort of singular focused, I'm here to conquer and see my thing happen. He's like, no, this diffuses through people because I want my people to be with people. And that as parents, as mothers and fathers, that may be, or it can be, but I think it is one of the most Christ-like things, thoughts, experiences we have. And we've told this to our kids. We haven't told them in a while. I should tell them again. We've told them, do you know why we had you? Do you know why we wanted to have you? and for Meredith and I we wanted to have our children because we felt like we had more than enough love and we wanted to share it you know like we wanted to we wanted to share and so with our kids what I want them one of the things I would want them to know is the reason that we wanted to have you is so we could love you we wanted to love you we're so excited to love you I'm like that's a very that's a very Christ-like reality.

1:25:11Nobody taught me that. I just felt that way. And even for there's probably people who have all kinds of stories that their parents did not have them out of that thought. It's like, okay well maybe it's the Lord made you because he wanted to love you. The reason he made you because he wanted to love you. Maybe the story of how you got here wasn't what you would hope I lived with a friend for a while whose mom was a prostitute, didn't know his father. He had a really hard life story. He had a big drug problem. And it was a big thing was we got to be friends. There was just a part of his identity that was so broken and twisted because he's like, I came here because my mom was a prostitute.

1:25:56I don't even know my dad. And so I just feel like I'm not even supposed to be here, you know? And just like, again, this is like reading the scriptures. You're like, the only thought I know that could connect with that puzzle piece is the idea that we are all here. I think the scripture is not of a husband's will or is there a new, there's a new, it's like, it's not because your parents decided to have kids. You are here because, because the Lord decided he wanted you to be here. That's your identity. That is your identity. It's not that your last name is McLaughlin or Simmons or Barnes. and that's the identity that like our friendships we walk each other towards the mountain but we don't walk each other all the way to the mountain there is a singular part of all of our lives where like there is an aloneness there is an aloneness to our life where we are supposed to be alone and you do need to just reconcile and work out who you are with the Lord and it is only yours to say well it's funny because full circle watch this professional podcast But when you think of standing at your dad's grave and Jesus says he loves you, that is a singular moment that needs to be singular.

1:27:08Yeah, and that was for me. And it so colors what you said and why that is such a profound thing to hear. Is that it's not just that I love you, it's in the context of this. Yeah. I love you. You alone. This is not just your community, this is to you. Yes. It makes it a profound moment. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Well, just to bear witness to each other. Yeah. It's like seeing, so when you see the universe and you're like, dang. You know, just for us to have, just that I've gotten to bear witness. Yeah. To all the iterations of Dave Barnes. Yeah. All the iterations. You know? The bearing witness, that is one of the deepest places we'll go.

1:27:52I was telling Barnes, one of my best friends, Kent and I's other best friend, John Hocutt, we all turned 50 this year. Shout out to John. Johnny Hocutt. Another great nickname. Chach. I started calling him Chach. I forget that's his nickname. I started calling him Chacho. He had a party, a 50th birthday party, and his wife, Jennifer, asked Andrew and I to give a toast for his 50th birthday. And as I was thinking about that, I got very emotional thinking about Chach. Because, I mean, these are just the best. These are like, I mean, you talk about best friends you want. These guys are five stars.

1:28:25They're the best. And as I saw it, gosh, I have seen, I have really borne witness to John's whole life. I've seen it all, you know? And I'm like, I think I've been a good friend to him. I think I have encouraged him. But the gift has been in my bearing witness, the gift has been how my bearing witness to him has changed my life. Yeah. Because I've like learned how to love. Yeah. Love your neighbor. You know, it's like, okay, love your neighbor. That's like supposed to be the biggest idea. It's like, okay, well, who's your neighbor? Like, tell me their first name. Don't give me the thought. Who's your neighbor?

1:28:59John Hookah's my neighbor. How are you doing loving him? It's like, we're still working at it. Who's your neighbor? Meredith Simmons. She's my neighbor. You know? It's like, as soon as you get into, like, on a first name basis, you're in the game. Yeah. Yeah. You know? It may be three syllables, but it's a first name. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a... It's fun to talk about this with you all. because it's like you guys represent kind of like you're, I think you're, you're at this moment, my newest friend. We're two hours in. And Barnes, I don't know how we got to be friends, but we're 20 years in.

1:29:33Look at us, KGP John, we're still here. Well, look, you, thank you.

1:29:37Jon McLaughlin:You have lived up to the hype. Oh, gosh. After 20 years, you're in your name. Oh, all right. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, love you guys. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. Deadville.

1:29:52Yeah.

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