Lee Dixon: "I Won't Even Say Their Name."

10:26Dave Barnes:They were 92nd. And it was like, right. And the manager at the time, it was halfway through the season, he said, don't worry about my position. I'm going to sign a load of players in the summer. You're the start of it. We're going to go and we're going to get promoted next year. So trust me, just get rid of this season. We'll finish bottom. And then there was no relegation then because we were bottom. You couldn't go any further down.

10:52Jon McLaughlin:That's a perk. You don't have to worry about that

10:56Dave Barnes:You're the only team not worried about relegation We finished the season And he signed all these players And we go right This is the magic We're going to get promoted And it didn't really pan out Because we finished 91st Which was We went up one place So that was the start Of my journey To get into

11:22Lee Dixon:to the that is incredible and then to hear those awards i mean that journey is crazy

11:27Dave Barnes:like when do you feel like there's many i don't think there's many team many um players and i haven't looked this one up but somebody mentioned it to me and i went oh i don't know that have finished 92nd

11:44Lee Dixon:so so here's here's something that i think is so funny like i have a few friends that played in the states here and they played college and they they make the joke and you said this earlier that you know like whenever they're playing because you know here you play in your high school you know clubs are starting to happen and now we're seeing some academies really starting to happen with like the mls teams and then you know barca has a place here and all that kind of stuff but you know mostly it's high schools and so they're playing for the local high school and they are like all region all district all state striker right and then you know like a d1 school comes in and goes like hey we want to have you play here and they go dave you just move all the way to the back of the field because you were star striker in your state and then your center like central defender because they say what happens is that that in college uh here in the states there's a huge influx of like south americans and other people so i'm curious you know so then obviously the pecking order like you're not going to beat the brazilian striker that's just now even if you're the you know so what happened with you where you were striker and the defender well i i basically i was um when i was at burnley my first club i was kind of

12:49Dave Barnes:midfield player i was a striker at school and then i kind of went into midfield winger midfield and then i was i was all right but i didn't stand out i was just kind of like that and then we had a second team a reserve team fixture first team were playing away and the reserves were playing at home and I the left back was injured in the warm-up and I was and I was due to play right wing and the manager said can you play left back I literally can only stand on my left foot I can't kick the ball with it it was like I can't tell him that at the time it was I wasn't a good disclosure at the time so I said yeah of course I can play left back I'll do a job for you and I played left back and I played really well and then the following week the right back I flew and he said can you play right back next week and I said yeah of course I'm a bit you know I can do whatever you want me to yeah yeah I went to right back with number two on my back and I never moved from that

13:50Lee Dixon:moment that amazing I mean I just think those moments of someone's life where this chance thing happens and all of a sudden you not only thrive in a team but you have such an incredible career like a legendary career in something that you hadn't done at all until somebody got sick

14:06Dave Barnes:you know whatever it's a sliding doors happens all the time i'm sure you know in life and in that and that's my life you know in other people's lives in an office or in a lawyer's office whatever there's something happens that it goes you just go oh and you know i'm a big believer in you know when opportunities come you have you have to be ready and if you're not and you take life a bit too kind of blasé and you kind of let think let those things pass you i don't i don't always think you get a second chance

14:44Lee Dixon:john dave can i pick a subject that we talk about right now please bedsheets go okay here's the thing

14:50Jon McLaughlin:because i feel so passionately about this okay okay you know what i don't like what tell me bad bed sheets. Hashtag. When the corners won't stay put, the fabric's super thin, you can practically see through it. When they're scratchy, you wake up like in all hours of the night, you're too hot, you're uncomfortable. It's miserable.

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15:27Jon McLaughlin:I'm not switching to Bowling Branch unless you tell me that I'll fall asleep faster, stay comfortable all night, not just some of the night, and actually notice the difference the very moment I get into bed and that they won't wear out.

15:40Lee Dixon:Oh, John, I've got some good news for you because all of the above is happening. They get softer with every watch. Yes. And wash, John. You can sit there. You can just watch them. They're so comfortable. You just fall asleep looking at them. Sleep sound with Bowlin Branch. Get 15 % off, plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at bowlinbranch.com.

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18:24Lee Dixon:so something before we launch into your arsenal career which i have i have a slate of about a six-hour interview so buckle up it's gonna be great this is this is something i've so as listeners are listening who may or may not follow the epl or arsenal which will pray for all of their souls uh because of that but can you just sort of walk us through because i think this is a really important thing to say especially at the beginning here is you know for people who who know about clubs there and go, you know, oh yeah, I know, man, you know, Arsenal, I know, whatever. Can you kind of walk us through why the cult, like why people love their club so much?

18:56Lee Dixon:Cause you know, in America, obviously we're younger. Most of the sports are younger. I know we've got some baseball teams that may compete with English football teams, but as a culture, you know, like the closest thing we probably get is like college football, like American football, where people grow up in that area, they're affixed to it. But you go to England and really across the country, but for our case today, England. And I mean, and I live here and I'm a passionate Arsenal sport. I'm not even from London. I'm not even, you know, yeah. Trust me, you don't want to see the tattoos. But, you know, can you kind of walk us through why the clubs mean so much?

19:29Lee Dixon:Like why football is such a passionate fan base? I think, you know, we've been doing it a long time.

19:36Dave Barnes:We've been supporting our teams for a long time. I think there's definitely a geography thing going on in England. there's so many clubs in such a small country based on how big America is and how stretched out the NFL is. I know you get rivalry in other sports, but certainly in football in England, you can be 200 yards away from Tottenham's five, six miles, whatever it is. but some of the clubs are very close and obviously London's got a lot of teams. So the rivalry between the teams is fever pitch. And also because you're only travelling a small, you get away fans at games. In the big games in the NFL, you're going one side of the country to the other, then it's a bit more difficult to create a rivalry in the state.

20:37Dave Barnes:Yeah, right, right, right. I think mix all that together I think we've it's just in our DNA to be to be say our DNA some people don't like football over here but you know they're not friends of mine

20:55Dave Barnes:but it's it is in our blood and you know now we've got the added advantage which I do believe is an added advantage of the way that the women's game has been enhanced and grown over the last 10 years or so. We've got all the girls going to games and we've got a mixture of families going to games more, you know, the kind of the Saturday afternoon has changed from the blokes just going off for sports and leaving all the girls behind. It's a beautiful thing that we can actually share all this passion together.

21:32Lee Dixon:Yeah, it's really crazy. I think anyone that's been to London knows this, but it's hard as an American to take on. I've been to, I think, three games there in London now. But we tried to go to Fulham because we had a day where me and my buddy were there. And I was like, hey, let's just go to another game. It would be fun. And so being in London, I was like, let's get over there. So we weren't able to get in, which was so frustrating. But I get it.

21:54Dave Barnes:You didn't know me then, did you?

21:56Lee Dixon:I didn't know that either. I was like, listen, I've talked to Lee Dixon. And they're like, well, that doesn't mean anything to us. But what's crazy is, you know, you're walking in this neighborhood, just, you know, like any English neighborhood, and then you turn a corner and there's the stadium. Yeah. And so I think what is fun for an American to understand is it would literally be like your college football team that you grew up, your dad went, your grandfather went, your parents met there, whatever, would literally be two blocks away in your neighborhood. Yeah. You know, it's not a pilgrimage.

22:24Lee Dixon:It's not some we got to get on the, you know, and some people do this, obviously, get on the train and go see their teams. and especially, you know, with Arsenal building the Emirates and Tottenham building their stadium, you know, it's like, you know, it's a little more of a you have to go to them now. But, you know, a lot of these clubs, I mean, they're just sitting in the middle of a neighborhood. And so you have this huge tie to them, you know, because this is like this is physically where you're from, you know.

22:47Dave Barnes:It gets a bit annoying when somebody's parked their car on your driveway because there's like 200 yards away from the stadium. It's like, who's that car? It'll be gone in about three hours. It's okay. it's because my i grew i grew up in manchester so i was a city fan oh wow and so i used to go to main road the old stadium there yeah right in the middle of of kind of moss side and the and the streets were very narrow and my grandma used to have a house just down the road and she used to she used to basically um get all these cones from the police and they used to put them out The police used to give them the cones to put all out.

23:27Dave Barnes:So all the friends of the family used to park their cars outside. And then as payment, all the police used to come in and have bacon sandwiches and cup to tea. Went to the family's house and there was police everywhere. What a crazy state. Private car park outside the house.

23:47Lee Dixon:But it just shows, again, it's just like so much of that experience, I think, is imbued into the English culture. You know, it's like that is such a normal thing. And you feel it, again, in some college towns in America. But to think that, like you said, however many clubs are in London at any point, you know, with relegation or not in the EPL, it's like, what, nine to ten is every year, something like that.

24:07Jon McLaughlin:So it would basically be like taking ten NFL teams and putting them in New York City.

24:12Lee Dixon:That's perfectly said, John. Yeah, and so every neighborhood, so you'd have like the Bronx Bombers and then like, you know, the Lower East Side, whatever. That's exactly right. That's a beautiful, that's a really good analogy, John. Yeah. So, okay. So first of many nerdy questions, Lee, and then I'm going to try to intersperse these with things that maybe non-Arsenal fans would care about. But I'm going to be honest with you, I don't care. One of the things that I'm really curious about, and maybe the way I can relate this to people listening is like imagine this happening in your job. But you're playing at Arsenal.

24:44Lee Dixon:George Graham is there. And then Wenger comes in, right? And I think for people who don't know this, two different managers. You have an English manager who's kind of defense heavy, and it's a different kind of playing. In comes this French guy, and he'd been at a Japanese club right before? Yeah. So not very well known. and and but but what i think is so one it's just interesting to have a new manager period right just someone that brings in a different culture whatever but you know he's so known for having brought in like drastic changes to the way that you think about it what was that like because wasn't it food i mean the way that y 'all trained it was like kind of a wholesale change wasn't it in the way that y 'all approached uh practicing in the game and everything um yeah i mean he he

25:33Dave Barnes:nobody knew him, we just knew he had this amazing name that seemed to fit Arsenal football club that's a bit weird, he's nearly called Arsenal we used to call him nearly Arsenal when he first came up and this guy turns up on the first day basically looking like your geography teacher he had little spectacles he had patches on his jacket not particularly athletic type he was quite skinny and tall but he wasn't he didn't look like a football manager so we kind of went and you know I'm sure it's the same in the States the sense of humour, the locker room you know, banter and all that stuff this bloke turns up and we all looked at each other and we went give me one of them who's this guy?

26:28Dave Barnes:and from literally the first time he opened his mouth to go you know to start speaking it was kind of wow he's this guy's different i don't put your finger on it to begin with it was just the way he spoke he's very quietly spoken um but very kind of meticulous in in his words and how he phrased them and this is what we're going to do and we were all going right okay and then from day one he changed the diet the stretching the we used to we used to basically i mean under jord's blessing we were we were quite um quite a rowdy bunch to deal with and he he ruled by um basically a carrot and a stick you know it was like this is what i'm going to give you and this is what you're going to get if you don't you know if you don't get it at all so play like this do this do that you get whacked by a stick not literally obviously yeah um although sometimes maybe i was gonna say maybe sometimes um so it was completely different he was he was more um uh cerebral he was like wants to talk to you wants to understand what you're thinking um not and and one thing that surprises people when i tell them about wenger is that i was with him for i was 32 when he came

27:52Lee Dixon:Oh, wow.

27:53Dave Barnes:So I was thinking, God, I could be getting hoisted out here. This could be, you know, one year and out. So I've got to really listen to him and take on board everything he says. And our back four at the time was basically 30 upwards to 30. Oh, wow. So all four of us and the goalkeeper, David Seaman, were all past the age where Wenger was going. because I spoke to him after a few years, and he said, to be honest with you, I was going to give you an opportunity, but in the back of my mind, I needed to get a whole back four. And we ended up playing for him for six years. I was 38 when I retired.

28:37Lee Dixon:That's so, by the way, that is old. That's remarkable that you played that long. You know what I mean? Because usually it's like 33, 34, 35. Yeah, what's the average?

28:46Jon McLaughlin:Retirement is like 33.

28:47Dave Barnes:is the average retirement age yeah i mean yeah i mean the average play it's like the nfl you know when you find out what the average playing career is it's about that big isn't it yeah right i've been watching him play for ages he said yeah there's another 80 of them who've retired yeah yeah um so yeah it was so we did we did six years and and wenger said to me i was i was surprised how good a footballer you were because I just I knew you as a as a unit the four I knew how good you were as a defense but I didn't realize that you would be able to take on the freedom that I was going to give you to play that you had that ability to play and I was like yeah that's a good point because you know my strength was my brain my my athleticism my energy my desire to win my understanding of tactics all of that but i wasn't the most gifted skillful technical player i was you know as a full bat i just used to kick people and then pick them up you know that was kind of that was what i did but i picked him up with a smile and then off you go

29:59Jon McLaughlin:do you do you see that as being like uh like he was the beginning of sort of like what now is the standard as like diet is everything yeah if you if you speak to

30:13Dave Barnes:the man united to gary nevels and the players that were at united our biggest rival at the time they kind of after when we won the double in 98 they always like what they'd go to england games and they'd all talk to the arsenal players going what are you what are you wow what's happening with you know you you look at different bunch of players wow it was the you know the nutrition the stretching his first few kind of months he started to test his venga because we go to a hotel for a game on a saturday we'd be we'd be in a hotel which we would be under under uh george as well towards the end it started to become a thing you would take you out your home put you in a hotel the night before but we'd go into the hotel and then the next morning first thing in the morning we'd get a call at sort of 8 30 right down in the room for a stretch and we were like we're not playing till three o 'clock what why are we stretching at nine o 'clock in the morning and you go yeah you need to do so we go down for stretching and then we go back to our rooms we'd come down to eat, then we'd go to the ground, we'd stretch at the ground.

31:23Dave Barnes:We'd do about three or four stretching sessions before we even got out on the pitch. Wow. And it was too much. We were like, this is too much. So Tony Adams was our leader. And he was like, right, Tony, push him in. You can't sort that out. We're not doing all this stretching. It's ridiculous. So Wenger was clever because he basically, what he did was, no, we have to do this. you know this is how we do it and then we complained again and then he dropped the 8 30 saturday morning stretch so he gave us something back so we were like oh yeah we're in control come on and really when you speak to him again he's like i was always gonna drop that one anyway it's just imagine how long how long would you do it before we you know we complained for context like

32:14Lee Dixon:how much stretching were you doing before that like what was a normal like warm-up for y 'all

32:18Dave Barnes:before that um we would on match day we'd go for we'd probably go for a little walk um about 11 o 'clock and then we'd go for pre-match meal which would be 11 30 and then you go to the stadium an hour and a half you get to the stadium an hour and a half before you wouldn't be you wouldn't you'd be in the dressing room then reading the program sorting your tickets out for your family, and you kind of start to think about loosening up about an hour before. Wow, that's it. Then pretty much your own whatever you want to do. The only time you do something that the coach wanted you to do was 15 minutes before kickoff.

33:02Dave Barnes:Jeez, that's crazy. It was quite loose.

33:06Lee Dixon:I've never understood. Is the walkabout, because I'll see Arsenal post about the guys doing their little kind of walk out of the hotel Is that just a tradition? Is there any point for that?

33:17Dave Barnes:It's a change of venue. You're not in your room. You're not in a meeting room. You're out in the fresh... I'll never forget, you know, when we won the league at Old Trafford in 2002? We won the league and we played them on a Tuesday night. and the last game of the season was the cup final to come and the end of the season and if we went to Old Trafford and won we would win the league that night so we'd go to the hotel and then about 12 o 'clock he goes we're going to go for a walk and I'm from Manchester and he goes we're going to go for a walk and I went I said boss I'm not sure that's a great idea you know and he goes why we we i said we're just about to go to old trafford and if we beat them you know half of manchester right now is on edge and you'll take us for a walk around the lowry hotel over the canals and around this little street i know he goes i'll be fine don't worry so i went okay i've told you anyway we met a a window cleaner guy who was cleaning the window and he saw we're all in tracksuits and we were walking down the street and he was like cleaning this window and I clocked him for a while and he looked like that and he went and he put his thing threw his thing in the bucket and he's obviously a United fan I said it's 50-50, it could be a C but I can tell by his face and the bengar's like right in the front and he's walking along like proud as punch, big cannon on his chest waving around and I've just gone and I've gone to the lads, watch this and this lad kind of squared up to him in the middle of this broad Manchester accident and he got his swears at him he goes what the effing hell are you doing in Manchester and he's like that and I'm done and I don't know what to do absolutely froze he was I thought he was going to immediately start

35:25Jon McLaughlin:stretching or something like that he's like you give me an hour and a half bro and I will take

35:30Dave Barnes:you dad oh it was just oh brilliant but he was like how how long are those walking is it like a little 30 minute just kind of walk about like 15 20 minutes that's always been so fascinating and they tend to stay around the hotel now because of after his excursion into deepest moss side he was like okay let's get that as that guy's throwing his window juice at you

35:57Lee Dixon:So here's another thing I want to ask. While you're playing, and this is always something I love to ask athletes, it's nothing like it is now with social media, but how did you deal with the criticism, the window cleaners, so to speak, of the rest of your life, these guys and women or whoever, kids that are writing about your game? How did you handle that?

36:19Dave Barnes:Don't read it. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, you switch the TV on, or you pick a newspaper up when I was playing, and phones were just kind of coming in and i retired 2002 so you could you walk past the newsstand and you'd see you know you see george george graham bless him always used to say i don't mind you being on the back of the paper just stay off the front right that's so good that's so good and we failed on several occasions you know yeah yeah so you could you if you had a good game you read it if you didn't have a good game you don't read it um it's it's but now i mean it would drive me crazy if i was playing now i could i don't think i could i mean i would have a i'd have a different attitude because i would have grown up with social media but if you took the old me and put me in now i mean i just don't know how they or why they they integrate with or you know have these back and forwards with fans on social media.

37:23Dave Barnes:It's like, no, stop. Because I obviously, I came off Twitter because I was commentating and I fortunately got the top job commentating for England. So here, you are on a pedestal and you're just like that, just queuing up to like, knock you out the bubble park. It's like, what's he said? Did he get a word wrong then? it's like yeah yeah i did i made a mistake i'm sorry they're like oh you get off yeah yeah that

37:56Lee Dixon:is so and and with your kids like how how old were your kids when you retired um how when i retired that's a good question i was 2002 so olivia was i can't work it out but she was 12 okay and my son was 14 when i retired so okay so they that is a sweet so how did they deal with that like did Would they go to school and have to deal with people that were kind of – I mean, y 'all were – thankfully, Arsenal was doing great. So, I mean, they –

38:25Dave Barnes:Yeah. No, yeah, but the thing is they're doing great, but they're not – unlike me and you. Yeah. They're not everybody's – as John will contest, they're not everybody's favorite. Look at his face.

38:41Jon McLaughlin:Look at my shirt and the lack of Arsenal. He just caught a lot of us. Yeah, so I mean, they used to get stuff said to them at school and stuff, but they grew up with it.

38:54Dave Barnes:So I tried to be as... I'm quite a private person outside of football. We had a team bonding night out every now and again, but my friends were outside of football mostly. yeah david seaman's my big mate um he's my best mate always has been and so we and tony adams and and ian right are kind of like the four and their wives yeah out still yeah hanging out and um but

39:25Lee Dixon:when i was playing i kind of even now even now you all spend time together yeah yeah yeah all the

39:30Dave Barnes:girls are friends and uh and the kids have grown up sort of knowing each other they've all gone off to do their own thing and and it's yeah it's not it's nice to for them to have flown the nest but we yeah every christmas we try to to go to one place and you know to try and get the kids to come back it never happens when we all get together but the the the four girls and four lads make it with whatever kids we can drag with us you know that and so did they did i'm so curious

40:01Lee Dixon:What was it like, you know, would they come, they'd come to the games and kind of be around. And that just must have been the water that they swam in as kids.

40:10Dave Barnes:It's just, you know, the thing, the thing is you get spoiled with it. They never forget my son goes, I said to him, do you want to go to the game? I can't remember what game it was, but he was about probably 12 or something. And I said, do you want to go to the game on Saturday, you know, go in a box or get some tickets? and he looked at me and he went, is it a cup final?

40:34Lee Dixon:Oh my God.

40:36Dave Barnes:I went, no, it's just a league game. And he went, no, I'll give it a miss.

40:42Dave Barnes:I've reduced him to only going to cup final.

40:45Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, he's like, let me know when you're going to win something. Hey, you know you're doing well in your career when your son's like, maybe I'll come in.

40:54Dave Barnes:Yeah, but he played until he was about 10 for his local, you know, football team. And then he came to me. It was a Sunday morning, I'll never forget it. He was playing at one o 'clock and he had his kit on ready to go. And he said, Dad, I need to speak to you. And I said, what's the matter? And he goes, I don't want to play today. And I said, oh, right. What are you injured or what's going on? He said, no, I just don't enjoy it anymore. And I said, and he goes, to be honest with you, I've never really enjoyed it. I only play because you want me to. and I said, okay. And I was like, as the dad who wants the best for your son, but also secretly want him to go and be a footballer because of the life I had.

41:42Dave Barnes:And I was like, okay. And I said, why? And he said, everyone looks at me. The manager made him play number two fullback and he didn't like it and he had a number two and he had blonde there. We both had kind of, we looked alike. And he said, everyone just goes, oh, there's Lee Dixon's son and he's not very good and da-da-da. He wasn't particularly great at football. So I said to him, all right, I said, you've got to do one thing. You've got to play today because it's the day of the game. And then after the game, you speak to your manager and you explain it to him. And then you give yourself a period of time to speak to him about if you're missing it then you can change your mind yeah and if you don't that's fine but you you i i insisted on him trying out other sports and trying to be to to be athletic and mobile and just to keep exercising so he said yeah he started playing rugby at school and he started doing other things and the irony of it was that so he didn't play from 10 onwards and he went to university at 18 and he started playing for his university team and one day we went he was 18 turned 18 and i took him to the pub for it because that's english tradition you take your 18 year old son to the pub for his first pint you know he's probably had about a thousand before

43:08Jon McLaughlin:yeah this tastes pretty good pretend how to do it

43:14Dave Barnes:I said right I'll have our first pint and on that night he said to me do you know what dad I've got I'd hate to tell you something else and I was like oh my god what's this and he said I wish you'd have made me play I wish you'd have forced me to play because he was right on the edge and I just I didn't want to be the pushy dad so I said as long as you play sport and he goes I would have loved you to push me because I think I probably would have carried on paying. Literally, I was sitting in the pub. I was like, oh. He was like, oh.

43:46Lee Dixon:He's like, geez, dad, you're drinking that beer fast. You're like. Another round for us, please.

43:51Dave Barnes:Yeah. But my daughter, if my daughter was a kid now, she would have had a chance because she was brilliant. But there was no girls football back then.

44:04Lee Dixon:You had to play with the boys.

44:06Dave Barnes:and there just wasn't the facilities or the access. But she was really good. She was hard as nails. She used to kick lumps out of everyone. She was skillful. She was fast. And she plays netball now. She's 35 now. She plays netball. She's like a demon. You know, she's an absolute lunatic.

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46:33Jon McLaughlin:Entredigt? Safe. Mit Visor Steuer.

46:37Lee Dixon:That's got to be such a struggle. I can't imagine being, and I mean, you know, with John and I being musicians, you know, you juggle that thing where you're like, gosh, it'd be, man, it'd be fun if they wanted to. But I think like you, Lee, it's like the last thing, I would be terrified that they would get to 18 and say the opposite. They're like, listen, I'm tired of doing this. Like, I don't ever want to see another guitar, piano, soccer ball in my life. you know so so i think as hard as you never know like maybe you never know if you push you squash

47:08Jon McLaughlin:it maybe if you back off they come back to you just you just never know but the thing is with

47:13Dave Barnes:when i my dad my dad played for um man city he was a pro for three years in the 50s he was a goalkeeper he played under the great goalkeeper who's quite famous in england for um called burt Trautmann played for City he broke his neck in the cup final the FA Cup final he actually broke his neck and carried on playing it was an incredible you look him up Bert Trautmann he was a German uh he was a German prisoner of war in England and after the war he stayed and then he turned into a pro footballer and he played for Man City and my dad was his understudy he this guy this guy was my dad's hero and I only had a joke with my dad and my dad never played it in the first team because Bert was so good and also he never got injured and then one day

48:04Lee Dixon:other than breaking his neck

48:05Dave Barnes:and I said to my dad, do you know what, it's just come to me I said, you must have been really footballer and he went why is that? I said Bert Trotman broke his neck and he still didn't get a game

48:23Dave Barnes:That is unbelievable.

48:25Jon McLaughlin:If he breaks one more bone, I'll take it out.

48:28Dave Barnes:So he bent his thumb back in a League Cup game or something. And my dad got picked to play on the Wednesday in the replay. And he said, this is it. This is my chance. And so he got on the coach and he was playing Luton Town away in the Cup. And they drove down to London. and he was on the coach going down. It's so excited. And the fog came down and the game was canceled. Oh, my gosh. And he was like, no, we're turning around, we're going back. And he was going, no, but, no, but. And then Bert's thumb was all right at the weekend and that was it. Oh, my gosh.

49:07Jon McLaughlin:So, so. Bert's like the foot is actually healing my thumb.

49:11Lee Dixon:It's weird. And my neck feels great. It's never been more flexible. how did you know when it was time to retire like what did that look like

49:24Dave Barnes:wow that's um i just had a wow i just had a big rush of emotion right then um yeah that that was uh i'd already planned it i was my last season uh in 2002 i was 38 Tony Adams was retiring the same season Oh wow His back was bad, his knee was bad I was hanging on, Lauren had taken over my place So I only played Like a third of the games in that last season My contract was up And I'd made the decision At the start of the season I'm not going to get a new contract I'm 38 Let's knock it on the head And obviously we won the double that year So it was an amazing way to go but I never forget I didn't I knew I couldn't play any longer my knee was absolutely wrecked and I couldn't really train because the adrenaline is not there in training as soon as the game goes on a Saturday I didn't feel my leg at all my knee at all but during the week on a Monday in February it's like you're trying to go out get yourself going again I was like me and Tony used to run out with the lads to go training on a Monday morning and we purposely sort of hang behind them and then they'd be running out for the warm-up and Wenger used to stand there and he used to look and he used to go, Tony, Lee, go back in and go in the swimming pool.

50:52Dave Barnes:And we used to go. And all the lads used to do the, you know, horrible signals to us and we'd just wave at them like, who's there for lunch? But the actual, the final day of the season was against Everton and it was a home game. Tony was injured, so he didn't play. So his last game had been before. So it was my last ever football match. Wow. And I was... But I'd never... I'd not had the conversation with Wenger. I hadn't had the... Oh, wow. Face-to-face. We all knew I was retiring. But I hadn't actually had that conversation. So I thought... It was a Friday morning. We were playing on the Saturday.

51:35Dave Barnes:So I knocked on his door and I went, Boss, can I see you, please? and he goes, yes, I need to speak to you anyway. So I said, all right. So I go in the thing and I said, what do you need to speak to me for? He goes, I'd like to make you captain because I was kind of vice captain. Tony's not fit. Can you be captain for the last game? And I was like, wow, that's amazing. Thank you. That I'd be very honoured. Yeah, brilliant. 619, full stop. But I thought I'd just ask the question. So I said, he goes, what do you need to speak to me about? And I said, well, do you think I'd have any value if I stayed for another year?

52:14Dave Barnes:Wow, what a question. Could I add value to the dressing room? You know, I wouldn't play unless you needed me. But ultimately, which is what I was doing anyway, but I said, I just, I just, and he just went like this. He put his hand up and he went, and he sat back in his chair. and I was like, I was waiting. I was like, and he looked at me, bless him, and he just went, looked at me right in the eyes and he goes, Lee, it is time.

52:51Lee Dixon:Wow.

52:52Dave Barnes:Wow. It was like a, and I just went, yeah, fair enough. Yeah, I'll see you tomorrow.

52:59Jon McLaughlin:In that moment when he's about to say whatever he's about to say, Do you remember, like, I don't know if I'm putting myself in your shoes as much as ridiculous as that is for me to put myself in your shoes in that moment. Like, I don't know if you're hoping he says it's time or no, please stay on for one more year. I would imagine it would be so hard for you to make the decision. You know what I mean?

53:25Dave Barnes:I knew what I wanted him to say. And I wanted him to say. Wow.

53:30Lee Dixon:Wow. I wanted him to say, okay, stay one more year, because I was terrified.

53:36Dave Barnes:We played – the last game of the season was on Sunday. I was terrified because this was Saturday morning. I was playing on the Sunday, and then Monday morning, I'm not a footballer anymore. I was desperately scared of that Monday morning. I was like, what the flipping heck am I going to do Monday? I was doing some TV work. It wasn't about what am I going to do.

54:00Lee Dixon:it was like, what can I do?

54:04Dave Barnes:Where do I put all this? All of this stuff here that I know. I was a pro for 22 years. I'm not a pro on Monday and it's Saturday. I'm terrified.

54:17Jon McLaughlin:How great would it have been if you ran into that lawyer on the street that you would run into right when you signed that first contract and he's like, hey, I'm a lawyer still.

54:29Lee Dixon:i'm a lawyer still what are you doing

54:34Dave Barnes:yeah i mean listening to that story because i thought you'd like you'd off about 20 minutes ago hey i'm hanging on every word lee

54:41Lee Dixon:hanging on every word lee i have such i have so much empathy for that i just when i think of professional athletes because i think it's so easy that we think of you guys as you know these like superstars and they're legends and they have these especially your career, which is just so amazing. But there's this unbelievable reality that's happening, which is you have identified in the world as this thing. I mean, yes, you're a son, you're a father, you're a husband, but the world knows you as this really successful footballer, and you said it so articulately. And this is what I think about so much is Sunday you are, and then Monday you are not.

55:19Lee Dixon:And I just can't imagine, and I think a lot of people are listening, I think that's something to really, it's a poignant thought is like, what would it be like to do that? And not only are you not that, but you're getting people, 38 ,000 people in Harvard. And it's such a source of joy and identity. And then it's gone on the next day. And so what did that season after that look like for you? How long was it for you to land a plane on like, okay, I'm sort of adjusting. I'm able to navigate it. i'm still trying yeah touché in all honesty wow you know i still i i still have moments now where

56:00Dave Barnes:i go whoa god you know to be fair not not as many as i used to but there's times when i go to a game especially when i'm pitch side if i'm doing if i'm doing pitch side interview or and i see the players on the pitch scares the life out of me because they're so quick they're so strong they're so big yeah yeah and all of that but but the the real feeling under the feeling is just five minutes just let me run on and run off just anything yes yes desperate to yes a bit back you know and yeah unfortunately because i get as close um as you can really to you know what i do now is i love what I do now.

56:48Dave Barnes:I'm obsessed with the process of going to games and also because I do it in England obviously with England but I've got I like to think I've got a really amazing relationship with American fans.

57:07Lee Dixon:Absolutely.

57:08Dave Barnes:I feel I've got I'm honoured to be able to pass something because the English fans they kind of know stuff. I'm not saying the American fans... Yeah, no, you're right, you're right. I'm not dumbing them as down. What I'm saying is the nuances of the game that you can't possibly know unless you've grown up with it. It's like I love American football. I love the NFL. I watch the NFL. I know the rules, not all of them, but I know the rules of the NFL. But I don't know the nuances of it. You're watching a game and whether you like it or not, you know stuff because it seeps into your being for all of your life, even when you're not talking about it.

57:51Dave Barnes:People are talking about it. So I feel as if I've got this relationship with the American soccer fans and I'm honoured to be able to share some of the stuff that went on for me and try and say it in a way that is not condescending, but it enables an understanding of what I was feeling at the time and what I'm feeling when I watch a game now. So I couldn't love that more than I do. I've got the second best job, but it's the second best job. Yeah, gosh, that's so well said. Is that? That's so well said. Yeah.

58:30Lee Dixon:Well, you know, too, Lee, I think what's so interesting about sports that I think is pretty unique to sports is that, you know, pretty much any other vocation you have as a man or a woman, you know, You can retire, but you can still kind of do it. You know what I mean? So many other big – you just decided, I don't want to do this anymore. Can I still be an architect? Yes. Can John and I still play our instruments? Yeah, and we'll probably hopefully be able to do that until we die. But sports are so humbling because at the level of pro sports, that kind of conditioning, and then just physically what your body can do, it's a limited amount of time that your body can do that.

59:07Lee Dixon:It is. Like you said, your knees hurt, your Achilles, whatever happens. And so I just can't, I just have such a heart for what you guys do because I'm like, that has just got to be such an interesting thing to navigate is knowing, I mean, and maybe there's peace in knowing I just can't do it. Thankfully, it's this thing in the conversation, you know, where some, you know.

59:25Dave Barnes:I don't, I don't play at all now. I mean, I had two knee, I had two knee replacements in the last three years. And so my passion, my passion has always been football and very closely behind that. it's golf i'm like i'm addicted to golf and so when when the pain in my knees got so bad i couldn't walk around the golf course that was it all right get me in two new knees and i i've been reborn again because now i can play 36 holes a day carry my bag walk do it wow they've got zero zero interest in kicking a football kicking a football again you still have a knockabout and was like why why would i do that because nothing i don't care what pass i hit or what position pitch i ever get on i'll never ever be able to get anywhere near what i used to it's just disappointment yeah young kids driven the ball doing stuff i couldn't do when i was playing i was like yeah yeah they go yeah you you can't do this and i'm like no i can't but you know what

1:00:34Lee Dixon:What is the – this should be the speed round, which we're about to jump into. But what is your favorite – like when you speak of that, because I think this is so fascinating. When you were on the pitch, what was the most satisfying thing you did? Was it a great ball in? Was it a defensive move? Was it a header out of the – was it like scoring? What was the thing that you were like, oh, that just – every bit of me.

1:00:57Dave Barnes:I'll tell you a quick story about – that encapsulates me as a player. so when I signed for Arsenal I said to him I didn't want to go because I was petrified of I was in the second division at Stoke and I was like that's kind of, I'm done I didn't think I could play up there Arsenal come in and go come and play for us and I said to my dad, signed and I said to my dad what am I going to do now because I'm going to get found out I literally am going to get found out I didn't have that yeah I'm going to show everybody because I'm this and I'm that I was honestly thought I was going to get found out so my dad said to me bless him he died two years ago but he said some things to me over my lifetime that I never forgot he said to me just do just get one game under your belt and then you're an Arsenal player wow I didn't make my debut until about six weeks after I signed because they were in a cup competition and I was really for the next season and I played one game and I was like, oh, I'm an Arsenal player now.

1:02:03Dave Barnes:And I said, the only thing is, Dad, I'm still going to get found out. What do I do now? He goes, 10. And I played 10 that season and I go, so he kept setting me goals and I was like, all right. Wow. And I was from number one and this is a God's honest truth, you probably don't believe me, but from one until 619, I was waiting for this to go wow you've got to come off now because you've had a bit of a run so that was my drive was to go I'm going to get 20 I'm going to get 30 I'm going to get I've set my goals and then on the last day that I played with Tony Adams it was the day before the game I talked to you about at the end of the season the ball went over the top and Tony was a bit out of position and I kind of looked and it ties in with your question and I looked at him and I thought he's struggling here so I just went on the run to sweep up behind him to cover him which is what my job is I was like went off took the ball in space rolled it back to the goalkeeper ran back to my position and on the way back Tony had recognised I'd got him out and he goes and he looked at me and he goes do you know what he said you're one hell of a full back do you know that oh man And it literally, I started crying on the pitch.

1:03:31Dave Barnes:And that was game 618. And I looked at him and I went, you could have said that 20 years ago. I've been thinking I'm going to get a tap on the shoulder and you think I'm half beaten.

1:03:45Jon McLaughlin:That's unbelievable. What a moment. Obviously, that probably made you sharp. It kept you sharp, you know, kept you from relaxing. Do you feel like it kept you from enjoying it? as much as you maybe could have? No. I don't even know if that's possible.

1:04:03Dave Barnes:No, I think this is my understanding of playing elite sport is when people go, oh, you must have enjoyed that, and you go, this is me. I'm not speaking for anyone else. You do not enjoy the 90 minutes. The 90 minutes is not enjoyable. unless you're winning 5-0 at half time.

1:04:28Lee Dixon:Yeah, yeah.

1:04:29Dave Barnes:You've got to, you know, you just, unless, but most of the time, even when you're two up and you go to three, they get one. You kind of, and being obviously a defender, it's your responsibility to close the game out that end. So you are always on the edge of disaster, as in, you know, one little slip, goal. So you kind of, you don't enjoy the, You love the final whistle and then the enjoyment starts and you enjoy training. Wow. But when you're two days away, if you're playing weekend, Wednesday, weekend, so you play on a Saturday, you have Sunday off or coming for a stretch and you've got a game on a Wednesday, you are recovering physically, also mentally.

1:05:17Dave Barnes:And then half a day later, you've turned into prep mode for the game on the Wednesday. so you've forgotten them that's gone you're literally going whatever so you live in these little four-day windows of life and then you and this is ties in with your podcast name you have got in those four days you've got you two kids a wife and a mortgage and a dog to fit into that as well and you've got to live life as well you know do that you're carrying a bit of a knock you're not sleeping great because you've had a bang on your head or whatever it is so you you the and and it goes so quickly because you you live in every four days it's like a it's almost like a week and you're just going like that and that before you know it you've done 10 years and you're like yeah well the kids have grown when how did that happen you know the kids have grown up you miss you know now i i i'm lucky enough to have a really i had my kids quite young so i've got a beautiful relationship you know one's 35 who's had a an amazing um little boy called george

1:06:24Lee Dixon:named after george graham oh that's so great george graham charlie george and george armstrong

1:06:30Dave Barnes:so she's a bigger arson fan than all of us so she called him george he's three and he is my life he is literally so i cannot love this person anymore and he's he's everything that they talk about grandkids and i was you you hear the thing people say oh yeah you get all the good stuff and and you do but i and i try to handle i was thinking what does that mean get good stuff but you and i and it came to me one morning when i handed him back to his mum and i go yeah this is what they say i've had all the good stuff here i'm gonna go and play golf now he's crying but it's not it's the you have all the good bits and some of the bad bits but it's this weight on your shoulders yeah that's been removed because you it's not your responsibility so you get a kid with no responsibility it's amazing it's absolutely amazing that's so great because all all all i was thinking about with my kids when they were growing up was could i think about them enough and also think about Ryan Giggs and how he cooks.

1:07:38Dave Barnes:I'm mixing them up with players. I'm going, I really need to rest now. I know you want to go to the park, but I've got Giggs on Saturday and he's, you know, I'll see you later. I miss chunks of growing up that I don't remember some of the stuff. Do you remember when we went there? And I go, you know, so that's the price.

1:08:01Lee Dixon:But the tribute to you doing such a good job is that you have – I mean, John and I talk about this so much, but all we want – that's not true. One of the biggest things we want is that we just are always in relationship with our kids, no matter the ages. And I think it's such a tribute to parents who have great relationships with their adult kids because I just think that really shows that you've done something right. And so I think that's such a tribute for you to be able to say that. you know?

1:08:27Dave Barnes:Yeah, my son hit the nail on the head with it all not that long ago, he goes very philosophically kind of looking up and he goes, you know what? You're one lucky person, you know that, don't you? I said, why? And I'm thinking he was going to say, you know, you were a pro footballer and you did all, won all this stuff. And I said, why do you say that? He goes, I've never been arrested. He said, I've never got done for drink driving. I never got done for this. Never got done. I said, you're so lucky. And I was like, and I looked at him and I went, maybe it wasn't luck. I don't know. I don't know.

1:09:06Dave Barnes:I'm just throwing it out. He hasn't got.

1:09:10Lee Dixon:You're like, I was such a good parent. Okay, Lee, you have been a legend. So we have our speed round here. And I'm just warning you, it is Arsenal packed. So buckle up. I'll start us. What is your favorite Arsenal memory?

1:09:24Dave Barnes:Anfield 89. Oh, my gosh. Winning the league, last minute, last kick of the game. Unbelievable. It doesn't get any better than that.

1:09:33Lee Dixon:What year were you born? So I was 78. Right, 82. But I didn't start. So my first Arsenal game that I went to, which is what started my fandom, was in 2009. And so I was late because we went over to London with friends. And I liked soccer. So I was like, I want to go see a game. And it could have been y 'all or Chelsea, which is hysterical to think of now, because the guy that I knew had tickets to either. and I was like, let's go to Arsenal because I remember Arshavin from the World Cup and I was like, oh, he plays for Arsenal so I missed, I know now because I've gone back and sort of done the work but I started my fandom later so here's, I have to say this and this is, so you'll just a quick side step, one of my dear friends he's from London a guy named John Green, a dear friend of mine, songwriter legendary songwriter, incredible talent but he's a huge Arsenal fan, grew up his granddad had tickets, his dad has tickets rest in peace his dad has gone now but I texted John I was like listen I'm gonna get to talk to Lee and it's so funny that you brought that up about that memory because I said do you have any questions you want to ask him he said it's not so much a question but I am curious he said that game to me is one of the most important games because he talks about I think he either couldn't get in or he got in at the last minute but he was like I was around it to see it right he said I just wonder how Lee feels about that being right before the beginning of the Premier league.

1:10:53Lee Dixon:Right. So, and he said, I just wonder sometimes if, cause he said for me, that was such a turning point for our club. Like that moment we go there, we, we went in Anfield, it's the last kick of the ball. It's this huge moment. He's like, I think when you think of Aguero and kind of the first premier league moment where he wins and yeah, I know, but he's like, I think that moment gets more sort of, it's more of a myth mythological moment than what we did at Anfield because the Premier League started whatever that was two years later. And he's like, I just wonder if Lee feels that too, that some of that memory, which was such an incredible memory, sort of gotten lost in the thing because of the Premier League starting.

1:11:31Dave Barnes:Yeah, 100%. I mean, I have arguments. I was born a City fan, but I am now an Arsenal fan. But I have arguments with my City friends and family all the time. And they go, oh, Guero. And I go, don't even, please, don't even. Don't go anywhere near that. Because if you do your history, do your research, you will understand the difference between playing one of the world's greatest teams in Liverpool who are knocking people over for the whole of the 80s and 90s. And you were playing QPR who were just relegated. Yeah.

1:12:10Lee Dixon:I love that you said that because that's what he said. Yeah.

1:12:12Dave Barnes:So, yeah, there's no comparison. Well, that's my favourite Arsenal. Oh, that's amazing.

1:12:18Lee Dixon:All right, question number two. Go ahead.

1:12:21Dave Barnes:It's not very quick this round. This is what people know about our speed round.

1:12:26Lee Dixon:It's sort of a slow march round.

1:12:27Jon McLaughlin:Hard air quotes around speed. Favorite current Premier League player?

1:12:37Dave Barnes:Favorite current Premier League player. I like that question. I'm going to go. he's injured at the moment and but Pakaio's sacker look at this look at this just look at this there you go Dave is wearing I don't know how you can love

1:12:55Lee Dixon:someone that you've never met and they don't know that you exist but I do love him

1:12:59Dave Barnes:you know what I went back to the training ground we were trying to re-arsenalize the training ground because Unai Emery came and took all the pitches down in the training ground

1:13:09Lee Dixon:oh I didn't know that

1:13:10Dave Barnes:and when Arteta came he put them all back up and they tried to get some of the older players to turn up for a cup of tea and have lunch and just hang around the place and not not my greatest thing I want to do I think

1:13:25Lee Dixon:you know I like to stay out of yeah yeah yeah some of the players went and I just went on a

1:13:31Dave Barnes:particular day and I was standing pitch side with the with Edu and the chief exec we were watching training and then they finished training and all the players walked kind of about 30 yards away back to the training facility and we were just chatting and there was only two players came over and said hello to me. And I always, whenever I was at the training ground and I saw an older player, a retired player, ex-Arsenal, I did all my history, I read all the history books because I didn't know Arsenal from anywhere. I made sure I knew their history and how great the club was. And it gets embedded into you that why we're called the Arsenal, and that's the only team that's got a vert in front of us.

1:14:16Dave Barnes:Right, right. We put the vert there, but it doesn't matter. That's beside the point. The point is it's there. I did only, sorry?

1:14:25Jon McLaughlin:The point is it's there. It's there, absolutely.

1:14:28Dave Barnes:So I always made a point of going over and introducing and saying, Sammy Nelson or whoever it was, Charlie George, whoever, go over and say hello because they're legends of the club. But it's not like that anymore. The players are a little bit more transient. Some of them have. Some of them make it their business to find out and connect to the history of the club. But there's only two players who came over to say hello that day. One was Smith Rowe. He saw his voices to me and he came over and said, oh, nice to meet you. And the other one was the legend that is Mikhail Saka, who is the nicest boy you would ever want to meet.

1:15:17Lee Dixon:I just want to give him a hug. That's all.

1:15:19Dave Barnes:Yeah.

1:15:20Lee Dixon:That's weird to say. Okay, so best player you've ever played with?

1:15:26Dave Barnes:Dennis Bergkamp. Oh, my gosh. What a legend.

1:15:29Lee Dixon:Now we're on the speed round.

1:15:30Dave Barnes:It was touch and go because Thierry was pretty good. Of course.

1:15:34Lee Dixon:I mean, the fact that you can choose between those two is just an embarrassment of riches.

1:15:41Jon McLaughlin:What about best player you played against?

1:15:45Dave Barnes:Well, I always say there's two and for different reasons. The one-off, a one-off player, I only played against him twice, but for complete unpredictability and skill on the ball. and he doesn't really know what he's doing with it, so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to work it out, was Rivaldo, who was at Barcelona. He was just an incredible talent and really difficult to work out on the day. But for longevity and the amount of times I played against him and really hard was Ryan Giggs.

1:16:25Lee Dixon:Yeah, Giggs, yeah.

1:16:26Dave Barnes:Yeah, I mentioned it. The most difficult thing about, well, one of the most difficult things about playing against him was he never shouted for the ball. He never spoke on the pitch. So if I'm in my position and the play's over there and Ryan Giggs is on the wing, normally you can hear him shouting for the ball. So in your senses, you know where he's standing. So I'd always have to look where he was. And so I'd go, where are you? And then I'd see where he was. And then immediately as I look back to where the ball was, he'd then make a run. Make a run. but normally they'd shout for it and you go oh he's making a run and so you kind of drop off he never he never spoke that's so crazy we worked together on tv uh for in the world cup and what have you and i said to him that was the hardest thing and i always say he was my hardest opponent and he always says that i was his hardest opponent wow this doesn't really make much sense does it because you kind of but you just have to be on your game yeah yeah that's amazing let's switch

1:17:29Lee Dixon:stopped for one minute you were dead yeah uh okay two more here we go if you could replay

1:17:34Dave Barnes:one game which one would it be oh i'd actually yeah i know exactly which one i would play the uh 1999 fa cup semi-final against man united at aston villa where we lost with that gigs goal remember the Giggs goal because we were last minute with a penalty Roy Keane had just been sent off Dennis Burkhan has a penalty to win the game he misses the penalty, they go up the other end and score and we lose the hardest thing I ever did in football bar none was after that game me and Tony Adams went into the United dressing room they were all in there popping champagne and we walked into the dressing room to wish them all the best in the final

1:18:30Lee Dixon:wow jeez literally

1:18:31Dave Barnes:I went like this all the best the words were I was trying to tell you we need to do this because it was one of the one of the most amazing games he went to extra time he was just and so for it to be won with a goal by him in that way with a penalty being missed and Roy being sent off. It was just like, I'm never playing a game like that ever again. So we should mark it by going and wishing them all the best. Yeah. Jeez, that's classic.

1:19:05Jon McLaughlin:Your heart was more honorable than your body was willing to be.

1:19:11Jon McLaughlin:We have one more question, Dave. I can't ask it. You have to ask. Okay.

1:19:15Lee Dixon:Okay. So we love asking this to everybody. If you wrote a book on being a father, what would it be called?

1:19:23Dave Barnes:if I wrote a book about being a father what would I God you've thrown that one right at me haven't you

1:19:36Lee Dixon:get your kid on you're going in Lee you're going in stretch out

1:19:39Dave Barnes:what would I call it getting quite emotional because my dad passed away a couple of years ago and I he used to say this to me quite a lot and it's a very short title I'd just call it I'm here

1:19:58Lee Dixon:God that's beautiful I love that

1:20:00Dave Barnes:he always used to say to me when I rang him up and he'd go okay and I'd say something to him about a problem and he'd go like it's alright I'm here and I'd go right okay

1:20:13Lee Dixon:that's so great what a sweet thing you are a legend thank you for your time I know you've got Big day tomorrow. It means a lot. You made time to hang. I mean, this is literally a dream come true. It really is. This is such a fun, fun day.

1:20:28Dave Barnes:I've had fun. And I just, you know, spending time with you has been amazing because of obviously your Arsenal loyalty and spending time with John and watching him cringe at everything.

1:20:42Jon McLaughlin:I appreciate you both tolerating me during this conversation. Let me be in the room.

1:20:47Dave Barnes:this goes without saying that if you come to london you come over you hook me up and you can have my i've got two season tickets at the ground so if you want to go to sit in my seats you're

1:21:01Lee Dixon:more than welcome oh my god i just i just tt'd my pants just a little bit it was a respectable amount so what are you what are you going to give me yeah so what i can give you is do you have any guitars that you need or some blood?

1:21:15Dave Barnes:I need a drum lesson.

1:21:18Lee Dixon:That's what I grew up doing. Lee, we will play as much Genesis or Phil Collins or John Bonham. I'll even honor all of your English drummers. We can do Keith Moon. You tell me what you want. I will do any of those gladly. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Lee, what a wonderful time. Thank you so much. You're the best. Good to see you.

1:21:38Jon McLaughlin:See you. Bye.

1:21:42Jon McLaughlin:That feel.

1:21:46Yeah.

1:21:51Jon McLaughlin:Welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm David Thomas. And I'm Sissy Goff. And we are therapists who've been practicing with kids and families for over 30 years. And in each episode of our podcast, we're going to share some of what we're learning in this work that we do with kids and families on a daily basis. Our goal is to help you care for the kids in your life with a little more understanding, a little more practical help, and a whole lot of hope. We are honored to invite you to join us on this journey of Raising Boys and Girls.