Lori McKenna: Life is Hard, Go Full Force

21:59Jon McLaughlin:That's bowlandbranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash dadville. Code dadville to unlock 15 % off. Exclusions apply. So let me ask you this. Faith cuts his four songs. Where do you have singles? Well, Stealing Kisses was a single. Oh, yeah. Didn't do great. It was my first single. I think it got to like 28. That's not bad. No. But people need to know this is back when like having a song on one of those albums was a huge payday. Even one song with like, you know, we would all, wouldn't we love those days? But yeah, four songs. What album was that? It was Fireflies, which she got fire. Three songs made the record.

22:42And then the other one was a bonus track called Lone Star. But it was Fireflies, Stealing Kisses, and a song called If You Ask. Okay. And so I'm assuming that album probably sold really well. It did. Yeah. Like a couple mil, three, four, five. Yeah. But it's crazy that that would have been like, you'd have made some money from that. I think I just got to the point where it was like, I just got in there. Yeah. Where people were getting checks. Yeah. For album sales. And so it's got to be fun for you and Gene because all of a sudden it's like, hey, this thing you do for fun and you're playing and you're doing your rounds.

23:17Jon McLaughlin:Now Gene's going around heating up all the water in the house. He's like, you got money for it, girl. We still do not understand each other when it comes to the temperature of the house. What a great just comment left to itself. At that point, there's got to be some encouragement of you feeling like, oh, man, this could have some less. But it was so unbelievable, and it still is. So that happened, that's 2004. and the whole year so then the record came out 2005 so it was like a year which I think back and I describe it as like it was a year of every day was the day before Christmas because the album hadn't come out and then I started figuring certain things out where people would say you can't really trust it until you're you know you're at I mean at that point there was still record stores but you know you have to be at Walmart holding it in your hand and seeing that your songs have made the record.

24:17And people would be like, Faith cuts a lot of songs. A record has 12 songs. Yeah, so a lot of them are going to go away. So there was always somebody telling me, this might not, don't cash any check. Don't buy anything.

24:30Jon McLaughlin:Don't touch the thermostat. Yeah, but I hadn't, exactly. I hadn't co-written yet. Yeah, so those are all 100 %ers. Yes. That's amazing. So I came in and Melanie gave me a publishing deal and she knew I hadn't co-written songs and she's like, this is how this town works. And she put me with Mark D Sanders and Liz Rose. Like I had Brandi Clark early, like, you know what I mean? Like those, and they, I know. Right. So Mark D was like, Mark D's great. I mean, I sat in his office and he was like, do you have a business manager? I'm like, what's that? You know what I mean? Like, and, and people took care of me.

25:10you know i mean like i would stay at liz's house and you know just and liz liz really taught me how how to find the artist in the room how to find your space in the song and you know i mean and and and how to um how to love co-writing and i and i i in boston a community that we talked about like Like, Passim, if one of you guys is up on stage, you'd be like, oh, John just walked in. Come on, jump up here. There's that, like, everyone can play on each other's things and sing on each other's songs. I can't harmonize unless you like, hey, it's got to be real easy, and someone's got to teach me. And I can't play my instrument like that.

25:56You know what I mean? So I could never find, in that community, I never had a space where I could be helpful to a friend. Wow. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I could maybe drive you somewhere and do your laundry, but I can't like musically help you. And when I found co-writing here, I was, you know, sort of like taught, this is how we do it here. I, oh, you know, I had to build some confidence in it, but that's where I know I can help. Like I know I can at least give my all to be like, what if it did this? Yeah.

26:31Jon McLaughlin:So what was the transition like Like from, you go from years of you writing these songs just for you. Like they're like journal entries. And it's singular and it feels like it's very pure. And then all of a sudden, like you have this year where you get four cuts on Faith's album. And then all of a sudden you're like in the fire. What was the transition like? I feel like if I were you, I'd be like, okay, this is working because it's pure and it's me doing my thing. How do I now go into this world of business managers and expectations and all that kind of stuff, but somehow still keep it my thing?

27:18I think that there was a bunch of things that helped me with all that. is I had just had my son David, my fifth, like three days before that record came out that Faith cut the songs from. So I had this like, I had this, do you know what I mean? I had this like, this bigger thing. I had something way more important than whatever was gonna happen. And then I had enough. And you had the baby. And yeah. So. Yeah, but also just like this, this probably isn't gonna happen. This probably, I'm sure that someone's gonna call any minute and be like you shouldn't do this and then at the same time what a random call i got signed yeah hey it's me it's nashville it's me it's me it's me okay thank you you should stay home um at the same time i got a record deal with warner and i was make gonna make a record that byron gallimore and tim mcgraw produced so out of nashville warner out of nashville here and um and that was a whole thing but so this is all like you should write for this record and i did make that record was called unglamorous i wrote that with liz rose because she came to my house and she's like your life is so unglamorous like people think your friends with faith ill and and this is what your life is like you know in the in a loving way that's what she's doing but um but so i was writing for that record which mark d and i wrote a song for and liz and and they were teaching me how to co-write and there was all this like pressure of that but if i had just that pressure and didn't have like this anchor at home of like all of this is way more important this doesn't really mean anything um and gene had a good job like gene you know took care of everybody he paid the bills you know what i mean like i never would have been able to do any of it if i didn't have all the kids yeah gene and my my extended family like everyone that helped me so So I think when I look back, I'm like, everyone looks back at when their kid's a little and you're like, how did we do that?

29:20Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I look back and it's like, how did we do that? Like, I remember when I was offered the record deal, like going to Gene and being like, this sounds crazy, but I think we could do it and we'll see what happens. You know what I mean? And he was like, okay. You know? And then I had, when I had the youngest one, David, Brian was 12. So that's one thing I tell people. If you're going to have a baby, you should have a 12-year-old first. Because if you can have a baby and just turn around and hand it to a 12-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. It's a big help. Because he, you know, my big kids helped me raise the little kids because there was that gap.

30:01Well, and I wonder too if they're, I don't know this, you can tell me, but I wonder too if just being so far away that you could kind of go back home and go to a normal life. There was no touching up against your other. Yeah, that was a huge part of it that I didn't realize until later because I was like, are you going to move here? Are you going to move here? Are you going to move here? But the thing was, Gene had this job at the gas company, which today is his last day, which is crazy, but that was a hard job to get. At those days, a union job like that was hard to get, and you surely weren't going to pass it up.

30:36Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had a great job that was taking care of us. And all of my kids were in different schools and different ages. And it's like, I'm not going to rip everybody out of this. You know what I mean? Like, I can walk to my dad's house.

30:51Jon McLaughlin:So it sounds like you were never, you never had a time where you were like, I would love to move to Nashville. I never really had like that, oh, like that burning desire. Because I didn't, I didn't want the pressure of it. Like, I felt like I had enough pressure. but I also felt years later I realized, yeah, the problem with Nashville for me would have been, you know, going to get coffee in the morning and Tom Douglas is standing in front of you. And then you're like, what are you doing today? I don't know, what are you doing? And I would have overwritten. I mean, there's just too many, look at you guys.

31:20You know, there's too many brilliant writers in this town that you just can't win. Exactly. And so there's just too much here for someone that isn't, that isn't maybe at that time, I probably wouldn't have been able to balance it. You know what I mean? Now I could, you know what I mean? But my kids aren't tiny anymore. But with, you know, so the kids keeping me, it was like such a blessing that it happened the way it happened. And also crazy that it happened the way it happened because it shouldn't have happened. Because I always say like, it's like I won the lottery, but I didn't, I didn't buy a ticket.

31:56You know what I mean? Someone called and was like, Can Faith Hill cut your song?

32:00Jon McLaughlin:Somebody went into your journal and was like, you know, these numbers won the lottery yesterday. You're like, oh, I just wrote those numbers in my journal. We never look in journals, but we're just randomly looking in those journals. And that was also Missy Gallimore, too. So Mary Gauthier, Melanie Howard, Missy Gallimore, Faith. You know what I mean? And it was just like, I went over to Missy and Byron's house, because Byron produced that record. And they said, okay, the record's done. It's coming out this day. like come over to the house and you can listen to your cuts and i had never you know been to a house that nice to be honest yeah you know i mean and these are wonderful we're not we're not slamming i just want to be clear for all of our boston fans we are not slamming the homes in boston the homes are great they're beautiful they really are i mean can't that's why paul revere was so impassioned is trying to keep my eyes just couldn't stop riding past these houses look at the gardens but so i'm in this beautiful kitchen and and missy's like let's go in the other room we'll listen to your songs and i think it was just missy and i and she like sat me down and like pressed fireflies and left the room what a moment just for a second like just to be like let me give her a minute and when i heard faith hill sing that song like i my face broke open Like I bawled like a baby.

33:21And I've never been, I've never been so confused by a release of crying like that because it was like, there was so much in it. There was, it was mostly relief. It was mostly like, Oh my God, I get to, I get to do this. Like, Oh my God. Like I'd never heard anybody sing one of my songs and it's Faith Hill. And, and, um, and it's kind of a song about my mom. Like, you know what I mean? It's like all craziness. And, um, but it was mostly like, I get at least for a little while, I get to keep doing this and everyone's going to be okay. Yeah. You know what I mean? I remember, um, faith, this has been like 2000.

34:03I was interning on music row and at this, uh, digital audio, you know, like overdub kind of thing. And she was coming in and it was a big deal. I was like, listen, that's a big deal.

34:14Jon McLaughlin:Faith is coming in. You spent hours just looking at different diesel jeans that morning. Oh my gosh. Which one do I wear? Shaving and reshaving. Shaving and reshaving. And she walked in and was so unbelievably gorgeous. I remember at one point, I think the guy that I was interviewing for was like, you have to stop looking at her. And I was like, I'm so sorry. Had exactly that same conversation. You've already been fired. That's done. You have to leave. No, she's even stunning for me. You know what I mean? Like I have trouble not looking at her. And she was so great. Yes. She's so lovely. They both are.

34:46And, but the first time, one of the first times Jean met Faith was, I think, at a show. And we were like, you know, one of those big shows they did. And we're in like an elevator. And it was just the four of us, maybe or five people in the elevator. And I realized that Jean is still staring at Faith. And I was like, Jean, stop staring at Faith. And we all just laughed. But it was just like, she's hard to not look at. she's so just it's just like this core beauty yeah so let me ask you this now like how do you think about success now like what is that i mean the kids are gone you know so to some degree that anchor it's always there because your mom and they're always your kids but it's not tied to the home like it was so there's not that sort of like well i always know that if i go home that kind of gets me back and you know how do you think about that now i think that um well i think mostly I learned everything from my kids first of all like I don't think I've learned anything in my life if it wasn't like because of my kids I don't know I think that's why God gave me kids so young they're like she's in trouble we gotta get this 19 year old pregnant keep them going keep them going let's do another round another round another round one more yeah and then we thought we were done and then seven years later they're like yep still not getting it but I told you two of my kids are songwriters live in town and and when we get to like the business has changed so much or changes every day and and when we talk about the business and we get in these those conversations i'm always like wait everybody stopped like and nobody's complaining but just like the worry of like it's still that worry like the reason i was crying is like i get to do this it's like i think there's like maybe it's just me but like there's like in me a fundamental thing that i am going to get the phone call someday like we've had enough you don't need to do this anymore and i know i'm old enough now that i can i know well i'll just go back to the kitchen and i'll do it you know for myself just cooking for no one just kind of no but like sitting there trying to write a song in the

36:55Jon McLaughlin:kitchen you know but you still feel that way that like i still like i think that's hard to shake out of you know all of us because it's such a crazy job but when we talk about the business and stuff or get too much on the business side of things. I'm like, wait a minute, everybody. None of us wanted fame. None of us wanted to be wealthy. Like, I got to have all this money. You know what I mean? We make a living, and we get to have music be a huge part of our life. That's all we wanted. We wanted music to be a huge part of our life. And we get distracted by people telling us, you want to be on that stage.

37:32You want all these people to love you. you want this you want that because it seems like that's comes along with it but i think that really all we want is someone to hear our song and we want to be able to still have it be such a big part of our life you know i mean there is a part that i know that songs get written and then there is a part where there's a need to to show somebody you know i mean but that group can be a little controlled group too and still it can still feel that's how we all started you know like the trusted friend or like a boyfriend or a girlfriend that would listen or i think it's one of the things that i think is so peculiar about this job is that you can think of a lot of other industries and i think if you go into those industries you know what you're getting in for you're like you want to make money you want to build the company you want to sell the company I want to be the CEO.

38:28I want to be the CFO. I want to be whatever. These are like, I want to be a nurse, a doctor. And this is what those people get paid. It's all there. But I think what's so, and I felt this in my own life, and I think it's true with a lot of people that live here now and do this, is that I would say the lion's share of people that choose this job are what you just said. They're like, I just want to write songs. I want to play songs. I want to be on the stage. Some people, I know a couple of people that were like, man, the money piece is compelling to me. Yeah. I think that worked more back in the day.

39:01Yeah. Yeah. But more than not, it's like, I don't even know if this is going to work. I'm not thinking about the money. That's like way down the road. So then what happens is it works and then it gets really weird because you're like, I kind of didn't factor that in. And so then this thing that was really kind of pure and unadulterated suddenly gets sort to sideswipe by success and then you have to kind of recalibrate everything because you're like well shoot that's really working yeah and now i got to sort of what felt like i was you know your point sitting in my kitchen writing songs just loving it now there's like eyes on it now there's like expectations yeah i'm in a deal where do that again and so i think it's it's it's it's an industry in my opinion you know i don't know other industries that are like this i just know ours is where getting into it really is not super attached to a financial goal.

39:55It's really attached to a get songs cut goal or get on the stage goal. And it's one of the reasons I always feel so compelled to sit with younger artists and just kind of spend time with them is I just think there's so many things about this job that if it works can really throw you because it just so rarely works that you don't even let yourself think about it. right and then when it does all of those things just sort of get dumped on you at once you know of like why is my uncle being weird and calling me all the time well you know and you you know which you know for some of us that's been our whole life but um but you know it just has all these things and your point i think then you have to develop these really bizarre disciplines kind of like later than most people do in their career where you go or in their lives sorry like in your 20s where you're like oh i guess i gotta start thinking about money where you know a lot of people that go to business school are like that's the first thing i'm thinking about i'm trying to like you know talk to a buddy of mine that worked for um shell uh and he was like i knew you know in high school i had spreadsheets on the companies i wanted to work for what you could make at that age and i knew by this he was trying to be retired by 40 you know and so you just you talk to these kind of people but with our world that's just not usually the case it's like i just want to get them cut i want to hear i know and then it's like all the others suddenly comes in and you're like whoa i sort of wasn't prepared for this kind of things i have to think about which then affect what you're actually doing i know and tons of songwriters have that like creative mind to run a business as well obviously we all know you know y 'all are good i've i just that piece never has not come to like in in my world it's like i still hear just a guitar vocal people like you'll start hearing our little production pieces here and then like never never never never landed in this brain of mine you know what i mean like rarely i've seen people do it you know over and over again in demo sessions and sessions where like i hear a church bell you know what i mean it's like really where i don't you know what i mean and that's all that's just what it needed but you just heard it yeah but uh i just hear the core of the song and i think that um maybe it's lucky in a way because i have been able to just keep doing this and i have been able to help my family out and you know and and not have all the pressure beyond gene for the struggling you know artists over here that i've been um but i've been so lucky in that way but i also i i re i think everything comes at you just like you said everything comes at you like now you should do this now you should this like at my in my stage it's like now you should open a company now you you should start a publishing company.

42:35Now you should do this. Right. And. I like how your voice is lower when you're doing that. Now you should do this. Now you should do this. Now you should do this. It's like the. That's the man. That's the man. You can just say it's a man. It's a man. It's a man. but I don't, would I be good at that? I don't know. Like, who am I serving at that point? You know what I mean? And, and the music has just been so good to me. And, and this town has been so kind to me that I think I should just stay doing what I, what I know how to do. But I think that it's got to be so much harder for these kids now.

43:03Because, I mean, we have all sat in rooms where an artist walks in and they're like, the label just says, I just need to go viral again. And in my brain, the definition of viral means we don't know how this happened. Yes, that's hysterical. You know? I've never thought about that. As someone that that happened to with the faith thing, like that happens once. You know what I mean? And then you have to be, you know, I'm lucky, but I have to work hard. You know, you can't just be lucky. You can't just go viral or whatever it is. John and I can, but most can't. Yeah, you know what I mean? Sure. So you said, Gene, I wanted to ask you about this 30 years.

43:4537 years. Oh my gosh, 37 years. Well, let's do a map. I'm 57 and we got married when I was 19. Yeah. Yeah. He's tried to leave me a lot. I just won't let him. He's like, honey, where are the suitcases again? I don't know why. That's weird. What a funny question. Weird. We're out of suitcases. Why are all the cars flat tires? Yeah, but even that, like if we weren't with each other all the time, like I've always done this thing where I come here twice a month for three days. Like I come in on a Monday morning and I leave on a Wednesday evening usually. And I do that like every other week. You know what I mean?

44:23or touring, which I've never done a lot of touring, but three days of touring, three days of writing a song, twice a month, you know what I mean? And so you get to miss somebody and you get to, you know what I mean? Just be like, or sit on a plane by yourself and there's a couple and you're like, they like each other. Like, oh, I do like, you know what I mean? And we grew together. 38. Is that what it is? We don't know. We got married in 1988. I know that. So if that helps. Yeah. Yeah. 38. That's so, yeah. So what do you like? Do you have like a couple of things that you feel like you've learned?

45:02Like you can say, man, 38 years of marriage has taught me this about marriage. The only thing I know is that, well, Missy Gallimore taught me this a long time ago that if you call your, your partner baby, it really helps out. Like if you say, instead of being like, Hey, you jerk, you know what I mean? Like move the car. be like baby you gotta move the car you know what I mean but you can still say the same thing like baby your socks are on the floor again you know what I mean but also like I think we were so young when we got married we were so we've been so lucky but I think we just he's a learner and I'm a learner too and I think we're really opposites in a lot of ways but if we're both willing to learn That's so good.

45:53What a great word. I love that. You know what I mean? I guess growing-wise, you know what I mean? Not that we've grown so much. Do you feel at 57 a pull toward sedentary? Do you feel it in you to go, I just want to be okay with what I think everything is? I feel like when I think of people, I'm 47, but when you get into the years that I'm heading toward that you're in, I think, I just feel like there's, I see this with a lot of people's parents where it's like, Hey, this is just what I am. I kind of take it. I don't feel that way. That's great. At all. That's a great. And I don't think Gene does either.

46:33I mean, maybe he would be a little like, and that's been our kids. That's really been our kids. And, um, and just kind of keep you from doing it. Yeah. And just like they learn something. You're like, really? What's that about? You know what I mean? Yeah. And, um, and I think I definitely don't feel that way. Like I, that's one thing about music, like think about music. Well, you guys are incredible piano players, but like I look at my piano and I'm like, I'm going to take that. I'm going to take that. I'm going to take that. You want to start again? No, just, I like that you said both of us are great.

47:04You play piano, Dave. Did I tell you that Malcolm did email me about piano? That's a little, that's an inside joke. Okay. So, so. No, but I'm never, I look at my piano every day and I'm like, it seems to make sense. Not today. You know, like it just seems. It's right there. It's just like white keys, black keys. They're right. There's a pattern. There's a pattern. It's just 12. It just seems like I should be able to do it. And guess what? Not today. Not today. I mean, you know what I mean? It's like I still, as much as I've been doing music for so long, I still don't know how to play the piano.

47:41Like I, my dad's 91. Like when I'm 91, maybe I'll know, you know, maybe I'll be able to do something on there. You know what I mean? but I just feel like the last thing at my age that we should be doing is being like, I'm good, you know what I mean? But my bubble has gone, my bubble's smaller. Like I stay in a little bit of a bubble. Like Gene wants to watch the news all the time and things like that. I'm like, do we know the news? Let's just sit in the backyard. You know what I mean? And things like that. And maybe that's a little not great because I do say my little bubble. Sorry, I just love, let's sit in the backyard.

48:16Don't we just sit in the backyard? Gene's like, honey. Not on the porch. I really want to be in the yard. I want grass. The kids say, touch grass. You know what I mean? You got to get those bare feet on the ground.

48:27Jon McLaughlin:Dave, you said you referred to what's coming up in your life. Something that I always think about. My girls are 13 and 10. I always think about empty nesting. Oh, yes. I don't think that's a thing anymore, guys. You don't think so? Tell us more. They don't go. They stay. Oh. I think they still I mean I don't want to get my hopes up I want that to be the case I want them to leave for a minute I want them to go do their thing and then I want them to buy the house across the street just like you guys we're testing it explain that I just think that I don't want to reveal too much about my idea about parenthood because it's kind of scary but you know when your kids are little and people when your kids are older and people with young kids are like, please tell me it gets better.

49:19Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. And you're like, yeah, yeah.

49:22Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, well, you better tell us it doesn't. It doesn't. Well, it just changes, right? The problems change. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's definitely been the case in my experience. And so I feel like I'm on a text chain with my core group of girlfriends from high school. And my kids are older, but we all have kids that are the youngest that are now going off to college. you know and um and i we've all talked about this like we've we almost feel like we're more involved in our kids lives now wow than we were back then when they were little was there like a tip though well i think this is the thing yes there is and i think that i know i also know people that are like kids are out sell the house we're moving to south carolina like see ya whoa whoa tell me i was ready for florida i was not ready yeah but you know what i mean like it's too far but um i I do know people that have set that up as well.

50:15But I feel like when the kids are younger, they kind of orbit around our world. They kind of have to. It's not easy. We're always pulling them in and juggling it. But when they become adults, and I've loved having adult children. Like I love going out to dinner with my kids and stuff like that. You know what I mean? And now we have to orbit around their world. That's a great way to put it. when you know i mean when we want in yeah you know what i mean and you have to go to them yeah yeah and i'm lucky because three of the kids live here and so i'm here you know twice a month at least and and so i get and i we have a grandkid now my my son chris has has a baby it was going to be one in a couple of weeks here he lives here okay so when i'm here i stay with them so i've watched them do you know i mean like all you know i mean like and i've learned again so much from that just what like oh yeah like you know what i mean with the brand new baby like i'm imagining

51:15Jon McLaughlin:you now like rocking a little baby to sleep and then working on a song just like you did back in the beginning it's like it's come full circle now it's so funny because we literally last night we all had dinner together the baby's in the room like right you know the next room over practically and we're all trying to i'm getting i'm trying to get my son chris to teach me the song that we wrote together that i didn't know how to play and he's he's playing it and we're all like so sweet. Be quiet. I mean, you have won. Speaking of the lottery, I mean, you have won the lottery. What an incredible, great.

51:48I mean, that's the most, when you say success, like, I feel like if your family is successful in that way, in a loving way, that we love each other, like, you know what I mean? Like, and you have friendships that you love, like, you know what I mean? Like, I, my life has been a dream. You know what I mean? And it's not like everybody else where you have things that you have to that you don't like and that you have to work through or pray through or whatever, you know what I mean? But we've been so lucky. Like I just feel, I wake up every day and I feel like I'm like, I'm the luckiest person I know.

52:22You know what I mean? That's great.

52:24Jon McLaughlin:How great is that? But I think it's that thing where, and it's not all, it's like, it's not that I don't complain. You know what I mean? I try not to, but I do. Do you sleep with the Grammys or are those on the side table? Yeah. How does that work? Do they hold the sheets down on the bed? Just kind of. Yeah. We get that duvet is finally on. So let me, let me, you know what I was going to say earlier, which is why it's frustrating. There's only three because there's four. I was going to say, well, we'll get you there. Well, you got Gene for that final quarter. Just hold it down. Gene, don't move.

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54:28Jon McLaughlin:going from hot to cold and then back again i'm always thinking about layers like yeah what am i wearing day to day i got the you know have the layers i've been trying to keep it simple yeah yeah that stuff's comfortable yeah easy yeah but still looks put together you know dave that's why i keep going back to quince i knew you're gonna say you know i was going there they have all of my staples think 100 european linen shorts and shorts starting around 34 bucks ridiculous and And their Pima cotton tees. Don't get me started. Those are next level soft. Like whatever level you're thinking of, it's the next one.

55:03Jon McLaughlin:Maybe two up. Maybe two up. Yeah. Like you're putting on and immediately, you immediately notice the difference. You love it so much. It's hard to say. Once his pants hit that same balance too. Comfortable enough to wear all day, but still nice enough to go pretty much anywhere. Look, I picked up one of their linen shirts recently. It was mine. It was mine. I took it right off your back. You did. And it's been a consistent rotation of mine. Yeah, you love it. It's super lightweight. It's super breathable, but it looks put together. And it didn't cost what I thought something like that would cost.

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56:22isn't it crazy as parents if we pause long enough and this sounds like such an obvious comment that like but the fact that your kids would have never done that if you didn't do it like especially being in boston i mean again there's singer song writers i'm not saying that there's incredible people out there but you know it's just a reminder as you said that it just felt like this dawned in me once again that like man as parents we have so much influence on these kids and I think of course we do everybody's like that's the dumbest thing ever but but to that degree we're like if you had if faith hadn't cut those songs and maybe you're just kind of like I'm gonna go write these songs for me and play around the area and have fun and do my artist thing and that's gonna be what I do right you know your kids lives could be drastically different right They still may do this, but it's just such a – it feels like those moments every now and in my life where something gets so crystal clear and you kind of have that kingdom vision where you're like, whoa.

57:28I laugh with Annie every now and then. I'm like, I'll just have those moments where I'm like, I am responsible for three human beings. It's crazy. The end. It's crazy. I pay for their food. I give them a place to live. If you get that clarity for just nanoseconds, it's crippling. You're like, oh my God, oh my God. Granted, I believe God does that. But these moments, we have clarity. But even thinking about that, just as a parent, how your songwriting, all of a sudden your kid's like, huh, that's kind of cool. I want to do that. Yeah, and I think my oldest certainly would have been an artist anyway, Brian, because he just had that.

58:08He's just such an artist. but um but i always say that like when when chris the middle one was said you know he moved to la first but he's been here for years but he moved to la first he's like i'm gonna move to la and be a songwriter and you know try to be a songwriter and um excuse me i'm gonna cry no okay and um and and when chris like announced that he was gonna be a songwriter gene was like look at what you've done i mean look at what you started look at what like we're we're in big trouble now you know and i said to gene i'm like listen these children came up in this living room of the two of us walking through the door and me walking through like with my job you know what i mean and then him gene's a gas man that we're you know i mean like and it's like even if you love that job it's hard to love that job and he comes home with one look on his face and i come home with another look on my face and usually i've been gone for three days but it's like if a kid just like doesn't even know what you do but two people come in a room yes and one right is is like won the lottery by mistake and the other one is grinding yeah to take care of his five kids and pay the Like he did all that.

59:32He has done all that. But and he would have done it no matter what. Do you know what I mean? But when when a kid is going to be like, I want that. I want to do that job. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so Gene was raised like you, you go to high school, you get a job. You take care of yourself.

59:50Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. And his parents were, you know, loving parents like his mom's the greatest. You know what I mean? But that was how kids were raised. you know and i think i wasn't raised exactly and there was more room for well what do you want to do yeah what does your heart say you should do like what makes you happiest you know and i'm always like a 20 year old that's when they should do all those things yeah and um and i so i think that if like jokingly gene blames me on all the songwriters in the family but it's i always tell I'm like, I think it was more your fault. If you had just been happier, they would have been working at the gas company.

1:00:28They would all want to work at the gas company.

1:00:30Jon McLaughlin:Do they want your input on their songs? No, I mean, we share songs with each other and we write together a fair bit, but no, not really. I mean, Chris has a pub deal and Brian does the artist thing and I don't think he wants a pub deal. He's doing bartending. But it's like, again, he works at a great restaurant in town, loves the people he works with, loves his job. And then music is a huge part of his life. He built this thing where he gets to do, he works this much and then he creates this much. You know what I mean? That's a successful life. I can't imagine. You said this a couple times, but it's just so true that to have a successful career, whatever that looks like in this job, so many things have to go certain ways.

1:01:25Oh, God, yeah. And I think if my kids came to me and said, hey, we want to do music, it'd just be like, obviously, if that's what God wants you to do, you got to do it. Yeah. Go. And forget the economy of music right now. Let's assume it's great. It still would be like, man, if I sat down, it's why it's so beautiful hearing your story and I know you're the same John it looks like if I sat down and really was able to remember every little wink, wink oh and then that and then gosh they were there at that show and then you know what that's when I met and gave the CD to someone and it's just a million of those kind of sliding door moments where you're like 100 % yes do it but not only is your mom one of the greatest writers in town she also was so blessed no you still yeah your mom we've got her here actually we've got some of our music that John's gonna play on piano she has a couple holds this week this week fingers crossed yeah but you know that it's not just that you're great it's also that man just the things that had to happen I know to make you be where you are and so it would be interesting having a child doing it not just that they're looking at my career comparing it but just that you're going hey it's not just that I'm good let's forget the talent that I have but man because that doesn't necessarily they kind of know too much they kind of know too much is the problem it would be it would be an interesting thing to juxtapose if I was if my parents had done that and had success like you've had to go let's forget that even just that dynamic and we all know second or third generation writers in this town that have made a life of it it is harder for the it's hard well even if it's like the name like I would never like call you know and be like hey can you give my kid a publishing deal obviously that wouldn't happen but and I think and I do kind of stay away from it for the reasons but we all know people that like Summer Overstreet for example is one of the best songwriters I've ever been in the room with she's unbelievable she's an unbelievable singer who are people that you probably say are other great writers you've been in the room with I mean just today I wasn't even asking for that the greatest piano players ever but I really want a thing that says that

1:03:43Jon McLaughlin:ever dave bartz great piano player great but but summer knew everything do you know what i mean like she knows she knows what the business yeah like that that and she's still you know she was still called to do it thank god but you know i think would be hard to i've never thought about this it would be hard for me if if if you were my mom to go okay mom's done this thing to not sort of like why is this so hard mom does it yeah she's done it what yeah like that would be really challenging for me if my mom or dad did that and going why is it not happening yet yeah going like i've seen her she just keeps having success but that happens with kids all with everything you know what i mean like like why can't i find a house everybody else find a house you know what i think for me one of the things that was such a blessing with my career is that there was no yeah there was nothing to juxtapose the ignorance is bliss yeah well there was no there was no pace setter yeah i was just kind of i don't know this feels pretty great i think right now just feel good to everybody like we booked that okay how much oh that's great that happened cool there wasn't like well where was mom or my brother yeah at this point yeah yeah um because man up until 28 they're doing great but boy that's when they're gonna get in trouble with you it's like uh we're getting this is when mom starts to click you know which i think would be a really interesting i mean i didn't get my publishing deal until i was 36 oh that's well that's great yeah yeah um but i always tell my kids this too i'm like nothing happens till you're 40 nothing happens till you're 40 i mean life happens but like nothing like you don't i mean at least for me it's like when you turn 40 there's something that in your body that's like okay i'm really this person this is really like this is really happening you know what i mean like i i i'm gonna you know and maybe you know i feel like there's like a comp you get to be a little bit more confident in yourself in your 40s i feel like like not the hunkering down like this i am who i am because i think we always can change and grow yeah but i feel like there's a there's a there's that there's like an age somewhere in your 40s where you you realize like there's data that you can go i'm pretty consistently doing this i definitely agree and maybe a little less of like well when i was a kid you know what i mean like yeah a little less of that your 50s it gets even better like i feel I feel like the 50s and even the 60s, which I'm hoping, can be this really awesome time.

1:06:09Okay, so let me ask you one last thing because we have a speed round coming up that you really need to buckle up for. I can't do math. When you think about Gene today, he's free. Yeah. As of 5 o 'clock today, he will be free. You may never see him again. I may not see him. I did think about he may be gone when you get home. but it's been such a good run. I know. Exactly. He's going to wake up in South Carolina tomorrow. Columbia this time of year. Just gorgeous. But like, you know, what do you, what gets you excited about this next season for y 'all? Like he's retiring, you know, you've got mobility like you do to keep writing songs.

1:06:50Your kids are all settled in their places. Like, have y 'all kind of had that talk of like, yeah, what does this look like for us? well we're gonna i mean probably the house that we have in stoughton is like the the main house and we'll probably streamline thing you know i mean like i sort of want to just like be more efficient with that and maybe have a smaller house are we talking about the thermostat again yeah we are that's exactly what we're talking about tape off some rooms yeah yeah yeah because it's a big problem like it's it's a it's about a four degree difference uh that's big

1:07:25Jon McLaughlin:That's a big one That's big And you can't take the utility out of the guy Like he's gonna be a utility guy Wait he's been swimming in that water Are you wanting colder and he wants warmer Well in the summer I would like it to be cooler Yeah And he wants Honest to God Gene wants me to keep the AC in the house And this is a blessing to have AC in the house At 76 That's too high Gene that's not air conditioning Gene's a big listener I know He didn't miss an episode and I want him to hear that's too hot. And in the winter he wants it at 68 which I can kind of live with. He's got those flipped. That's a little better.

1:08:03I know he's got them flipped. That's right. Yeah he's got and my dad worked for the Boston Edison for 42 years. What is that? Oh the power company? The power company in Boston which is now not there but it's Eversource or something but he and he we lived in this ranch house and I'm the youngest of six and he would walk down the hall and shut up all the lights and yell. I work at the electric company. I don't own the electric company. Oh my gosh, I love that. So I've been like, you know, they always say like, you marry the image of one of your parents and it's like, so that's Gene.

1:08:36Jon McLaughlin:Did your father see it as a rebellion that you married someone at the... Oh no, I think he loves it. You didn't go electric. Much rather talk to Gene than talk to me. Oh my gosh. But no, I think we'll streamline, you know what I mean, the house at home and... Wait, do you think y 'all will sell it? I think we'll try to at least, We get all the kids stuff. Curate some. Here's your box. I love that you just said curate. You have used streamline and curate, which are the kindest ways of saying what you're really trying to say. You need to get your stuff out of the garage. My mom will show up at our house with a box.

1:09:13This is all your stuff? I'm like, oh, we're doing that. We're doing that now. Found out, yeah. Sorry, I've just been curating today. Curating some things of yours. But that's what Gene wants all the kids. He just wants all the kids to buy a house so we can just drop all the stuff. Yeah, just see ya. And then we have the condo here, which needs, you know. And Gene can fix anything. And one of our kids just bought a condo here. And he just, you know, he's a lot to do. But in the back of my brain, I'm also like. But now you'll have the place in Florida. Yeah. So that'll be something too. And his mom's down there.

1:09:45She's like a snowbird down there. Oh, yeah. But in the back of my brain, because we love, like we do an RV trip with the family every year where we rent an RV somewhere and drive it around. But in the back of my brain... All the kids? Yeah, like this year we have two. We rented two. Holy cow. So you're driving one. Yeah, I can drive in a straight line. But I almost killed us a couple of times.

1:10:06Jon McLaughlin:Kansas is great. We're gonna go, we're gonna do Maine this year. Mom, it's your shift. Oh God. Maine, you're gonna be in trouble. Yeah, I have almost hurt us a lot. Because those switchbacks, you know. But anyway, I can drive in a straight line. But anyway, part of me is like, you know, next year we could buy one of those you know little sprinters or something and Gene I could just get in that thing girl yeah so is Gene like let's go he would do that oh yeah he's ready for anything let's go and have fun and do the thing yeah Gene's ready for anything yeah but he won't let you hire anybody to put a ceiling fan in your bedroom he's gonna do it so that's the other thing good you know that what an exciting what an exciting season what an exciting exciting season yeah and I think he I think it's hard for people to retire.

1:10:52Oh, no doubt. We're not going to... When we have those meetings and stuff, I'm like, dude, you're going to have to pry the guitar out of my hand. I know.

1:11:00Jon McLaughlin:It's funny. With what we do, it's like, well, I'm hoping to never retire. Yeah. The people will tell me when I'm done, I'm hoping they hire me forever. People might as well. The thing that I think is true is we're kind of... Did Annie say... Somebody said this to me in the last couple of years and maybe laughed so hard. They were like, you're kind of half retired all the time. like your schedule looks dangerously close to a retired schedule because it's i mean i think our kids feel like yeah oh yeah i mean he was retired he did own a guitar and he would write songs some i guess and then every now and then he'd be like gone for a night or two yeah right but otherwise we just assumed he was an alcoholic but um but you know but i think the thing that's great about our job is i think the transition into that i mean i kind of feel like my life is what we do is so bizarre because it's like you can have you know if you wanted to without problem same with john and i you could go i just don't want to do anything next week yeah there's not really anybody in our lives it would be like no other than a show for the three of us other than eventually the power company the power company well if you want more granddad is calling and he's like john um no but that is and we got a taste of it with covid like we got a taste of everything like what happens like were you you guys must have been the same but it was like oh this is a this is a weekend this is a saturday like this is what we do yeah you know i mean and i kind of like you know loved it yeah oh yeah and where a lot of people a lot of artists had like a really hard like a terrible time with it because that's such a big piece of what they do but for me anyway i feel like i'm lucky in the way that i just really need the the songs to still come and to for the time you know Because what we do, I know when you say that about our jobs, we do sort of seem like we're half retired.

1:12:51But nobody's writing down like drove straight home from Philly after the show because it was a soccer game on Sunday. We've all had those days where we're driving. But you're not driving because that's not a straight drive. You would be that to get a lot of turns. Not a 32. But I have done that many times. We all have. And I kind of miss those days. This is off topic. but I miss those days of, you know, in Boston, you played the Boston area and you play North Hampton, like North, the North, North, Western mass and the mass Pike, you know, just goes through. It's like a two hour shot from like, like, and I miss those days of like driving home in a snowstorm and listening to, you know, yeah.

1:13:35Listening to, it's the best way to listen to music. How do you guys listen to music now? You know what I mean? It's driving. I know. Late at night, after a show when you can't sleep yet anyway, and listening to one of your friends. Especially with your music, with the band. You know, where somebody would be like, dude, you know what you had in here? Oh, dude, that is... It's the best. It is the best. I miss that. I miss that. We'll drive around after this meeting. Okay, can we get in the car? Okay. Okay, so now it's a speed round. Oh, God. I'm scared. I'm not good at this. You're great. My processing's pretty slow.

1:14:06No, it's okay. It's okay. There's barely any mess. Lie if you want to. Okay. We have some fun moments here. A sentence you say now that your younger self would be shocked by. Oh, wow. See, I want to think about that now. Yeah, you can. A sentence that I say now. The curating probably, no. I wouldn't have been worried about streamlining my garage a few years ago. There it is. There you go. That's good. That works.

1:14:33Jon McLaughlin:Okay. What's the most mom purchase you've made recently? Oh, mom purchase. to go along with that, literally, I bought the bins, you know, the storage bins. Like, a hundred million of them because I'm like, everyone's going to get bins. Your name will be on your bin. Your kids can feel that too. When they come out of your house, like, uh-oh. Oh, no. This has been a thing. They see that container store receipt on the counter. No, I got a stack. It's happening. It's happening. Because Gene's retiring. Also, there's a huge, a huge thing in my family. I have misplaced a book of Pokemon cards. Oh. Uh-oh.

1:15:16A binder. Which I don't believe I misplaced. Yeah, of course you do. But the family feels like you were the culprit.

1:15:22Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm gonna find those Pokemon cards. Do you think, I don't know, I just thought about this. Do you think you're gonna have to like run Gene? Like, do you think there's gonna be days that you're like, manage him? Just like run him. It's like, let's get some energy out Gene. Let's just do some laps in the yard. For sure. Give him projects. For sure. Honey, you know what we should do is, should we dig up the back part of the fence? Or it sounds like he's just going to do that. He is like that. He doesn't get bored. That's good. I mean, for all you people that haven't found your love of your life yet, find someone that cannot be bored.

1:15:55He's never bored. That's great. That's such a good quality. It's such a good quality. Okay. A rule in your house that you never thought you'd enforce. Oh. It's the kitchen sink. What is that? It's like I need it to be empty. I can't have stuff in it. You've got to be empty. I'm kind of a tired. Like, I wish I wasn't like that. I wish it didn't, like, raise my cortisol or whatever. Yeah. But when the zinc is full, I'm... You and John. John is connecting. Everything has to stop.

1:16:23Jon McLaughlin:We're on a deep level right now. Yeah. It's a little, like, OCD. It's not great. But I wish I wasn't like that. How do you feel about the empty plastic grocery bag sitting on the counter? No. No. Does that bother you? No. Immediately. That doesn't bother you? Why would you? why would you no that bothers me why would you leave it there you felt so alone in that nanosecond wait it doesn't bother now we're together Dave will send me randomly he'll just send me a picture just a bag just a lone bag on his counter that's mean I have to delete the picture from my phone that's mean that's so mean okay four people you would love to have dinner with this is one we always love to ask sorry let's just say which four of your kids can't have all five can't be I feel like David's probably out.

1:17:08We love David, but he's probably out. Oh, my God. I mean, is that one of the things where you can like... Living or dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember this so well, but a long time ago, when I was first becoming friends with Liz Rose, her son, Scott, had on his Facebook page, like, who would you like to meet? And he said his mom and dad in their 20s. Oh, that's great. It wasn't just like... Because my mom passed away when I was little, so I, of course, would love to spend time with my mom. Has your dad stayed a winter? Yeah. He remarried? He remarried when I was in high school. But yeah, and my stepmom's great.

1:17:46But I would love to see my mom and my dad as young parents. That's a great answer. Like any of these questions that we talked about today, like not the older version of our parents, but a younger version of them. You know what's funny? I've never thought about this. I feel like the longer that I know my parents, the more I feel like I'm getting to know them that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's less. That's so cool. There's less parental stuff and it's much more like talking to a friend. And they're always my parents. But it is. That's funny that you say that because I do. I literally feel like with every year with my parents, I'm like, man, it kind of feels like I'm hanging out with like 30 year old dad sometimes.

1:18:27Because there's just not the weight of like, son, you know, let me. He's kind of like, no, you got it. he's like you're okay or like i can be like what'd you do here's the thing you know where that just wasn't yeah it's you're having i'm having conversations that you don't have as a kid dude you just reminded me i know this we're in the middle of whatever you call this high powered speed round yeah i'm bringing it up but i had a show um last week and uh at the country music hall of fame and the little room beside the the my daughter-in-law does my makeup and she brought the baby so the my little grandson miles is there with with like you know my team is there and and my marcarelli is there and the baby's in the middle of the room and we're all surrounding this little baby at the country music hall of fame and my friend uh medium build was there oh yeah gosh incredible nick carpenter like incredible guy we're all sitting there and we're watching the baby and the baby is as you know immediately going to like the backpack with the knife hanging out of it you know i mean like what sure i'm in the country music hall of fame what's the most danged what can kill me first you still travel with that knife but you know it was like whatever like like the and it was just like of course it's the first thing he makes a beeline to yeah and and i said isn't it crazy how babies like they're always trying to hurt themselves like you put them in this room with all these other things immediately the first thing is to hurt themselves right and nick says yeah imagine what god thinks about us and you just reminded me of that when you talked about your parents like okay he's got it now like is there and my brain was like is there ever a point where god's like they're okay oh no no but it's like and i was like oh i never thought about like it's like are you really gonna get in that car after you just drank those you know what i mean like what are you doing now yeah and it's like what a great but what uh that just remind me of you saying like there is a turn where it's like they are going to be okay yeah and you know i mean i wonder what age that is as a parent like do you feel that with yours yet where you're really like i am mom but very minimally mom i'm much more yeah i feel like i but i'm also i feel like i kind of feel i feel like they're all going to be okay you know i mean i really do I am a positive thinker, you know what I mean, in most cases.

1:20:47And I feel like we are so lucky. But I feel like they all have a good root system where they, you know what I mean. And I didn't teach them anything. They've been just teaching me the whole time. Honestly, I didn't. What's Lori been like as a mom? Honestly, pretty underwhelming. I have to teach her stuff all the time. She's like a sponge, though. I've just been feeling it. I haven't been thinking it. She can't take a left in the car. It's just been years of trying to get her to go with it. Okay, how about this? Two more questions. Okay. Song you wish you wrote. Oh, it's always. I can't make you, if I can't make you.

1:21:25I mean, it's the best thing that's ever happened in the whole planet. I mean, I just, I look at that song. I mean, melodically, obviously, but like, and I don't know Mike Reed, but I know Alan a little bit. I've seen him perform that song a few times. And I just, no matter who sings it, no matter how they sing it, it's just.

1:21:45Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. You can do it in any configuration that song works. Yeah. It's really hard to find a bad version of that song. And it's like any, it's a song that produces what is written. It's a song that. What a great way to say that. You know what I mean? Like those songs are hard to find. It's a song that gives you, it produces the pain almost that it is sharing. And those are hard to do. That's so good. And I also love the way that it took them a minute. They had to fight for it. Oh, yeah, yeah, numerous times, yeah. And I love the way that it changed. You know what I mean? And I love that story because I love the part in the song.

1:22:28I almost like the part in the song when it's hard. when you know like oh it's gonna be okay but i i don't know what we're doing right now right and then you get it and it's like oh my god we did that like it was so confusing yeah

1:22:46Jon McLaughlin:but that one's always i mean that's a good one what would you guys say i mean i mean i actually answered this yesterday when we were chatting about it yeah it's yesterday is that song for me yeah i feel like but i mean that song i can't make you love me i mean it is one of the greatest songs of all time in my opinion you know this is random you know what one of mine is i've got a few but one of them is um the living years by mike and the mechanics that's a great song what a song what a song that song are just yeah yeah every generation blames one before i mean there's just so many like when he talks about his dad dying i mean it's just like god that's and And then it's like a pop song.

1:23:28Yeah. I know. Which I love even more. It's not like some little folk thing that you're like, you played the bluebird nobody loves, but nobody wants to touch. It's like that chorus, choir. It's just such a cool song. That's such a good answer because it's so, that is like an underrated song a little bit, isn't it?

1:23:44Jon McLaughlin:It's so heavy. Yesterday was a pretty good answer, too. Yesterday's a great answer. Thank you, Lori. You guys are so competitive with each other. Okay, this is the last question. Okay. This is the final one. Okay. This is the math question. If you divide... Oh, my... If you wrote a musical... We're not going to do song. Oh, I like that. We're going to do musical. I like that. If you wrote a musical on being a mom, what would the title of the musical be? Oh, wow. You can say humble and kind of bad. What was the title? I'm trying to think, like, what is my motto? My motto, I don't really have one.

1:24:22Teach them nothing. Yeah. Let them teach you. my jeans motto in life is life is hard you got to go full force that's like that's his motto um that's like we like we kid him but that's his like thing like you just it's you got to get through it you just gotta you know i mean but he he tends to see things darker than i do yeah and i feel like um what i don't know what the title would be but i just feel like you got you You know, you have to like, if you look for things that are bad, you're going to just find things that are bad. And if you look for things that are good, you're going to find a lot of things.

1:25:03Look for the light. Look for the light. Stand in the light. That's a co-write. That's a co-write. I already got the chorus. Laura, you're the best. You guys. I love you guys. I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like you are someone that everybody loves. Yeah. Everybody I know, your name comes up. They're like, she's the best. That's because they don't know me that well. Well, that's what I say. So then they'll say that, and I'm like, well, can I just add one? It's the mystery. You don't. You really don't know her.

1:25:29Jon McLaughlin:There's a really dark, dark, dark side. That's why her voice is so sad.

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