Matt Nathanson: Looks Like a Child, Punches Like and Adult

26:31And I think it's informed how I parent immensely because I do the exact opposite of how I felt I was treated. I'm very communicative with my daughter. She's 15. The other night, I was mad about something and I kind of got her out of whack about it. and she and my wife came down and said you know will is feeling you know and i just kind of went up and said dude i'm sorry i was totally out of line like i was just being a an a-hole and you know i'm i'm frustrated because i feel like i'm not i'm not seeing you enough and i feel like there's some distance and at the same time i think i'm overloaded by these people in our house who are hanging out for this barbecue so like we have a very real communication that's so good and it's the only way I can do it.

27:21And I think it's been based on, my wife has taught me everything, and therapy has taught me everything I know about how I do it. So I think it was a big, big, big part of it.

27:33Jon McLaughlin:I would think that would be really, really interesting, given your upbringing. And I'm just, you know, putting it through my own lens, of course, like, I have two daughters and I'm constantly kind of judging how we're doing in terms of like, like you're saying with Willa, like, I feel like I'm not seeing you enough. That makes me think like, I always sort of have an eye on like, am I spending enough time with my daughters? I could be with them all the time for the most part. I always wanted to be with them. So, but I'm judging that however consciously on i think what i'm used to from my upbringing you know what i mean like i always have that as sort of like maybe that's what everything is judged against to some degree i'm judging it against you know other families in our lives or whatever but i think a large part of what sort of satiates the question of like how am i doing for me is like well how does how does this compare to what my childhood was like, whether it be something I'm trying to emulate or something I'm trying to do the opposite of.

28:47Jon McLaughlin:And for you, I would imagine it would just be so interesting because you're kind of on your own. You're like, well, if she's living in the house right now, you're already in uncharted territory. Yeah, I'm telling you. You know what I mean? Yes. And there's an element, my wife often says to me, well, I don't think people understand that this is something you've never experienced. So, so the idea of loving someone, even if they do something you don't like, like that's brand new to me. I don't even understand it. So I, you know, I've been coming around to it, but to me, when I get real bent out of shape, I can say things like, well, what are we even like, who, like, let's just call it.

29:29You know what I mean? Like, this is like who needs this and like and and and she should go and let her do her thing and my wife will be like yeah so that's not how it works so like let me just let me clue you in to a couple things and uh because i adore my daughter and my daughter my wife is my center and like but i still come from a place where I would cut bait on anyone at any point very easily. It's something that I do sort of well. And so my wife, I constantly have to kind of like realign myself to what has paid me back and what's real and what's right. And so I just come from a cut bait place.

30:15And that's just not how real love actually works, surprisingly. And it's funny, I've been reading this book. I am not a religious person in any way, but I've been reading this book by this Franciscan monk named Richard Rohr, who's one of the... He's possibly one of the greatest minds I've encountered in my life. And he talks just about all that forgiveness and love, that there's like an irrationality that it's not a one for one that it's not based on um do they deserve this right like and that to me has just been transformative uh because it feels so off-putting to be giving somebody something that maybe i feel like they don't deserve right you know what i mean like yeah in the moment you know yeah but you know you know what I think is so profound in your story is that of course you work like that.

31:14Like I think any person that's trying to navigate through the life that you were given and you were given that life, that wasn't something you chose. That's how else would you operate? It's like, it's just street life. Like you're like, listen, for me to make it through the next day at this school with these kids who are all kind of at each other, I kind of have to be judicious in my decision-making because otherwise I'm going to get hurt or get my feelings hurt or feel whatever I feel. So I just have to day-to-day is like, this is how today goes. And so I think it makes a lot of sense. Like when you say that, I don't go like, how could you do that?

31:47I'm like, well, of course, that's how I would have done it. You know, you either, it's like to survive that kind of childhood, you have to be like that. So of course you grow up going, well, this is just how I rock. How else would I know to do this? But to just do that, you know, if something hurts you, you got to set it free and then you move on to the next thing. So it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. Well, I would imagine too,

32:09Jon McLaughlin:I could be totally off here, but I would imagine there would be the message that you would have onboarded early on is like, well, anybody can cut me loose. I deserve to be cut loose. Like I don't deserve to have like unconditional love. That would be a hard thing. I think it's maybe a hard thing for, anybody to really accept. But given up your childhood, I would think that would just be cemented. And then your life would then be a journey of trying to knock that loose and realize that you are deserving of unconditional love. Yeah, I think that's exactly... You're dead on. And I think that the joke is that I don't even think I knew what that was so I didn't have a free I didn't even know that unconditional love existed it didn't make it was like a new concept to me maybe as of 10 years ago and I think every day I find I'm reminded but there's this element of like the joke is is that my my mother like it that's the part that's so heartbreaking in these situations is that it's perpetuated by people who got the same treatment yeah and so so um but yeah there's an element of i would say one of my my biggest challenge but one of them is that is to realize that i'm worthwhile right and it's that's why we joke about like that show in san diego it's like i've spent my entire life building a life where i'm a dependent on other people's feedback which is i which is what we all are, but which is crazy.

33:51And that is in its own challenge. But also the reason that I'm so, that I do it so well in quotes is because it's literally the only way I knew how to do it. And I realized that most of the people I surrounded myself with in my young life that were peers were narcissists. And I realized this in my older life where I'll be like, God, man, my friend from height i'm still friends with all my friends and my most dearest friends have you know maybe half of them are like i'm like wow they've never asked me about and like like always looks out for like and you're always but i was constantly in the process of trying to like just get as much attention and as much praise as i could and it's like a bike a bike with a hole in the tire you like get it filled up and then you make it down the street and then it's like flat and then you got to like re-pump it up then you go another couple blocks and it's flat like that's my whole my whole life is the bike tire and it's so it's like and again we work it through it's not but it but all the things you guys have said have been dead on in terms of like all that stuff you guys are so what is it like when you have a daughter especially in those younger years where they really just love you yeah they're just kind of like you're the best and my gosh this is fun and we laugh and so is that that has to be a paradigm shift right Right.

35:13Or did that make sense as a dad? Were you kind of like, this actually is something I understand sort of at a nuclear level. It's funny. The easiest thing is when someone needs you. That's like your that's your place of like, oh, I got this. This is great. Yeah. Yeah, I know how this works. As you know, as everybody knows, that's apparent. Like, and the real challenge is when they start saying like, I don't need you. Yeah. And then you start going. And my response is always like, what the, you know, like, you know, in my mind or out loud, you know what I mean? It's just like, what do you mean? Well, then forget it.

35:51Let her do her own thing. Like, I don't care. She's almost 18. And my wife would be like, dude, zero to 60. Can you slow this down? And like, but that's really it. It's when somebody shows you, when they define a boundary and when they show you what they need and it doesn't coincide with what you think they need or what you need. That's just the real challenging churning place. So as you also, at 15, a young woman, we are in the thick of the churn and I am handling it. I would say I got about a 40%. The churn. The churn. I love that. You should do a parenting book over your daughter. Raising daughters, how to survive the churn, churn and burn.

36:36Churn and burn. So yeah, that's really the challenge. When she was a kid, I thought everything's sky too at that point, because everything is like promise and potential. And you're like, and when they start to get knocked shut by the world, which is heartbreaking. And then when they start to define themselves maybe incorrectly by what you think, correctly but but it's not what you thought i think that part of it is like a level of challenge

37:05Jon McLaughlin:that uh that's seismic as you know man when did because i i'm in the uh i feel like i'm in the thick of the churn i'm probably just on the outskirts of the churn with my oldest she's 12 she'll be 13 in here in like two months when did the churn start for you so my kid is the kind of kid who when we would love it i love the lean in it's like when when so she used to not want to she has problems with different clothing certain things and how they fit and and with the seam or what is uncomfortable yeah yeah i've literally taken her we took her to school naked once because she refused to put clothes on and she was defiant like this is what we're dealing with and then she got she relented sort of towards the end but we kind of said queen i'm gonna take you in the car we have to do this.

37:57So if you decide to strip off your clothes one more time, I just have to do this. I'm going to take you. And so that process had to happen where it's like, we had to show that like, you know, and then, and it sounds people can, the problem about talking about parenting was that everybody has an opinion and everybody thinks they're right. But like, this was a moment where it was like, all right, I can't show, we can't back down from this because she's six or whatever and she's literally like owning this moment and she can't own this moment so there were moments like that like we were sleep training her and all of a sudden i heard this knocking she was barely verbal or or verbal and she was she took found the heaviest object in her room and was smashing her way through the door like with like she had located she triangular she'd be like oh this end bookend is gonna be the thing and she's just like okay like bearing okay so i'm gonna go just left of it i mean i when i tell you that we're dealing with a individual who said to my my wife said i'm i'm the boss here and my kid goes no mama i'm the boss like like and she was like barely verbal like we're dealing with like i get why my parents were like let's send this one off like you know what i mean like let's get rid of this one get this brochure

39:15Jon McLaughlin:yeah yeah yeah isn't it great though like i'm so tracking with everything you're saying right now and and the trick is like a lot of these traits that are making your life so hard right now are so good and valuable i'm like i don't want you to lose this thing it i wish you would stop just for the next five years and then pick it right back up we can get to harvard pick that back up yeah yeah yeah there's a there's an element of people always say that and i've just started to accept it because it's so you really when i see other kids falling in line or trying to find their way through the hierarchy of a social structure and i see my kid kind of defiantly being her unique, weird self, I think I'm like, yeah, dude, we got this.

40:17And then sometimes it's like, I really wish she would just fall on. Like, I wish she would just do for just this 10 minute period. I wish she would just not be. And again, yeah, man, you want to be able to hold them back rather than push them forward, I think is what everybody always says. And so that's the thing I often think about. Yeah, it is. We haven't gotten into, we've not entered the churn yet. We have some, we see the clouds have gathered a little with the edge and we're like, oh, that's it. We've never seen that color gray before. And there's some like black clouds even behind that, but we're not quite there.

40:51But I think there is so much wisdom. There's a story that goes around my family a lot where my grandmother, who was just like the best, but my brother, who's the third of three. I'm the first. He was really the five. So you were the oldest? Oldest, yeah. Okay. And I know that's hard to believe. But so he sort of pitched a fit in front of my mom with my grandmother. And she was like the matriarch. And this is my mom's mother-in-law. And she loved her and revered her. But it was so embarrassing because mom was like, oh my gosh, Brad, I'm supposed to look like this mom that's got it together. And my grandmother said like, you know, Jane, this is the thing about that is you've got to remember that that same energy, if sort of like parented well and loved well and disciplined well, becomes the energy that gets him out of a lot.

41:38Like when somebody's drunk and wants him to jump in the car, hey, everybody's doing it. And he goes, I'm not getting in. Like he doesn't get in because that's how he is. It's just you've got to learn how to channel those energies and personalities into ways that, you know, are where they need to land. And that has always been such a North star for me because I think it's really easy in my worst moments to want to parent something out of a kid. A thousand percent. You know, but you can't. It's just, I mean, this is a Richard Warth thought, but like it's the shadow self of the good thing. Yes. You know, if you kill the shadow, you kill the good thing.

42:08You kill the self. That's exactly right. Yeah. And so how do you then as a parent go, okay, this is just, this is the bad version of that really good thing. Totally. How do we just quell the bad?

42:19Jon McLaughlin:And Matt, you said earlier, you know, it's tough talking about parenting because everybody has an opinion, which is definitely true. And it's tough because I, you know, it's 2025. I became a dad in 2012. Like, I've read parenting books. I've read a lot of parenting books. I don't know that I recommend reading parenting books, but, you know, I don't know that my dad ever read a parenting book. We just lost all of our sponsors on the podcast, by the way, in that one comment. Dave's texting me, Matt actually has a new book. But, you know, I think you can onboard too much of that kind of stuff. Because now as a parent, I'm like, I can hear the pretty solid argument for both sides.

43:06Jon McLaughlin:You know what I mean? It's like Brad's melting down and you're like, or your daughter, you know, is stripping her clothes off. And I can hear one side that says like, yeah, when, you know, you need to recognize when your child has reached their limit. Maybe they stay home from school that day, you know? And then the message they get is like, you know what, mom and dad, they knew when it was time to keep me home and I felt safe. Right. And then I can hear the other side that's like, no, no, no. they need to know hey you live in a world where you can sometimes maybe 10 percent of the time you got to kind of put everything else aside and do things that you don't want to do this is the reality of the world and it's your job to prepare them to live in the world you know you're not going to be around forever all that kind of stuff so it's like i can always hear both sides of the argument.

44:03Jon McLaughlin:And then at the end of the day, you just got to go with something. My wife always says, it's important to pick your battles. She has a couple great ones, which is like, you got to pick your battles. Is this the time that you want to fight this, or is this the time you want to sort of let it go? And I often default to her because I can become 1950s dad real quick and be like, you better get up and get and do your thing. And like, I walked twice up and down hills to school. You know, like, and again, I'm still, unlike 1950s dad, I'm incredibly, I articulate how I'm feeling as I'm feeling it, which so that she, there's no, so she doesn't feel lost and think doesn't understand what's going on.

44:43I'm very clear about what's going on. Wow, I love that. But the idea of picking your battles is super important. Then the other thing my wife always says is like, don't get on the ride. Like, get it, stay at the bottom of snacks. Oh, that's good. you know what i mean but like that's really good don't get on the roller coaster and it's like i'm the king of and she goes don't believe what she's telling you like like like what she's telling you general thought yeah she's like this is how i've been treating our relationship totally totally i only hear 30 of what you say because you just talk so much but you process constantly but no but like her her thing is like look she's experiencing this thing and it feels real to her you need to be the person who's actually lived a longer life and has perspective to be able to not buy into the story doesn't mean you don't have empathy for the story it doesn't mean don't support but like you don't you don't buy into it because if you buy into it then you're on the ride then you're in trouble and i'm and i'm the first one to be like why don't you push that kid off the roof you know if she's yeah if she's being like that pop her in the face yeah yeah yeah totally yeah yeah like just pop her in the face she'll shut up you know what i mean and my kid will be like, I can't punch a girl.

45:55And I'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Like, you know what I mean? Find someone that will. That's where there's definitely a couple of numbers. There's a system of a little bit of money, a little bit of money. You could get somebody to show up at the playground who looks like a child, but punches like an adult. You know, it's wild. Can I sing a quick chorus, a chorus idea for you? Well, no, actually I won't. You want to wait? Yeah. Yeah. You got stage fright all the time.

46:25Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, no, shoot. Okay. Listen, in the meantime, can we talk about how summer reveals everything about a man's wardrobe? Oh, great subject change. That is brutal. You know, you open the closet and it's just sad, wrinkled stuff. But right now, what you don't want is sad, wrinkled stuff. And a shirt you've had since 2014. Look, that's why we've been wearing quints. European linen pants and shirts. Breathable. Comfortable. Yes. The kind of thing that you throw on and immediately feel like you have your life together. I forget. I have clothes on, John. I can't. And I'm not going to apologize. Okay.

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48:17What a tagline. Looks like a child, but punches like an adult. That's going to be the name of this episode. Oh, my gosh. So let me ask you this. With your daughter, where is she on your music and your humor? Is she in the, oh, rolls her eyes now? Or is she like, no, my dad makes me laugh, and I like his music, I listen to his music? Where is she with that? Now, Matt, I want you to answer that,

48:38Jon McLaughlin:but I would like to set it up by quoting a tweet of yours. Oh, boy. You said, quote, apparently my daughter is at an age where it's embarrassing for her dad to moon her from the garage while the car backs down the driveway to take her to school. Unquote. That is an all-timer. Dude, that is an all-timer. That's a real, that's real. Hey, if she can be nude, you can be nude. That's what I, dude. Yeah. So I am a nude person. So like I am naked and I'll give, and my daughter will come do. I was the other day I was in the kitchen and she goes, I'm coming out to recycle something. I don't have any clothes on.

49:22Don't look. And I was like, okay, like all good. Like that's boundaries. I get that. Like, like she just wants to be naked to walk from her room to drop something in the recycling, then go back. And it's like, I'm the same guy where I'll be like, Hey queen, don't come out of your room. I'm totally naked. Like, you know what I mean? And like, because that's just, I am a weird, I'm a poop with the door open person. You know what I mean? Like I have no. You're wide open. Yeah, yeah. I have nothing. And I'm okay with people doing the same in my inner circle, although most of my inner circle is not that into it.

49:54So anyway, so I've learned. That's why you're friends, by the way. Yeah. There can't be more than one of you. You can't have a three. You can't have, it'll be like, yeah, it'd be like Monster Island around here. but so the thing with my daughter and my music is that she doesn't acknowledge it she has rarely acknowledged she certainly doesn't listen to it there might have been a moment where she listened to it and like a few songs that she likes but what I've learned about her is that the thing that she really likes about music is not the thing is that's my strong suit she's a humongous fan of melody in a way that like she naturally moves towards like um you know musicals do it certain songs have real where melody is the strong part of the thing and so for her i just don't think my music is her kind of music which again i'm so into that like i'm so into because we make these kids but they're not our they're not us they are like their own planets and so for me the fact that she's like, likes maybe two of my songs or four of my songs, I'm into it.

51:01Cause I don't, you know, it's no currency to me, but then as she gets older, I've seen her occasionally use, it's gone back and forth. Occasionally say to me, Oh, a friend of mine at school is a fan of your songs. And I'll be like, how do they know? You know, or she'll wear a shirt. So sometimes she uses it. She doesn't use it as like a bragging thing, but like, it's definitely something that I think she thinks is cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I, it is. So part of me thinks like, wow, that seems logical, you know? But she's never used it as a, it is not a currency in any way. What about your humor?

51:41Where is she with that? I think that she says occasionally like, well, I'm kind of, I'm funny because, like she'll say something. I'll be like, dude, that's hilarious. And she'll be like, yeah, I get my humor from you. or whatever, you know, so, so there's elements of that, that I think that, again, she relates to, and I think it makes her proud. And it also, it strengthens the bond between all of us, because there's also things that, you know, mama is this way, I'm this way. But I'm also the, the, because I didn't carry her in my body, and because I didn't push her out of my, you know, I did so little in the process of making a baby that I think there's a natural distance being a dad.

52:26And we don't really, when there's a unit, at least in this group, my wife is the front line. She's the smartest in this particular field in many. And she's also the one that we kind of both go to. And so I think I have a little bit of mystery in and of myself anyway, because I'm gone on tour. I do this thing. So I think my kid is impressed by it a little bit, but never really talks about it. I brought her to see the Def Leppard guys were in town. I was like, Bubba, you should come see this show. And she's like, they're doing Wordle with headphones on listening to another show while we're standing in the Def Leppard.

53:04But I think to her, it was fun that she could just walk out with a pass and do her thing. So there are elements of it that are cool. The fact that there was a long time, I won't go into it, but there was a Taylor Swift thing that I had with a bunch of her fans and myself and Taylor, and it wasn't really involved. But anyway, and then Taylor had this resurgence amongst her peers. And my daughter is not a big fan of Taylor or Olivia Rodrigo, or there's just, she doesn't like the pop thing. But when these kids would be pro Taylor, because there's sort of a sycophantic love of her in a way that is like fundamental for these kids my daughter would sort of like proudly be like well my dad you know got into a fight with a bunch of her fans you know whatever happened and and so i think that was a badge of honor in a weird way for her so she's not unaware of it she's painfully aware of all of it but we don't use long answer she doesn't see it as currency yeah yeah it is it is interesting i played at this thing this weekend this camp thing this weekend and it's really like my kids it's interesting seeing it makes me feel like the king of the world but when they sort of see me perform and then their friends are kind of like yeah that's pretty cool it's like man my stock just takes a couple of ticks up and i can't lie in saying how good it feels you know that they're not like my kids like me they really i mean there is some of that but it's just more like man to have your kid like be proud of you is just the it is a narcotic man it is it's crazy it's insane yeah and i think i just didn't clock that as a young dad i was like oh it's gonna be great but man and i doubt that ever changes but man when i get like a little hit of that every now and then it is unbelievable how much it i'll just like i walk about a foot taller you know just that feeling of like oh my god you really think i'm cool i'm kind of cool and even in the funny thing with the is it's it's not even always because i'm cool it's because i know somebody cool oh that i'll take either of those i'll take either one is great with me uh but just the feeling of them you know kind of going it's cool okay so music we gotta talk music man this is this is john i just want to john john did you do you feel the same like is there there are elements of when you play and you're like all that stuff does that ring true as well oh yeah for sure i mean especially

55:26Jon McLaughlin:as we are in the churn anything that happens in the churn it's like playing a video game and like oh on the churn level all the coins are worth a million you know what i mean that is incredible that's exactly it that's the best and my my girls both are are into playing the piano and they want to learn i haven't figured out how how to they're not in lessons yet so they're not taking the track that I took where every Thursday I go learn how to read music. So I'm just teaching them things. They'll be like, there's this song, a lot of times it's from a musical or something like that, and they want to learn how to play it.

56:07Jon McLaughlin:So it's perfect for me because I may be stunting them developmentally in their musical careers, but I'm like, you have to go through me. I'm the gatekeeper. if you want to learn how to play this song you're going to have to spend 45 minutes with me today and I get to like you know you play this little bit and then they play it and I get to like touch their little hands on the keys you know I'm crying the whole time so yeah really any piano playing should be accompanied with a healthy amount of tears that was really Mozart's big sort of one of his paradigms so here's I'm literally stealing John's question though John don't get mad at me because I just want to say hey John I can feel you coming in Okay, so John put this down, so all credit to John here.

56:54But I'm dying to know this too, and I think it launches us well in this music part. So I'm going to read it verbatim because John writes really good questions. You're a musician, but that, of course, but that's, of course, a larger term that encompasses a songwriter, lyricist, entertainer, guitar player, singer, stand-up comedian. What is the hierarchy of those? And I want to say this really quick before I say that, or you answer that. When I was earlier in my career, I had so many people that would see me live. go dude you and matt nathanson they were like you two guys and i always thought it was so cool and interesting because i was always like what is that and ingrid i'd get a lot of you know with her humor um but like i just always remember i felt this weird sort of like connection with you because i was like oh there's somebody that's that's really like goes hard on the humor like really leans into that um like i was doing and you know still honestly do but like when you but john's question i think is so good how do you think about those so first of all i had the same thought about us is that people would say like well dave barnes is and it's like yeah we are very like because i think you're one of the funniest people you did a a promo thing for a record of yours years ago that was one of the funniest things I've ever seen anyone do in my life like you're just you you are now you are gifted in many ways well same but you're but your your your humor is just exceptional and like one of your strongest gifts and so I think to me is the hierarchy what I think it is or what I think natural what naturally it is what do you

58:37Jon McLaughlin:mean like is it because i think i would frame it as like if somebody came back to you but after a show and they were like man your voice so great you're a really great singer it's like for some musicians that would be like that's the pinnacle that's what i'm going for the whole time thank you for some it'd be like oh that's like sixth on my list okay i'd rather they compliment me on my lyrics or my melody or whatever yep So part of the joke of all of it is that whatever is number one becomes number two behind number two because I want the thing that I don't get to be the thing that I get.

59:22So when people say to me, your lyrics really move me, like that is gratifying because I spend a lot of time on lyrics. So and I really love them. I love them. Yeah. Like I just think it's so fun. And when they work, it works outside of me, but I get to be there kind of, as you know, with all this, you're moving the pieces. Then all of a sudden something just lightning and you're like, whoa. So it works through you. So lyric is probably the thing that people say. First and foremost, people say that you're amazing, hilarious on stage. That thing is number one. Lyrics are number two. And I think what I've always wanted is songwriting to be number one, where somebody says, your songs are so great.

1:00:04But there's an element of great songwriting takes such a level of...

1:00:18It takes natural talent, but in order to get it, it takes discipline and it takes a relentless going at something. And I would say that only in my later years have I realized that. And the comedy thing comes so naturally, the being thing comes so naturally that I don't have to work at it. And it's almost like I get by on it a little bit. You know what I mean? like I can kind of get on stage. I don't have to think too much. I can just kind of be up there and be funny and people laugh and I'll play my song and the song. And so I just sort of feel like I would love the song to be number one. And I think, especially after like watching that Billy Joel documentary.

1:00:59Oh man. I mean, he is somebody who's so naturally gifted and a genius on a certain level with his gift of melody and chords.

1:01:08Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. he still worked so violently hard to make those songs work that I just think I haven't applied the level of my need for feedback is such that it's so strong that I get exhausted in the process of being by myself with the song. When you hear Tom Petty talk about it, Tom Petty would talk about writing The Waiting and it took him three months or whatever, but it was three months of Tom Petty sitting at a guitar working on the waiting. And so, but I'm a person who needs feedback. And so I oftentimes will bail on that process and I don't have the patience for it. And as I get older, I think, I think, I think I should, I saw a sign of the times the other night, right?

1:01:51In IMAX. So Prince did a 1987, he put out sign of the times and there was a concert movie that went along with it. And I've, it's one of my favorite concert movies and the soundtrack of it is one of my favorite musical experiences. and not the album itself, but the actual audio from the movie. And we took a friend who'd never seen it and watching Prince on stage, all of a sudden it clicked. And I was like, oh man, I have so much more work to do. And I have so much harder to work at this. And so maybe by the time I die, the people will say, come back and be like, man, that song you played was exceptional.

1:02:30That would be what I'd like, but it's pretty much, boy, you're really hilarious. hilarious that it's this is this is my struggle with this i feel like and this is just me being really vulnerable i think when i started to play music i i wasn't good at music like i was a drummer that started to sing because i started writing songs and friends were kind enough to be like hey these songs are pretty good and i was like well i guess i gotta go sing them so i would go play shows and i would be so unbelievably nervous that i would just start talking and because like you you know john's hysterical too um thanks that was just waiting for when you're gonna cut me in on that proof is in the pudding right there um but it would calm me down and so i got and so shows started to be like 40 60 you know talking singing and it really like i started to get this rep where people were like dude you got to go to the shows the songs are great he's so funny and it really bothered me because i was like i don't want to be the funny guy i want to be like a really great artist that is also funny.

1:03:32And so for like a couple of years, I just didn't talk much because I was just like, you know, this is not, I'm, you know, I'm more than just pretty. It was sort of that thing. And so I sort of woke up one day and was like, I don't know if my manager, somebody was kind of like, what are you doing? And I was like, man, I just want people to take my music seriously, like so badly. And then I realized I was like, well, no, but that's when when you're performing, you just want to be who you are, whatever that is. Right. And so then I brought the humor back and it's been, it's one of my favorite things, but I think what bothers it still to this day.

1:04:10And every now and then somebody will catch it is I'll do a show and they'll go, my gosh, you're funny. And then they'll go, but I mean, obviously we love the tunes there, you know, we love your voice, but man, and I think there's just something I've thought about this way too much, but I wonder if you relate to this. I think there's something about humor that when something is really, really funny, it's hard to beat that. You know, I was laughing with Rector about this. He's like, let me tell you something. Music is never going to beat a funny minute. Like a song, a three and a half minute great song is never going to beat a funny minute.

1:04:43And I think there's something really profoundly true about that because I think endorphins, I think all the things that happen with humor, how unexpected it is, how there's so much you're engaged in the visual humor, the, you know, that, that, that it's hard, I think for, for those of us. And I mean, all three of us things, it can be hard as a performer because you're like, man, I'm kind of fighting my own self a little bit here, because especially if you really are funny, which I think all three of us are like really genuine gifted, you really are just funny. Like all three of us can just be funny.

1:05:12I don't have to think about I'm just funny. It's just a blessing. But man, when you're trying to do something else too, too. Sometimes I'm like, God, I wonder if McCartney had been this funny, if even he would have been like, God, it's Blackbird. Come on. So here's the joke of this, is that John Lennon was this funny. Yeah. And he didn't. So I think the thing that the three of us share, many things that we share, but being honest is sort of really important to us, representing ourselves as honestly as we can. And I think music and rock and roll, that's really frowned upon because what you're trying to do is like, like Bono is very funny as well.

1:05:58And his relationship with you too is one of a long time being funny with each other, saying things that he never says on stage, like never shows that part of himself. And so we just come from a different place which is like what's important to us as being hyper versions of ourselves maybe on stage yeah yeah and so that's an uncool place to be it just is because yeah because paul simon i read this article recently where he was talking about dylan and he said yeah well dylan is cool but dylan i'll try and find the quote but it was like but yeah and i was never cool because there's a hiding when you're cool like you're you're holding back when you're trying to be cool you're you're curating wow geez louise and there's like some level of apathy that you have to display there's it's funny it feels like more work to me yeah it's it it feels like to me it's just too much work it's like lying yeah right like yeah like lying is is fine but then you have to keep the lie up then you can't be yourself then you're uncomfortable i don't want to be uncomfortable.

1:07:08And it's the same on stage. And it's the same, like what you said, Dave, about, well, I would play and I would do it as much for me as I would for everybody else is like, well, how can I get comfortable? Well, I can just talk. That's what I'm going to do. And when I talk, then I feel comfortable, then we can do this thing. But so we just, and earnestness in the way that we all make music is like just not a thing that anybody, people want us to be romantic or they want us to be a thing. And we kind of aren't in that category. Well, you know, and I think too, I mean, forgive me, I don't mean to over compliment, but I think this is true.

1:07:45I think when you are in that, and I would really, I really believe this about the three of us, I really do, because John is absolutely one of my funniest friends. And I have a lot of funny friends. But I think when you are really in that maybe 10 % funny, like of the funniest people may be alive. Do you know what I mean? Like, I know that sounds like a heavy thing to say, but when you just know funny people, like I have friends that I'm like, that guy, that girl, they're just funny. They're just, God just went boop, funny. And I think like you're in that, I think John's in that, I think I'm in that.

1:08:16It's just, it just makes being an artist really tricky because you're, you already kind of have a little bit of a superpower and you're trying to get another superpower that I think even at its best still doesn't really compete with your first one just because of the way our brains work about humor. You know what I mean? It's like, and I really do laugh because I'm like, to your point about Lennon, you know, it's like if he had really put that out more, if he had really been like, hey, you guys don't, if people would have been like, gosh, I mean, I love, you know, Strawberry Fields, but gosh, have you heard him just do a bit?

1:08:48Or have you heard him do his 30 minutes that he has? And so I think it calms me down sometimes realize like it's a huge blessing and a curse. It's as much as frustrating as it's also people like to come see me because of it too. And so I think when I kind of got over that, it was a huge moment for me of going, this is great. Like, don't, there's no need to sort of poo poo on this whole thing, you know? Yeah. I think being yourself is such a important, uh, having your own fingerprint is the crucial part of what we do. And, and it's funny, like growing up in Massachusetts, everybody is funnier than most of the comedians I've ever seen.

1:09:24So just like my buddy Cushman is funnier than any comedian that isn't from Boston. And so people say, you should go into comedy. And what I, like you were talking about, but like what it comes down to is like, we get to do this weird combination of all the things. Yeah, because real comedy, like when you watch a Dave Chappelle bit, or there's a mastery there that's just as masterful as Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell or Paul Simon. And like, so we're not really comedians. We're more like entertainers and songwriters. That's right. But it's an interesting thing. And I always feel like, well, maybe I'm a, I think my biggest sadness is like, maybe I'm a jack of all trades and a master of none, right?

1:10:11Like maybe I'm kind of funny, kind of a good writer, kind of a good singer, but I'm not Billy Joel or I'm not Bob Dylan or I'm not Dave Chappelle or I'm not, you know. So the snipers are there no matter what. I just think. That's so true. We'll find a way to ruin the joy. Well, you know, I think the thing that's funny to me is every now and then, and this is to do exactly your point, Matt, it's like I'll do a show with somebody that I've never done a show with or, you know, do a run with or whatever, openers or I'm open or whatever, And people will be like, dude, I am so envious of your ability to be yourself on stage and make people laugh.

1:10:52And it'll be just some unbelievably gifted singer. And I'm like, bro, like, but to your point, it's like there's always some like, if I could just have a little, you know, more of whatever those are. Here's the Paul Simon quote. I found it, by the way. It says, so Dylan, everything he sings has two meanings. He's telling you the truth and making fun of you at the same time. He goes, I sound sincere every time. Rock and roll has a lot to do with image. If that's not your strength, people find fault with the work. He added that the constant comparisons between he and Dylan were frustrating. I usually come in second.

1:11:32I don't like coming in second. And it's like, this is Paul Simon. Yeah. Like talking about, it's sort of like, it's a never ending thing. and these are geniuses it's not like we're talking about a band like you too my favorite band of all time very average bunch of human beings doing extraordinary things which is my favorite kind of band yes yes not led zeppelin not extraordinary people doing extraordinary but like pretty average characters like finding their way to make to channel the god essentially through themselves right yes and so to me um you can pull apart anybody you can pull apart bono you can pull apart youtube's best song by being like it's not really a song if you played with it without you by yourself you'd be like it does it doesn't hold a candle to the boxer and it's like yeah yeah but so there's enough room for all of us is what i'm getting at you know what i mean

1:12:23Jon McLaughlin:don't you think though that that's why humor is so powerful because like you're saying you can pull apart anybody you can find somebody who's like i never got onto the beatles you know like I think the world has objectively said the Beatles are the greatest, but they don't like them. A laugh, though, that is objective. There might be one guy in the audience that's not laughing or whatever, but all that reaction that you got from the crowd, that night in San Diego that I talked about earlier, all of that is involuntary, which is honesty. It's like if you're up on stage asking a question, do you like me?

1:13:10Jon McLaughlin:Am I worth something? You just got an answer. It's why comedians are the bravest, because we get to go up under the guise of playing songs, right yeah and then we get to throw in funny stuff sure comedians go up with no guitar no songs they're going up to like cold turn these people around and when they do it it's masterful and so yeah i do agree that john i think when people laugh when people cry but really when people laugh there's an element of um guard downness which i'm sure on some level is all what we're talking about you know for ourselves but also for other people and the thing that people recognize when they see it which is wow you're really guard down up there you know what i mean and it's like and it's like yeah uh-huh and and because to us as humans that's what we that's the thing that we really need in order to sort of like move through the world you know yeah yeah yeah okay so last question uh and then we have a speed round so buckle up man oh boy buckle yeah buckle up i don't know how they do speed rounds over in the west but here they're serious um okay i wanted to and you said you too So I just want to say this really quickly and ask this question.

1:14:22So one of the things I also love, I love so much about your discography, is the Def Leppard record, is the U2. I just think, you know, I just did this in October two years ago, put out a record of I'd listened to Beatles for a whole year and then wrote an album after just listening to it. And I just love, I was telling John as we were getting ready for the episode, we spent about six hours just kind of praying, fasting, and listening to music. And, you know, we were just talking about how much I just love in your music that there really is so much adventure. There's so much, like you have songs that, again, I feel like every record you put out, there's something interesting about it, which I think is such a huge marker to hit, in my opinion, for artistry, especially after so many years of putting music out.

1:15:11But I love that there's a humility in going, hey, this is also a music I like, and I just want to put these songs out even though I didn't write them. like what is the impetus for that like what makes you want to do that i think it's so great yeah so i always say the only god i know is music right it's like it really is my it saved my life it continues to save my life and it's i love it independent of the individuals who make it i love it in a way that it is so essential to my every minute and and and it's been daunting to be honest because when you're a nerd for something in such a strong way creating it and like you said about like i don't think i'm particularly talented i just have a will and i refuse to stop and i just wanted so badly to do this thing that i loved so much that like i just forced my way through it my daughter the other day who said i listened to your first record on Spotify the other day and I go, Oh, she goes, you're brave.

1:16:14Right. Like, cause, cause it's like the worst, it's the worst. It's the actual work. And, and, you know, and, but to me, I was finally getting to like, get in it. You know what I mean? Like I was doing the thing. Yeah. You were doing the thing. Yeah. And so, so for me, music is everything. I mean, now my, my relationship with my family is actually everything, but, but music is the thing. And so for me, I'm daunted by how great things are. So when I'm writing something, I'll go, well, Paul Simon did that, or Joni did that, or Prince did that. Well, this isn't good enough. Like, and so you have to fight those.

1:16:51It's funny how the thing that you love so much turns on you a little bit and starts to like find its way. But so really for me, I would spend all my time every day playing other people's songs playing my songs working on songs and i do and so the the the covers records are like offshoots of that like today this morning i woke up at about four and i was just like sitting on the couch and i was figuring out sometimes it snows in april by prince which is a song on parade last song and it's got these weird chords and i was just thinking like if i can just chop wood and carry water on on playing guitar and melodies for the rest of my life.

1:17:29By the end, maybe I'll be somewhere in the ballpark of my heroes. Do you know what I mean? And I just, every day, Moon River, what a masterful song. And the other day I was figuring out the chords against the melody and I was just, I could have done it. My wife is so tolerant of watching music documentaries. I mean, that's, she'll be like, what do you want to watch tonight? A movie with a plot? And I was like, no, how about we watch the making of, you know, Phil Collins, no jacket required and and she hangs with it because like she's the best and she loves it by the way but like she'll often be like okay let's tap out on that can we watch like an actual story yeah yeah and i read i read fiction books but i'm reading books on songwriting or biographies about musicians i just worship music i mean and so for me paying tribute to it's just an joy it's such a joy yeah that is i mean i can't tell you how much i relate to that you know it's crazy about what we do for a living too is that not everybody feels like that and that's okay they don't need to like a baseball player all-star mvp baseball player doesn't have to love baseball he's just good at it and but i think for me i've been amazed as i get older i'm like i love this like i'm exactly like you matt like i i want to know everything i can about everything and how many what why did they do that court and that's oh that's weird they didn't do that on the bridge they didn't know they did it twice and you know whatever i'm like i'm just and it gets worse the older I get it's not better it's not like I'm more satiated it's like I've just unearthed more realms that I haven't seen before you know via genres or whatever um I think that's I love

1:19:01Jon McLaughlin:that I really do I mean I for me personally I always feel that level of um inspiration and excitement around classical music and I have times where I feel it with kind of the music that I do on my pop stuff. But I can fall out of that kind of vibe, you know what I mean? And maybe it's because of my true love for classical music that pulls me out of it. But for me, it takes work to stay in that where I can't wait to get back here in the morning to just come up with something. There's a part of me that's like, or I could just play some Chopin because he already wrote it. He already did it. He already did it.

1:19:54Jon McLaughlin:Let's just celebrate it. He already did it. That's a gift, I think, to have that level of love. It's a real joy and, yeah, crazy. Yeah, okay. So speed round, Matt. Speaking of joy. Speaking of joy. Here we go. Bring it, bring it. Okay. You going to go first? Here we go. Yeah, I'm going first. No, you go first. All right. I've been talking a lot. I'll go first. So I think... Just answer. Just answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17. Boxer briefs. Nope. Done. All right. As someone who loves music like you do, this is very apropos, do you have a favorite album of all time? Octung Baby. Oh, wow. That was fast.

1:20:35That's a good one. I remember getting that. I wasn't a U2 guy growing up, but I remember buying that in college at a used CD store and just kind of being like, because I was like, that's three bucks. I'll check it out. and being like, oh, I have slept on this band maybe a little more than I knew. Because I kind of knew them as like, you know, like the streets have, I knew that. But that record for me was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's more to this than I had suspected. And I'll go quick because it's a lightning round. But the night that record came out, I waited in line at Rhino Records in Claremont, where I went to college with my buddy Jonah.

1:21:13And we waited in line at midnight when they reopened the doors and they sold it. Oh, I love that. And then we went back to his apartment and listened to that record over and over until dawn. Like, just being stunned. I remember calling my wife, who was my lady friend at the time, and being like, I think I'm going to stay here just listening to this record. Is that cool? And she was like, yeah, that's cool. And we listened until dawn came. And I was like, it was changed forever.

1:21:38Jon McLaughlin:It makes me feel like such an old man. But I hope that whoever is as old as you were in that memory now, I hope they have some form of that. That my kid does. My kid will sometimes go on night drives, which is when she really opens up talks to me. She'll be like, can we go on a night drive? And what that means is we just drive around San Francisco. Yeah. And she plays me songs. And then she'll talk about how she's feeling in the process. and I'm just there to kind of take it. And she'll be like, can I play you a part I really like in this musical? I'm like, yes. And she'll play me this clip and she'll kind of get emotional even while doing it and start to maybe cry and be like, well, it's a really amazing, they're all at the lip of the stage and they're all, and what it's about is they've persecuted this person for being Jewish and Carousel was the musical reverend.

1:22:31And she's singing this part and this thing. And it's like, so they feel it the same way we do. It's just the delivery system, maybe slightly I can't imagine how cool driving around San Francisco at night with your kid listening to music. That is like unbelievable. That feels like a gift. Yeah. When that happens, it's like. I'm going to take that trip and just try to set my kids up. Before we go to bed, anybody who just want to drive the rental van around and, I don't know, listen to some Stevie Wonder. What's your favorite thought?

1:23:01Jon McLaughlin:Enterprise.com. That's right. So good. Okay. Okay. If you could have dinner with four people, who are they? Alive or dead? richard roar for sure um bono oh this is a tough one um oh i'm gonna have to i can't do this fast i don't know um i uh let me think about it uh while we i'll get back to you all right you can circle back in the meantime you got one last show to play where do you play oh um i'm terrible at speed rounds uh i would say

1:23:46that sound how's how's the last show ever to play where do i play it i would love to do it at like um who knows davy's symphony hall here in san francisco it's a beautiful space yep yeah yep uh okay here's a best worst and we love these john and i love these we especially love the worst this is like we really yeah but what's your best on stage moment oh boy yeah you guys want fast uh best on stage moment i can tell you my i've had some worst i mean that's the next question so we'll just come yeah i can feel it yeah next uh well so give me an example of like what's give me an answer for you like what's like a sweet like Like, you know, I don't know, like something when you think about you're like, God, that was what a night.

1:24:33What a moment that was. How cool that was. I've had a couple of really cool moments singing with my heroes, whether it be singing with Indigo Girls and doing Michael Stipes part on Kid Fears or getting on stage with Sammy Hagar and Monaghan and doing like a little help from my friends. That was really fun. Or like there have been moments like that where I can't believe I'm kind of arm in arm with my heroes doing a thing. The fact that Emily Salyers is a friend of mine. Oh, it's one of the greatest. It's still one of the coolest things in the world. One of the coolest things that I've ever, that I own is I asked her and she so kindly sent the lyrics to, I think it was, I can't remember.

1:25:23which one it is in the front room but she wrote out uh uh uh language of the kiss maybe that's a great for annie's 40th and just wrote it out and said it to me i was like this is maybe my favorite possession yeah i mean dude they were they're it she's the goat man yeah nobody touches her lyrics to me so yeah so i would say doing that kind of thing was probably the highlight those kind of moments where yeah and there's been a handful yeah what about worst so many i mean i've gotten into fights on stage i've gotten into serious fights oh yeah like oh yeah i almost got killed in colorado on tour with maroon 5 and and uh oar at this outdoor about 7 000 people and someone was flipping me off from the back and i said why don't you stop i said why don't you stop being such a you know and come up here if you got a problem and we and uh i used to do this all the time i would just react i was a reactionary person i almost beat up the monitor guy in boston who tried to teach me a lesson i dragged all my stuff over and i said if are you trying to teach me and i'm saying it without swears but i said are you trying to teach me i said maybe i'll pull you over this desk and teach you you know like that kind of was not paradise rock club was it no it was at a different but it was the similar idea same guy yeah they got him they got him out of there and then uh but in i jumped off stage to fight these two guys and they were marines and I didn't see it until I had jumped off stage.

1:26:49And I remember seeing them running towards me. And I was like, I think I'm going to get half a shot in before they beat me senseless. And I was like, okay, I mean, here we go. And I'm gearing up and they come and they're just as they're within fighting range. They're literally running, drinking beers as they're running. And, and they're like, they were so happy to kill me. And, and, and they, luckily the tour manager of OAR who looks like Kerry King from Slayer and one of the guys from the I see them come running and they catch them just as they're at me take them down pull them out throw them out I get on stage the crowd is roars like I'd just beaten them up so much so that years later I saw Adam Levine out and about and he goes do you remember when you beat those guys up in Denver like it was one of those moments and it was in at the time it was like a fun story in retrospect it's one of my least favorite i have a ton of those like like yelling at somebody from the that gets in the way of the process and you know that kind of stuff i have a lot of moments where i was so in the moment and pulled out of the moment that i got heated that i don't i'm not proud of how do you how how do you recover from that on stage like how do you get the show back on i think it's all adrenaline so it just gets washed through but like when i used to tour with OAR or tour by myself, toured with John Doe from the band X.

1:28:13I would get into fights all the time. And it was like, and it's just part of the, and then you move through it. And then the anger gets, my wife reminded me of this. This is not a quick answer, but like in college, I did a talent show that I ended up winning, which in the middle of one of my songs, someone threw a penny at me. It was at, I went to a school with five different colleges and there was one college that was kind of like a little bit poly, like, or, uh, they were kind of the uncool. They were the jockey, not nice dudes. That was kind of the thing in this school. Anyway, so I play this thing and someone throws a penny at me and I stopped the set and I threatened, I said, if you have a problem, come up on stage.

1:28:54And the crowd roared, I finished my song and I ended up winning the talent show, not on talent, but because I'd had this moment of sort of like confronting somebody. So I have a lot of those moments that I'm not proud of, just sort of getting into fights with people.

1:29:08Jon McLaughlin:It makes for great stories, though. It certainly does. So that's the long answer. But yeah, playing with my heroes and then getting into fights with people I don't know. Those are definitely the highs and the lows. When I'm picturing those two Marines coming at you, guzzling the beers as they're running, I'm picturing them, ironically, with Matt Nathanson shirts on. yeah yeah yeah they definitely their deep their deep hatred is from their deep love as it always is as it always is as it always is okay we got two more i'll do the next one so on this this new album if you could stop the whole world and have them listen to one track on this new album that you put out this year what song would it be whitney houston's national anthem god that song is so cool i mean you know that that was the first one that i played because i'm like i have to play this song what is this title that's a it's a fun that's a and then amy and emily sing on it that's great oh i that was like dude that's like it was the highlight of my life that's what i'm saying matt it's like who thinks of how cool that freaking song i was like guy he's still doing it it's wonderful you're red i want to scrape his eyes out on a picture of him um okay final final question if you wrote a book on being a father what would it be called there's a big big push for the churn uh big push we're seeing a lot of data so i have this autobiography title that i don't think fits which is humans they're everywhere that's gonna be but i don't think that can fit for the kid but maybe you know what i mean like uh yeah parenting like uh yeah like um yeah i i'd say like um i don't oh my god these are good questions i wish i had thought about it maybe the churn or uh yeah what what are your titles maybe that'll help oh we don't we don't yeah we don't answer that question we don't do this yeah this is why we're on this side of it man oh my god But yeah, like, yeah, riding the, please pet, but do not ride the horse.

1:31:20That is one of my favorite of all time. You pulled it out. You stuck the landing at the end there, man. And then, and in terms of, because I wanted to give you, I want to finish this because I'm a completist. I would say Chimamanda Ngoziadichia, who's this author who I just think is fantastic. She wrote a book called Half a Yellow Sun that blew my mind. She wrote a book called Americana, which I liked. But she's an incredibly, incredibly thoughtful and intelligent person. And it's pretty amazing. I'd like her, Richard Rohr. I'm dead or alive. I would love to have. Oh, I got to get this. So Richard Rohr, Bono, Chimamana Ngochi Adichia.

1:32:06Maybe the Dalai Lama, but everybody would say that. I love you looking at your bookshelf. And maybe George Saunders, who I also think is painfully intelligent. Painfully intelligent. And then... Two things no one's ever accused me of. Brian Eno. Oh, that's a good one. Oh, that would be great. And David Byrne. I jettisoned George Saunders for David Byrne. David Byrne, Brian Eno, Chimamanda Ngochiadichia, whose name I think I'm butchering, and Richard roar and then bono can be there too just because he'll come in for a few minutes yeah yeah yeah he can't he can't talk the whole time though no yeah yeah oh my gosh could you imagine he would be able to he would explode oh he'd just be he'd shake it like a reactor like before it break before saint helens erupted dude thank you anything you want to push before we we let you go any any new stuff happening any any shows coming up any no i think i'm just working on new stuff so i'm chilling it's great i love you guys i so appreciate you thank y 'all thank you for doing this this was long overdue oh you guys are my heroes and come hang in nashville man i will next time i'm there for sure i will come and we will go make fun of ourselves thank you i was i was so excited dude much love thanks for doing this

1:33:38Good energy in. Good energy out.

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