Riding the Pine for the Spirit with Jamie Winship

24:28And I'm like, I know. He goes, the one you let go the other night. I'm like, how many people do you think I let go? Really? Honestly, do you think you're like one of a hundred that I don't know? I said, you're the only one I've ever done that to. I get, yeah, I know who you are. Anyway, he said, he said to me, I know you did that because God told you to do that. I know that. And he said, and so I know that God was giving me a chance and I'm not going to let it go. And so I want to thank you for what you did. And I said, you don't have to, you don't have to do it. Just don't do anything wrong. So I get in trouble.

25:04And he said, no, I want to thank you. He said, he said, there's a there's a black Porsche that's coming going to come through the intersection at midnight tomorrow. He said, stop it. Stop that car and search it. And I said, I can't I'm suspended. I can't go. I can't go out. He said, get someone to stop that car. And so and then he hung up. And so I got my partner and he went out there. We staked out the intersection i couldn't do anything just observe but i'm just imagining you bringing your desk out there to the intersection yeah or like a yeah or a camera or something but this is the 80s you know we don't have any of that stuff and uh and so my partner stopped the car and they searched in and it was loaded with drugs loaded down in drugs it was a huge arrest and um and then you know so then the narcotics guys came in you know like how did you who was your informant on this how'd you get this guy and i wouldn't tell him and then my captain came to me and he said is that your was that your guy and i said it was and he goes this could have been a really good idea but um so me and that guy so he took me off suspension and then me and that guy worked together

26:15Jon McLaughlin:for a year together me and him just doing stuff like that oh we we we made arrests from boston to Miami in cases. He made me famous. Did you guys know this guy? Like, was he kind of someone you had had your eye on at all? Never, never. So, what turned out was he's never been arrested before. He was on nobody's radar. Wow. And his wife was in law school. Yeah. Everything he said was true. Everything he said was true. And so, we worked for a year together and did all kinds of search warrants and and his thing was god gave me a gave me a chance to take you know god i don't have to take care of myself god can take care of me and then i want to help restore what's gone wrong in my neighborhood my community and we became pretty tight friends but i didn't ever really want to know anything about him because everyone was calling me dea everyone was calling me saying who who's your lead on this who's your ci and i just wouldn't tell him and the only one that knew was my captain was who he was and so um we did that for a year and then it got we got into a situation that was just way too dangerous and i told him we backed out of it actually i said no we're not going to do this one nope i said because these that this level of people that we're messing with now we need like the federal authorities to do this kind of thing and they're these people will find you and kill you yeah they might kill me but they will definitely kill you and it's not worth it.

27:44This is not worth it. So he was really disappointed because we had become pretty close. We had so many interesting conversations together, but I didn't want to know him. I really avoided knowing him for lots of reasons. And so anyway, when it was all over, I said, I don't want to talk to you anymore. We're going to end this and we're not going to have any more contact, but I want to meet one more time with you. And he said, okay. And so then I went to my captain and I, and it was almost like a year. It was like, it was back to Christmas the next year. And, and I went, met with my captain and I said, this guy, I'm not, he's not going to work with us anymore.

28:19I'm going to release him. I'm going to forget it. You know, this isn't worth it. And my captain understood that part. And I said, but I think the police department should pay his wife's tuition, law school tuition, all of it, because they're, they're poor and they live in, you know, subsidized housing and all that stuff. I said, we ought to at least thank him for what he's done. And I said, we should pay his wife's whole tuition. And he said, we don't do that stuff. And I said, well, why can't we? Why not? He said, well, I said, let me go to Crime Solvers back in the day. They give$1 ,000 for every conviction or whatever.

28:53I said, we've been doing this for a year. I said, let me into them. And he goes, the police can't interact with those guys. And I said, you can get me in the meeting. Get me in the meeting with them and I'll pitch it. And so he, my captain, did it. He kind of went all around. And they agreed to meet with me. And so I went in there. And I had charts of everything we had done, me and this guy together. And I said, this one guy did this. And I said, you guys are sleeping better at night because of what he did. And his wife's in law school. And she has a huge debt. Why can't we just thank him? Unbelievable.

29:33And so they did. They gave me a check. It was hilarious. And so the last time I met him, I gave him a Christmas card from thanks from the police department. And inside it was this paying off. Wow. That's amazing. What an incredible thing. And I said, Merry Christmas. And I've never seen him again. And the thing that was super interesting about that was when the State Department contacted me to want it to interview me. They asked me a lot of questions about a lot of cases I worked. that's the one that they really wanted to know how in the world did you come up with that plan why did you take that risk how did you know that that would work out you know and then i told him i was like i didn't know but i believed based on my history in my relationship with god it was actually not a stupid decision was actually fairly smart yeah

30:25Jon McLaughlin:and it turned out to be brilliant can't that right i know dave i know that you have tons that you want to get to, but quickly, you know, you said that was toward the end of your tenure as a police officer in D.C. Was there a sort of ramp-up phase where you're having to decipher, like, okay, am I hearing from the Holy Spirit here? What was the beginning part looking like? Yeah, just my beginning was more like, so like, you know, you go through the academy and get out on the street and you do a year with a training officer. My training officer was crazy he was great one of the best street cops i've ever known in my life and um and he was a great mentor discipler but he you know total crazy not believing guy but he was such a good discipler mentor and um and so i had a year with him and he's very hard on me he's really he told me every shift that i wasn't going to make it every shift he would say you're not why don't you just not come back he would he would say don't come back and save us the money every at the end of every shift, he would tell me I'm not going to make it.

31:30And then by the next day, I thought I would think I was going to make it again. And he would make sure. And he did that. I mean, he was so good. And but and then one day we came into this precinct after, you know, a year and he said, well, I was wrong. You made it. That's how he cut me loose. He's like, you made it. I was wrong. And I just realized what he was doing to make sure that I really wanted to be this officer, you know, and then it wasn't a game and all that. And he taught me a ton of stuff. It was amazing. And then so when you're on, then when I was on my own and I got out there by myself, then it was a different world because he wasn't there.

32:07And, you know, you do a lot of stuff on your own. And I started, then I was waiting to see, okay, what can I do that's beyond what he taught me and what the academy taught me? What are things to know that I don't know yet? And this is, this is wisdom. This is just praying for wisdom. That's all it is. Like super practical wisdom. And so then I was asking God, I was like, I'm in situations, my training runs out. My training doesn't cover this. What do I do? And so in those situations, I would ask God, I need another way to think about this. And then what I would do certain things that my training taught me, it didn't work.

32:44So like, why do we keep doing things that don't work? We're famous, humans, Christians even are famous for doing things that don't work. They stopped working if they ever worked, but we just keep doing it. And so nothing changes. It's called compulsive repetition. And I would be like, okay, this doesn't work in a domestic dispute to do what we do. It doesn't help. It pacifies it for a little bit of time, but we're going to be back here working a homicide or something because our system doesn't help anybody. It just enforces laws, which we know doesn't work. But to serve and protect could work.

33:20So I started thinking there's serve and protect and there's law enforcement. We're trained to be law enforcers. Law enforcers create conflict. That's all they can do. That's all they can do. Respond to conflict with conflict. Servers and protectors can end things forever. Right? So we have to decide. Our car says serve and protect, but that's not what we're trained to do. Jesus is a server and protector. The Pharisees are law enforcers. Which one do we want out there? And so I started asking God, how do I serve and protect these people right now? Like, I know how to law enforce. I know how to do it.

33:55And if I have to, I will. And sometimes that's all you got. But a lot of times serve and protect is way better. So like when I arrest this guy and put him in my car, Lord, how do I serve and protect this guy? He's a human being. he's not he's not a bad guy he's his identity is you knit him together in his mother's womb and sometimes the best thing i can do for them is take them out of society and give them a chance to get well yes but sometimes that's not the right thing to do right and so so the way i would level up is i would just carry a notebook with me and i would just i would my first question was god do you still speak actively to me or is that done is that gone did that end with the bible like Like, do you talk, can you talk to a cop on duty in the moment?

34:38I have to know for sure that you can, that you do or don't. I don't want to guess. I don't want to wonder. I want to, do you do it or not? And, you know, we know by trying. That's the only way you know. Like, go out and try it. And so I would just try on these, you know, smaller cases. I would just ask God questions and I would have these ideas. My thing was, how would I know it's you? How would I know it's you? How do I recognize your voice? because it's probably different for different people. And you have to learn to hear the voice of God, the way God speaks to you and the way he does it. So this is one quick example.

35:12So my FTO would say, my training officer would say to me, your radio is your lifeline. You have to be able to hear when they call you on the radio. My unit's 510. Well, there's a zillion people talking on the radio all the time. So, and he's, and I'm sitting there quiet in the parking lot. He's saying, you have to hear when they call you. And I said, okay. And he goes, well, they've called you three times. And you didn't even hear it. So that means if you put me on a polygraph and they asked me, did they call you? I would say no, and I'm telling the truth. And I'm wrong. I'm telling the truth and I'm wrong.

35:49Because they did call me. I couldn't hear it. I didn't recognize it because of all the other stuff on the radio. And so I would have to listen to the radio with my ear down near it in total silence. and then they would go, Scout 510. I would go, there it is. They called me, and my FTO would be, oh, great. Okay, now can you drive and do that? Yeah. Can you be in a high-speed pursuit and hear it? Can you be in a desperate situation in the middle of a fight and hear it? And you can, but you have to learn to hear it. So today, if Donna wants to wake me out of a dead sleep, she just says, 510, and my whole body comes awake.

36:30This is what hearing God is. You have to tune in. And we hear the enemy all the time, and we respond to the enemy immediately all the time. The enemy is always accusing and deceiving, and we're like, yep, yep, yep. You're no good. That's right. I know. You're not a good parent. I know. Yeah. We can hear that voice because we're trained to hear it. But we can't hear the voice that said, I'm really proud of you. We can't hear that voice.

36:54Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. And so we go, I'm disappointed in you. But man, when you learn, when you zero in on the voice of, and he doesn't, God doesn't yell. He's not loud. He's very, but man, boy, when you know his voice, it cuts through all the crap. And so the first part was like, is that you? Is that you? Is that me? Is that you? Is that me? Is that? Yeah, right. And then you just learn. Nope, that's me. And now to these days, I'm like, I know it. I just know it. I don't have a big, is that God? Do I have peace? you know all this stuff it's like i know his voice so you just learn to hear it and then once you can hear it then he starts he starts talking in more and more difficult situations because now now that you can hear him he's like hey let's go do this together now that you're paying attention to me now let's go do this together because you can hear me in this and you can hear me in this and he'll keep leveling up to show you who you really are who you really are.

37:53That's what he wants you to know. He's like, why don't you believe about yourself what I believe about you? Why do you believe what everyone else says about you? Why don't you believe what I say about you? So that's part of the journey. And then why don't you believe about what I say about myself? And then why don't you believe what I say about that guy in your backseat? Why don't you believe what I say about people? And this is the great commandment, love God, love your neighbor, love yourself. This is the highest thing we can do in all the laws, and the prophets come underneath that so in that cruiser it's me god it's me god and the other and god's like do you love me more than your job well then i want you to let this guy go do you know what i think of you as a human me to j i don't think of you as a police officer this job does not your identity you cannot lose your identity if you lose a job like do you not understand who you are you're not risking a job Yeah, yeah.

38:50Your identity is intact. Now, do you know who that is behind you? I know who you think you think it is. You're wrong. He's not an animal. He's not someone we don't care about. He is human. Don't dehumanize him, which is what we do. He's a human, and I have a plan for his life. Are you going to respect my plan for his life? Or is your job more important than that?

39:17so that what do you that's i haven't written the whole thing out but do you like kind of how it's beginning oh i was doing i was actually doing a song oh were you not listening

39:25Jon McLaughlin:oh i was singing oh my gosh classic double performance it's two artists in a room what's gonna happen you know hey i love a non sequitur okay you ever been shopping online and totally blanked on your password you have no idea what the password storage app is stored on or which Just freaking store. Just where are things stored? Where is everything? John, all the time. Then I see that little purple shop pay button pop up right during the checkout. And it's like a warm security break. Yes. No fumbling for my wallet. No typing out card numbers. God, I'm so busy, John. Just one tap and I'm done. That purple button is the greatest.

40:03Jon McLaughlin:And it means one thing and one thing only, Dave. Shopify. Shopify powers millions of stores around the world. from big brands to folks just getting started. Everybody else. And you can build your store with hundreds of beautiful templates. No coding needed. Plus, Shopify's AI tools help you write product descriptions, spruce up photos, and make managing your store a breeze. When it's time to get your products in front of people, Shopify makes marketing simple. Email campaigns, social posts, all easy to set up and track. And you know what? You're not going to have any hiccups, but if you ever get stuck, Their 24-7 support team is ready to help no matter what you need.

40:41So if you want fewer abandoned carts and more sales, that purple ShopPay button's got your back.

40:46Jon McLaughlin:See, less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their ShopPay button. Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash dadville. Go to shopify.com slash dadville. And I'm just going to ask one more time. That's shopify.com slash dadville. You were a little late on that. I'm going to do my song. No, no, no, no, no, no.

41:16Jon McLaughlin:Hey, everybody. It's John here. It's just going to be me on this one because I'm that passionate about it. Now, listen, I want to tell you about Time for Learning. Time for Learning believes in harnessing the flexibility of homeschool to help families explore passions, travel, and hobbies without the constraints of traditional school hours. So you could have school, like, on top of a mountain. or in the middle of the ocean, whatever. You can schedule a mix of subjects each day or focus on specific ones by the day. Time for Learning is incredible in the way that it has everything you need to teach pre-K through 12th grade at home with all the core and elective classes offered in a traditional brick and mortar school.

41:56Jon McLaughlin:Now, the cinema series, it might be my favorite. It's rich, story-driven courses for grades 6 through 12 that bring learning to life. Get started with a monthly plan to see if Time for Learning is right for you and your family. You got multiple students? You can save up to 30 % by opting for an annual plan. Time for Learning's templates for transcripts, grades, and diplomas make it easy to match homeschool requirements in all 50 states. And the templates can be used as a main curriculum, supplement, or even afterschool or summer learning series. Now, for me personally, I'm just thinking how Time for Learning could help us musicians while we're on tour.

42:37Jon McLaughlin:I mean, we could educate our little ones every day in any city right before soundcheck. I mean, that would be living the dream. And after 20 years of over 1 million students served, Time for Learning is the best way to nurture confident, future-forward kids and get them ready to thrive in college and career. If you're curious if Time for Learning is right for your family, visit timeforlearning.com. That's T-I-M-E, the number four, and learning.com to explore the curriculum and find the perfect plan for your student. You can even get started with just a monthly subscription to see how much your kids enjoy learning on their own terms.

43:16Jon McLaughlin:Timeforlearning.com. you know it's it's it's amazing that this this what you're speaking to and this is i'm so glad that you said that because it it goes right so obviously we can't even get to this other story because people that are listening just go listen to jamie talk about his time overseas there's a story about you you praying your car is invisible that's still one of the craziest things i've ever heard but for the sake of time and you and you did such a good job leading us in the second thing and this is really what I wanted to hear you speak on too. And so for parents and people that are listening, I would love to hear you just kind of talk through because this was so impactful to me listening to you talk about and Donna talk about identity.

43:57And y 'all's ministry around this is so profound. And it sent me on this really great journey. I'm 47 years old and in the last six months really feeling like for the first time, and I think I've known it for a long time, but I think really because of the podcast I listened to and kind of y 'all walking some of the other hosts through this stuff, kind of like how you do it, just kind of the general. But for me it was so profound because what you said, I'm in a season where work is getting tougher, it's heavier, it's not working quite like it used to, and being a singer-songwriter is such a weird job anyway.

44:29But the longer you do it, it's not like other corporate ladders where the higher you get, you keep. It's like you tend to have really good beginnings, and then it just gets harder because you're not novel anymore. and so it's just a lot more work and it's a lot more identity stuff but something that i came to from y 'all's work was this realization that if i'm going into every room that i'm going into as a singer songwriter as an entertainer then i can have a bad show and i've failed i can have a day that i write a song that isn't good that doesn't get recorded and i've failed but what i think i realized was if i can go into that room as a bringer of joy which is i think what my identity is, I never fail.

45:08I never fail. And the way God has made me, I have an inexhaustible amount of that. It's just kind of, in fact, I was on a run after listening to one of your podcasts and I was just kind of praying through this. And I felt like the Lord asked me, what is the thing that takes you out of the game? Like what gets you out of the game? And I stopped and I thought, and I was like, it would be joy. It would just be that whatever it is in my life that's getting taken, it takes joy for me and I'm out of the game. I'm completely, you know, I'm irrelevant at that point. And it was really, and so I would love to hear you for the dads and moms and just people that are listening.

45:40How, like, what is, what is kind of the quick flyover on people that would go, I don't know what my identity is. How do I find that? And why is it important? Can you speak to that? Yeah. Yeah. And I think what I love about scripture, I love what you just said about that. Your identity is about joy and that you lose your joy. Then yeah, that's what we say. like you're out yeah i mean if if you lose your sense of identity like you're sidelined and um so the uh the simple the the scriptures are just they're they're really straightforward and simple what complicates them is our own fear that's what fear complicates everything um and so a person a person's identity has beautiful complexity to it beautiful you'll you'll be trying to discover the depth of who you are into eternity because what god made when he made you is unbelievable.

46:30And it's not cliche hype. It's like, no, it's just complex and beautiful. And that's why God wants to move you into these different situations so you can see who you are. It makes you worship him at a level that you, it's like, you did that when you made me. It doesn't give you any sense of ego. It's more like, I just know, I like know who I am, But I also know exactly who I'm not. And who you are is like, it's complex, but it's very distinct. And so, like, I know that if I go into a situation in my true identity, this is what I'm going to do, this. And I need this identity and this identity. You need the community with you.

47:09It makes you much more community oriented and you're not competitive with anyone. So, there's no ego. It's just like, I know my part. I know how to do my part. I need you to do who you are. So the simple thing about identity is, this is what I do with people all the time. It's just like, listen, just take a moment. And if you're from a faith background, you can ask God, search me right now. Search me and know me. Reveal to me any way in me that's offensive to you. So I'm not telling God what I think. I'm asking him, tell me, what do I believe about myself that offends you? And what offends him is that we believe about ourselves things that he never said.

47:49that offends it he's not looking for like did you commit some moral herpitude he's like you're doing that because you believe something about yourself that is not true that's why you're over here doing this stupid stuff and see we just concentrate on why people are doing the stupid stuff it's like they're doing it because they don't know who they are if they knew who they were they wouldn't this wouldn't be appealing to them they'd be this would be like let's de-arrest the guy and see what happens like that's the kind of thing that attracts you, right? Or let's write these lyrics because this is what we need to be saying.

48:23So simply asking the Lord, and if you're not from a faith background, you can do this because humans are made to do this. Just take a piece of paper and write down all the things you believe about yourself that hurt you. What are names you believe about yourself that hurt you? I'm ugly, I'm not smart, I'm not successful. We can do this with third graders and 90-year-old people. They know. They can do it like this. They know already. I'm stupid, I'm fat, I'm ugly, I'm not popular. Those names stick so fast because they don't take any faith to believe. That's why they stick so hard. They're like, yep, there's evidence of that right there.

49:04Yep, I got it. Yep, I tried to give a speech. I sounded stupid. Yep, I'm a bad speaker. All the evidence is right there. I believe it. The thing is, none of it's true. It's not true. And so you just take a piece of paper and you write it. I did this with 90 students the other night on Zoom. I just watched them cry on Zoom just doing this. Write down all the things you believe about yourself that aren't true. I'm a bad dad. I'm not a good parent. I'm not a good husband. All these things, you write them down. These are identity statements. They're I am statements. I am not good enough. They're deadly false identities.

49:45And all people know what they are. It's just whether you'll tell the truth about it. But I can do it. I have to do this every day because the accusation never stops, ever. The enemy never stops. You just learn how to deal with it. You learn how to process it really quickly. As you're saying that, as you get better, I would imagine the accusations get harder because you're getting better. and he doesn't want you to get better? Well, I'll tell you what's interesting. What happens is the enemy, so Satan's not a creator. He doesn't have the capacity to create. He can only imitate. You're the creator.

50:20I'm the creator. We're the creators. He takes, because of fear, guilt, and shame, we lose our capacity to create because we're too locked down. So he only has two weapons. The enemy only has two weapons. We watch him with Jesus. is accusation and deception. Because he lost at the cross, it's over. He doesn't have any power or authority, except he can accuse you and lie to you. And we can believe the accusation and believe the lie, and we empower it. He doesn't have any of them. Like I said, no one has the power to make you afraid. Nobody has the power to make you ashamed. Nobody. You do. You do.

50:58Jon McLaughlin:So when you're doing this daily practice of writing down, you know, the things that you believe about yourself that are false. What's the next step after you write these things down? Right. So, you write them down. You write them down. As truthfully, this is called confession. This is what confession is in scripture. It's not saying you're sorry. Nowhere in the Bible does God ask you to apologize for anything. Even when Peter denies Jesus, like, I need apology for that. Never. He never apologizes and Jesus never asked him to. What he wants him to do is confess. Truth tell. And it's not about, did you deny me?

51:33It's, do you love me. That's the question he wants the confession on. Isn't that interesting? We're so far off the mark on how we train in this stuff. So confession is, this is what I believe about myself right now, God. This is it. And I write it down. And then you give it to Christ. What else would you do with it? You don't manage it. You don't cope with it. That destroys us. You give it to Jesus. He became this for you. And we carry it and we hold it. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Carry it. Hold it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. He's like, give it to me. And so this is confession. I give this to you.

52:09Come unto me, all you are heavy burden. Cast your cares upon me. I care for you. Come, let me have it. Stop, stop taking it on yourself when I paid with my life to take it from you. And so you give it to Christ. So you write it on a piece of paper just for the like, that's real. And then, Lord Jesus, I'm coming to you, fixing my eyes on Jesus, the author, perfecter of my faith, who the joy set before him endured the cross. Fix your eyes on Jesus. Fix your eyes on him. He's right here. He's always been here. Take the piece of paper in the beautiful imagination he's given us, and imagine you're handing it to Jesus.

52:47What does he do with that list when you give it to him? What does he do? What do you think he does with that list and asking people, ask him, what does he do? When I give you all these things, I believe him on his, what do you do with them? And man, what people come up with, he ate it. He put it in his wounds. He burned it. He doesn't read it back to you and go, wow, yeah, that's pretty it. He never does that. We do that. The enemy reads them back to us and we go, I know. He takes them away as far as the East is from the West and remembers it no more. Like, right. And so give it to him, let him have it, watch what he does with it.

53:25You should see a group when they're in a room. That's why I was saying I was doing this podcast with 90 Zoom called 90 young people. And I was watching them start crying and they were writing on pieces of paper and holding the paper. Like, do it, do it. And then when he takes it and does it, now take a blank piece of paper and repentance is him telling you what's true about you. And then just sit with him. Okay, he swept the house clean, but you have to fill it with truth or it will come back worse. This is what happens to Christians. They go in, they pour it all out and they walk out wide open and they come right back.

54:03Right? And so take a blank piece of paper and say, Lord, what do you say about me? And people are afraid of this part because they've been taught he's going to condemn you. But that's what he does. He doesn't. Jesus never accuses humans. He's not the accuser of man. Satan is the accuser. Any accusation, anything you hear in your head that you're not good, not from God. Jesus never talks to people like this. Never. His thing is like, why don't you believe about yourself what I believe about you? How long do I have to keep telling you these things before you believe who you really are and who I am?

54:41That's his frustration. Not like you did that wrong. You did that wrong. You didn't have enough quiet times with your kids. You didn't share your faith. That's the enemy talking like that. Right? And so ask him what he calls you and write down what he says. Write down what he says. Immediately don't, don't, well, I don't know if that's right. Learn to listen and write it down. Now, now ask him, what do you want me to know about this identity? And dive into exploring it the rest of your life. because it will go out like this in so many beautiful ways. It's never-ending. And when we do this with people, I mean, we did this in our public schools here.

55:18We did it with middle schoolers, with 800 middle schoolers, public schools. Wow. In the school day, with the guidance counselors in the room and the principal. You should hear what those, what does God call you? You should hear what they say. It's unbelievable. He's proud of me. And they start crying. like you can't make a kid come up with someone's proud of them when they don't like themselves yeah only god can say that to a human and that's what changes their lives so that's the process truth tell about what you believe about yourself that hurts you give it to christ that's confession repentance ask him what he says about you write it down how many times do you do this all the time how many times do you feel like a failure every time you feel like a failure god i feel like a I'm afraid.

56:06I feel like I'm afraid. I'm going to give it to you. What do you say about me? Do you know how many times he'll remind you who you are? Every single time. He's right there. He'll say it to you 10 million times. That's what he'll do. And that's the process. And then once you have that sense of identity, what does he say? I'm loved. Okay. That's the foundational one you've got to get. You are always loved. You are never not loved. If you don't believe you're loved, he can't continue into the other identities that you have. You have to believe he loves you. I'm proud of you. That you have to believe he's proud of you.

56:38He's never disappointed in you. If you think he's disappointed in you, you won't come to him anymore. Right? People won't ask a God who's disappointed in him what he thinks of him. It kills their prayer life. So, like, just one other thing about this. So, we were teaching in a Christian high school, 400 9th through 12th graders and i said before i started raise your hands if you believe god's disappointed in you all of them raised their hands all of them because that's what we're taught you're you're this you're born a disappointment you start as a disappointment how do you overcome being a disappointment you got to do this this and this but i can't do enough of this this and this to get out of the disappointment yeah because it's not true it doesn't exist you're trying to work out of something that's not true.

57:27So I said, God would never come to you and say he's disappointed in you. He will never say that. Yeah. Yeah. That's profound. And the thing, and speak to, if you don't mind for a second about the communal aspect, because I think something that was so, I'd heard you talk about this in podcasts. And then I was telling my friends about this, you know, catching up with friends saying, man, I feel this crazy thing that's happening where I feel like God's really helping me understand my identity. And they would say, can I tell you what I think? And then they would add, you know what I would add to Joy Bringer is an advocate, is encourager.

58:00And it was like so cool to see what you guys talk about, what you and Donna talk about is how important it is. You led with this. This is not an island. I mean, the Christian experience is not an island experience, but it's a whole other conversation. But I think it's just another evidence. It's just more evidence that Jesus is always wanting us to to be together, so the church, to be together. And so I think it was so encouraging to me because I would tell friends, I'd be like, Hey, can I add one? And I was like, Oh, sure. So you start collecting these things that you realize that people help you.

58:32And so can you speak to that? What, what that's like, not just to do it on your own, but to sit with your friends and have invite them into that too. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Identity is something that you discover about yourself for the rest of your life in community. Like that's how, that's how it goes and so that the community yeah adds this component like you're saying of like here's the they they will validate what the lord says about you and they see it in you and they will also um add other things like you're saying and then and this is really important your identity is your gift to these other your identity is your gift to the world so god is not giving you a sense of identity so you can sit by yourself it's right he doesn't that's not it's your gift to the world And so I give my gift, my identity as a gift to my family.

59:20And this is, I think, the greatest parenting advice I would ever give is give your kids the gift of your identity. They're your kids because God wants you to give them the gift of your identity. Right? Otherwise, you're trying to become some kind of Christian parent that we don't have any definition for, really. Like, we don't know. Jesus doesn't give us a definition for a Christian parent. Yeah, yeah. What he does is demonstrates how do I give the gift of who I am to the world. So if you ask my kids, you know, who are adults and married and have kids, you know, what did I – and I, you know, gosh, we dragged them all around the world and did all kinds of horrible things, you know, and failed and all that stuff.

1:00:05But if you ask them what, you know, like what was the best thing your parents ever did, they would say my identity is on Tyra Knott's. Donna's identity, one of them is Timeless Life Giver. They would say about me as their dad, he untied our knots. That's what he did. And my mom gave us life. Wow. Do you see? So the only way I can be a bad dad is by not letting my identity pour out into my own kids. Yeah. But then I can't read a book and compare myself to anyone. I'm free of that because God's not asking me to be this model of a dad or this model. He's saying, discover your own identity, give it as a gift to your kids and help them discover theirs and teach them that it's their gift to the world.

1:00:55And the only way they can do that is by hearing from God. Yeah. And you speaking into that as a parent, as you watch them grow and you know them so intimately to enforce that. That's right. And again, by giving example to you doing it yourself and how you contribute. That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. And it's so simple. It's so simple. You don't like, am I praying with my kids enough? That's not the question God's going to ask you. How many times did you pray with your kids? Like, that's not what he's going to ask you. Do you understand the identity that I gave you?

1:01:28Did you give them that? Did you, in giving them that, teach them to understand their own identity and how to give that to the world? and you can only do that in an experiential relationship with Christ. Did you give them that? Then they'll be fine. Yeah, but what if they go to a liberal college? That'll never even faze them. But if they're getting their identity from maintaining a certain code, you know, or some kind of, then you've got to keep them protected. You can't throw them out into a lost and crazy world because their whole identity is built on the group that they're in or the team they're on.

1:02:10Right? And so, what I love to my oldest son is when he, because our kids, we would drop them off at college and leave the country. Like, we weren't with them. I mean, that's just, but see, that's just our family. I wouldn't recommend, I don't tell anyone how to raise a kid. Like, you raise that kid, when you hear God and ask God about the identity of that kid, that's how you raise him. Don't read 10 ,000 books. They'll just make you feel bad. Like, learn how to know who you are and give it to the kid and teach your kid their identity and how to hear from God. If they get those two things. And so, our oldest son, we dropped him off at the university.

1:02:51And there's no Christian organizations on the campus. None. There was a satanic club. There was a witch club. Gosh, what college did you guys go to? That was American University in D.C. There you go. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, you'll be fine. Good luck. And we drop him off. He's rimming with a person he's never met. And we went to Iraq.

1:03:13And he double majored and minored in Arabic. And he's like, I'll be fine. I'll be okay. And so I called him one time. And he was doing his philosophy degree and part of his degree in international relations philosophy in Arabic. and uh and now he's a lawyer international lawyer went to law school after that but he said he i called him one time and i said how's how's classes going he goes oh man i gave a speech in philosophy class today and i said how was it he goes they booed the whole time they booed the whole time and i said i'm sorry and he goes oh no oh man no this is i've got to learn how to speak in this community this is the best thing i could be doing how am i going to ever communicate with these folks if I don't get up there and learn how to speak in a way that they can hear me.

1:03:59Good night. See, it's not, he doesn't get his identity from whether they boo or not. He takes his identity into the room. He holds it there and he leaves with it. He doesn't get it there and he can't lose it. Well, there's something that I feel like I'm just beginning to learn about that, which is the difference between me being my job or me being a dad or a husband or whatever is they're all tied to a fuel tank that's really low on gas. And I think the thing that I'm learning as I live in and try to be more who God made me to be, it really is this inexhaustible energy that I feel so connected to the Lord with.

1:04:38And so for me, if I go in and I'm trying to bring joy in life in the way that I am and it doesn't work, that's not a hit on me. It's crazy how I don't leave those situations going. That's right. I really failed. I'm just like, well, that just didn't go like I kind of wanted it to. But it's crazy how it just feels. It's so impenetrable, that thing. Now, the days that I fail in my job, it ruins me. I can leave and go, oh, I was a terrible writer today. Or, man, that show was awful. And now I'm driving to the hotel that night thinking, what am I doing with my life? But as I get better at this thing, it's like, well, that's just an offshoot of what I'm really made to do.

1:05:17and the show can go bad, but if I did my best to bring joy to that room, then I feel good. And I think that's been an interesting great example of your son is he can then go up there and do that and then not go well, quote unquote, and there's booze, and you just kind of go, well, that sort of stinks. But there's not this, if I'm a speaker in that moment, then I failed because people booed and I spoke and it didn't go well. And so it's a really weird thing to get used to, this feeling of being tethered to the Lord's power source, which is maybe the worst three words I've ever said. But this real feeling of like, oh, wow, this does feel this weird.

1:05:54It just kind of keeps coming. I'm okay because this isn't me. If they're mad at anybody, they're mad at God because it's who he made me to be. But I'm still just being who God made me to be. It's a really weird sort of continuum you live in doing that. Yeah. We have the model of Jesus, of course, that some of his talks didn't go that well, honestly. And they weren't received well. And I mean, so in his humanity, which is so beautiful, when you think about what he's navigating in terms of being falsely accused and all of that's going on, and he's demonstrating in all of that internal peace, like it's remarkable.

1:06:37And one thing that we really try and work on, and I think all of us should do this, is we view most things as win-lose situations. That's how we're raised and trained to think. This is either going to be a win or a loss. But Jesus' whole thing is, no, the whole thing's a win. It's only win-win. That's all it can be. And so, how do we go into situations going, no matter what goes on here, it's a win. How is it a win? Because I stayed in the truth of who I am. I did what I believe the Lord invited me to do. And that's the win, not the result. and the expectation is what hurts us, right? The false expectations or it'll look like this or like that.

1:07:19And so, Jesus is going through life like that and he knows there's a time coming when this will end, you know, and he's going to go to the cross and he starts. But he never spends any time worrying about Gethsemane. He doesn't lay in bed at night going, wow, I'm going to do Gethsemane one day. Ooh, that's going to be a tough one. He doesn't live in the future like that. He doesn't future trip. And so he can stay in peace in the present. And so that's why he's always telling the disciples, here's what you need to be thinking about right now. That's all right now. Don't think about tomorrow. Don't think about we're thinking about right now because I can only be present with you in the present tense.

1:08:04Yes, that's a great word. There's a way to think about the future. There's a way to think about the future. But we tell people all the time, when you think about the future, you have to think think about the future from the present tense. In other words, Jesus is with me right now, right here in the present. Jesus, what do you want me to know right now about five years from now? That's a valid question to ask him because you're only speaking from the present and he'll only tell you in the present what you need to know now about that because otherwise you'll start to do hypothetical scenarios and they'll kill you.

1:08:39And the enemy loves the hypothetical. He thrives in the hypothetical. And so, take every thought captive in the present tense. And so, I pray with all the people all the time, Lord, Lord, do you want to give them a picture of five years from now? Like, is that something that you're interested in showing them? What would that look like? And then when he shows them the future, it's like he didn't tell the disciples, follow me, and you're all going to be martyred. That's not how we talked about the future with them. He said, follow me and I will make you fishers of men. People do that. Count the cost.

1:09:13That's not correct. Count the cost now, right now. Now. Not five years from now because you don't know it. And you're not spiritually, you don't have the grace for it. You'll have the grace the day you get there. But don't, because if you start thinking about it now, you'll never go. You'll never. God, that's a good word. So, you know, I was going to say, too, that there is something. This really impacted me early in my faith when I read the Sermon on the Mount. It's so interesting to me that when someone asked Jesus how to pray, which is a big question, right? Like you think maybe like top five questions Jesus ever gets asked, that he's like, this is how you pray.

1:09:49And he says, today, our daily bread. Like he doesn't. It's all about today, that prayer. And I think that is such a profound thing. and it's a real gift to me that he's not like, and then, you know, so then pray about tomorrow and then like maybe just shoot one up for a year from now. But it's like, it's such, it infers so many things what he's not saying and it calms me down to go, okay, then I just get up. And what that is inferring is that, hey, we're just going to do this every day. If you're asking me how to pray, pray every day and just pray about that day. And it's not that you can't pray about that.

1:10:20It's not saying, look, you can pray about anything. He wants us to do. But I think he's saying, if you're asking me how to pray, I would say this is good. you know, you know, that's right. Unbelievable. I love that. Listen, you, I mean, I feel like this could be a nine hour conversation, but I know you have to go mow or work out or get some bitch press in. So we would love to keep having you back. I mean, I feel like there's a million questions we have because again, there's just, and I can't, everybody's listening. I want to say a couple of things. One, just listen to any podcast at Jamie's on, listen to sermons.

1:10:51You and your wife now have your own channel, which is great. because it's just such a great curation of sermons and conversations y 'all are having and things. Also, you can hire you guys, which I'm trying to figure out how to get some capital to just have you come sit in the backyard or something. I don't know what that looked like. It looked like early Jesus times, just a gathering of people. The other thing I want to say before we let you go is, would you do a quick plug about the book? And I know you have a new book because I want to make sure people know about that. Yeah. So, yeah, the book Living Fearless, that was a talk we did a long time ago in Salt Lake City where pastor said if we just opened up the doors on a Saturday and let anyone come in that wanted to what would you talk about?

1:11:33I said I would talk about understanding your identity and so they did it. It was an immense thing and 400 guys showed up and we talked all day about identity and that was recorded. They recorded it. That's living fearless. And so yeah and then some people heard it and asked if we would put it into a book so that's the first one it's really about identity um how to hear from god what is confession what is repentance really what is transformation and what are we afraid of that kind of stuff and then this the book the one that's coming out may 5th is called the war of worldviews um choosing connection in a scarcity world and that's that's like understanding identity is the core but that we have to understand that the way we look at the lens through which we look at the world is either through a lens of separation or a lens of connection.

1:12:21There's no other two worldviews. Those are the two. And Moses starts talking about them in Genesis 1. He's describing the two worldviews to the Israelites so that they won't come out of slavery and go right back into slavery again because the worldview never changed. So, that's what that's about. And that's where that story about letting that guy out of the car is woven through that. But how different the world is if you pay attention to like, most of all of the world is taught the separation worldview. Christian, non-Christian, atheist, Muslim, they're all in the same worldview, which is really fascinating because we think we're different.

1:12:58We're not. And it's all empire building. That's all we're doing is empire building. Churches are empire building. Communism's empire. All of them are, everyone's empire building. We're not kingdom building. And that's why we can't get out of the violence that keeps coming. We can't break it because empires can only fight. That's all they know how to do. Kingdom is different. And so is there a chance, is there a possibility for us to move out of continual conflict into actual reconciliation in now, currently, not someday in the future when we're in heaven? And there absolutely is. but to do it we have to change the lens through which we see the world so that cops have another way to think about how they interact with teachers they have another way of interacting how do we stop school shootings how how do we stop meth production it's all because everyone lives in a separation worldview that's why we can't get out of it and believers should stand remarkably distinct from that and we don't we're right in it we're right in the empire building too.

1:14:09So, um, yeah, that's what that's about. That's May 5th. Yeah. That comes out May 5th. Yeah. I really like that book. It's a little, it'll be a little, um, challenging for people, but. Quote unquote. I would love, I would love if on the front of that book, it says it will be a little challenging for people just right under the channel. I'll tell you, I'll leave you with one thing. I won't get into it because I do have to go, but I, towards the end of the book, I compare Joseph and Daniel. and my question to american especially believers is i'm interested joseph and daniel were both good guys one of them had zero impact on the leadership of his country and one of them had leader had impact on three whole dynasties of people one of them ended up all their descendants ended up in slavery and one of them led people out of exile and our question is as believers do you want to be joseph or do you want to be daniel man that's good so i dig into that that is so good gosh that it's good.

1:15:05Yeah. Because we don't tell those stories, right? Yeah. Anyway. And there's a shot across the bell. Jamie, you are the best. We are, we are so thankful. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for what you're doing. Yeah. Well, and y 'all anytime, just seriously, I'd love to jump on here with you. It's easy for me to do. So really anytime, you're the best. And let us know when you're here in Nashville, we'd love to come listen to you and hang and, you know, talk about cop stuff, hashtag cop stuff. You're the best, Jamie. Thanks so much. Thanks, guys. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

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