Simple Rules for Being Fully Present at Home with Jordan Raynor

24:19Jon McLaughlin:like it could strip everything away we could just be forced out of the whole the rat race a little bit i like i could see that happening and it's almost like i i'm scared of what god really wants for me in my family you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah i know i know i know exactly what you mean and and the crux of it is man if we're honest with ourselves we want material things more than we want spiritual things and don't get me wrong right i'm not saying material is bad that's platonic thought and most of the church has been more discipled by plato than by jesus christ and this has profound implications for how we think about the value of the work that we do with the material world this material world is eternal christ is not obliterating this earth he is redeeming this earth and that has profound implications for the work we do with this earth that said right it is clear that god's goal for our lives is primarily christ likeness and Everything else is a distant, distant second.

25:19And man, the more I place my eyes on that prize of becoming more like Christ, of viewing my other goals of hitting bestseller lists, of growing my business, whatever is secondary to that, the easier it is to show up, focus on the work, and leave the results in God's hands, knowing that the ultimate result of Christ like this is guaranteed. We love quoting Romans 828. God's going to work all things for the good of those who love him. But we forgive verse 29. What is the good that God is producing? Our sanctification. That's the good that he's producing. Okay. Rant's over. Sorry. No, no, there's no rant.

25:59My TED Talk. I'm about to lose my shirt. I can't wait until we start recording, too. This is a great run. Okay, so let me ask you a couple of questions around that. How do you balance achievement with spirituality? Like, like that, that's been something I've found myself talk, thinking a lot about, uh, in the last few years is, is as I get older, um, still a young, vibrant 48. Yeah. Young for you.

26:27It's not the age, it's the mileage. Thank you. Thank you. That's right. That's right. Um, I feel wisdom and going, Hey, and I think this is second half of life stuff, right? Like I kind of know some things I didn't used to know. and I would say chief among them with in a vocational sense is that all the things at 25, I thought, man, if I can get that, that would be, that's it, man. Sell this many people or tickets, uh, you know, play this in front of this, meet people, win this award, um, meet these people, whatever. It was like, that's going to do it for me. Well, of course, and Solomon really tried to help us understand this, but we don't listen.

27:05It didn't. Right. And so the beauty of that is with wisdom and the Holy Spirit, you go, oh man, that's okay though. And I did some things and I'm still doing some things. But I think with wisdom, what I've learned is, okay, sort of the vocational things I want to do, and it's still good to have them. They're not going to scratch an itch, but yet I still want to achieve things. Like there's goal. There are goals. There's things that I want to, I want to still achieve in my career. And I think now more than ever, I feel the tension. maybe tension is the wrong word I feel the cohabitation of okay you know like John and I like okay like John's got these bunch of Christmas shows coming up like obviously he wants those to do well he wants to sell a bunch of tickets and again that's

27:49Jon McLaughlin:www.jonnmcl.com all tickets are on sale affiliate link below with your Jordan Rinder discount and those tickets are still for sale but like but I also know I don't want that to become something that's, that is a idol or, or, or I define myself by the success or failure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I still want it to work. So how do, how do we balance those things? It's great, man. I love this question so much because I, I do, I don't know that it's necessarily attention. I think it's an issue of disordered loves and the, and an order in which we measure progress in our goals. Right. Because I would argue that the way that most non-Christians and Christians measure success suffocates us with striving, crushes us with comparison, and constantly slays us with self-doubt.

28:39Because first and foremost, we love to measure forward between where I'm at today and where I want to be in my goals. And this is the primary direction we all measure. I want to sell out my shows. I have not sold out my shows yet. And so I am discontent. And by the way, even if John does sell out the shows, which he's going to by the end of this episode, come on, help us out, guys. Right. Even if he does. I love by the end of this show. By the end of this show, by the end of this episode. Even if he does that, he's never going to be content because the gap never fully closes. And even when it does, you just keep moving the goalposts down the field.

29:16So then when measuring forward fails, we move on to the second unsatisfying direction of measuring our goals. We measure sideward and we compare ourselves to others. So John might not hit his goal, but if he beats Dave by the end of this episode, man, he's going to feel pretty terrific. And in case you're curious, John is currently winning. He is ahead. He is ahead. He's ahead. Team Dave, let's see what you got out there, guys. And then the third and final way we love to do this, when that doesn't work and it crushes us with comparison, we love to measure inward. And we accept this secular self-help garbage, which says that, hey, don't worry about Dave.

29:54You are enough, John, which we all know deep down is not true, right? And I think when we look at the Gospels, we see Jesus doing something radically different and radically more life-giving. First, Jesus measures upward at who his heavenly Father says he is. Then he measures backward at what God has already given him. And then and only then do we see Jesus measuring anything like what we do forward in between the gap of him and his goals. There's this really, really beautiful scene inside the famous feeding of the 5 ,000 that I think illustrates this really, really well. So they got 5 ,000 hangry people on their hands, right?

30:34The disciples are like, hey, where the heck are we going to get this food? And the moves that Jesus makes here are beautiful. Luke 9, 16 says, taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven. I think that's Jesus measuring the non-existent gap between him and the love of his heavenly father. Then it says Jesus gave thanks. He looked backward. And before he asked the father for 5 ,000 fish, he thanked God for the five loaves and two fish he had already been given. And only then did he measure forward and say, okay, father, please give me more to feed these sheep. Right? And I think that'll preach for us.

31:14And we can talk about what that looks like practically. But Dave, for me, man, it's not a, for me, ambition and achievement and spirituality aren't at odds with each other. But until I first measure upward at the cosmic chasm that Christ is closed for me between God's holiness and my sinfulness, and then measure backward at what God has already given me, if I don't do those two things first, I can never be in a spiritually healthy place to look forward and measure the gap between where I am and where I want to be. Yeah. So, John, that's just to answer your question about that. Well, he was looking at you most of the time.

31:53I can't really tell.

31:54Jon McLaughlin:OK, I've got I've got a quick question about something that I think a lot about these days more and more is time management. and I never thought, I mean, you said the 18 year old Jordan would be so excited. 18 year old John would be so disappointed that I just said that phrase. Like, let me tell you what I've been thinking a ton about lately. 18 year old John just started drinking. But I mean, truly like, as I'm a dad of, of two girls and how old are your kids, John? They're 13 and 11. and my wife and i you know our our our days are are full and it's great and i love it and i mean you know a lot of what we have been talking about to me right-sized itself when i became a dad in such a great way perspective wise yeah but still you know like there are you know the bank does want us to pay them the mortgage and so i have to figure out or my bank does i don't know If there's some bank out there that works differently, please hit me in the comments.

33:03Jon McLaughlin:So, but you wrote a whole book on redeeming your time. And I realize this, you know, I'm not asking you to sum up a whole book in one answer here, but what are some like practical things that you could, some advice that you have? Because I know a lot of listeners are in the same boat that, you know, that Dave and I are. Yeah, I'm happy to. So I'll give a theological answer and a practical one. I'm ashamed to admit that for the first, I don't know, 10 years of my career, I looked at Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins and looked to the world for wisdom about how to manage my time. What an idiot.

33:38What an idiot. Do we believe that Jesus is the author of time? Do we believe that he was 100 % God and 100 % man who had to steward the same 24-hour day that we do today? Of course we do, right? And so, man, the Gospels are obviously far more than biographies of the life of Christ. They are there to teach us the theology and ethic of Jesus. But there are also biographies of how he walked, of how he stewarded a 24-hour day. So that's kind of the spine of that book and Redeeming Your Goals is looking to the gospels as the biographical documents that they are to look at how Jesus managed a 24-hour day, how he pursued his goals, extracting these timeless principles, and then connecting them down to some modern, totally optional, one-guy opinions, practices for living out the timeless principles.

34:23And so a couple for me, man. Gosh, one, I just say no a whole lot to things. One of my favorite practices is having a regular stop doing meeting with my wife or my business partners where we look at our goals. We look at what we want as a family in a personal context or professionally as a business and literally trade laptops to see each other's to-do lists and calendars and recommend things for the other person to drop because they're out of line with those goals. because you and I think everything is important. Everything. Because we're in the weeds of our lives. But other people can see it so much more clearly.

35:02So I love those stop doing meetings. That's number one. Number two, when I'm home, when I'm home and my kids are home and I want to spend time with my three little girls and my wife, my phone remains off my person. So I end my work day around five every single day my phone stays in my home office until 7 a.m the next morning when i pick it up again wow and how long have you been doing that so i've been doing a version of this for 10 years starting tonight sorry i've been thinking about this and i decided this was the day to throw my cap over the wall let me be clear because i haven't done this but tonight Sadly, this is every self-help book.

35:47Did you say 10 years? 10 years. That is incredible. So today, I literally keep my ringer off. If somebody calls me, I'll have no idea. But let me rewind the clock a little bit because this will be, I think, more relevant to more people. When I was reporting to a board, or for you, listener, you're reporting to a boss when that wasn't possible. I did a version of this practice that I love. I functionally converted my cell phone into a landline for a couple of hours a night. So I put my phone on, do not disturb. I put it away in my office or my master bathroom, but I kept the ringer on. That way, the VIPs in my life, my boss, my assistant, my direct reports, whatever, could call me, right?

36:32I wouldn't see their texts. I wouldn't see their emails. And I gave them heads up ahead. It's, I'm like, hey, this is what I'm doing from five to seven. You're not going to be able to reach me. but if they called I could travel like I used to do as a kid I could walk to the other room pick up the phone look who's calling decide whether or not I want to answer it and a lot of times I did a lot of times I didn't but dude if I kept the phone in my pocket I'm an addict I would I was I used to be I was constantly checking email constantly checking texts especially when my kids were really young why because checking email is a lot more exciting than dressing up as PJ masks with my three-year-old over and over right you know what I mean and so man john that's helped me redeem redeem a lot of time with my kids i actually track this um because i'm a nerd i i track how many times my kids see me on my phone inside my house so outside my house i'm always on my phone directions whatever the last four months my kids have seen me on my phone once inside i am fully present with my kids now that doesn't make me a great dad i yelled at my kids two nights ago but like dude like i'm there i'm all i want to be the most

37:40Jon McLaughlin:you can still yell at your kids i don't want people to hear the wrong it was righteous anger guys it was righteous anger yeah yeah yeah that that is amazing that is amazing i think it's totally stupid don't don't i dude i don't want listeners back that's impossible for me it's a 100 % possible. Yeah. It's 100 % possible. Just tell people what you're doing. You don't have to tell everybody. Just tell your VIPs, right? Yeah. Hey, it could be one hour a night. Hey, from 5 to 6 p.m. Yeah. I'm going to be doing this. I promise the world will keep spinning. Listen, John. Yeah. I just, I have to get this off my chest.

38:22Do it. Yes, it's August now, but it's going to get chilly. And this feels like a time. August feels like the time to hit reset before the autumn rush begins. And honestly, I can't think of a better place to start than my closet. Dave, same page.

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40:45Jon McLaughlin:You know, it's a good thing to do maybe like a pre-exercise. I'm saying this for me because I definitely do not do that. but I want to do that is like for the last, you know, every morning at 7am when you, you know, you get your phone or let's say you've had it the whole time, write down what happened between those hours that was absolutely necessary. Yeah. Great idea. I probably have zero things. Zero. Yeah. Dude, I had a buddy of mine, uh, was running a fortune 500 company at the time. And I was talking to him about this practice. Like I'm going to try this. He turned his phone off airplane mode from Friday afternoon to Monday morning.

41:26A couple of months later, I was like, hey, Ronnie, how many urgent things did you miss? Like zero. Zero. This guy's reporting to investment bankers and a board. And gosh, we just love to overestimate our importance in the world. The most healthy thing we can do if we want to redeem our time is engage in some cosmic insignificance therapy. go outside and realize man i'm not special i'm not special and neither are you and that is the most liberating thing in the world that's great i love that i think that the time thing for me and i'm i may literally i would be the top of the depth chart on the worst at this in the world is being still and like letting time move at the time that it does is really hard for me.

42:20And a couple of years ago, I got a lot better at it because I would have days where, you know, I just wouldn't have much and it became a discipline. I didn't do it. I wish I had done it longer, but where if I didn't have anything, I would literally just sit in my studio and I would like grab a book or I just kind of sit for, for, you know, seconds at a time. And, uh, but I just remember trying to sort of align myself with this idea because it, it folds into all of the work that you do, Jordan. It's really interesting, but really trying to onboard this idea of like, um, the world continues to move.

42:56Uh, God is not dependent on my productivity to love me and I need to understand my place in the world. And it was just this really interesting practice of, of seeing how much I do things to escape the weight of time, to escape the feeling of boredom or, um, and you know, I mean, this is a probably a weird thing to say, but I, life is a lot more boring than I think we want to admit. Even people with busy jobs. Cause, cause to your point, Jordan, like with your friend, even at a high level job, you can still turn your phone off for the whole weekend and nobody needs you. And so you, at some point you have to square up with this reality that, you know, there's, and especially gosh, when our kids get out of school and they're, or sorry, get out of our house and are at college and move on.

43:48Like there's going to be a lot of time that is unspoken for in our life. And I think the sooner I can reconcile myself to the fact that like there's just a lot of downtime in life there's a lot of boredom in life the better and more healthy I get as opposed to staring at my phone or yeah working longer on stuff that doesn't need to be worked on in that moment whatever it is and so I think I I try to be better at this but it is the thing that's probably the hardest in my life is just being bored it's just not having anything I have to do I think it's the hardest thing for most people to do in our modern age.

44:23And I hear from readers all the time who say, Jordan, man, I carved out some time for deep work to work on that book, to work on that song, whatever it is. And I can't seem to focus. And I always ask them, how much time do you spend in the crevices of your day? Five minute drive to the grocery store, waiting in line at Starbucks, whatever, look at your phone. They're like, oh, all of it. Like that's a problem. Neuroscientists have shown this. There's really, really good data around this. If we rob ourselves of boredom and fill all the crevices of our day with noise and our phones when we want to focus we can't focus because we haven't gone to the focus gym right and so dude like i i i make i turn this into a game i'm like michael jordan playing mental games uh with himself you know in the nba finals i i'm exactly like michael jordan exactly that's every way in every way yeah i yell at my kids exactly Exactly.

45:16I'll play a game. I'll say, all right, I'm boarding an airplane right now to come hang out with John and Dave in Franklin. From the moment I scan my boarding pass to the moment I sit in my seat, I will not touch my phone. Or driving to Publix, my grocery store seven minutes away. I'm not going to play the podcast. I'm not going to play the song. And here's what happens. There's two benefits of this. The simplest is, number one, I'm working out those focus muscles for when I'm ready to focus and do some deep work. But number two, most importantly, it is only in those moments of solitude that I can hear the voice of God outside of scripture and let the Holy Spirit remind me of the Father's love of me even when I'm not being productive, right?

46:05It is when I hear him say, because I am in Christ, that I am also his son in whom he loves and whom he is well pleased. And I'll leave you with this. I'm trying to like drill this into my kids at an early age because it took me, I don't know, 30 years to figure this out. I have three daughters, 11, 10, and six. Every single night, last thing I tell them before they go to bed, Hey, you know, daddy loves you no matter how many bad things you do. And they say, yes. And most kids hopefully hear that message. And I say, Hey, you know, I also love you no matter how many good things you do. no matter whether or not you get an A, no matter whether or not you get into Harvard where you want to go to school, no matter any of these things.

46:53And they say, yes. I say, who else loves you like that? And they say, Jesus, right? Like that's a liturgy for them, but it's a liturgy for me to remind myself that I have the love of the Father irregardless of my productivity. Yeah, that's really good. A little pushback. The Holy Spirit does have a great podcast too, if you do want to. So here, you know, we'll kind of end with talking about kids, because I think you just said this, and it's an easy way to jump into this. But this is a humongous question, but how do you think about these things with your kids? I mean, some of it is the liturgy you just said, which is a beautiful example of understanding the love of God regardless of our vocation, which is amazing, and what we can do for ourselves or God or other people.

47:40But what are those disciplines or maybe more liturgies or postures or practices you have with your girls to help them understand that too? Like where does all this sort of come together? To help them understand God's design for work? Is that what you're asking, Dave? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and how they fit into that. Yeah, it's a great question. So number one, we just read what God's word has to say about work. God's word mentions work more than 800 times. That's more than every single mention of music, worship, and praise combined. Okay, easy. know the audience know your audience know your audience i know i know i know i know cut that now but like listen god's word has to say a lot about work and so we read genesis 1 that god himself works which by the way christianity is the only religion that makes that claim no other religion says that god himself works if you've ever once done something at work like man that feels good only christianity supports that in the ultimate i take them to mark chapter 6 where we're reminded that Jesus himself, God's son, who could have grown up in any home learning any trade of a priest, of a Pharisee, whatever, grew up in the home of a small business owner named Joseph making things with his hands.

48:55Then we read Isaiah 65. We read these passages frequently. Isaiah 65. I grew up with this terrible caricature of heaven as this glorified retirement home in the clouds where disembodied souls float around and play harps all day long. Isaiah 65, starting in verse 17. Although the guy playing the harp is working. Continue. He is working. That's true. Verse 17 of Isaiah 65 says, God says, see, I'll create a new heavens and a new earth. My chosen people will long enjoy the work of their hands, and they will not labor in vain. We have work to do free from the curse forever on the new earth. So we read those passages, number one.

49:35Number two, we love playing two truths in one lie around the dinner table. It's a great way to get my kids talking. and I make sure I always talk about something positive about work because my kids are going to hear lots of negative soundtracks from adults about work. I want them to hear the good stuff. I want them to hear that I got to hang out with Dave and John today on this podcast. And then finally, number three, I actually wrote a whole trilogy of picture books. We don't call them kids books because they are more for you than they are for kids about this. So this one, Tim Keller said he personally bought enough copies to put the creator and you on the New York Times bestseller list once.

50:15But it is this story. It's an exposition of Genesis 1 and 2 to remind us that the sixth day was not the end of creation. I don't know where we got this idea. According to Genesis 1, 26 through 28, the sixth day is when God passed the baton of creation to you and me to fill the earth and subdue it and create in the image of a creator God. So those are just a couple of things we're doing to kind of catechize our kids with a solid theology of work without ever using the words theology of work.

50:48Jon McLaughlin:So the two truths and a lie that you play like at the dinner table, is that specific to like the day or what? specific to the day. Yeah. Specific to the day. And lie about your day. Yeah. And the kids love it because they love being liars because they're heathens. Um, yeah. Like, you know, but you guys get it. If you ask your kids, how was your day? It was good. Right. Tell teachers will lie. And it's a game. Oh man, you're going to learn a lot about it. And then of course you ask the followup questions about, Oh, what happened in that class? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But dude, it's, it's a dope way to talk about the day.

51:18And for me to teach them about the good things about the work that God's created me to do. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, I mean, I think I was in my twenties when I realized that in the garden there was work, which was really, really fascinating to me. Yeah. We don't talk about this. It's crazy. And I mean, I grew up in church. My dad was a pastor, you know, and I was very catechized in a million wonderful things. but somehow that had slipped through all those things. And I remember really having to deal with that. One, in the first feeling of like, oh no, we got to work. But then to realize the redemptive work, like what work looks like as it was intended before the fall, and then how it will look redeemed.

52:08And then I think, and I know John feels the same way, but I love what I do. I get to do a job that I love. Like I do feel, um, the pleasure of God when I work, you know, I, I mean, not all the times cause I've, I've written a couple that aren't great, but, um, there's been some duds, but you know, yeah, that's no, no feature on that one for me. But I think, you know, I, I'm, I'm so thankful that my work does feel, um, yeah, I just, I feel that I feel, I feel that. And so I think then to link like, oh, that makes more sense to me that, you know, in the new heavens and the new earth, there'll be work to do that feels like cutting a freaking lawn.

52:56I mean, that feeling, pressure washing. Yes. Like finishing a song. I have city hands. I cannot resonate with this. Finishing a song. There we go. There we go. Hey, can I bring this full circle back to John's time management question? because the doctrine of the new earth has been by far, beyond the gospel itself, the most practically helpful idea of my life. Here's why. If this life is my only chance to pursue every dream that God gives me, to write every song, to write every book, I want to write a musical, there's a million things I want to do in this life, then it will be nearly impossible for me to drop anything from my schedule in my to-do list because I am subconsciously trying to decide whether or not I'm willing to write that thing off forever.

53:51But if I have got all of eternity, again, Scripture, Revelation 21 and 22 is abundantly clear. God's plan for heaven on earth is not an endless worship service, but endless worship through service. And yes, that includes music. And if I believe that, if I believe that I'm going to have all of eternity to pursue my God-given dreams, then I can be at peace with the fact that I'm going to die with unfinished symphonies today, 10 years from now, or 50 years from now. Because if the things on my to-do list that I'm thinking about dropping are on God's to-do list, one of three things is going to happen.

54:27One, when I die, God's going to tap somebody else to complete that work. Two, God will finish that work without any other human involvement. Or number three, God will invite me to complete that work when I arise from the nap that is death. Either way, blessed be the name of the Lord. I've got no problem. I've got no problem killing things. I've got no problem saying that. That's not true. I do. But that helps. What a wonderful way to land this whole plane. That is so good. I'm just high-fiving you through the screen. That is just wonderful. Okay, so as we—I can't think of a better way to end this.

55:01other than a quick acapella thing I'm writing. Go for it for everybody as we talk about vocation. So tell us this, Jordan. You have the book coming out, Redeeming Your Goals, which will be out October. Anything else? How can people find you? Anything else coming up people should know about? Yeah, we get lots of free content at jordanrainer.com to help you connect your faith to your work and work like 100 % of your work matters for eternity, not just the 1 % you spend evangelizing. And yeah, Redeem Your Goals drops October 13th, where most of this conversation came from. And lots of kids' books for your kids.

55:37Hey, can I actually read the last page of the Creator and You picture books? It's one of the Dadville podcast. Please do. So it talks about, you start by talking about, in the very beginning, a long time ago, God created the world so that we would all know that he himself is a working God. They might think that sounds just a little bit odd. And then it goes and it shows God's work, right? in the middle of the book says, before his day off, God had one more to do. On his sixth day of creating, God chose to make you. Now you might think that our story is ending, but in fact, this is just the beginning because God made you to look like him, to act and work and create with him.

56:12And then the book ends with this, because when you work and you make something new, you're doing what God has made you to do. You're showing the world what your father is like, a God who creates to bring people to light. And when you show others, the creator in you, you bring joy to the world and to your father too that's it that's it Jordan Rain everybody I mean that was you're the man thank you love it thank you yeah thank you for coming on man it was great guys this is a blast thanks for having me yeah this was really fun

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