Stephen James: Leadership and Scented Candles

26:41Like, how do I move through the world in a way? And it's been transformative because it's like, I've just been unlinking myself to these things that keep failing me. And instead going, the great thing about knowing your identity is then you take it into all of those things and they become a vehicle for that as opposed to my job being, that's why I do the job is to write songs. It's an expression of my gift. It's an expression of my gift. And it has been transformative. So I guess the question for you is, how have you gotten there with yourself? Do you feel like you know what it is that you sort of – what God has given you to do in that way?

27:15Today, he's given me this podcast. Yeah. Seriously. I mean, I think I have some ideas. Like, I'm weird. So it's my job to be weird. I'm much more like speaking from the outside into things. Like, I know that's true. so loneliness is a um a reality of my experience wow right and a lot of the troubles that i've created in my life i'm learning uh more deeply now that have been i've been about me trying to somehow get away from that sense of loneliness yeah but if i'm gonna be me and speak in two things from the outside like then i'm not in them and then that's cool right and that's cool i can I also trick myself that I don't belong and all that stuff.

28:02And that's the downside of that. I think that what I said to you, like, that I know my place in this experience here is to help other people find their way home on the way. Like, I know that. I know that. That's amazing. I know that. So that says I can't help people who aren't trying to find their way home. Yeah. Starts there, right? It's like, oh, you're trying to do something else. Great. I can't help you. You know, if you are, I can help you find your way home on the way. And that's awesome, right? So it's like a real limited part to play. That's true for me. I'm good at speaking from the outside into things with love and compassion.

28:45Like, is it true? Is it kind? Is it loving? Like, then say something. If it's not, keep your mouth shut. Like, that's new. I used to just say things. That's new. That's new. Not even really good at that yet, but I'm practicing it, right? Yeah, that's right. I think another thing I'm learning is I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And I don't know what's best for you. I don't know what's best for you. I don't know what's best for me. Like, as a parent, it's like I've got adult kids, and I don't know what's best for them, and they don't either because they're like 25 to 20. They're knuckleheads.

29:25They're supposed to be knuckleheads. There's only, you know, and so it's like that's been a new embracing of how do I live with my own integrity, my own passion, my own like leaning into things without having to know, not having to feel certain. And then like where do I attach to what's beautiful, true and good? Yeah. Like I'm so supportive and a fan of really good art now, like music, books, novels, visual art, a really good yard that's cut well. Like something that's done intentionally to bring out beauty, something that's done to expose goodness, something that's done to illuminate truth. not create those things they're already there but how can we as Michelangelo said remove what needs to be removed so the piece of art can live out of the stone what's the quote you guys on David have you seen the David yes this is such a bougie conversation about that but when I turned the corner of that building in Florence and I saw I still can't talk about without crying like it stopped me yeah in the in the is it the duama where is that the yuppit something yeah yeah and you walk past these stacks of stone that are half carved angels coming out of you're like oh that's cool that's cool and then you see this thing and it like i just was speechless i was dumbfounded and just sat there and cried and moved by beauty yeah and so that was an awakening for me.

31:04It was like, there's something more powerful than my own trauma. There's something more powerful than my own grief. There's something more powerful than my own goodness. There's something beautiful out there for me to bleed into and discover. And that doesn't change. That's not temporary. Yeah. That never ends. That is the eternal energy that we can trust. Yeah. So that's important, right? Yeah. And then there's a couple other things that have been helpful, but it's really incorporating that and then just trying to get weirder. Just trying to get weirder. But you know what's so beautiful about that?

31:42I love you saying that. I do because I'm like, that is how God has made you and there's wonderful things about that that only you can bring. I hope so. Do you know what I mean? My New Year's resolution this year was to be more eccentric. And my kids, when I was sharing that, like New Year's Day or something. I love that. I looked at Heather and I looked at the kids and they were like, you're already like really eccentric. Yeah, you're out there. I was like, no, I'm like, I'm so held back. Like I'm so playing it safe. They're like, you're so strange. It's like, yeah, let's get weirder. You know?

32:19And I found it. Oh, I love that so much. So what is that? I don't know what that means. I'm just trying to go be more eccentric. Yeah. Like don't break through. I used to think eccentric was breaking the rules. Hmm. And now it's like, no, I'm not like, I do believe rules are suggestions that other people should follow. And that's a character defect. I'm not saying that's like, but that's, I can't, that's, that's how I'm made. But I don't need to break the rules anymore. Also, I'm not following the rules. Like I'm trying to be weird. You know? What does that look like? Like, how would you define that?

32:54Practically, I drove on the shoulder of the road yesterday to get around traffic. But that's not okay. It also means like you mentioned a book that I came out with. This is the first. I've done my last two writing projects. I've not gone to a publisher. Oh, wow. Because I don't actually care if anybody reads it. That's weird. and the two previous books I did with Chip Dodd, like he likes talking about things he's written. I like writing them. He loves talking about it and speaking about it, encouraging people. The book is sort of an avenue to him talking, which is awesome, right? I really discovered like I actually like doing the artistry of it and trying to find a point of view that might help people in it, Writing it and then going here.

33:48And then letting it be what it is. So this act of being myself for my 50th birthday, which was two years ago, I put together – this is so like what people do at Midlife Crisis. I put together a book of poetry. So I write poetry for myself. Wow. Some magical things have happened in my life the last few years. This is one of them. I write poetry for myself. I've always done it as an act of like making sense of like really yeah strange things in my life hard beautiful like and so over the course of something a big chunk of my life I got a stack of poems I've written for me some for Heather for her birthday some for somebody on their graduation some for a friend you know but it's all really personal and I because of like I know a lot of artists performing artist and like i always think it's so cool that they're just like here's my art here's my art it's like i've never had that impulse and so my brave act of being 50 was like i'm gonna put these together and and publish them and then give them out to friends right it was so freaking scary oh yeah it was terrifying you're you're braver than you think you are it was so scary It's narcissism.

35:04Continue. Okay, well, sure. It's not just narcissism, Dave. As I cry. But that was in reference to Heather for her 50th birthday the year before. She did this thing that was like brave for her. And for her, it was to do 50 acts of bravery for her in that year. So she made some rules for herself because she's a good rule follower. I'm not. It was like six months before and six months after her 50th birthday. She was going to do something that challenged her. So she wrote letters to friends. She didn't look in the mirror for a week. She went on a silent retreat. She did all these things that were just weird.

35:45That's a lot of things. That is a lot of things. Oh, it's incredible. I'm realizing there's so much I miss by not paying attention to her the last 30 years that I'm just like, she knows some stuff. I'm not going to tell her that. you need to we can cut that there's power well she wouldn't believe me if i told her so that's her special power yeah uh but that so inspired me it's like well i'm gonna do something too for my 50th birthday so i planned this big you're like i'll see your 50 and raise you one yeah that's that's a pretty competitive dave so i um my first thought which was a terrible thought it wasn't terrible thought it just wasn't brave i there's three non-profits that that we support consistently i called the executive directors of those and i said hey i want to do a fundraiser for my 50th birthday and i'm going to call in all my favors right and i'm going to raise fifty thousand dollars for each of your non-profits on my 50th birthday so we had some meetings and then about like three months into that i'm realizing this isn't brave this is work i do i do this all the time right right like this is creative this is good but this isn't brave and I was like what's brave so I went into my thinking place and it's like I've got to share poetry and I was like oh man

37:02Jon McLaughlin:no no so what was scary about releasing that what did you feel when you put that out extremely personal I've written a dozen books now when I'm writing a book I always have the audience in mind how can I say this in a way for them and I think that's good service it's also good commerce It makes a better book. These are all things I wrote for me. You were never intending on these, Seeing the Light of Day. Never. So they weren't written in a way that you're like, oh, I know how to say that in a way that won't give me up, but people will get it. You are just like, this is Stephen James writing. Yeah, like in the Wild Things book that David Thomas and I wrote, that book sold a lot of books.

37:42I'm really happy for that book. It's the fall. I should get a check the next couple of weeks. That'll help pay for Christmas stuff. Love that book. It's actually a really good book. I still read my own book. and it's like, what do you do with a 19-year-old boy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really good. There are stories in there that David tells about him that are my kids. There's stories that I tell about me that are his kids. Yeah, yeah. There's stories that we kind of like are compilation stories because it was time for a story.

38:07Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. And I told the last story, so it was his time to tell this story. Yeah. That doesn't mean the book's not true. Right. It just means it's for the audience. Yeah. These poems were for me. Yeah. They were me figuring out my marriage. They were me figuring out parenting. They were me figuring out God. They were me wrestling with my own soul. They were me dealing with trauma. It's a lifetime of my own intimacy. Done in art, right? So to put that out there felt like naked. So I printed a few copies, and I would go to friends, and I would say, this is for you, and here's what it is. And this is for you, and here's what it is.

38:48and some of them, some of my friends said, well, let's read these. And so I would sit on some front porches and have some conversations and some tears, and some people would ask, well, tell me about this line. I was like, oh, God, please don't ask about that line. That line's about – it was wonderful. It was beautiful. Yeah. And then I got a call from a mutual friend of ours, Drew Holcomb, one night. And Drew was like, hey, are you busy? We're the two of y 'all in a room. I would really enjoy watching. Well, this was interesting. It's like, yeah, there's a lot of energy when that happens. A lot of rightness is what's going on there.

39:21A lot of opinions. Yeah. It's like an arm wrestling match. We call that intimacy. He called me and said, hey, what are you doing? And I said, well, I'm having dinner right now. He goes, call me back in 10 minutes. I was like, okay. Leaving the restaurant. He's up here at a piece, and I'm leaving. I call him, and he goes, hey, I want to play something for you. And I was like, okay. Because he sometimes will send me a song or something. And he's playing this song. I'm like, hey, that's my poem. He was like, yeah. I said, dude, that's so sweet that you would sit down and write a poem. He goes, hey, dummy, this song releases tomorrow, and I need you to click.

39:54You don't read email, and we've been sending you this email to sign up for ASCAP or whatever so we can release the song.

40:04Jon McLaughlin:That's amazing. How did you feel? I was floored. I was like, well, that's like – and he got Ellie on the phone, and she's laughing at me. It was in her way that's infectious and big and welcoming. And it was like, oh my gosh. What's his song called? Carry the Water. Oh, yeah. Wow. It's kind of a ballad. It'll never be a big – he goes, I said, this is awesome. He goes, hey, it's never going to be a big song. It's a sad song. This is not one of my ballad anthem songs. It's like, this is just a sad song. It's like, it is a sad song. But it came out of that book. That's so cool. And I've had some other people go, this inspired me to do this.

40:41and that was never the point.

40:42Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. Right? I would have thought my worry, if I were you, Oh, great. I haven't thought of this worry yet. Yeah, let me hit you with this one. Would be like that it would change the way that I feel about them by putting them out and having friends, you know. But as you're talking about it, I'm like, and like sitting with friends and going through them, I'm like, well, maybe this is like you get to read them and experience them on a deeper level now in a way that you couldn't have just on your own. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Which is really cool. There's a certain dialectic that's happening there. Yeah.

41:21Where we're discovering something together. Yeah. And someone can see part of themselves and part of me, which feels really meaningful. Mm-hmm. You know? Another thing I did is I bought this building here in town and redid it, and it's like a meeting space, an event space for my business, and other people. It's called Hardison House. But I wanted to create a candle for a scent. Oh, wow. So I got with Ranger Station and worked with them on a custom scent for my building. That might be the best thing I've ever created. Like people, you could only get it at Hardison House, and we get phone calls from people.

41:58You should have brought those. I know. I was going to, but I was running late. I'll get you the candles. But people are like, this is like a great candle. Like where could I get the candle? One guy wanted to white label it and sell it. I was like, that's my candle. Right? You have so many people turning your things into other things. The best thing I've ever created is a candle. Uh-huh. Right? It's like, who knew? That's me being weird. Like, just trying to get weird and go like, well, what can I do next? I want to create a candle. You know what it sounds like you associate weird with is creative.

42:27Okay. Yeah. I know. What is your definition of weird? I'm like, this just feels like you're being creative. So I'm learning I'm a creative. Yes. Like, I'm actually a creative. Yeah. Yeah. And once I've been doing that creative work inside of like social entrepreneurism. Yeah. Right. And that's part of the creative is like we started this whole conversation like eight years. Like as soon as it gets built, I'm done creating it. Yeah. Yeah. So I've learned to find really good partners that are much better at developing the thing and maintaining and stewarding and growing the thing so I don't have to destroy it to go create the next thing.

43:01Yeah. So, you know, Sage Hill Counseling is now Beth Christenberry, Sarah Norris, Cresson Hoagland, and Benton Tatum are my partners in there, right? And they – Sarah's the executive director. Cresson's the clinical director. And they're so much better at that than I ever was. I should never, ever, ever manage anybody, ever. I'm so bad at managing people. And people need good managers, right? And so that was like me learning to go, I'm just going to create things. and then other people can do with them what they do with them. This leadership book I wrote on these four ancient archetypes of leadership, I wrote for the members of council leadership.

43:44I didn't write it for the general population. I didn't write it to get attention. It's not good for me to participate in the attention economy. There are people who are really good at it. You do a great job at it. I've had to get off, largely get off all social media and news feeds. That's not good for me. It robs me of my spirit. And so I very rarely am in social media or in the news anymore because they exist to occupy my consciousness and monetize it for Mark Zuckerberg's pocket. So it's like I've just had to get off. Because I'm not boundaried enough to not be all in something. And that's just me.

44:23Wherever I go, I'm all in it. So if I go to a concert, I'm dancing in the aisles. You know, it's like, that's just, that's who I am. It's really, the older I get, the more I realize this. It's really interesting. I'll say it weird because you're with us. It's weird work. It's really weird. Well, it's weird work for all of us when we think of who are of our identities. Because I think the beautiful part of it is you really start to go, gosh, I love doing this thing. And when I do it, it seems to really like bless people. Yeah. And I have like untappable reservoirs for it. Yeah. I can just always do it because that's who I'm made to be, right?

45:00The thing that's hard about it, though, is it means you're not other things. And I think – What's hard about that for you? What you just said about your staff. Oh, yeah. I can't – like, you know, you have a friend that's like, every time he does that, it is magic. Yeah. And I think work I've had to do is like being like having faith to go, God, that's okay. Yeah. Because I can't – Oh, it's necessary. It's necessary. We're actually better when we're together than we are in isolation. And so it's like my gifts complement your gifts, and your gifts speak to my gifts. And then the whole thing is an ecology of love and beauty and goodness, and it all overflows.

45:35The minute we start trying to grab and hold it back, the table gets small. Yeah. Right? And so it's like, how can I then turn over my gifts to other people's giftedness? That's where wisdom comes in, because some people want to use people's gifts for their own benefit. And some people don't know what to do with the gifts, or they compare your gift to them, and they go into their own shame. And it's like, I don't need to do that. Like, I don't, you know? Well, it's that. That's the piece I think that I've found is realizing that the shame that a company is going, well, I should be able to do that too.

46:03Why can't I do that? Yeah. And going, no, no, no. Well, I couldn't slam dunk a basketball. Yet. No, no. See, this is, so I was not a terrible athlete. I was a division one athlete, scholarship athlete. I was all conference. These are facts. These aren't bragging. I was two-time team MVP. I got a watch. You kind of gave me a watch. Like, you got a watch. That's cool. That's like an award. Like, I was a goalkeeper, which is ridiculous because I'm 5 '9", and I can't jump. I was just crazy and mean and yelled at people and fairly athletic. But I thought if I could slam dunk, I'd be better. I worked for six years with the basketball coach in high school, and then for like two years in high school and two years in college, learning for two years.

46:52I don't do math. I don't do spelling. I have no math. Two years in high school and four years in college trying to slam dunk a basketball. I can't slam dunk a basketball. Did you get better? I could touch the rim. That's amazing. That wasn't the goal. That's a good one. So did I improve my vertical leap? Yes. Right? Here's another version of that story. I did some work with the National Soccer Club for several years as a middle performance coach and consultant. When Gary Smith got let go, I got let go, which is wonderful. like a big fan of Gary's. And I was talking with one of their players, and he was not doing great.

47:31And he was having a hard time. He had hit his ceiling, and everybody could feel that he was not going to go on further. And he was not ready to accept that. And so he and I were having a conversation. And I was telling about the day that I realized that I was in semi-pro soccer. and I was the third string goalkeeper and my job was to pick up the balls and that means in semi-pro soccer you don't get paid. You only get paid if you play. And I wasn't going to ever play and I was like, hmm, I'm done. They're so much better than me. And I said that was a hard and liberating thing for me. And he goes, well, you shouldn't have quit.

48:17You should have kept trying. And I was like, dude, dude, like I was done.

48:23Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. And it was done with me. And then if I hadn't have quit, I wouldn't have gotten married. I wouldn't have had children for me. So it's like understanding even necessary endings create space for new creativity, that everything must die so that something new can live, that life, death, and resurrection are the very nature and the fabric of the universe. And so when we try to hold on to make things stay the same, we're actually moving against the very nature of the design of the universe. Jeez. Yeah. Right? And so there's this joke that insanity is doing the same thing over and again, expecting different results.

49:03I think that's the wrong definition. Insanity is trying to maintain the status quo in an ever-changing universe. Yeah. Right? It's like we're supposed to continue to unfold. That means things must die. Things must end. Everything ends. Everything is temporary except what's not temporary. And that's sad and that's painful. It's also not just sad and painful. Right? And so that's all part of it, right, of identity transformation. It's like what am I letting go of so more of Dave can shine. And others can be who they are. And others can please be who they are. I'm not taking their space too. No. You know?

49:42Yeah. And you take a lot of spotlight.

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51:28John. Dave. Can I pick a subject that we talk about right now? Please. Bed sheets. Go. Just say whatever you're thinking. Say whatever you're thinking.

51:35Jon McLaughlin:Because I feel so passionately about this. Okay, okay. You know what I don't like? What? Tell me. Bad bed sheets. Hashtag. Okay? When the corners won't stay put, the fabric's super thin, you can practically see through it. When they're scratchy. Scratchy, yes. Oh, you wake up like in all hours of the night. You're too hot. You're uncomfortable. It's miserable. It is. John, if your sheets are thinning, slipping, or overheating, that's your sign it's time to upgrade to Bowl & Branch. I knew that's where you were. Bowling Branch's signature sheets are made from 100 % organic cotton. Yes. And are designed to hold their shape, unlike me in college, stay breathable, and feel luxuriously soft every night.

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52:52Jon McLaughlin:Exclusions apply.

52:57I'll never forget when we, I mean, And Annie and I have spent a lot of time with you, and you've helped us so much. And me. But I'll never bring you. I mean, you had so many things that you helped us with that you said that live as soundbites in my eyes. But one of the funniest ones was we were kind of talking about something, you and I. And I was talking about our kids, and they were kind of getting to the age where the little personalities were coming out. And I was like, you know what's funny, man? They're all pretty chill and whatever. And you're like, Dave, there's not a lot of room in the Barnes house for new personalities.

53:26I was like, touche, good man. So here's a question I have for you. Oh, it's true. It is true. It's true. Here's the question I have for you with what you just said, because I think that's so beautiful. How is that iterated into having kids? So you talk about like, you know, changing, changing. You know, when I saw you at Dobine's 50th, we were talking about this and you were saying like, hey, it'd be fun to talk about this with y 'all. Oh, gosh. Empty nesting. and because so empty nesting like i love my wife we actually are really into each other we're on our fifth marriage to each other yeah but we just keep reimagining marriage this one's a lot about heather and that's really new for both of us wow so we're learning about that and i'm like letting there be more room in the first place in the house for her she's learning for there to be more space and her life for her, right?

54:18That's great. What's not so great is these beings that you've poured so much into. You've loved so deeply and you've sacrificed so much for without any expectation that there would be a return, really. Like the joy has been loving them and enjoying them. One day they walk out and don't think about you at all. which what they're supposed to do

54:47Jon McLaughlin:yeah that's the win it doesn't feel like winning though it is the win thank you but man it feels like gut wrenching and it feels hurtful and it feels like what did we do the last 25 years like what was it all for and one of the things I learned and if I could go back because there was a few years ago maybe a month or two ago even as close as last week maybe this morning I was like I want all my parenting books off the market like I want them all off the market because I'm giving these people false hope because the people that buy a parenting book are looking for a way to make it work yeah it don't work yeah like it doesn't work and so knowing what I know now the pain that I'm in now the grief because they're all out of the house are they they kind of yeah they kind of yeah a light for moments and then they're gone they still have a key yeah But a wise man said to me that it's actually good parenting to have a place for someone to come get bored in.

55:51Wow. And then when they need to go off, they'll go off. They need to come back and come back. I was like, okay. Wow. Well, just eat as many of my Froot Loops as you want to eat then while you're there. You know what doesn't help, I bet, honestly, is living in Nashville because it's such a great place. Yeah, my kids don't think so. They don't want to be here. Oh, they don't? Oh, no. It's home. Okay. So I've got one in Chicago. I got another that wants to be in Chicago because that's where he went to college. I've got one in Knoxville. I've got another one in Chicago. We don't have any connection to Chicago except two of my kids had scholarships fall from the sky from Chicago.

56:23So they don't see Nashville. They see Nashville as like home. It's small. Okay. It's not cool. Because they're used to bigger cities. And they want to be – it's like people literally are moving here every day because it's cooler than Chicago. Well, I just wonder if they would come home as much if you lived in Cookville. God bless Cookville. We love our Cookville listeners. Now that I said that, we are such fans of Cookville. Cookville's a good town. But you know what I mean? It's right on the plateau. It's beautiful up there. It's both Middle Tennessee and East Tennessee. I just spent a lot of time in Cookville.

56:49Terrible. Did y 'all mean Tennessee? I mean Cookville, Alabama. Idaho. It's so, like right now, it's like I want to pull the books off because it's like part of me was writing those books to make up for some things I didn't get. and to try to offer parents a way to navigate it and hopefully it wouldn't hurt so much. And I'll tell you, love really hurts. Nazareth taught us that. Love hurts. That's good. That's good. That's a good song. It really hurts. And it's heartbreaking to watch your children's heartbreak. It's heartbreaking to see them go through life and to know that they're actually doing everything in their 20s that they're supposed to do.

57:41And a lot of it's about losing, and a lot of it's about becoming, and a lot of it's about learning and growing. And if I was to rescue them from their journey in that, I would be robbing them of their dignity in order to protect my heart.

57:56Jon McLaughlin:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So hard to not do that. It's so hard to not hate them for me not doing that. I don't blame them. It's hard, man, to stay out of their way. I think if I was doing it over again, I think I would brainwash them to worship me. I would put them in a really small setting where everything was certain and right, called a private Christian school, where there was no questions, nothing bad ever happened. And then they could hate me when they were 30 like everybody else. Right, and they can figure out why. Just buy you some time. Buy me some time, which is a joke, right? But it's also kind of like there's no way outside of the heartache.

58:42And I really thought there could have been. I really thought if I was a good enough parent that I wouldn't have to feel what I'm feeling now. And I've got enough wisdom. And they're doing – my kids are – They're developing human beings. They're not kids. They're actually all adults. And I remember 15 to 30 being one of the most difficult experiences of my life. And so I keep telling myself, well, whatever I'm feeling, it's probably 10 times harder for them. Because going through middle school, high school, identity formation in your 20s, trying to find sure footing in the world, trying to build friendships after college, where it's like you had all these friends and now they've gone everywhere else.

59:30And it's really hard, especially right now in the world where Amazon fired 40 ,000 people yesterday. White-collar jobs are going away. That doesn't mean that much to me at 50 because I've built a life. But if you're 22 and you don't see hope and the story, the script of following the rules you've been on is now being pulled from you, they're in despair. And I have nothing to offer them because it's their despair. Me saying, it's going to be okay. I took one of my sons out to dinner and we went to a really nice steakhouse here in Nashville, went to Bourbon Steak and it was his college graduation.

1:00:16You've done it. You're about to go into your last semester. Congratulations. Heather came, and it was like this really nice thing. And somebody – it was so nice. It was so – we were like, hey, get whatever you want to get. Don't look at the – just order all the food. And a friend of ours saw us there, and he came over and said, what are you all doing? We're having his dinner. He paid for our meal. So I was like, oh, my gosh. This is awesome. I remember telling my son, I was like, hey, hey, I just want you to know you got what it takes. You're going to be okay. And you've made the right way. And he's like, hey, easy for you to say.

1:00:57You've already figured it out. I was like, oh, that's a good point, buddy. And he was telling the truth. And he was like, I'm scared to death about life. And because he's grown up in our home, he has the ability to say things like that. Like he has at least enough self-awareness and connection and trust that he can say, shut up, dad. Thanks for dinner. Like it's not helpful. He actually said it feels like pressure. You're telling me it's going to be okay because now it has to be okay. And I was like, oh, just slap me around some more bourbon steak. Like it was – and so I'm learning a lot as a parent.

1:01:33Shut up. Listen. Let them learn and grow. They're writing their own story. Yeah. They're creating their own identity. And I'm realizing now looking back, my daughter is teaching me, like she's 25, that she was doing that when she was like 20 months old. Yeah. That she was deciding things inside her head about her life in response to where she was being loved. Like she said to me a few years ago, I used to think when you asked me, hey, what are you thinking about, that I had to tell you. And when I was like six, I realized, I'd have to tell you what I was thinking about.

1:02:15I was just asking, what are you thinking about? She saw it as like, you're trying to take my identity. It's like, wow. And so what I've realized now in having these awesome kids and being a father who's thoughtful and trying to be more self-aware is we're given the pen to author our identity a whole lot earlier than we have any of the wisdom to know what we're doing.

1:02:44Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. Like we're giving the keys to the car before we're giving you how to drive. Yeah. And we can't call that bad because that is the way of things. That is the way of things. It is written, like go, right? I think our culture since 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and a lot of it was well-meaning, and a lot of it was part of the psychological industrial complex. A lot of the parenting stuff was driven by a guy named James Dobson and some other people who were well-meaning, trying to give parents this thing that was coming out of psychology that if you put the right inputs in, you get the right outputs out.

1:03:23And people aren't products. People aren't machines. People are things. They're creative beings. They're in the image of God, so they're authoring things. And now it's like I don't know that it would change my parenting. I just know it's like it hurts. And my children have to hurt in order to become something. And it breaks my heart as a witness to that. And that's where I am. It's like nothing's wrong with that. It just is. And so I guess I would say if you – this is what the research shows. Psychological research shows that if you want to be happy, you want to have a happy life as your goal, do not get married and do not have children.

1:04:05Yeah. Because that will be happy. Your life will then be meaningless. This is all research. This isn't an opinion. This is scientific research, whatever that means. But it's like happiness is me pursuing my own delight. Meaningfulness is me suffering for a cause greater than myself with other people. And there's no better place to experience that within family. Because it's like, man, do you leave the toilet seat up? Well, I think it's pretty convenient for me to leave the toilet seat up. But I have a wife, and she has opinions about that. Let me tell you, an Ebenezer moment of my marriage that I will never forget is one night I had gotten up to pee.

1:04:49And I'm telling you, I've done this three times in my marriage where I forgot to put it down because Annie just onboarded me. She's very right. She has a lot of rightness in her. and she's good at pointing out when people don't live up to those standards. And her standards are really good. Yeah. Now, as you said, this is another Stephen James point that Annie and I will laugh about. We met, I think one of the first times I've ever met with you, you go, you know, guys, you go, I meet with a lot of couples and usually you have the planet and then you have the planet that orbits the planet. He goes, both of you guys don't orbit.

1:05:28You just sit as planets. we think we have first two first children with very strong personalities yes but yeah i will never by the way she's gotten god is doing a great work in her as he continues to be faithful to do she's amazing but i will never forget the sound that night i just peed and one of the five times in our marriage i forgot to put i thought it was three days well it's just grown seven times the story is getting more truthful every other night i forget to do the toilet seat she went to be She never does. She got up to use the bathroom right after I did, and the sound of her sitting into the toilet and the way she said my name, I don't think I slept for three nights.

1:06:10It was just blazed into my brain. So if you're going to live with somebody, you're going to make mistakes. That's exactly right. You're also going to be blessings to each other, and that's so much more meaningful than happiness. Happiness comes and goes like the weather. You have to chase it, And it's like, you know, we know through human experience that family, parenting, marriage is one of the most meaningful and difficult and rewarding things a human can ever do. Right? And not everybody gets to do it. That doesn't make it like the only way to find meaning. Sure. It's just like wrought with it.

1:06:49Yeah. Right? Because it's self-reflective. It just shows you who you are. If you're paying attention, it shows you who you're not. It's like, it's weird. It's just really weird. Creative. So with your kids, when they're coming home, John and I say this all the time on this podcast, but when your kids are coming home... They would tell me my home is where I live. Oh, somewhere else. When they come to your house. When they come to my house. What makes them want to do that or feel safe doing that? Money. What is it that you guys have created? as a couple uh heather heather gets most of the credit yeah um i get some of the credit she gets most of the credit the kids get a little bit of credit uh dogs get a lot of credit yeah they come home to see the dog really uh they also come home to i think to remember like that that they're part of something i think they come home to rest um i think we've got one at university tennessee He is crushing college.

1:07:55Like, he's, like, name what college is about. And he's this, I mean, he's got friends. He's halfway going to class and making good grades. He's realized that football is like, whatever. I'm going mountain climbing and rock climbing. And, like, he is loving his experience. Wow, that's great. He hasn't been home one time this fall. Wow. Yeah. He's got his apartment in Knoxville. So guess where he lives?

1:08:19Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. Knoxville. Yeah. See, when I hear you say that and describe that in the stage of parenting that I'm in right now. You're like, I can't wait. Well, no, it's not that. Because empty nesting is actually something that I think about all the time. Yeah. And always have because I've sort of, you know, I just don't want Amy and I to be those people who like the door shuts and then we're like, who are you? But when I hear you say that, I'm like, what you just described, if I could just know that we're going to get there with my girls, like if I could just know that one day I'm going to be saying that to my friends, it would make the valleys of parenting now so much more bearable.

1:09:05Jon McLaughlin:You know what I mean? I would trade everything I'm going through right now to live in those valleys again. Yeah. That's what I don't think y 'all know. It's really hard raising middle schoolers. It's like, oh my gosh, that's like a shame tank of pimples and puberty. I was in that band in high school. Shame tank. We were great. What was their first album? They didn't do albums. They felt the most shame about that. We actually never released music. That's how shame it was. But it was something. Now I'm living on the memory tanks, man. It's like, remember that time? And Heather and I, literally like old people sitting around going, remember that time we made pancakes for breakfast with the kids?

1:09:51And it's like, how old are we? We have a life to live.

1:09:53Jon McLaughlin:I gotta say, I don't know that there's anything more that buoys my sails. Is that the right way to say that? Yeah, buoys your sails. They're both nautical imaging. We're on a ship. Yeah, you're on a ship. The boat's afloat. The ship is going. Then that. hearing somebody say I just want to be back there because I know Dave and I are in the thick of it right now and all the they're never going to put their dishes away they're never going to pick up the things whatever rapper I've started taking pictures of just rappers on the ground just text them but you know what kids don't do they just drop these rappers children today don't feel responsible for answering a text.

1:10:37That's like, I'm weird for asking to answer a text. That's not a cultural norm, Dad. I have friends don't respond to text. a phone actually rings and that's why, the function of a phone is for phone calls. There's this other thing it does. It's not a text box.

1:10:50Jon McLaughlin:Right, right. But I mean, being in the state that I'm in right now, where, you know, it just, it's really helpful to hear that. Because I believe it. It wouldn't be helpful if I didn't believe it. All my kids pay their rent. Yeah. Right. My son was home and I was doing the dishes and without saying a word, he starts putting dishes away. Oh, wow. It's like, oh, he's an adult. Yeah. That does happen. Yeah. For most of them, some of the time. You know, you're gonna get there. Yeah. Don't wish away where you are for the fantasy of where it's gonna be because I'm telling you, it's as good as it gets right now and the 70-year-old version of Stephen is telling the 50-year-old version of Stephen, hey, this is as good as it gets, man right right like enjoy it yeah you know what i realized it was helpful for me because like y 'all were and john and i are now you know so much of our life you know we're just basically like parent ubers you know what i mean we're shuffling kids places whatever but i had this revelation and i think this podcast one of the gifts it's been to me is these conversations because i think it has made this futuristic mind of mine it's always like what's the next best thing fun thing where are we going going you know what else am I going to do what else am I going to do what what is it that you need to do other than sitting and watching your kid have soccer practice like what is that and I'm like I don't know and I'm like there's nothing this is it like enjoy because and I think one of the gifts of this podcast to me is when we had parents that are further along than we are is that is as John said that's the thing I hear and I think finally I'm getting it where I'm like man I'm so excited about tonight and Halloween watching the kids walk around I'm so sad just come join us and be the creepy be weird we did that last year did you really we followed a family I love that they didn't know us I was gonna say that's where it gets a little problem find that same family true story no that was not hyperbolic oh my gosh y 'all just were like they're cute oh they're a thing let's just follow them look how cute that little tiger is we hung back a little bit we were walking the dog yeah yeah right now but i was stalking this sweet little family in east nashville it was so sad but you know but to be for me to realize like you said it so well this this this really is the best and it will continue being the best but i think once i sort of dispelled this notion of there was something else i should be doing i was like no this is this is what i want to be doing yeah like i mean that's my favorite we talk about this all the time but that's one of my favorite things with annie in the morning is i I go, hey, what's my afternoon look like?

1:13:29She's like, all right, you're going to, and then I'll meet you. And I'm like, great, great. And it's so rare. Yeah, it's so rare that I'm ever like, I'm like, no, this is, I love that. Let's go do this. What else am I going to do? Like sit back here and work on, I've worked on music. I'm done with that. Like I can do that some other time. Like where are we going to go? Great. I'll be there. You know, because I'm like, it's going to go. And I'm going to look back someday and be like, why don't you sit in your studio? Like go to the practice, go to the game. like drive them over to the mall. I'm working all the time now.

1:13:59Like literally work or whatever. Yeah. You know, it's like, because I got time. Yeah. I got energy and time. Yeah. And I love what I do. Yeah. And I have the privilege to actually do a job that I love. Yes. It's like, what an honor. What a, what a, wow, that's so cool. And so I just, I mean, I've, yeah. Like. There'll be time for that. I wish I could, wish I could go to story time. I wish there was. Like, I wish I missed more lunches to go read more books at school. I wish I was at more pickups. And I was at a lot. but I wish I was at Moore. I wish, man, we say it all the time, like the good old days.

1:14:34And so you're going to do what you're going to do and then you're going to regret it. That's just the way it goes. That's your next book. You're going to do what you do and you're going to regret it with Stephen Jay. You know,

1:14:47Jon McLaughlin:when I was listening through... Three pages. When I was listening to our old episode that we did, it was interesting what I definitely remember. As I said before, there are things that you've said that have been like mantras almost in my life since. I've got to come back here more often. Yes, sir. This is awesome. It's interesting some of the things I was telling Dave before you got here that I sort of sifted through because I wasn't there yet in parenting. I think at that time, I was so hungry for... for I needed somebody to tell me what to do. Am I doing it right? Like I can remember some of the things that I would daily worry about.

1:15:32Jon McLaughlin:I remember going to bed on a nightly basis thinking, I don't think I did a great job today. And I don't feel that way anymore. And some of the things that, one of your big takeaways was like, it's just be with your kids. Like you're saying, you're going to do what you're going to do, and you're going to regret it. If you're growing, you're going to regret it. They just want to know if you're going to be there. They just want to know, are you going to be there? They already know that you don't know what you're doing. I got a question for you then. This is cool. What is it right now that you're going, like there's a piece of wisdom emerging in you that you already know about if you paid attention to it that you're going to recognize like five years from now?

1:16:18What's coming up in your life as a dad right now that's like, oh, I really need to pay attention to that one.

1:16:28Jon McLaughlin:I mean, I think that it is the thing that you said last time you were here that I didn't really pay attention to, which is just there is no doing. Stop trying to be a productive parent. Stop trying to do this well. Just be with your kids. Just be with them. How old are your kids? 12 and 10. You've got about 14, 15, they disappear. Yeah. It really is about being with them on their terms too. Another thing that I think has been helpful in me wrapping my brain around that. Those are great weird ages too. 12 and 10 are some strange times. Things are changing. They are changing. But one of the things that's helped me wrap my head around that, the just be with them, is I think I've finally realized the limitation of my influence on them.

1:17:30Jon McLaughlin:Wow, that's a great way to put that. It's like realizing you're third string and you're not going to make the team. And now I can move on to my real self or whatever. Or the next thing. Yeah. So when you say that, I wonder, like, so if they're, and this is where we started the whole conversation, it's amazing. If I'm realizing I'm not the main influence on them, I wonder what is inside them, right? And I wonder how I'm letting them influence me. Like, how are they then being... Vessels for sanctification. Oh, that's an old-time word. Sure. I would say, how are they inspiring me? Because the hope and optimism of a 10 and 12-year-old, the beautiful naivete of how they see the world, that's all about to go away.

1:18:26They actually see the world for more of what it really is than adult cynicism and pragmatism. Their hopes and dreams and the drama of like, you have a girl, right? Two girls. The drama of 12-year-old girl friendships. That's like, I mean, it's so not fair and so fun to watch. And it's like life and death. You don't need Netflix at all. You have two daughters. It's like, what happened today? Yeah, it's true.

1:18:59Jon McLaughlin:It's true. Yeah, I think that would be so cool. God, to have another 12-year-old daughter would be wonderfully hard and great because then you have a third. The problem with a 12-year-old daughter is you're going to have a 13-year-old daughter. I mean, we're about five weeks away from it, six weeks away. And then you'll have a wife. If you're lucky, you'll have a wife and two daughters at some point all synced up on their menstrual cycle. And I would just recommend there's going to be a time a month where you're going to be on the road that you're just going to travel. Amy's like, I'm noticing the third week is you have shows.

1:19:39Jon McLaughlin:Your agent seems to be also on the same cycle as us. That's a beautiful mystery, that women who would live with each other would actually enter into the fabric of life, death, and resurrection together every month, every lunar cycle, that their body is moving with something so profoundly spiritual that they can't control their own affect. Like, I'm not downing women on PMS. I'm just saying if men if you don't have a perspective of dear God there's something other going on here you're not paying attention yeah right because they're moving through the very thing oh there's Annie right there eating peanut butter this is what a great visit oh hi and so you've got three women they're gonna teach you about life death and new life every 28 days for four or five years at the same time.

1:20:38Jon McLaughlin:That's something. And I mean, that in and of itself is a little micro example of how painful life is. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's this gift. It's life. It's life. It is life. And it is painful for them every month. In Western culture, since we're doing the philosophical, which is what I love to talk about, the weird philosophical stuff, So Western culture has been really adept at productivity and efficiency and shiny things. We have sold our soul in order to do that. Yeah. And we have lost track with the beauty of pain, like the suffering that's necessary for sanctification, but the suffering that's actually necessary for life.

1:21:23Yeah. And we call it bad as opposed to embrace the pain of this normal living. Yeah. well I think too like I think a thing I'm starting to understand is like most wisdom comes through pain like real real wisdom 100 % and I think there's sometimes we can sort of draft you know somebody will tell us something and we go oh actually I think I can onboard that without me having to experience it yeah but I think that's you can't but you know but I think real wisdom that we actually live by usually comes from yeah

1:21:54Jon McLaughlin:well how many how many great songs would we have if there was no pain in the world yeah Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We have Hey Ya by Outkast. Hey Ya, and I would say the Rainbow Connection. Those are my, that's going to be. But that song works because it's written in a sad way. Yeah. That's why that song works. Yeah. It sounds sad. You know, have you ever sang Don't Worry, Be Happy in a slow, sad way? Oh, yeah, it's sad. It's beautiful, too. Here's a little song I wrote. You might want to sing it No footnote Why did Johnny Cash do that on that record? Don't worry Be happy It's like so sad Yeah Right?

1:22:39But that's why Rainbow Connection works as a song Because it's not poppy It's the juxtaposition It's the juxtaposition of grief and beauty and joy All in one innocent kid's song And Kermit singing it And Kermit Sounds so innocent And you know If you had Joe Cocker had sang that It'd be like, I don't know

1:22:57Jon McLaughlin:I was thinking earlier, though, when you were talking about just being and the I am and whatever comes out, you know, all of that. And I was thinking, obviously, America is the is like the worst country to live in if you're trying to live out what you were describing. I wonder what culture is the closest to like, like, if you wanted to have an environment that's going to help you out and living in that way. Where do you go? Is there some place you can go that's like the most? No. No. I think we can particularly talk about ours and where we've gotten it off. Yeah. I think every human group that creates culture, right, is cultivating out of – the word culture comes from the word dirt.

1:23:45So that's an interesting thing. So we're building something out of dirt. We tend to build things in our own image. Yeah. Right? And all of them are going to be incomplete. and the ones that are done thoughtfully are done like at least what's got some good things in them I would think I do think places that are more connected to nature to the natural order are more in tune with things I think more agrarian is better than more industrial I think we're learning now if we're paying attention that we've been through the I can get really esoteric. You probably want to edit this out. We've been through this whole industrial revolution that's carbon-based, and now we're going through a silicone revolution, which is like AI and computer chips and all that stuff.

1:24:36If AI doesn't kill us, which there's a really good chance that it's going to. It's going to wipe out humanity. Edit this out, Dadville. If it doesn't kill us... Lean into the sadness. Don't run from it. Are you talking about Terminator 2 right now? Yeah. That was a prophetic movie. If it doesn't, and there's some really smart people talking about all the ways that it can. If it doesn't, it will cure a lot of cancer. Right? It will not create anything because AI cannot create. Right. It will find efficiencies in things that we've not seen. It will out-predict us in every way. So math, accounting, all that stuff is just done.

1:25:20Right? And it can create room for human creativity to abound. But as you just said, human creativity and wisdom, which I think are probably like twin sisters in some ways, come out of largely pain. And so as long as we're looking for a way to make life just easier and more productive, we are going to end up foolish people. right and America's sin America's problem is our own hubris that that we think we have it figured out in the way other people don't yeah we we did do this thing this technological revolution called democracy was like a pretty big movement right and that came out of the Protestant Reformation and that came out of like some middle-class economic money lending that happened it's a whole thing that happened that led us to where we are.

1:26:17We even go back to like pre-Roman Empire with the Egyptians. There's a whole train of thought that we can follow. One of the things that we did is that we were like, hey, people with power tend to abuse their power, so let's create something that says the individual is really important. And no one individual is more important than another individual. That's the seed of who we are, is individual identity and independence to be an individual is the seed of what we are and that tyranny is bad and that if anybody gets power they're probably gonna like use it on people so let's create a governmental system that does not work on purpose so that that's bent towards liberating individual freedom that's awesome and a lot of great things have happened from that a lot of also not great things in that we think more independently than other cultures we think about our self-interest over the collective good.

1:27:11I was in Denmark this year. One of the cool things we did with our kids, we did a lot of traveling with our children growing up. I don't have a lot of retirement because we traveled the world with our kids. And I'm now going to work hard to replace that. One of the things we did last year is we took each of our adult kids on a trip. Wow. And my daughter wanted to see the Northern Lights. So we went to Norway. I wanted to eat some great food because I'm a foodie. So I wanted to go to Denmark first and go to some Michelin star restaurants. And they're really cheap. And the Michelin star restaurants in Denmark are actually not unaffordable, so it was awesome.

1:27:43Oh, wow. We got a tour guide one day. We're looking at, I'm a big architecture guy, so we're looking at architecture in Denmark. It's this really interesting city. We're old and new. We're like all on top. Yeah, yeah, like literally. Yeah, it's so cool. Like built on each other. And the tour guide is, anytime she saw trash, she starts picking it up. And people would stop to let other people cross the road. And the cars were driving the speed limit. And I just was like, She was a pretty really intelligent, aware art and architecture student at the university there. So we were having a coffee, and I was going like, have noticed all these things.

1:28:19Can you tell me what's going on? And she said, our number one drive is to make sure everybody's getting along, and we're doing what's good for the common good. And then if I – that's a mind blower, right? That's so un-American. Right. Right? I think thinking about what I need and what I want and having personal responsibility in my life is a really important thing. That's very American. Also, do I think about what my brother needs? And where we see that in America is most often in the most economically disadvantaged communities. Poor people in America give far more percentage of their income than rich people.

1:29:01Far more. Because they don't have the luxury of not sharing. Right? And so it's like, I think we, I am very fortunate to live where I live and get to do what I do. Very fortunate to be a man. I'm very fortunate to be white. Like there's a lot of head starts I was given. And, and like if I'm not becoming a kind of person that's looking for like how to help my neighbor, how do I just love my neighbor? Like what do I do to love my neighbor? and if everybody loved their neighbor, like the whole thing works. Yeah. Because I just got two people to love. Yeah. Right? And that's about the bandwidth that I've got anyway because I'm, like you, Dave, pretty narcissistic.

1:29:44So it's like if I could just love. Sorry, I didn't hear what you were thinking about. Yeah, I would think about yourself. So it's kind of like I would encourage all of us in the dadville world, like, man, like just do some spontaneous act of generosity. If it occurs to you to buy somebody a cup of coffee, just buy them a cup of coffee. If you see some trash, if you see it, pick it up because it helps somebody else, not because it helps you. I think that's the America corrective. Yes, we have independence and autonomy and rights. That's really important because most other countries don't have those things still.

1:30:19But what we don't have is we don't have an eye out for another person. And that's weird to me, that we'll walk over trash, that we won't let someone cross the street, that we think about consumption over being generative. And that leads to all kinds of ills. God, that's just a weird thing. I know we're talking about that today.

1:30:42Jon McLaughlin:That's a great point. I agree. I mean, my hope is that we will eventually see that it's not in our best interest to keep going in this hyper-individualistic way. Yeah. I hope so, too. So that feels like a great place to land the plane. Here's the question we have for you at the end. What is going on with you? Anything you want to tell people about or anything fun happening that they can check out? Today I am leaving here, going home, and I'm taking a son of mine to play golf this weekend. Oh, that's weird. We're going down to Alabama to play a couple of the Robert Trent's gym courses. That's amazing.

1:31:24And it's his birthday this week, and so that'll be fun. That's really meaningful to me. What role does golf have in your life right now? We discovered golf during COVID as a father-son activity. He's gotten pretty good at golf, so he just beats my ass at golf, which is fun for him. Which is fun for him. And I go along because I'm learning in golf as a spiritual practice. The less I care, the better my score.

1:31:52Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. And so I am a very competitive person, and my son will say, Man, as a guy who's been a middle performance coach for all kinds of world-class athletes, you are a head case on the golf course, Dad. Because I was just like, and that's not golf. So I'm just going to go not care and see what happens. That's today. People can come on to Alabama and watch you play golf tomorrow. I think professionally what's going on is this council leadership thing is really cool. We are really focused on being hyper-local in Middle Tennessee and helping leaders here. So if you're a leader and you want to be the best version of yourself at work and home, we've got a lot of different ways to help people.

1:32:34And that's exciting to me and figuring out how I can build an ecology. You know the Littlest Farm movie documentary? Do you all know about that? The Biggest Little Farm? I feel like I've heard that title. Oh my gosh. You've got to see The Biggest Little Farm. So these people bought – can we land the plane here? Yeah, let's do it. These people bought a farm in California, and they wanted to make this holistic organic farm like people do in California. And one of the owners of the farm was a National Geographic cinematographer. So he's doing slow motion video of flowers. Well, they found out if they want to do these trees, these organic apple trees without pesticides, they need to have ground cover, like grass.

1:33:16And if they're going to do that, then you're going to get slugs. and if you're going to do that you need to have ducks to eat the slugs oh it's like it's so over the course of a few years they built this ecology of like this whole thing that feeds itself and serves itself and it has to be small you can't industrialize it and you have to be thoughtful and responsive to it right so when i was transitioning out of sacheville counseling a few years ago and and moving to starting this thing with leaders i was like i saw that documentary It's like I want to build something that's small enough that it can sustain its own ecology of leadership for people, right?

1:33:55And that it can be responsive and can feed itself. And so over the last eight years, it's been like it started as this one thing. We've added this. We've taken away this. We've morphed it here. And we've done this. And so really trying to build a people so it's a community of members that are invested in their own growth and development because that's good for them to leave and go serve other people. If they're not growing themselves, they can't do what they're made to do in the world. So it's a people. It's a place. So we actually have a place. It's not virtual. You have a place with a fire pit and rooms and all that stuff, right?

1:34:28And it's a practice. That leadership is a practice that we're doing. It's another, like parenting, like being a doctor, you never really get good at it, but you have to keep practicing it because people depend on you in it. And leaders are the weird ones. The goal in life is not to become a leader, right? There's far fewer leaders than there are everybody else, right? But if you are a person of authority, influence, and responsibility, you need to learn to lead yourself. You need to practice mentoring and developing other people. And you need to understand what it means to lead a system. And most of leadership theory has been around system leadership and not how do I lead myself and how do I mentor and develop other people.

1:35:06And I've been working almost the last decade of building an ecology where those three things feed on each other with each other. and can hopefully one day become so sustaining that it's like, look what he did. And then maybe we'll start another one somewhere else. But the goal really is just to get this thing up and going. So if someone's interested in leadership, that's great. The book, Wisdom Within, is a take on these four ancient archetypes of leadership that people can get on Amazon. I think it's a pretty good book. It's probably not my best book. It's pretty good. I'm doing that. What else is going on?

1:35:42I've been writing a novel. about this guy going through a midlife crisis. Wow. So I've been working on that. That's been a lot of fun. I can't get past chapter four because I just really like writing chapters one, two, three. I've got it all outlined, but I'm really liking the fun part where the world falls apart. And then I wrote a treatment for a TV show about there's a moment in Nashville history that is like the Grand Ole Opry was at the Ryman, and then it moved to Opryland. And what was happening in that same time was like everybody was taking pills and using coke, right, getting drunk. All this stuff was happening.

1:36:31And then like in 1960, all that got illegalized. And then Nashville is like a songwriting town. And there's this whole thing about a character who was like the guy, except he was having an affair with the record label's daughter, who was like 17 at the time. He kills her in a drunk driving accident and goes to prison. And all this comes out on stage in the Grand Ole Opry. He comes back out, and he got sober in prison. and he's trying to find his way in Nashville being sober in 1965. And we got three guys, a friend of mine, Neil Hoppy and I wrote the treatment. We've got, we've had a couple of meetings and then the meetings go away.

1:37:21They have another meeting. It's such a cool story of sex, drugs and redemption. Wow. And the spiritual path of the 12 steps and how music and the artistry of song, it's called songwriter, it's called outlaw, But it's really about outlaw country music and the birth of outlaw country music and what was happening from country western to outlaw and Waylon and Johnny and Chris Christopherson and all the drugs and all the recovery and all the Saturday night, Sunday morning activity. Because that's like part of country music is like you go to the bar on Saturday night and church on Sunday morning. And all that's part of country music, right?

1:37:59And so we did this deep dive on the history of sex drugs and country music in Nashville and wrote this treatment about this guy and hoping to get that TV show made in the next couple years. That is cool. So that's what I'm doing. So if you're in, like, hey, CCA, I know you all have talked to us, but if you're at William Morris and that's interested in you, if you're with Netflix and you want to go ahead and greenlight this, you can find me and we have an agent. You can talk to our agent. that's great but that's like been really fun for me to take this work i did in the music industry with recording artists i've been i'm like the greatest green room guy ever like i've been in so many green rooms i'm like i know it's so fun to be in a green room and someone's like who are you i'm like i'm the guy you'll never know but i'm the guy everybody in the room knows but you so we're gonna meet one day it's like who was that guy well i can't tell you who that guy was it's like so fun but it's like having all those stories and go let's put them in one character who's destroyed his life.

1:38:59Yeah. And let's intersect him with people who are trying to find their way on the way. Oh, that's so cool. And can they make it? Can he and his wife, because he was married, and the son that she was pregnant with when he went to prison, he meets when he comes out of prison. I mean, the whole thing's a really sad country song. Like, it's awesome.

1:39:16Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. So I'm hoping to get that made. So if you know somebody who wants to fund that, like, we got the whole three years of stuff, all that stuff done, and we're just finding it. So that's all written. what I've learned about this is you write the first script ish then you really detail the first year but you have to plan the next three seasons you have to show them there's like a whole world here that's like develop you can develop right and so we've done all that and now we're just like taking meetings so that's amazing I'm open for meetings okay when you're not playing golf with your son not playing golf well thank you for being with us thanks for coming this is fun guys I can't wait five years from now let's do it again well actually seven okay seven seven years from now we'll do it again and I'll have a cane and y 'all your kids will be graduated and we can talk about all the stuff we should have said today that's right yeah

1:40:13dadville yeah

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