The 13-Year-Old Self Rule: Charlie Worsham on Success and Perspective

27:16Like, you just get such an amazing learning from that. Yes.

27:21Jon McLaughlin:And you see how to sort of craft a set list and how to keep a crowd going. Oh, this isn't making people dance. Yes. You know. Yes. That is a big part of it, too. What an education that is, you know. Okay. I want to skip forward a little bit here. One of the things that I would love to hear you, because you are such an anomaly in that you are just as good as an artist as you are a player so now in your life you know which we talked about it's so funny how much i told john i was like i feel like charlie's like the the country gabe dixon because you guys stories are so unbelievably similar like you know he was playing out at 15 his dad some of my favorite stories here gabe taught his dad like putting the leslie in the back of his van driving him to third and lindsley to be in the in the when he was 15 in the band he was in, you know, and like just that thing.

28:13But, you know, with you, how, what does that look like now to navigate the tension of that? Like you and your music that's so good and so compelling and your songwriting with your ability to play and how much people want you to play with and for them. Like, how do you navigate that now? You know, I've talked about it. It's been a while since I've talked about this, but it's, it's something that has stuck with me. One of the many things I'm trying to include in my personal toolkit, um, at just as a human being that I especially need now as a dad, um, because I'm learning like my great lesson in this moment is like, I can only be as good a dad or I can only be in as healthy of a dad dynamic and relationship as I am in my marriage.

29:01And I can only be as good in my marriage and as healthy in my marriage as I I am being for myself. Like it's the airplane mask thing. You got to put on your mask. Make sure you and your co-parent are both masked up. And now you can take care of your kids. But do it with limited resources. And one of the tools on the path to this current place I'm in, working on myself as a human, and it's through, God bless them, Al and Nita Andrews, but Al at Porter's Call, I developed what I call the 13-year-old self rule or theory or reset. And what it is is if I'm struggling with a moment or a day that's not gone the way I wanted or bad news or a disappointment in the career, I have to stop and take a breath and get in my mind and in my heart into a little room with 12, 13-year-old me.

29:59And I sit across from them and I go, hey, guess what you did today? you drove to Vince Gill's house, you interviewed him for a podcast, and then he asked you to play a banjo part on his record. And then you drove home, and you played Tom Petty songs for your son while y 'all played on the swing set in the backyard. And then after they went to bed, you did an overdub for a Lainey Wilson record, whatever it is. And inevitably, 13-year-old me hears that. Even the worst, like take the worst day of the year for 40-year-old me. 13-year-old me hears it and goes, what? Yes. That's so good. You are so not telling me that happened.

30:46And then practicing that, what I have learned is the deepest desire of my musical heart is simply to be able to afford the opportunity to wake up every day and make music and be creative in any capacity I can with collaborators who challenge me to be better. Wow, that's great. And as long as I can check that off the list, I am succeeding. Yeah. And that's a way different definition of success than the one that you kind of get handed when I signed a record deal years ago because then all of a sudden success is defined in a very narrow sense. Yeah. And it doesn't account for my musician's heart or my parenting heart or my love for travel.

31:33I mean, if I couldn't do this, I would want to be an Anthony Bourdain. And podcasting has been this sort of window into that for me, too. So, like, it's just the reframe of that. Yes, yes, yes. But that really is it. The concrete of the real dream. And granted, I also would watch the CMAs throughout my childhood and dream of being on the stage and winning the awards. But the real win at that age, the purest version of it was I just want to keep making music. And so I get to do that. And when I can remind myself of it, I always have a better rest of the day. It's just funny because I think you just have such an interesting affliction.

32:10It's like you're so good at so many things, which would be an interesting sort of burden in a great way. you know me because it's like you can just do so many things so well that you have the affliction of someone calling you and going dude can you please do this thing can you play the show can you do the tour can you and then also people like hey are you going to make more records like when are you playing your own shit like what a gift it is it's tricky it makes your life tricky is

32:39Jon McLaughlin:there is there like a sort of a hierarchy for them you know what i mean like if somebody came like we talk about this a lot Dave and I like if someone's says to me like dude I love your songwriting or something you know there's for me there there's a hierarchy of like if they're like dude I just love your voice you're a great singer that's like you know that's here on the list for me it's like I want them to say like I love your lyrics or like what a great player you are but there's like a hierarchy of it yeah do you have that in in your mind um man I wish that I could leave and come back four years ago and answer this or leave and come back in four years and answer this because I'm in a state of great transition right now.

33:22I mean, obviously I'm about to put out a record. I'm really excited about that. And in this moment, you know, if I could snap my fingers, that would be at the top of the hierarchy.

33:32Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. But in reality, what is keeping the wheels turning in the household requires all these other parts of it, which I also love. I mean, man, I'm spending this summer playing in Vince Gill's band. Like, I'm standing behind Stuart Duncan. Jeez Louise. I am next to Jed Hughes. You know, on the other side of Jed is Jimmy Lee Slose, the most recorded bass player alive today. You know, and like, then I get on a bus with these guys and we play records and listen to stories and laugh at jokes and, you know, Vince does some incredible impersonations of certain country singers. And so I'm just like laughing till my cheeks hurt.

34:12And then waking up and doing it again. And that's great. But there's also this hunger for, man, how cool would it be if this was my bus and I was playing at the Ryman six nights in a row, my whole material. So it's all relative. But it's also this interesting season where, you know, we've got a toddler at home and we've got a five-year-old at home who's about to go into kindergarten. and my role in my family is to go out and earn the money and to try to do that in a way where I can achieve the most balance possible. It looks very different from, but I was listening to the recent episode y 'all did with Ben Rector, has a lot of similarities in that way too.

34:54How do I take the values on this side, the personal side, and honor those? And how do I take these aspirations on the other side and juggle them all. Well, that's the next thing I wanted to ask you is how have you done that? You have this really robust music career and then you have these kids. Yeah. So how is the introduction of those kids to this marriage and career? What does that look like? Yeah, I mean, it's been chaotic and there have been moments where I really struggle, to be honest. And the reason it's hard to answer the question in this moment is, one thing I know, my songwriting has been the thing that has suffered the most in the last couple years.

35:31I just haven't. I think for me to feel safe to open up as a songwriter requires a certain amount of ritual that is only achievable for me right now if I wake up at 4.30 every morning and get that in before the kids are up. And it requires freedom from worry. They're all slow in mid-tempo. The artist's dilemma. Do what? They're all slow in mid-tempo. They're all a little groggy. But it's that artist dilemma that we know about, you know, that public professions create high levels of stress or abnormal life circumstances. Abnormal life circumstances cause high levels of stress. Unaddressed stress creates, you know, loneliness, addiction, anxiety, et cetera, et cetera, all of which are fatal to creativity.

36:25So I'm kind of trying and unable in this moment to clear that plate entirely to be purely creative as a songwriter. Yeah. And I'm sort of walking through each day acknowledging that and carrying that and grieving that a little bit. And at the same time, I'm living my dream. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really right now a little bit of survival mode, which is a weird thing to say when I know that I'm so blessed. um but like just get the next thing done you know and like find what i can where i can so it isn't ideal but it is a great gift when i am on the road especially with vents i have my own hotel room yeah from the moment i wake up until 3 p.m when we go to sound check and you also learn this when you become a parent like what did i do with all that time yes you know like from 10 a.m to 3 p.m i can make a record if i have to you know now yeah um so i find those pockets where i can and trust that in another three years everything yeah that's that's right right exactly right um but but honestly at the very same time i kind of for as hard as it was to be a multi-hyphenate for so long and how much it felt like it worked against me something has shifted in the last couple years and I think it works for me now.

37:47And I'm fortunate. I can turn down work. There's a period in anyone who comes to this town or into this industry's journey where you just kind of have to say yes to everything. You can't afford to say no. I'm in a stage where I can afford to say no. I can kind of get to play on records that are top tier and if they aren't I'm either too busy in my calendar to do them or I just can't afford to say, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to take that day with my family. Or I'm going to take that day and play a gig or write a song. But yeah, the struggle of it is just working with limited resources and having multiple things I want to do and not being able to do them.

38:28But the gift of it is, you know, if I could have only done an artist thing, I don't know that I would be able to provide for my family and still be doing this. and I also know for a fact I wouldn't have a CMA award on my shelf and that was a dream and getting that through the musician lane in some ways even means more to me because of the pure respect there and like I was in a category with freaking Paul Franklin you know and like he should have won like there was a part of me that was like I should really just give this to Paul no I'm not and thankfully he got it the next year But yeah, so it's really just this crazy thing of two things are true at the same time.

39:14Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do think there's a shift. One of the things that I hope in Nashville, and I think I'm seeing it real time for all of us as artists, is if you get lost in that old trajectory, if you're looking at James Taylor or these artists that we all grew up on, it can feel like, God, what would it be like to just be an artist? you know right like oh man i'm so jealous i wish that but but i think what i miss in that is that the gift of doing because all of us are all doing a million things now right like nobody's really just being an artist but the gift that i realized was man i actually like doing a lot of things i do too if i'm being honest yeah i think i would if i was just if my career was a in a place where i was just doing art street i would be so jealous of my friends that were doing podcasts or were like, you know, doing standup shows, I'd be like, I want to do that, but I can't.

40:09And so I think that's one of the gifts of where we all are these days is we actually get to, because the thing is we're like, John's not just a piano player. You're not just a guitar player. Like you were creatives that, that focus on, on yes, but we're creatives. Like it wants to get out all over the place to let it. And I think that's kind of one of the gifts to your point about being a multi hyphenate, which I love that phrase as much as anything, by the way, I'm stealing that.

40:33Jon McLaughlin:I think it's good for your soul and your character, too, to do what you have done. There are times where the spotlight is on you. You're center stage, and this is your show. This is your song. You wrote it. And then the next night, you're standing next to Vince, and your role is different. Which it takes a different... It takes not only a special kind of talent to get you in that spot, But also it takes the kind of character and ego or lack thereof to be able to fit into that role and be like, yeah, I'm not in the center of stage right now. Not everybody could do that. They might get the first call, but they might not get the next call.

41:20Jon McLaughlin:And like 10 years later, they're still getting called. Well, it's living multiple dreams at once. It is. and what's interesting Vince is this perfect example of that's exactly what he was for that era that's true Vince is that guy Pure Prairie League and over the years he produced records on other people he produced Ashley Monroe in more recent years he's been in other bands for other people and the Eagles the Eagles he's still doing a side gig and what there's no other way he could have done something like I mean that's short of the Beatles calling and saying, can you be our new John? Yeah. Like it's the coolest thing ever.

42:02And he still gets to play his shows. And because he's been a side guy, he's better at being the star. Exactly. And vice versa. That's why I think the Eagles called him. He said as much in conversations of, you know, he's like, I think they called me because I know how to be in a band. Well, I mean, one of the coolest stories that he tells, I think he told on Dadville, was where he was sound checking. Oh, yes, I remember listening. Whenever you come around or whatever. Was it the Paul McCartney one where he's singing Paul's songs? No, he was doing one of his. And Glenn, no, Don, came up to him and was like, what is that?

42:39And it's like early days. And he's like, oh, it's just one of my songs. He's like, you should do that in the show. And Vince said, I'm not doing that in the show.

42:46Jon McLaughlin:He's like, no one wants a Vince Gill song in the middle of an Eagles concert. And he said, I think I remember him saying, I think that was a big thing for Don to see. Like, oh, wow. Respect. Totally. Not that you know your place, but there's a humility to you. Well, that you see the bigger picture and you're going to serve me.

43:09That's how Don would have been. Will he kneel? He will. He stays. But yeah, I think those things. And that's the other thing that I think he said. I think that is such a valuable thing that you said is all of these things that we all get to do now really inform the other things so much. So much. And I think it provides humility for me. It provides interest for me. It gives me empathy for my friends and people that I work with. Because I think the artist thing is great, but it's very myopic. It's extremely myopic. Yeah. And I think the chance to participate in so many different things makes me a more robust human being.

43:47Very much. And artist and player and whatever I'm doing, songwriter. Yeah. That really informs that. So with the kids, has there been a pull? Do you feel that the minute you had your son, could you feel that thing where that thing got anchored and you're like, ooh. Now it's like this is a fixed thing in my life that I'm really having to sort of now go, oh, I have to deal with this reality. Well, you know, we had the, gosh, it's a weird thing to say blessing and COVID in the same sentence. Because, man, it was a really tough time for the world and a horrific thing in a lot of ways. And there's a lot of grief there and hard stuff.

44:29But for somebody whose job is to get out of town, in the one season of life where you're going to start a family, to get to be home, not just for when he was born, but when Kristen was pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. And at which, by the way, when we got married and I can't remember if you did it when our son was born, too. But you sent Dave was in the delivery. Were you not in the delivery or you were at our wedding? Yeah. In that sense. In that Dave made these amazing videos for my bride to help her through these seasons of life, which was getting married. I think you did it when our son was born. Yeah, I think so, too.

45:02And what a gift. Thank you for that. And I'm a three on the Enneagram. So I like to build out a checklist and check it out. That is my cocaine, man. It's like, give me a checklist and let me check that bad boy off. But I had the time and I had the mindset of, I want to dive into this wholeheartedly. And I want to do this and I want to do that. And, you know, I had all these things that I remember from my childhood that I loved, that I wanted to emulate and pass down as a generational gift. And I had things where I was like, you know, I kind of want to, I remember this in my childhood. I want to do that differently.

45:39And so I took it as this great project of, all right, I'm embarking on the new, this is like making a record. And so for me, it was like, I get to open a 529. You're so responsible. Hard Enneagram 3. Very hard Enneagram 3. But the 529 thing, and I had notes for today because I wanted to talk about this becoming a parent. There are three things that I see as my top three pillars of parenting that I focus on. And two of them are built on my strengths and one is built on a weakness. Wow. The two that are strengths are I've been obsessive about the 529. If I get per DM, it goes into the 529 for the kids.

46:25And it's not just being prepared for them to have that resource when that time comes in life. I was given the chance to go to Berkeley, right? And that was this amazing thing. But I didn't, I was not given a complete set of information and context for the finances around that. And they had saved up, but there were also student loans. And then there was this thing where like, I found this sort of ratty apartment in Boston. I kind of wanted that, you know, because it had a sort of a loft bed above the kitchen. Oh, this is the coolest thing ever. But I ended up in like a much nicer apartment for the sake of my parents' peace of mind and worry.

47:04And I get both sides of that, but it created more debt out after school and I felt the burden of my parents' debt and wanting to take that on and eventually did. So for my kids, the moment I dream about is they are entering into the world, they're leaving home and I'm going, here's this fund, go to college if you want, go live in Europe for a year if you want, go start a business, go get what buy a house get married whatever you want to do with this money there are no strings attached go bus go busk like really just head down to nashville and like and what they choose

47:39Jon McLaughlin:nursing homes locally mention my name yeah yeah here's the circuit yeah um and uh here's the old boom box and you know if you can learn these old fiddle tunes you won't have to make your own record you can just play band with it but uh their choices in that moment yeah 15 20 years from now might break my heart, might trigger my deepest anxieties, but I am determined and preparing already to step back and let it happen. And the second pillar for me is journaling. And so from the minute we knew that Kristen was pregnant, I'm doing this for both kids, but I've been filling a journal. Jeez Louise.

48:22Every couple weeks. And now it's more like every 30 days, but it's just like, you know, You sit in a regular chair now at supper. Oh, my gosh. Like with my daughter in the last six months when she was growing teeth and going through a developmental sleep regression. I was like, last night was not great. Dad said some things outside the crib picking up pacifiers. You're not old enough to understand it in this moment. But when you read this journal at 21, I want you to know that I really feel badly about that and I will pay for the therapy. you know um and you know all of these things we went to london and um you got to play in a park across from buckingham palace so the journaling to them and the third one that's built on a weakness of mine is like regulation self-regulation and repair like i as a three if i get anxious i go do things and get busy because if i'm still i have to sit in that uncomfortable emotion and my wife man thank god that's a strength of hers is to sit and and calm herself and be still and and i've learned a great deal from her but that's the third thing i want to be able to claim as a legacy as a parent and give my kids and that's the one where i think i'm struggling the most and have the most work to do but but how how this is stressful time that you they're in right now and for me the hardest moment is the transition if i've had three days on the road where oh gosh i wake up and i have five hours to myself i mean it would be cool to have those hours at home but it's in a nice hotel yeah you know yeah and then i go play music for another three hours every night like and someone's telling you when to be some i don't have to do up yes i don't have to worry about any of that like but then i come home and that shift is that's a hard It's a hard shift for me, and it's a hard shift for my wife because I'm coming in with all that energy, and she's been sitting in a completely different energy.

50:20And so that's a moment I have to be really mindful going into. Can I sing a quick chorus, a chorus idea for you? Well, no, actually, I won't. You want to wait? Yeah. Yeah.

50:33Jon McLaughlin:You got stage fright all the time. Yeah, no, shoot. Okay. Listen, in the meantime, can we talk about how summer reveals everything about a man's wardrobe? Oh, great subject change. That is brutal. You know, you open the closet and it's just sad, wrinkled stuff. But right now, what you don't want is sad, wrinkled stuff and a shirt you've had since 2014. Look, that's why we've been wearing quints. European linen pants and shirts. Breathable. Comfortable. Yes. The kind of thing that you throw on and immediately feel like you have your life together. I forget. I have clothes on, John. I can't, and I'm not going to apologize.

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51:44That's quince.com slash dadville for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's almost every day of the year, John. Quince.com slash dadville.

51:56Jon McLaughlin:Welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm David Thomas. And I'm Sissy Goff. And we are therapists who've been practicing with kids and families for over 30 years. And in each episode of our podcast, we're going to share some of what we're learning in this work that we do with kids and families on a daily basis. Our goal is to help you care for the kids in your life with a little more understanding, a little more practical help, and a whole lot of hope. We are honored to invite you to join us on this journey of raising boys and girls.

52:30Al did that, which you may have gone to, but Al at Porter's Call, they hosted a thing Annie and I went to. This is early days for us. It was called How to Come Home, I think is what they called it. Oh, yeah. And it was like, the thing, the tenet I remember the most was don't have any significant conversations or make any decisions in the first 24 hours. Yeah. Just like, I know you got a million things you got to figure out, she's got to figure out. Yeah. Or something y 'all need to clear up or they were just like, don't do it. Just let it sit. That's wise. And I was like, God, that's such, that's, but it's just the proof that that part of our job.

53:08And especially when you're touring a lot, it is so tricky because you either come in like super relaxed and you've had all this sleep and you're totally satiated. Cause you've been doing you for three days. Yeah. And then you're coming in and it's like, your wife's like bleeding out emotionally. in the bed. Oh, man, yeah. And you're like, hey, let's go. And she's like, no, there's no let's go. I want to leave. I'm going. I'm going to Cleveland for the weekend. I don't even like Cleveland, but it's far from here. But the flights are cheap. But the flights are cheap. Mississippi, yeah. And the kids are cheap.

53:41Actually, Cleveland, Mississippi is pretty great. It is pretty great. Shout out Delta State. But yeah, so I think that's something that I love that you have articulation around because I do think that's a common mistake in our work. because you can kind of, one is one place emotionally, the other is in another place. Yeah. And then to come in and know how to sort of engage in ways that fit both is really tricky. Yeah. Really tricky. And your kids are there watching this happen and they're getting their blueprint for how transitions work. Yes. And in a sense, that's helpful because it's a good reminder of, hey, zoom out 30 ,000 feet here.

54:23You know, what's the most important thing? that they can see modeled for them in this moment and and i try to remember that i don't i don't always achieve that but um you know and i think too like our daughter's too young to know um at this moment our son he's entering an age where he'll occasionally ask like if we're tucking him in one of us will usually stay with him until he falls asleep and it's usually my wife um and if i'm leaving you know good night love you he's like oh do you have a show tonight or something you know, he's always asking, a couple times it's broken heart, he's like, why are you always gone and working, you know?

55:01Yeah. But, but also in that is, I get this gift of how do I introduce this to him? And I go back to what music was for me through watching my dad because it wasn't like he was famous or had, you know, these high stakes attached to it. He wasn't paying for the mortgage with those gigs. He was a banker. And right now is this sweet season referenced in the Ben Rector episode on this podcast. Ben was talking about, and I don't have the same, you know, I'm not this sort of household name or like, hey, you sold 20 ,000 tickets last night that my kids are going to have to unpack. But what I love about this moment is Gabe has come to a couple shows and a couple sound checks.

55:50And it is more about, wow dad strums this guitar and it sounds massive in this room yeah and there are all these seats and you can tell people are going to be here later but there's nobody here right now and we get to go backstage and there's all this equipment and it's cool and so it's just this sort of it's the spectacle of it yeah and he doesn't know that that's not you know any different to him it'd be no different than what it was for me going into the bank building and seeing my dad's office it's just cool oh this is what my grown-up does when they're away this is what my grown-up yeah this is their pre-k what's your grown-up do i don't know i have no idea but uh yeah so like in a sense it's a magical season their pre-k is that yeah it's my pre-k daddy's gonna go to camp it's music camp it gets paid yeah but yeah it's like it's it's pure and innocent right now And I'm trying to hold on to that and remember that.

56:47Because what I really want him to see is that I do something I love. Yeah, I think that's important. And that can be tricky because it can become something that you resent if you're not careful. Yeah. But I do want our children to grow up with that in mind when they're choosing their path in life. Like, cause man, you know, my dad had a career like a lot of people have had over time, especially in the last 60 years where you can go work for one company and that's it. And you don't have to worry about it. You're set and you know, you're going to be nine to five and then your weekends are home, blah, blah, blah.

57:25Everything's kind of laid out. I think that's going away more and more. I don't think that really exists anymore. I think certainly by the time our kids are grown, in a sense, what we've been doing, which is this wild west thing is is a resilience thing it's like yeah just go ahead and accept that there are no guarantees you might as well be doing something well there's never i think i think that's the great lie for all the artists in the world is that i can get really envious of my nine to five friends because i'm like god they've got guarantees and i feel like the lord is like i'm sorry what yeah so the job is oh it's a good okay well i didn't know that's how life Well, let's sit back and watch this.

58:04Remember Exodus?

58:09So I think there's something really beautiful about, I love that comment. I'm glad you said that, because I do think all of it is just trust. It's just knowing like, who knows what's going to happen tomorrow? And the things that I can get envious of because the job at times can feel so unstable. And sometimes you're like, I don't know what the next gig is or the next job is that the next album is going to be like or whatever. I can get really envious of people. I'm like, God, what would it be like to just have like, somebody pays for your health insurance and you just go to the place and everybody knows you and you do your job and then you go home and you're not laying in bed going like, is this song good at 2 a.m.?

58:46Jon McLaughlin:Are they going to, people are going to come to the show. But then I always think like, but on like day four, I'd be like, do I have to go again? Yeah. They're like calling at 10 o 'clock. So you think I'm going to do this all the time. Every day? My bad, my bad. I think I didn't read the small print. This is permanent. Okay, so we got to talk about your record, this new record. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Dude, it's so good. I was trying to think of how I would explain, because I listened to it this morning, because the teasers are out. By the time this comes out, people will rush and be able to go listen to the whole thing.

59:17This is a big statement, but I really stand by this. I feel like you make country music like I like country music. Oh, that means the world. Let me tell you why. because it's really musical. It's really musical. It's like really cool, fun parts. The songs are always, you've always been this way. The songs are always good. Like it's not, I don't feel like I've ever listened to Charlie Walsh from America that I'm like, huh, that was, I wonder why he cut that. Or you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Where I'm like, huh. I think the theme of your songs is always there's something to say. And even if the lyric is fun, the music is saying the thing.

59:55or there's a beautiful marriage and because there's some fun songs on this some really fun songs but there's always like heft you always have three or four songs that are really substantial that I'm like you're such a great singer obviously such a great player but I just feel like when you do records I'm like yeah if I was a country artist I'd make records like this well you said it when you said make records yeah because if you're making songs it's a different game Touche. And it's tricky. Because they have to live together and they have to make sense together. Yeah. And when you're marketing a record, you're asking people to buy a season ticket.

1:00:36And unless you're already established and they've come to a few games and go, that was the coolest game I ever saw. That's such a good analogy. They're not necessarily going to come out of the gate and just buy season tickets. That's a great point. But I kind of have to make full records to even be able to understand what's happening. creatively. And I do feel proud of that in that sense with this, because I have not been able to release a body of work as a record since 2017 was the last record I made. And this is my first independent record. But it was begun while I was still at Warner. So there are a couple songs on here that probably if I had started making the record a year later, wouldn't be on.

1:01:23Because I I was still thinking, well, I've got to jump through these hoops. I need to be able to give something that they can run with. Not that it wasn't music I would have loved to make. I love every song on this record. I love playing them. But the record, and someone told me once, all you're doing when you make a record, you're taking a picture of yourself at a certain point in time. That's right. And I do think it became this portrait of me in this season where kids are entering the picture, Your record deal is exiting the picture, but also the world is changing and the industry is changing.

1:01:57And part of why I'm not on Warner is I probably could have stayed on like symbolically as long as I wanted and put out a couple songs at a time. And it was a very amicable parting of ways. As a matter of fact, I think Chris Lacey gave me a chunk of advance money on the way out that I wasn't supposed to get and helped me fund the record. Could you give me Chris's number? Yes, I will. I love that. Keep going back to the story. But, man, if you listen, and it's how we sequenced it, too. Like, the first couple songs, you can hear somebody still keeping radio in mind and singles in mind. But still songs I love.

1:02:35Just there's some red meat for that world. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to say it. We're starting by throwing a little red meat into the enclosure. Yeah, a little chum. um but then about about halfway through the record my life as a dad and husband really takes center stage yeah family man by the way which i didn't write i know i saw yeah and i'm so grateful for that uh that i live in a town that has that wellspring of great songs and that i have champions in my life like josh van valkenberg who has been my publisher but as things shifted with warner stepped into the role of a andr stepped into the role of executive producer and found these songs that felt like i had written yeah oh yeah and i was surprised you didn't i mean they very much sound like you isn't it wild and and also the gift in that is that the songwriters blessed it because if i had written that song and i thought well if tim mcgraw wants to cut this yeah charlie's not gonna get it you know right right but they were like you know charlie's cool we like him yeah go for it and what a blessing yeah um not for them but big blessing for me yeah yeah uh heavenly blessings for them heaven yes absolutely yes yeah in kingdom vision man they're driving a rolls royce but amen uh but man yeah and and just the gift of making music with friends and and

1:04:05Jon McLaughlin:getting to indulge my bluegrass side yes well that's what i love about it like dave you said you make him make records in the way that you like to hear country music it's very much a marriage of those two genres which always makes for a great yeah show yeah i think bluegrass is one of the genres that is like if you went down here on 12th and you put like a little bluegrass quartet together or whatever. You got on, busked on the street a little bit. People would love it. They would. It's, it's the most immediate genre. Yes. Well said. And I love, like when I was listening to your record this morning, I'm like listening to the, uh, wrap my porch around that song.

1:04:43Jon McLaughlin:Yeah. Like this will be a great live show. Yeah. It's, and, and that was a big thing we kept in mind too, was, you know, taking what I have already out in the world and what's missing. What do I want to add to this in an hour set and getting to have a few new tricks up my sleeve now to play in a show whether it's with the band or bluegrass band or solo yeah acoustic yeah and uh that's been really fun yeah it's it's it's and i love to i noticed that you had the same band the whole time which is so i love that it was yeah don again jerry row yeah uh the small bands yeah uh jerry row and drums uh rich brinsfield on bass rich which is love rich john and i have deep deep deep affection for yeah bass player and drew Holcomb and the Neighbors.

1:05:28Yes. Rich is. And a dad. You know, a lot of dad in this project too. Jaron Johnston producing. He's a dad. Who I love. Josh is a dad.

1:05:38And man, we had Sarah Buxton came in and sang a couple harmonies. What I love too about some of it is I got to keep my old friends around. Yes. You know, I've known Chris since nobody knew him. And now he's this sort of ascending into A-list first call guy in town. and it's been so fun to be on that whole ride with him and Sarah when I was in King Billy in the band I was in when I moved to town we'd go be her band and then we'd open for her yeah and so I've known Sarah for nearly all of the 20 years I've been in Nashville and now she's a mom and now I'm at you know it's just it's been this fun sort of full circle and it's the nature of the title track of Once Upon a Second Time Around because it's like I am in this middle of my life you know god willing i live a full life expectancy like this is halftime i'm in the locker room right now yeah i am embarking in this new independent journey i am you know the second time around second kid was born as this record was being made uh these sort of second time arounds have kind of come up in an eerily uh frequent manner uh as this record unfolds that's so cool yeah which Don't you love that kind of simpatico?

1:06:52It's the best, man. John and I were talking about that the other day. It's the divine wink that lets me know I'm at least somewhat on the right path. Yeah. Like somewhat. I'm around the trail. Yeah. I feel like I'm lost in the woods, but 100 yards that way is the way. I know.

1:07:09Jon McLaughlin:100 yards in some direction. I'm going to get there. I might have Lyme disease by the time I do, but, you know. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so we want to do a speed round with you, Charlie. Yes. We're excited about this. Okay, first question I want to ask you, because this one got me really excited. So if you could put together a band. Yes. For you. Okay. I don't know. Maybe not you. If you could just be in a band. Okay. And you get to chair the whole band. Okay. Dead or Alive. Anyone ever dead or alive. Yes. But one in each chair. What's the band? One in each chair. Okay. Let's say we're going to need...

1:07:54You get another guitar player. Another guitar player. Can I kind of go Vince style and have a bigger-ish band? No two of the same. Okay. All right. Keith Richards on guitar. Oof. Okay.

1:08:10Paul McCartney on bass. Let's just go crazy. Who is he? Tell me who he is. He was in a band called Wings. He's a British player. I would love so much if someone in real life, and I'm sure has sincerely told somebody, Paul McCartney was the bass player in Wings. And he played at Taylor Swift's wedding. What an honor for him. And it is, but also. Can I just ask this question? Do you think, my brain thinks of that two ways. I'm assuming she probably called him. I don't think she probably does that a lot, but I'm assuming for Paul she called. And she either said, you can name any price, like literally there's no price I won't pay.

1:08:51Or he was like, Oh, you're not going to pay me. I don't think there's anything in the middle. I think it was either. He's like five mil and it's, it's all yours. She's like, let's do seven. Cause I love you. And he's like, great. Or he was like, Oh no, no, no. I, I'll just do it. Let's just call it. I like to imagine, cause didn't they make a whole lot of donations in the week prior to the wedding? Oh, did they? They did. my fantasy is that they called Paul, they called all the others, you know, Adam Sandler, and said, all right, we want you to do this. They offered to pay because that's the kind thing.

1:09:26And they said, no, why don't you just, here's my rate, but donate it to a charity. To a charity, yeah. That's good. In my dream, that's what happened. Yeah. Okay, Keith Richards, Paul McCartney, Ray Charles on keys. Oh. Because why not, right? The drum chair is tough. Like, I feel like I need a pal that's just a buddy. in the band so I can like have somebody elbow me and go, is this real? So I'll say Jerry Rowe. Yep, yep. And then I would like to have some Bluegrassers. So I'll take Earl Scruggs on banjo and Sam Bush on mandolin. Oh, man. And how about Aretha Franklin and Kristen Rogers for backup singers?

1:10:04Wait, did you say Keys? Oh, yeah, Ray Charles, man. Oh, Ray Charles. What a band. That'd be a fun one.

1:10:10Jon McLaughlin:Is that going to be the band in heaven? Maybe. You could probably go on like chat GPT and be like, play me a recording with this band. Yeah. You know? Yeah, you could. All right. This is one of our favorite questions to ask. Yeah, this is. We love like disastrous, in a great way, like funny, disastrous onstage moments. Yes. Which I'm sure you have many. Many. As many live shows as you've played. Give us one of them. In high school, playing in that bar band, we played the library in Oxford. Oh, man. Which is not a library, a bar. It's a bar. Yeah. And I was, you know, pumped full of hormones, trying to impress these girls I was singing to.

1:10:55Like Ole Miss girls. Yeah. So I was jumping around stage and all that. And I landed poorly and fell backwards into my amp, which fell onto me. And you've never seen anyone recover more quickly. I don't even know if I was on the ground for more than 0.2 seconds. It was super embarrassing. And then I recovered as quickly as I could. That's the first one that comes to mind. Do you remember what song it was? Probably Hashpipe. Probably Hashpipe. That really got me going. You know, and then more recent ones are a little more shame flavored. I did a private once at Billy Bob's for like Verizon executives.

1:11:33executives and i had just started working with a new manager and you know i turn over new leaf and i'm coming out of this season where i was really had been in a lot of therapy and i'm gonna be better at managing my anger and whatnot and it was one of those gigs where you just you just got to show up play the gig take the money and go get out that's all you got to do right yeah well i was getting ready to put out new music and i i was like holding this preciously of like this new music is going to be the thing that changes my life and um people are going to hear it and it's going to change their life and so i'm up here and you know these what i now understand is these folks had been in conference rooms and meetings all day long they were you know as a cash bar they could go have a free beer on the company and they were going to get together and finally get a chance to talk about each other's day and everything so they're way at the back of this massive room and it's just me and an acoustic and the sound guy doesn't care he didn't want to be there and so he didn't have me turned up and i'm trying to sing these new songs and nobody's reacting and they're talking it sounds like they're louder than me and so i just start having a meltdown on stage like literally you know like y 'all need to shut up no charlie oh dude i really had a bad moment and like y 'all these songs are gonna mean something someday and y 'all need to hear me oh my god and uh the lady that was coordinating the gig was there with me and i walk off stage kind of knowing I had just, you know, tooted in the car, so to speak, and the windows were locked shut.

1:13:08And it's a long drive. And I had to get in the shuttle back to the hotel with this lady. I had to fly home on the flight with this lady, you know, and I just knew I had messed up, and she knew I had messed up. And so it proceeded after that a week of me writing apologies and sending flowers, and it all worked out and stuff. But that was a really tough one for me, gig wise. Well, note this, if nothing else, everyone has wanted to do that. Oh, yeah. You just got to do it. Well, yeah. And sure, you suffered.

1:13:33Jon McLaughlin:It's more fun in your imagination. You know, and I played, I mean, the three of us have been in those situations. It's more fun in your imagination. Where you're playing a corporate gig. Yeah. I played one one time where I played and then Bon Jovi played. And they were doing like an acoustic, it was like his acoustic band. and it was at like the Hard Rock Times Square and it's packed with people. And I mean, people were enjoying the show, but it was so loud. Yeah. And I remember sitting side stage and being like, Jon Bon Jovi can't win with this crowd. Yeah. Corporate, that vibe. Yeah. Nobody's paying attention.

1:14:17Yeah. At a certain point, it becomes, it's just humans, it's psychology, right? It's absolutely, it's sociology. Yes. It's like the way the room is set up. How groups of people move. And I have to say this, sorry, because now we're going to talk to the listeners. Yes. We're going to have a little moment for the listeners. Okay. We'll listen and learn. Yes. People that are listening who are like, we have a corporate event coming up and we're going to book some talent. We're going to have a dinner while the talent plays. Everybody's going to listen to the talent and they're going to see why I booked this talent because this talent is amazing.

1:14:52I just want to tell you as clear as I can Text Text me, call me Email Dave Barnes and say Hey, do you have any thoughts on how this night can go like I want it to? I would love to give them to you Because it will not go like you want it to go The sociology is And will always be John just told the most articulate example I have of this Which I use all the time, by the way When people ask me, I tell them that story About you playing with Bonjetti People always want to talk Always want to talk and unless you set the night up where the chairs don't have a table. They have to be rows of chairs. Chairs.

1:15:29You have to - You gotta lower the lights. Lower the lights. You gotta bring the people in. Bring the people in. You have to tell them ahead of time, we are having a concert. This matters to me as your CEO because I love this band. So this is not, we are sitting and we're listening. If you want to honor me and what I'm doing with this event, be quiet. You'll understand by the end of their set why I told you to be quiet because they're awesome. then afterwards we will talk. Unless you do these things, listeners, it will not go like you want it to go. I would also add that Bo's soundstick is not adequate PA.

1:16:01You're going to need something louder than the table conversation. Or here's a proposition for this listener, corporate booker. Alternatively, go mariachi band in a Mexican restaurant style. Send the singer into the room one table at a time because you can keep the attention of one table for two songs and a fun story and move on. But, you know, right, like it's what you're saying. You got to employ sociology for it to be successful. And again, if John's story, which is the greatest story I know, which doesn't, if it doesn't prove the point, then it's okay, just move on. But the point is one of the biggest rock bands who have global hits, if they're playing those songs and the crowd is not listening, nobody's gonna listen to whoever you book and then i will say too and here's the end of my rant here's the end of my ted talk there's also a world where you just have somebody play in the background and i love oh totally i love that book the band that does that all the time just tell me just say hey yeah they're gonna be loud yeah i have zero problems with it yeah because it's fun i get up with my guys we have a great time playing songs i don't talk we i'm more than happy to but just communicate that because because then what happens is the booker gets disappointed and i feel terrible yeah because they're like why didn't you do your thing and i'm like oh what by his talking they're like yeah well do i'm like no no no no let me tell you that here's the last one sorry you've you've john knows you've done something people don't like to be shushed they hate it as much as any human experience and they and you never you never make any enemies quicker as an artist than when you start telling people in the crowd what to do just ask me anyway okay in a brand i'm done no the last thing i'd say it also is like it can save you on baggage fees then you don't have to check that second bag full of merch you know you're gonna sell which i have done too many times bro oh we're not gonna do it but i bet we all have really good stories about how much merch we've taken back with the exact amount of merch yeah oh yeah you put it on the scale and

1:18:09Jon McLaughlin:Yep, 48 pounds. Yep, it was 48 pounds on the way there. One of my first one. Okay, I'm looking at this question. One of my first shows I ever did, like everywhere I flew somewhere, I took three boxes of CDs. Yes. And it was. They were right. There were like 3 ,000 kids at this event. I walked back to the table. And I was so ready for like how many thousands of dollars did I make? Because I want to squish them and smell them. and she goes a couple and I was like a couple boxes and she's like you sold two CDs and I was like total she's like I had sent three boxes that's a hundred what is that 90 times 270 CDs and I sold I mean that girl looked at me with as much compassion and sadness as you've ever seen in a girl's eyes.

1:19:09Do you have any other interests or talents? She was a fan too, which made it even worse because she was like, oh, I thought you were good. Okay. If your kids, two more, if your kids came to you and said, Dad, play us, like they might have done this to me, play us the record. What's the record you want me to hear? I'm going to sit and listen to it. oh uh yeah this is a tough one that's a tough one um you don't have to say a record of ours because i know you i know i know so just push those out let's take those off the table oh gosh what's it what is that record it'd be it might be vince gill's the key for my country music heart it might be the Beatles Rubber Soul or no yeah Rubber Soul

1:20:08I mean right now the one in practice more than that I've been playlisting so it's more song based which is cheating but go ahead yeah it is cheating but Werewolves of London is on there oh yeah uh several tom petty running down a dream you know certain songs like that um man that's a hard one to answer but you had two that's good i have two yeah yeah i'm saying you had you had yeah and you had yeah those those would be two starting points for me love that for sure um i know there's another answer i'm going to think of it uh bedtime tonight and not be able to transmit on this podcast but uh and you know and it brings to mind something that i've done with each of our kids which is when gabe was in the womb i would sing this willie nelson song or song from a willie nelson record called teatro yeah uh called i've loved you all over the world and i sing it to harper too and then they were both born i sort of had the phone in the back with the playlist when we had music.

1:21:15And Gabe was born to Eric Church's Sinners Like Me. And Harper was born to, it's actually a John Fogerty song,

1:21:25Stapleton cut, Joy of My Life. Yeah. So those are like the songs that are the constellation of their being born and whatnot. But I'm gonna think of another record. But those would be starting points, sure. Those are good ones.

1:21:40Jon McLaughlin:I like that. All right, last question. if you wrote a book on being a dad. This is the one I have been, I have a whole list, okay? But the actual answer is, it has a subtitle, but the title is Big Day for a Short Nap. And at first I was thinking about it like, you know, Harper didn't nap today, it's gonna be a long afternoon. And now I've been reframing it as like, Big Day for me not having had enough sleep. And the subtitle though is more like, to the heart of it, which is like everything I've learned loving you. Oh, that's great. That's really good. Yeah. You're the other angle you could, I'm ruining a moment.

1:22:22Come on. No, you're not. The other thing you could do with that title is it's like a kid's book about funerals.

1:22:31He's just taking a short, short little nap. It'd be such a great Christian kid's book about death. It's like that old Bluegrass song, Mother's Only Sleeping. Mother's not dead, she's only sleeping.

1:22:44Jon McLaughlin:Everybody go check out the new album. Yes, it's so good. But hey, I need to give you all my drafts for the titles. Because I got on this whole kick of classic book titles. And maybe some of them are song titles. But Give Peas a Chance. And Kristen's going to kill me. She told me, don't tell them that. Those are not funny. No, these are very funny. This is dadville. It's dadville. Yeah, very dadville. There's never been a safer place through this. Yeah. Not War and Peace, but War and Passy. A Tale of Two Car Seats. Yeah. Oh, what was another one? The War and Passy. Oh, Fifty Shades of Tantrum. Oh.

1:23:22Jon McLaughlin:I love that. Anyway. I love that. That's good. I'm going to workshop. War and Passy makes me think like, yeah, you guys are in that. I mean, do you remember that, Dave? When like you'd leave the house and you realize we don't have a pacifier. And the panic that sets in. None of ours really did Passy's. which in the time was really hard but we never had to do the like get rid of the Patsy family. I remember my sister with one of her girls had to have, this is like one of my favorite parenting things, she had she Cinderella emailed, or no no mailed a letter to the daughter and said it just feels like it's, I would love your Patsy can you send me your Patsy, it's time to be a big girl and she did it and it kind of worked Wow Wow Why Cinderella?

1:24:13She was the only one that wasn't busy. She didn't have a gig. Just a budget. I think it was a cameo thing. You know, it's funny. Gabe didn't. He kind of weaned off the Patsy early. Harper is deep. Not only is she constantly with a Patsy, she sleeps with four Patsys. Oh, wow. Which is why I had those meltdowns. I was texting you about six months ago. Because if she gets in a mood, she'll stand up in the crib and just start throwing all four Patsys until we come back in. So we're going to have to have a letter from Cinderella and Rapunzel. You're going to need the whole cast. We're going to have to go through the whole Disney universe.

1:24:48Ghost of Maya Angelou. Yeah, I remember somebody showed me a picture once of their baby sleeping. And it was, I mean, it might have been double digit. Because they were just like, we're going to litter the crypt. Yeah, so anywhere you put your hand, you can just stick it in. Yes. Unreal. Go get the album, guys. Thanks for doing this. Thank you all. This has been so fun.

1:25:19Jon McLaughlin:Welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm David Thomas. And I'm Sissy Goff. And we are therapists who've been practicing with kids and families for over 30 years. And in each episode of our podcast, we're going to share some of what we're learning in this work that we do with kids and families on a daily basis. Our goal is to help you care for the kids in your life with a little more understanding, a little more practical help, and a whole lot of hope. We are honored to invite you to join us on this journey of raising boys and girls.