The Blitz Beyond London

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2:46May the 31st, 1942. High among the peaceful rolling hills of Kent, the quiet midnight air begins to vibrate with a low, synchronised thrum. The heavy, unrhythmic heartbeat of a predatory aerial armada. Finally, out of the darkness emerges a swarm of Heinkel HE-111 bombers. Glass-nosed cockpits gleaming in the moonlight. and distinctive spade-shaped wings slicing through the clouds as they rumble over the sleeping countryside. Inside, the cramped, metallic bellies of these machines. The German bomb-aimer is not looking for munitions factories, ports or political nerve centres. Instead, they're peering down through that glass nose, peering at an ancient, undefended landscape below.

3:42Tonight, their purpose is somehow much more sinister. This is one of the raids of the Baedeker Blitz, a cynical, retaliatory campaign launched by the Nazi regime in Germany to rip the cultural heart out of Great Britain. Tonight, their crosshairs are locked firmly onto the wellspring of the Church of England, Canterbury Cathedral. As the Armada roars over the outskirts of Canterbury, thousands of white-hot magnesium incendiaries rain down on a city completely unequipped for total war. The city has ancient, narrow streets, packed with Tudor and Jacobean and Georgian timber homes. They catch like kindling.

4:29The historic heart is engulfed by a roaring, suffocating firestorm. Over 800 homes and historic buildings are pulverised Gutted in a matter of hours The roads meld The local water mains rupture under high explosives Leaving fire crews scrambling for sources of water To fight the inferno that sweeps through the city Rising out of this ocean of black smoke and orange flame Is the great silhouette of Canterbury Cathedral Bombs do hit the cathedral They pepper its roof they burn at a terrifying 2 ,000 degrees centigrade. If they can melt through the lead roof and get amongst the centuries-old oak rafters below, the entire monument will go up.

5:15But standing between the cathedral and that total annihilation is not the British Army. It's a tiny, breathless band of local volunteers. They're armed with nothing but ladders and hand-operated stirrup pumps, buckets of sand. But they're fuelled by adrenaline, determination. They scramble up the narrow stone spiral staircases directly into the jaws of the inferno. Up they climb onto the exposed roof, bombs still landing around them, shrapnel tearing through the air. These volunteers do the unthinkable. They don't run for cover. They run towards the white hot flares. With blistered hands and blinded eyes, They physically scoop up the spluttering devices and they toss them off the edge of the roof.

6:06They watch them plunge down into the dark courtyards below. They're fighting for every metre squared of roof. They're fighting for their history. When we think of the Blitz, that gigantic aerial assault on Britain, we tend to picture the iconic images of London. The tube shelters, the subway stations full of people sleeping on the platforms, the smoke rising past St Paul's Cathedral. But the reality of the air war, the bombing war, extended far beyond the capital. It was truly a national trauma that stretched from the shipyards of Glasgow, down through the docks of Liverpool, and onto the historic rooftops of Canterbury.

6:42Today we're going to be talking all about that, and talking about the Blitz, the aerial assault on Britain. We're going to be joined by the best-selling historian and former RAF navigator, John Nicol. He's been on the podcast many times before. Go and check out his past episodes. He's a real live wire. He's both a brilliant communicator and a very knowledgeable historian. And he's written his latest book, Blitz, When World War II Came Home. In that book, John strips away the sanitized wartime propaganda to reveal the raw, gritty reality. To reveal what it was like to be in cities right across Britain on the home front.

7:16Let's get into it.

7:24John good to see you again buddy Thank you so much for having me on Dan This is becoming a regular experience You're very kind my friend Well no kind You're box office mate You're kind to us for writing these wonderful books And coming on the show to talk about them So we're going to get beyond London Because in some ways the effects of the Blitz Were probably felt even more terribly on the smaller communities and cities that experienced them. I mean, you're from Tyneside. Is that where this story in some way, your interest begins in some ways? Yeah. So, I mean, the premise of the book is twofold.

7:57So first of all, people talk about the Blitz in terms of it being in London for a few months, either side of Christmas 1940. And so if you look at history websites, you know, it'll say that the Blitz started on perhaps the 6th of September 1940 and went through to the 30th or 40th of May 1941. But if you were being bombed at the end of August in 1940, or if you were being bombed in July 1941, nobody talked about the Blitz in those terms. They didn't say, oh, well, this isn't the Blitz anymore. This is something different. And it's quite interesting because those dates, September 1940 to May 1941, you on, were simply created by historians, Dan.

8:43I don't know if you know any historians, but they were created by historians in the aftermath of the war. They're just not real. And so the first premise is that it just wasn't a few months. It was the whole of the war. The second premise is that people have got the image of the plucky EastEnders, the smoke rising around St. Paul's Cathedral, and they think it was just London. And if you look at the enormity of the attacks across the United Kingdom, from Aberdeen to Exeter, from Dover to Glasgow, whole communities were shattered. And that's why I chose this particular subject this time. And it starts with my mum in North Shields, who was a war child.

9:24She was, what was she, 11, I think, when the war started. And she never spoke about her experiences, Dan. She never really talked about the war on Tyneside other than one major thing. She said there was an incident in North Shields, which is on the banks of the Tyne near the coast where I grew up and where she lived with her family. It was an incident where whole families died. And I never explored it. I never went any further until after her death a few years ago. and I was mulling this over. I was back in Newcastle visiting my sister and I decided to investigate this. And that is when my absolute astonishment was piqued.

10:04So I found this incident and it was one incident in North Shields. And I'd never heard of this. I'd never been to this site and I'd passed it on countless occasions on my home from school. May the 3rd, 4th, 1941, There was an air raid shelter in the centre of North Shields, about 200, 300 yards from my mum's house. And the other thing my mum had said was that my grandmother, her mum had said, you'll never be evacuated and we'll never go to an air raid shelter. If we die during the war, we'll die together at home. That's the two things I remember about my mother's wartime experiences. And the air raid shelter was under the Wilkinson's Lemonade Factory in North Shields, very famous landmark, a wartime landmark.

10:44And on the night of the 3rd of May 1941, there's 192 men, women and children sheltering in the air raid shelter, which was just the basement in this lemonade factory. And a bomb hit it. One German bomb hit the factory and it went through all of the floors, exploded, and it brought all the machinery and all the floors down into the basement where 192 people were sheltering and 107 people died that night. 107 in one incident, Dan, including 43 children and whole families perished. And that was the incident that my mum mentioned in passing and never spoke about. And that is where I start with the book.

11:30How could this happen? How could I not know about this? One of the largest losses of civilian life during the war in one incident. How could I not know about it? And that's where it all starts and where my interests started. As you say, you passed it every day. It's crazy, isn't it? For people that don't know, people aren't lucky enough to know the Tyne and what goes on on the banks of the Tyne, North and South. Tell us why the Germans were interested in dropping bombs on that part of the world. Well, like all of those major industrial sites, whether it was Liverpool, whether it was Glasgow, whether it was Tyneside, it was the heavy industry.

12:06So the shipbuilding, all of the heavy steel metal industry of, you know, when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, of which Tyneside, Liverpool were famous for its shipbuilding. When I was going to school, the train went along the Tyne from North Shields to Newcastle. And the thousands of cranes, shipyards, the tank works, they were everywhere. And of course, the Germans were targeting that massive heavy industry. And it wasn't the days where you now see what's going on, God forbid, in the Lebanon or in Iran, or in Israel, where we see largely guided weapons. Let's just leave it like that for the moment.

12:45This was just because of the nature of war was area bombing to destroy the heavy industry. And so if you lived anywhere, whether you lived on the time near the shipyards or five, 10 miles away from the time, you were going to be bombed. And one of the things that I got was the North Timeside bomb map, which again, you know, kind of start part of my exploration. I got the bomb map from the war. And you look at this thing and somebody has gone to incredible lengths to plot every single bomb. Not the incendiaries, just the high explosives bombs that fell on North Tyneside. And you can see every single one.

13:23So you can see the one that fell on Wilkinson's factory that night. You can see that bomber dropped four bombs. One dropped on the banks of the Tyne and exploded, but didn't do any damage. One landed in a street nearby and killed two people in a house. One landed in another street nearby and didn't explode. And one landed on Wilkinson's factory. But if you draw out your lens, which is what I did, a mile away, the streets that I grew up down in a council estate, there's dots everywhere around my council estate. When I was growing up, I didn't know any of this. Everybody had been affected by the war in the 60s and the 70s when I was growing up.

13:59Nobody talked about it. And here were that you could see that where I played kick the can and hide and seek, people had died. Where I walked to church or to my primary school every day, and the buildings were slightly different, slightly different roof, slightly different brickwork. Well, I'd never thought why that would. And then you can look in the archive. You see, at the end of your street, three people died in an Anderson Air Raid shelter there that night. And then you can find their stories. You can look in the archive and you can find their stories and you can find Pathé News footage of houses at the end of my street with a union flag flying outside and people digging through the rubble and girders and rafters.

14:45And you can see the blown up Anderson shelter. That's history. I love history, Dan, and I know that you do. History was happening in my street on my council estate and I didn't know till I started writing this book. And you've got astonishing eyewitness testimonies in this book. I was so struck by Millie Matthews, who was a little child in that bunker. I mean, it's just astonishing. I mean, if you're a child, I mean, is Millie still with us? Yeah, yeah. She's still with us. Yeah, there's people amongst us, walking amongst us today, who are still the survivors that experience this blitz. It's amazing, isn't it?

15:20But tell the world about Millie. So Millie's the same age as my mum would have been if she was alive. So Millie's 99. She'll be 100 in December. I'm going back up to her birthday party in December, back up to my hometown. Millie was exactly the same age as my mum, lived just a couple of hundred yards away. They didn't know each other, but Millie became my guide to what my mum would have experienced, but never spoke about. So Millie was in the factory in the basement that night with her brother, with two of her cousins, with two or three of her aunties, when the bomb went off. And I spoke to Millie and her brother, who is, so Millie's 99, her brother will be 96 or 97, lives in Canada now, I spoke to him.

16:05And they told me what it was like to be in that area of shelter. And so two things happened, Dan. First of all, it was astonishing to hear those stories, But it really brought to me the reality of being bombed. But it awoke my experiences about me being bombed in 1991 in Baghdad. And it was just such an astonishing awakening to listen to them talking. But Millie and her brother Stan were both in that area of shelter when the bomb went off. And Stan said he'd been reading a copy of the Beano on one of the tops of the bunks. And they'd fallen asleep. And people had been playing the accordion. There were people singing.

16:45There were people smoking. There were people chatting. Everybody fell asleep. And it was quite dark. And both of them said there was no noise. There was no flash of light. All that they can remember is waking up amidst dust. And Stanley said he was half hanging off a bed. He was bleeding. And Millie, who was about 10, 15 yards away, said her school friend was pulling her, trying to get her off the bunk and said, we've got to get out. We've got to get out. And that was so in the seconds after the blast had gone off and people had been killed and the building had come apart And then they said and then the screaming started and then the shouting started And they were buried in the rubble and Millie who was what had been what 13 then 13 So she was one of the older ones she said the kids were holding on to her They didn't know what was happening There was an arid shelter warden Ellen Lee a legendary figure I have since discovered an 18 stone lady down who were trapped and barged a wall down, ran into a wall like a rugby, would be a prop, you know, player, a forward, barged the wall down, got round to one side and dug through some of the rubble.

17:57And then a rescue workers were appearing. And she was shouting back into the shelter because she'd been in a different part and Millie was still trapped. Can you hear us? Or in a Geordie accent, can you hear us? Can you hear us? can you hear us? And Millie said, yes, yes. And she said, come to the light. She had a little torch, come to the light. And Millie said she was gathering children together and they're crawling. She said, I don't know if I was crawling over rubble or bodies, but I was crawling up towards this patch of light that was coming through a gap in the wall. And Mrs. Lee was digging through the rubble and Millie was passing children through.

18:33And then her brother appeared and there was a a little bit more light as people were shining torches in. And her brother was covered in blood where he'd been hit by debris. And her cousin, his leg was not quite hanging off, but he'd been really badly injured. They were screaming. And Millie was saying, get out, get out. And her brother wouldn't leave without her. So they then got out together. But one of her cousins was killed that night. And her auntie, the auntie that she'd been staying with, who'd taken her to the shelter, was killed that night. And they didn't find the body for, I think, four or five days.

19:06Back then, Dan, because there was 107 people killed, you just went to the local, well, it wasn't a mortuary, it was the local bathhouse where the bodies were being stored, wrapped in burlap sacking. And you just opened the sacking to see if it was your relative that was missing. So it would say, lady, black hair, wearing this coat or something like that. And so that's how they discovered that one of her aunties was killed. One of her other aunties that was there was badly injured, had to have a metal plate put in her head. Her sister, her five-year-old sister Mona was there, simply was missing.

19:40Didn't know where she was. She wasn't amongst the dead or she wasn't amongst the dead that were being gathered in one place. I don't think they found her sister for a week. Five-year-old. Can you imagine one of your children being missing for a week? Five-year-old. and they found Mona in a shop, in a nearby haberdasher shop. Mona had got out of the bomb-blasted air raid shelter, was wandering around alone, didn't know anybody. So a lady had found her, picked her up, collected her and taken her home. What she hadn't done is reported any of this to any, I mean, you know, the chaos and confusion, there probably wasn't the systems, but there were lists of the missing and there were lists of the dead.

20:22She'd taken her home and they found her in this haberdasher shop, dressed in the most beautiful clothes. But they found her after herself. Can you imagine her mother? The fear and the worry, not knowing where your five-year-old daughter was. It was an astonishing time, Dan. And the stories are astonishing. They shine a light onto a period of time in our history where we think we know the story, but we really don't. And Millie, you write that she was traumatised. you've experienced bombing as well. It does seem to me from reading lots of accounts, there is something about bombing. Is it the feeling of helplessness, the scale, the noise, the fact the earth is moving.

21:03It's a different kind of fear, a different kind of trauma to someone galloping towards you on a horse with a sword, which I no doubt is terrifying as well. But there's something about that long range bombing. There's nothing you do in return. You're passive. It seems to work on you in a particular way. I think that what we now recognize as post-traumatic stress disorder, but certainly wasn't recognized in any way or understood back then, affects people in different ways. People talk about their mental health now, but nobody talks about mental health during the Blitz. They just didn't understand.

21:35So Millie was talking about this. And again, we discussed the reality of being bombed. And you pick up on a very interesting point because you are passive. You are having something done to you that you're simply waiting to find out if you are going to survive or you're going to die. And on a couple of occasions, when I was being bombed, I thought I was going to die. And then when you don't, it's simply you're moving on to the next stage. And Millie was like that as well, thinking she's going to die. And when she's not, simply moving on because she was in the middle of a war. And she talks about the immediate aftermath, the weeks, months, and indeed years afterwards.

22:12She couldn't leave her mother's side. When her mother went out, Millie went with her. When her mother went to the toilet, Millie would sit outside until she'd come back out of the toilet. She would hang onto her skirt. Thunder and lightning, the crashing of thunder. Millie would jump up in fear and she was seeing exactly my symptoms, Dan. So my symptoms from 1991 and where are we now? 2026. So for her, what is that? 85 years after her experience, for me, 35 years after my experience, we have the same, same indications of post-traumatic stress disorder. So I saw Millie a few weeks ago when we had a big boot launch up in North Shields, and she was on stage with me talking about telling her story.

22:59And she said, so when she's on a bus, she has to be at the front of a bus in case something happens. So she's not got people pressing behind her, crushing her to get off. And I have that same thing if I'm on a train or something like that. She hates crowds. So when she goes to the Eldon Square shopping centre, I don't know if you've been there down in Newcastle, she hates going there because of the crowds pressing around her. She still jumps if fireworks go off. And I do exactly the same. It's funny how you're affected by these disparate decades parted experiences. You're listening to Dan Snow's History.

23:40We're talking about the Blitz more coming up.

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27:34Let's move on from the wonderful Millie and all our best and love to her on our 100th birthday. Let's move across to the West Coast, particularly two West Coast ports were astonishingly badly hit. Shall we start with Clydeside? So another great river. We've gone from the Tyne, we've gone from Tideside to Clydeside. People know about the city of Glasgow that sits there, but other places as well. And again, massive shipbuilding yards. Was it the John Brown and Co yards where HMS Hood, Duke of York were built? The Royal Navy's finest warships at that point, biggest big gun battleships, I guess, at that point.

28:09Astonishing ferocity of bombing that took place here. Over a period of weeks and months around that 1940-1941 period, but Glasgow and Clydesdale suffered its worst night for the whole of Scotland, March 1941, when there was a concentrated effort to hit the industrial heartland. So you're not just hitting the docks, you're hitting the nearby areas, you're hitting the workers, you're hitting the housing. And nowadays, there would be serious questions asked about that. But back then, at night, with very limited aiming capabilities, that was the way that war was waged. And we shouldn't bulk from that.

28:53We can talk about it. But we were doing the same to the industrial heartlands of Germany later on in Hamburg and places like that. We were doing the same. And so March 1941, I think 1 ,000 people died over the course of 24, 36 hours bombing. That's 1 ,000 people dying. And then over the rest of the war, I think Scotland was attacked about 500 times more. And so the death toll from the Blitz through the whole of the wartime period for Scotland was two and a half thousand people killed and eight thousand people injured. Tens of thousands made homeless. And you just don't hear about it. But there are some astonishing pictures from Glasgow of people walking through the rubble with prams, with trolleys, carrying their possessions, trying to get to safety.

29:45And we just don't really hear about those sort of incidents when we talk about the Blitz as a wartime experience. Well, I've heard about it in your book. The fact that you quote, which is, there are 12 ,000 houses in Clyde Banks. This is just as west of Glasgow, just as the Clyde widens and heads towards the sea. Of those 12 ,000, only eight remained completely undamaged. That's an astonishing fact. And again, can you imagine a Blitz now? Can you imagine the trauma and the terror and the reality of 10 ,000, 20 ,000, 30 ,000 people being bombed out of their home, 1 ,000 people being killed in one industrial town in one night?

30:27And then take yourself to Glasgow or to Liverpool or to Aberdeen or any of those big industrial towns, Manchester. Can you imagine the next morning what you'd be doing with your family? Where would you go? You know, it's not, you know, we've got mobile phones, you know, I suppose our families are more disparate now. They're spread all over. Where would you go? Where would you be taken to? What would be the governmental infrastructure to try to support you? Well, it was more or less limited. Some people would say it was almost non-existent back then because it was so widespread. bread. Where would you go?

31:06What would you do? Well, back then, you kind of just got on with it and prepared for the next night, prepared for the next night of horror, the next night of terror. That's one of the things that really came through to me when I was reading the accounts, Dan, when I was talking to people. It was relentless. It didn't stop. It went on and on and on. And it wasn't just 1940, 1941, depending on where you were in the country, whether it was the baby Blitz, whether it was the Baidecker raids, whether it was the V1 attacks, whether it was the V2 attacks. It went on and on and on. Well, we'll come to some of those.

31:41Let's quickly just go down the West Coast a little bit and get to Liverpool. Why was Liverpool so important? Why did the Germans want to hit Liverpool? Again, Dock's industrial heartland. So Liverpool was hit on many occasions. So started, I think, in the September, November 1940, massive raid just before Christmas 1940, and then a huge series of raids in May 1941. I think over eight days, the first eight days of May 1941, Merseyside attacked every single night. So I sometimes kind of feel bad about quoting these facts and figures, but it does help to put it into context. So eight days, first eight days of May 1941, 1 ,900 people killed, another near 1 ,500 seriously wounded, 70 ,000 made homeless, 70 ,000 made homeless.

32:41In Boutal, 8 ,000 of 17 ,000 houses destroyed or damaged. And you're talking about almost half of a district, half of an area, half of a town on Merseyside. It is so difficult for us to understand what it must have been like. So at that point of the war, May 1941, something like three or four transatlantic convoys are arriving every week. And the figure is a third of all wartime imports entering the country through Liverpool. So obviously the Germans enormously keen to disrupt that flow of imports. My grandfather's on a Canadian naval ship and he witnessed, I think, at least one night of that Liverpool Blitz from Anchored in the Mersey.

33:20Extraordinary. Keep going down the West Coast, poor old West Coast. Cardiff and Swansea. And this is slightly different, isn't it? This is about energy. Well, huge power supplies, huge generating, coal, mining. All of these places that you and I are talking about are all on a river, on an estuary, in a dock. They all are major transport hugs as well. And so again, being hit, not on a regular basis, but being targeted depending on what stage of the war they were at. And also what we would now call de-housing, basically attacking the ability of the enemy. And we were the enemy of the Germans, obviously, and they were the ability to wage war and the means of war production.

34:06And so everything, I'm going to use this term advisedly was fair game. And we did the same back to the Germans in the subsequent years when we opened that front bombing the Germans. And so all of those places across the UK that were involved in the means of waging war, they were all back then legitimate targets. And as you just quickly alluded to with the so-called Baedeker, Baedeker guidebook, Exeter, Bath, Norwich, York, Canterbury. So for people from outside the UK, those are some of the most beautiful and historic centres in Britain. And it's tragic what was done to so many of those heritage centres of those cities.

34:48And interestingly, that wasn't necessarily a military target in a conventional sense, not big wartime production. That was an idea about attacking a sense of Britishness, a sense of Canterbury, the mother church of the Church of England. It's about striking a blow in this more subtle and perhaps equally important front of the war. And that's people's minds. That's about identity. Very much so. So the Baidecker raids were in response to some of our attacks on German historic towns. And so that was kind of April to June 1942. So depending on what your historical context was, the Blitz finished in supposedly May 1941.

35:31Well, not if you are in those historic towns in the summer of 1942, they were. So there's a book, Baidecker's Great Britain, the Handbook for Travellers. And basically the Germans, if you remember the Grand Tour when we would go over to Europe and see the historic sites of Europe, well, the Germans would come here and they'd use the Baidecker's Great Britain Handbook for travelers. And that listed all of the great, largely cathedral cities. So anything Canterbury, Exeter, Norwich, and they were attacked. And so it was in revenge for our attacks on the great German cities, but also sending a message to the people of Great Britain, nowhere is safe.

36:16We can attack you in your homes. We can attack your cathedrals. We can attack your historic sites. We can attack your beautiful buildings, whether you're in Bath or in Exeter. Canterbury, June the 1st, 1942. And I think Canterbury, I think it was ordered in retaliation for an RAF raid on Cologne in the days before. And so 130 HE high explosive bombs, nearly 4 ,000 incendiaries dropped on one raid. Doesn't sound much, 130 bombs, 4 ,000 incendiaries, but it largely leveled the medieval part of Canterbury. Interestingly, of course, the cathedral, for some reason, survived. 40 people killed, 100 people wounded, 800 buildings destroyed, corn exchanged, the city market, anybody who was around that time at the Rose Hotel.

37:09Well, the cathedral was hit by incendaries, but there were fire watchers. And the job of a fire watcher was, as the name would tell you, to watch for fire and to then to alert the authorities. And they saw that incendaries' landing started burning. They rushed to the cathedral, rushed into the roof space and managed to extinguish them. And so the cathedral was a survivor of the Blitz, but many people were not.

37:40More blitz after this, folks. Don't go anywhere.

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39:15Yes, we should say, John, we've raced ahead of ourselves a little bit because there's, roughly speaking, two kinds of bombs that are being dropped, aren't there, during the so-called Blitz. There are big, high-explosive bombs that blow things up, that can bring the facades of buildings down and things like that. But there are also these incendiaries, which are very small, aren't they? They're like little bomblets. Just clarify, what's the difference? So you've got what we would in the military call an HE bomb high explosive. So basically it is a steel iron case filled with explosive. And so it can be fused in different ways.

39:49And I talk about these when I'm talking about the bomb disposal guys, because they're faced with different types of fuse. So the bomb can go off when it hits the ground, an impact fuse. It could be on a time fuse. So it hits the ground and then ticks merrily away for an hour, a day, two days, and it can explode afterwards. But basically, and they can have anti-tamper fuses. So it can just lie there and do nothing until somebody touches it or tries to disarm it. And then it kills the bomb disposal people or kills children who kind of, you know, the next day are wandering around the bomb sites. The HE bombs are designed to basically blow buildings apart, to kill, to destroy.

40:28But then what you're also doing is dropping thousands and thousands of incendiaries on an area. So Canterbury is the classic example. So 130 high explosive bombs, but 4 ,000 incendiaries, and they're kind of milk bottle sized. You know, if you remember your school chemistry lesson, Dan, when you're burning magnesium and you can't put it out, you have to deprive it of oxygen. You can't put water on it. It just makes it worse. And so these things just burned and they then set fire to, you know, if they'd gone through the roofs of buildings, they set fire to the buildings, the buildings would be blasted apart.

41:06So they set fire to the contents. And then you're creating a firestorm, which, of course, you remember the images from the Blitz with the firefighters, the firestorm created there. It's what we did in Hamburg, notably, with incendiaries. So you're creating a firestorm to burn the industrial heartland of a country, which sounds terrible, but that's what we were doing. So they're dropping two different types of bombs, high explosive and incendiary. Now, John, you weigh into this big debate about what it was really like for people during the Blitz, not just in London, but around the country, because the way we were taught it in the years after the war and the decades that followed is that Britain actually developed a blitz spirit and that we all pulled together and that people collaborated and cooperated and shared and obeyed the law and behaved in a humane and decent fashion.

41:58And in fact, Hitler had hoped to unleash violent social forces, unleash rebellion, revolution, factional unrest. In fact, he did the opposite and those bombs made it a more civil and polite society. Having studied all these sources now and talked to so many people, where do you stand on this? What was the reality of the communities that had been bombed? Well, there was a community spirit. You could call it the blitz spirit, if you like. And you can see plenty of examples of this. The bombing of Coventry would probably be one of the classic examples. And so November 1940, you know, again, Coventry is one of the big images that people have of the Blitz, where you had 4 ,500 homes destroyed, the fires that destroyed Coventry.

42:44And in the aftermath, there are stories about women coming out and the fires are still burning the next morning. And they've got tea urns on their strap to their back and they're going out and they've got sandwiches and they're feeding the firefighters and they're helping to rescue people and they're helping to clear the debris. So that definitely existed, but there is no doubt that the concept of a blitz spirit was something that was encouraged by the government and was not always there. There were looters. There's no doubt about that. There are clear examples of looters. There are clear examples of people selfishly hoarding and not helping their neighbours.

43:24One of the examples that I talk about is some of the crime. And there was real crime. I mean, there was real crime, nevermind the non-crime incident. So there was a massive increase in unmarried pregnancies, which was a big thing back then. There was a massive increase in venereal diseases, a huge increase in the occurrence of sexually transmitted diseases. But one of the incidents that I really kind of focus in on as an indicator, there were really quite nefarious people who use the blackout for their own hideous aims. One of the stories I tell is of the blackout ripper, who's an Air Force guy in actual fact, who used the blackout to stalk the streets in and around London, murdering, raping, mutilating women.

44:12He used the blitz and the blackout as a cover for something that he already was. He was clearly a murderer and a rapist, but he used that as a cover. And the story, what he did, how he was discovered, his execution during an air raid in London, in actual fact, is an incredible story. So the Blitz spirit was there. It existed, but it was certainly something that was hyped up by the government at the time, which chose to, in many cases, the government didn't inform the people about many of the horrors that were going on in the bombing. And they certainly weren't looking at some of those aspects either.

44:53So the Blitz spirit existed, but they were adjunct to that as well. So the Blitz is usually, we usually talk about the Blitz, as you say, and ending in May 1941 as Hitler sends the vast majority of his air forces to the east to take on the Soviet Union, but it will go on through the war. There'll be V1 and V2 attacks. What do you think is the legacy of the Blitz. We talked about the legacy that lives on in the minds and the lives of people like Millie to this day. Presumably the legacy you can see as you drive through cities around Britain now, you can see that legacy. You can absolutely see it.

45:28And if you go to London, St. Paul's Cathedral, obviously an iconic image of the Blitz, St. Paul's Cathedral. There's a famous image of St. Paul's Cathedral with smoke rising in the background, but St. Paul's Cathedral survived. But if you know what to look for, so first of all, there's a couple of very small memorials in the grounds of St. Paul's Cathedral to the Blitz generation that I didn't know about until I went to look for them. There's a memorial to the firefighters just across the road from St. Paul's Cathedral. And if you go around the back, you can look at the shrapnel marks on the wall.

46:05There are still World War II shrapnel marks spreading up the wall. And in our own church, I think you've been to St. Clement Dane's, the RAF church on the Strand, Dan. So that was bombed and destroyed during the Blitz and rebuilt in the aftermath. And it is now the RAF church. And if you go there, if you know where to look, you can see the shrapnel marks going up the side of the wall where bombs exploded. and they're still there. And anything from kind of golf ball size to football size chunks out of the wall that have never been repaired, you can still see that if you know where to look. So, you know, I did that in Newcastle where I live in North Shields.

46:47When I was going around looking at the bomb plot map in different areas, you can see what were either Edwardian, Victorian housing. and then every now and then there's some what are now relatively new houses and they're just stuck in the middle. You'd never say, oh, look at those two completely different houses on that row. But my daughter, I can see why that is. I can find that photograph of the before and then I can see the building that's collapsed and I can see people getting their possessions out and now I can look now And I can see the 1950s, 1960s, quite kind of industrial building that's been put in the place.

47:29So you really can, if you're interested, you can really track where your own area was affected by the German bombing during the war. about a decade ago i was in hull and i went to see the last building in britain that was still derelict as a result of the blitz and it was in the you know 21st century it's a cinema in hull they've actually since 2024 they've fixed it up so it's now a community center i think it's a memorial but you would go and there would still be behind hoardings the windows are blown out it looked a bit you know there's plants growing out of it that was blitz damage that was yet to be repaired.

48:05I got to see that. That was an astonishing thing. So anyone, if you visit Britain and North Island, you will see, well, you'll see landscapes, city shapes completely transformed by the Blitz. Hull is what is called the forgotten city, Dan, because very few people do. It's interesting that you talk about that. So for some reason, it was never named during the war on any of the bombing. And lots of places weren't, but it was just called, I think the government referred to it as an unnamed northeast coast town. But Hull, again, port city, was absolutely battered. 1 ,200 people killed, 3 ,000 injured in Hull.

48:41And we talk about the Blitz being those kind of few months around Christmas 1940, last civilian casualties in Hull. March the 17th, 1945. March, just weeks before the end of the war, a lone German bomber swept along Holderness Road in Hull, simply dropping its bombs, killing 13 people. The last civilian Luftwaffe casualties of the war. Hull. People just don't talk about that. Crazy. But you know, so these tiny little places all over our nation, suffering till the final days of the war. Suffering. Yeah. Well, thank you, John, for another brilliant book from you. What's it called? Make sure everyone knows the title.

49:24It is blitz when World War II came home. Thank you very much, John Nickel, for coming on the pod and talking about it. Thanks, Dan. It's always a great pleasure. I really appreciate it, mate.

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