The Real St George and the Dragon

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2:47The legend went that near the city of Silene in Libya, there lived a terrible dragon in a lake beside the town. Its poisonous breath killed anyone who came near, so people tried to appease it by feeding its sheep, presumably from a distance. When the sheep ran out, the citizens began sacrificing people instead, chosen by lottery. Eventually, the king's own daughter was selected. Dressed as a bride for this moment of death, she went to the lake weeping. But there she encountered a Christian knight that was riding past, St George. When she warned him to flee, George made the sign of the cross and charged the dragon with his lance, wounding it.

3:40Then comes one of the strangest parts of this medieval tale. St George told the princess to throw her girdle around the dragon's neck. She does so and suddenly the beast became tame, the medieval chroniclers say, like a meek beast. The princess leads it back into the city while terrified crowds scatter in panic But George tells the people not to fear If they convert to Christianity and are baptised he promises to kill the dragon The king and thousands of citizens agree George draws his sword and kills the dragon There's a version of it that says four ox cards were needed to haul away the enormous body of the beast The king ordered a great church be built on the spot where the dragon had died dedicated to the Virgin Mary and St George.

4:26Lo and behold, from beneath the altar, a miraculous spring suddenly sprang up, the waters of which could heal the sick. George refused the king's gifts of treasure, urging instead the wealth be distributed among the poor, the widows, the churches, and those in need. Then he departed, riding off into the horizon, continuing his journey.

4:55The George and the Dragon story, the myth, is one of the most pervasive in Western culture. You see it depicted on cathedral walls, it's stitched into banners and tapestry. It's been passed down through generations. Sports fans today dress up as both George and the Dragon. And that's because George has ended up as the patron saint of England. The Red Cross on the white background is St George's emblem. But it's also the patron saint of other places like Georgia, Bulgaria, Greece and Ethiopia, as well as cities like Barcelona and Beirut. So the question is, was George a real person? And how much truth is there in this legend?

5:37And also, why do so many countries lay claim to him? Well, let's do the easy bit first. He was a real person. He wasn't a knight, though. And the dragon, well, that's not true, funnily enough. That part of the story wasn't added until medieval retellings of the story. But slaying dragons, that's box office, folks. Dragons and serpent-like creatures have appeared in literature for millennia. And so the Christian warrior killing the dragon, saving the princess in the town, well, that's electrifying. That is why so many places have decided that he should be their patron saint. But let's come back to George himself.

6:12There's obviously a whole lot of history to unpack with this one, folks. The best person I can think to do it is the mythologist Jasmine Elmer. She's just written a brand new book called Slay that tells the stories of lesser-known dragon slayers, as well as the history and the mythology of dragons from ancient Greek texts to modern literature like The Hobbit. So thank you for joining us. We unravel the true history behind George and the dragon and tell the story of other dragon slayers through history and what on earth it all means. This is Dan Snow's History.

6:47Jasmine, good to see you. Great to see you too. It's a big story, this one. I mean, first of all, there's a lot of discussion about this. There's a lot of discourse about St George. Who do we think he was? Do we know who he was? Is he a real historical character? Yeah, I mean, that's the fascinating thing, because I think we always think of it as a story, but is there any historical backing to it? And we think of him as this guy that fought the dragon in the end, right? But the story is actually a little bit more humble in its origins, because George was actually just a Roman soldier. So what we do know is that he was born around 280 AD and he was probably a Praetorian guard or a tribune in the Roman army under the Emperor Diocletian.

7:26He was from Cappadocia, which is like central eastern Turkey. So that's where it starts. And where he gets, if you like, any kind of fame is that he was persecuted under Diocletian, who famously went after the Christians. Yeah, not a fan. Not a fan, exactly. And so he said, I would rather Jesus Christ be my king, essentially my emperor, not you. And so was persecuted for that. And that's kind of it. That's the story. And in terms of how historically possible is that, is that a legend or is it true? I mean, that's another really good question, which I'm sure you're going to want the answer to. Yeah, I would.

8:02I mean, I guess there were lots of examples like that as Christianity evolves from a sort of underground, small sect to developing thousands of adherents. I mean, they would have faced, individuals would have faced certain regimes, certain Roman emperors, where they would have faced pretty savage hostility. Well, absolutely. And you know, this is the point Diocletian was famous for it. And a number of Roman emperors at this time, third century Rome is kind of, it's already starting to crumble a little bit. Christianity is a major threat to Roman power, which is obviously built on a pagan system originally.

8:32So yeah, this is going on, this thing is going on. And George is caught up in the middle of that. But as you say, one of very, very many people who were caught up in the middle of that. So how he becomes something on his own is kind of the interesting part of the story, I think. And presumably, like many of these saints, a kind of cult develops. A local place of worship is established. People go on pilgrimage. There's big money in it and it becomes a major shrine, a cult. Is that the sort of thing you see happening here? The thing about St George is it's an evolution across time, like most of these things were the saints.

9:06So you get all of this stuff happening in this sort of third century that we spoke about, AD. We have a few sources for that, so that's where we get the historical. He probably was a real person, probably really did live, and he is mentioned among a few other martyrs on an epigraph. So, you know, it's true. I think we can say that he lived. But then there's this gap, the old school way of calling it the Dark Ages, or the proper way of calling it the early Middle Ages, where we don't really hear much. And then he just pops up around the 11th century again in Cappadocian cave churches in images fighting a dragon and then really famously in about 1260 AD he appears in Jacobus de Veraginae's golden legend which is this book if you don't know it it was a book at the time that was probably more popular than the Bible.

9:56And it was widely understood, read, shared, and it told many stories of saints and people like that. So, you know, to your original question, that's where he starts getting in to be like this, in this gang of saints, which start to grow as a thing. Hagiography is the word, isn't it? So sort of mini biographies of these saints. And he's just what, he's just a bestseller. It's like Victorians wrote heroes for young boys to inspire the next generation of empire builders that this is just that sort of bestseller is it in the 13th century yeah i mean it's just sort of like is he a poster boy like for this christian ideal because what's developed in that time since the roman period in early christianity up to this age that we're talking about now is that with these christian tales he has geographic tales that you're mentioning the idea is now we've got saints that kill baddies monsters and what it really is is it's Christianity and the light fighting the dark and the devil.

10:54And we want all of those tales because we're increasingly having this anxiety about the devil, about sin, about this dark side of life. And he is one of the people that pops up as a really popular saint. Why that's the case is a good question as well. Why him? Why not one of the others? I mean, there are lots of saints that are pretty popular, but he does do pretty well. Okay, well, I'm afraid you've just told me it's Good question. So now I'm going to steal it and ask it right back to you. I mean, as you say, there are thousands of saints. And you know, this one had an interesting story. He persecuted for his faith, steadfast, a soldier.

11:27So he's got military virtue as well. Why do you think Jacobus de Vreyn chooses him to include in his 150 odd mini biographies? If you think about George as a person, what did he represent back in that original story? He represented the everyman. He became the patron saint of like farmers and the military and like a normal bloke in the field. Don't forget that a lot of farmers also doubled up as soldiers back then. So he just had this kind of resonance with the every person. And I think in some ways his simplicity and his, I guess, everyday way of being, this regular bloke vibe, just made him really relatable.

12:09And people enjoyed that because if a regular guy like him can become this saint, then there's hope for us all. And, you know, like his name, George, in Greek, Georgios means farmer. So it was just this kind of like salt of the earth kind of concept, I think, that made him so, so popular. Nice. So, yeah, he's not one of those guys with all the book learning. He's just a soldier. He's a farmer. He's a normal guy. Yeah, exactly that. It just feels like I just think he's a normal bloke. And people go, hmm, okay, I relate to that. and you're right about the origin of like honour in the Roman Emperor being a soldier that's an honourable thing and you know of course standing up for your faith is obviously the core thing in every one of these hagiographical tales anyway so tick tick tick he fits the bill okay so he's doing a job not unlike not unlike Maximus Decimus Meridius inspiring a generation of youngsters people who watch gladiator back in the day yeah I mean I'm just getting distracted now have my thoughts of that so probably get back onto the topic i don't know if he was as good looking basically as russell crowe but yeah but yeah i mean yeah it's that popular figure isn't it it's like kind of rouse rousing the truth sort of thing yeah so suddenly he's very famous in the 13th century and that book will go on and be reproduced and just become what i kind of almost canonical in the christian world let's actually talk about the legend it's perseus and andromeda isn't it andromeda again very similar to the story as you pick up is a princess that is being sacrificed to the Ketos to keep it happy.

13:38And she's changed to the rock. And Perseus is flying back with his winged sandals with the head of Medusa. And he comes and rescues Andromeda from the Ketos using the head. So that story, that whole save the maiden is going to be sacrificing, absolutely has very ancient origins in Greece. There's another story there, isn't there, which is about taking a stand. And it reminds me of all the lessons we learned. You know, St. George, Perseus, these stories, it's about making a stand. It's about doing the hard work of fronting up to evil, isn't it? Yeah, I think you're showing you two colours here, Dan, as a nice bloke that cares about morality, like why you're doing something.

14:21But in these ancient stories, like really the princess is just a conduit. She's almost like the backstory of what's going on, which is hero must defeat dragon to make sure the world is okay and in the classical period that was that concept of order chaos you know like kind of the hero is there doing the bidding of the gods to try and keep the world rid of things a threat and chaotic to human life and and order and civilization and existence and then again with george this time it's let's get rid of the devil let's sort the devil out get rid of him so you're thinking about the princess and the point of it But actually, the point of it is, this is the heroic journey.

15:03This is the very well-trodden tale, first kind of described really by Joseph Campbell in his Hero of a Thousand Faces. There is a heroic cycle. Odysseus does it. Theseus does it. Perseus does it. And now, of course, it carries on later on into the Christian era. St. George is doing it and other figures too. So we just finished the St. George thing, because then there's the bit that everyone gets very excited about once a year, which is he's adopted as the patron saint by these different people. And who's he patron saint of? It's certainly the English, but who else? So many countries, so Portugal, Georgia, Ethiopia, Malta, the Ukraine, and also some cities as well It's a whole range of different nations and places And I don't know about you, but I find this funny because obviously as we know He has been adopted by the far right at times as a figure for his very Englishness And actually he's such a multicultural saint He's kind of welcomed by so many different faiths As well as different people from different ethnicities and backgrounds So really, he represents multicultural Britain more than anything else.

16:07Well, yeah, borrowing ideas and people and things from around the world. And who adopted him, as it were? Why did we end up with him in England? Well, that's another question. I think because of his popularity that was widespread throughout Europe, we felt drawn to him as well in England. So I think there's also some connection. We come into the Crusades here and the popularity of these sorts of stories during the Crusades. So this is a time when English people or Western Europeans are travelling, well literally through that part of the world exactly and bringing back ideas about castle design but i suppose also ideas about christianity and all sorts of things and one of them is that they're picking up this yeah absolutely they're picking up these stories they're bringing them back and again i think that just lends we spoke earlier on about how every man he was and how that made people want to adopt him so i think the english just kind of again like so many resonated with his story and he became very popular but again that's to do with that golden legend spreading across Europe as well, and it being one of those things.

17:04He went viral, put it that way, he kind of went Middle Ages viral. It's very interesting. It just makes you think that we see the world so differently now. I always think the past in some ways so familiar, but in some ways so different. Like imagine being a king of England, just going, yeah, this is our guy, this is our national saint. He's a good unifying figure for us. And it doesn't matter where he's from, because I guess Christianity as an identity was almost more important than those kind of regional identities. So it's fascinating that, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely right. Again, it's that universalising of Christianity, the kind of one faith.

17:34It doesn't really matter. We lose interest in where he's actually from. It's what he does that matters. And I think that is really important for the modern world, right? Like you said, we don't necessarily think like that now always, but what does he stand for? Do I resonate with that? Don't care where he comes from. That feels like that's part of who I am. It would be like us putting Nelson Mandela on our currency or the Brazilians putting Alan Turing on their banknotes. It's that really interesting borrowing. And you think, well, actually, why not? These figures aren't, their nationality is perhaps less important than what they represent for all humanity.

18:07So yeah, it's a really interesting thought. Jasmine, while I've got you, while I've got you, can I ask about these dragons and this myth? Because you've just written a book about this. Did people believe that these mythical beasts had once existed or were they always just a kind of dramatic narrative tool? Have you heard of hereby dragons? Yeah. You've heard of that saying? A lot of people have. I mean, do you know what it was? No. Now that you mention it, I don't know what it was. No. I mean, again, I've heard of it. And we don't always know. So Here Be Dragons was literally written on so many medieval maps as a geographical place.

18:41So yes, they believe that these dragons are real, especially in the medieval period. You know, you could buy dragon's blood for various ailments. there was this concept that dragons are actually around us in the landscape and you also get that in the ancient world a sense that these monsters and dragons are around us but in the ancient world and actually also in medieval periods they are often on the periphery of a civilization so they don't live kind of in your town they're not like they're living on the edges of places which i think i don't need to tell you speaks to the anxiety of what it can feel like to leave the confines and safety of your own community and head, especially in the Greek world, to the edges of the known world.

19:25Because they think that the dragons are living on the parts where it's really dodgy and it's scary. And that is the drop off almost of the whole planet because their world's view is different to ours. So yeah, they're real to a lot of people. You're listening to Dan Snow's History Inn. Don't give up on us just here. There's more coming.

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23:35My kids love stories of the Viking, you know, Jormungand, the huge sort of snake, this sort of dragon-like snake that encircles the world. So they represented the scary bit that lies beyond the horizon, I suppose. Is there something about order and disorder there as well? Yeah, completely. So think about a dragon. Any image you like, because there are different forms of a dragon as well. Like in the ancient world, they are much more serpentine. They're like these long snaky things. And then you'll have that image in your head of this medieval dragon with like the batish wings and the fiery breath.

24:07but either way you think of it it sometimes can be hard to categorize what it is it's not a snake it might be living in the water like you said it might be doing some other stuff it's often has some element of venom or poison and really they themselves therefore in their characteristics are chaotic they're almost uncharacterizable i don't really know quite what i'm looking at and that develops over time as well the more the dragon becomes a bit like a fly you think a bit like a reptile it's scarier and scarier and scarier because it in itself is a chaotic entity and then on top of that you have this idea that often you see in the ancient world like in mesopotamia and in ancient greece you have a hero that fights the dragon the hero symbolizes order and the dragon symbolizes chaos so you get these like massive symmetrical battles between order and chaos.

25:01So, you know, that's inherent in really all dragon myth. It just kind of changes form, no matter that you can be Satan, if you're thinking about Christianity. There's definitely kind of a big battle between order, chaos, light to dark. Yeah, as you said, the light and the dark. I was making a programme about dinosaurs a few years ago, and some of the experts were suggesting that because there was evidence for prehistoric animals, when people looked around them on the south coast of England, for example, but in other places. It's a bit cute to start saying that people did pay attention to these actual physical evidence of massive beasts, you know, huge bones and teeth that would have been traded, would have come out of the soil.

25:39And when there were rock slides or in mining operations, that actually there was sort of evidence for dragons in times past in some ways. Yeah, physical evidence in the form of fossils. Exactly. There's a great book written called The First Fossil Hunters by Adrienne Mayer, where she describes this in a lot of detail and makes a really strong argument for this, especially because we see a lot of dragon myth emerging in a really big way in places like Greece and China. They're earthquake prone regions. So they would have earthquakes and that could rattle things up and then up come fossils. What would you think about that?

26:15You would look at this giant bone and think, what the hell is that? And of course you can see the connection between what a dinosaur looks like and what a dragon looks like you can see that there are similarities so it's a really plausible concept and i think absolutely is part of why we thought dragons existed and where they came from originally but it's not the whole story but it's definitely part of it but as you say it's so interesting this kind of mediate the classic dragon and then the idea they hoard wealth as well it's very interesting because that's something else that you get and then obviously the writings of tolkien that gets transmitted into i suppose we call it science fiction or fantasy and science fiction.

26:50So it seems that dragons, they go from being the other and forces of darkness. By the time you do get to the medieval period, St. George and other saints, there's a pretty standard look and feel to dragons, which is probably the one that we still got today. But you know, there's the teeth, the wings, the fire, it's pretty standardised, isn't it? Exactly. And I think that's interesting, because we just spoke about how in the ancient world, in Greece and Mesopotamia and other cultures, they look like giant snakes, really. There's no wings often. There are a couple of people have wings like Typhon he has wings and there are a Tiamat is sometimes winged but basically they're not usually winged they're usually just snaky and then by the medieval period you've got the wings have come in and they're often like a bit bat-like aren't they the wings they look like bat wings rather than bird wings not feathered usually they're usually bat-like wings and there is breathing fire and and all of this and I think that's really interesting because if you think about it Christianity has taken hold of the dragon if you think about iconography around Satan as a fallen angel and how he can sometimes be depicted with wings and then if the dragon is becoming if basically if the dragon is a symbol for Satan we start seeing that aspect in there as well so we get this dragon and that you're right that that is the one that we've inherited today and it was made super popular really by Beowulf who kind of was the first person to put into literature this type of dragon, the one you just described, the one you know, the dragon that looks like that, fire-breathing wing, hoarding treasure, all of those things are very much a Beowulf thing.

28:24And then everything else is downstream of that, to be frank. So that's a great example of Christianity kind of building on and using the iconography, using the design, the vibes of everything that come before. But as you say, Christianising these dragons, using them to keep telling stories, but this time tell their own stories to engage people with the Christian message. Yeah, and exactly. I mean, we've got to be real. Like a dragon is terrifying as well. I mean, it's not a good thing. You don't really want to face a dragon. It's not going to be great. And so in terms of it being a symbol of Satan or evil, it does the job.

28:59Everything is always borrowed. And in mythology, what a great borrowing because it does just fit the bill. So yeah, it makes sense, doesn't it? and there are other dragons it's not just St George is it there are other dragons in the stories of the saints yeah absolutely there are quite a few different dragons across a number of stories with saints so it's something that is being rolled out I mean how do we think of it really um like almost like a pro-formal like a template is sort of being replicated across other stories as well and the one that really interests me is Saint Margaret okay tell me about her so So nobody knows about St.

29:35Margaret. I mean, have you ever heard? I mean, I can imagine there's a saint called Margaret, but no one's ever heard of her. I write about her in my book because this is the point. I think that we don't know about her, but she's actually, she was as popular, if not more popular than St. George during the Middle Ages. So St. Margaret, similar story in some ways. You're going to see some parallels here with George. So she lived in Antioch, similar sort of time to George. She was the daughter of a pagan priest, but was brought up away from the city and was a devout Christian. And then the evil Roman governor, Illibrius, sees her and fancies her, wants her.

30:12And he tries to marry her and ask her to renounce her faith in order to do so, because he was a pagan. And she refused. And so you can guess what happened next. She was tortured. And she's put in this cell and she's being tortured. and she says to God, like, just show me physically the thing that is torturing me. I want to see it with my own eyes. I don't want it to be all like hidden. And so a big massive dragon appears in her cell and is like, you know, you get what you asked for. Careful what you manifest. That's what I'm saying. Up it comes. And so she doesn't have any weapons or anything.

30:51So she can't really do much, but it swallows her whole. It just swallows her down into his stomach. She makes the sign of the cross and asks God for help and she bursts out of its stomach and kills it. I mean, sadly, she still dies because you have to, you're being martyred. So she still then goes on to be tortured and killed. But she became the patron saint of childbirth and pregnancy. So we had that example with George being kind of like the everyman and it's like Margaret became the everywoman and became so popular to the point where we have 250 churches in the UK alone named after Saint Margaret.

31:27One of them really famously is at the Houses of Parliament. Oh yes, St. Margaret's Church. Okay, so that's St. Margaret. Exactly. Wow. Yeah, that's St. Margaret, that one. And you see what I mean? You're like, oh, I know that church, but you don't know the story. And that's something that I'm trying to do with my book, because I want people to know both stories. Sadly for Margaret, why she felt, I guess, our popularity for us today, rather than historically, is because in 1969, the Vatican took her off the list of, universal list of saints that we acknowledge they did that regularly throughout history actually george made the cut whereas margaret didn't that's tough yeah i know so we've still got george but not her and actually i think this is giving us a really skewed view of like what dragon slaying is because we're missing that sort of female story as well and it's interesting that she doesn't use weapons she just sort of makes the it's a more gendered response to being eaten by a dragon isn't it she just makes sand the cross and the dragon just bursts open exactly like there's a real difference between how women slay dragons, because she's not the only female dragon slayer story out there, but women tend to slay dragons in a different way.

32:30They use their tools that they have. Here, her tool is faith. That's what she uses. In that sense, you could argue that she's even more devout than St. George. She doesn't need cold steel. Exactly. Doesn't need to shank him. Just carry on. No problem. Just use my faith. So, you know, she's this amazing figure and deeply respected and popular, but just, you know, nothing really, very little out there in the popular imagination about her. Amazing, isn't it? So yeah, I mean, coming back to St. George, I mean, St. George, how do you see St. George now? Because he's probably talked about more in a national context than a religious one.

33:08I mean, I don't know how important St. George is as part of the kind of Christian calendar, but in terms of AI images that you see shared on social media around him killing baddies and wearing the St George's cross. It seems he's entered a kind of new dimension, it feels like. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what your take on that is when you've seen it out there. I guess we're sort of also here treading into what does this all mean to us today almost? But I think that the heroic nature of what he's doing is appealing to people. I don't know what your take is on it, but I feel like we are living in times where we really want champions again because life is not, the world isn't great right now and people are feeling disenfranchised, powerless at times.

33:58And I think he's obviously a very powerful figure. Some of us have that connection to him in childhood. I don't know about you, Dan, but at school, I just did so much about St George and the Dragon. It's a really popular primary school thing to do. I don't know if it still is actually, but it certainly was when we were younger. So maybe it's about nostalgia as well, perhaps an element of nostalgia that if it's older people sharing it, that they feel connected to him? Well, it's just for me, I've just learned a lot listening to you thinking about how early Christians are borrowing the best stories and icons and images from what's gone before, from the pagan world.

34:36When we are now talking about St George, yeah, we're talking less about his faith, but more about the fact he's good at killing dragons and he's a hero and he doesn't want any payment for saving the town. and how interesting that that process endures. We're now borrowing from what's gone before and redefining it for our era. And obviously it would be wrong to not talk about the general backdrop of our full obsession with fantasy now. So fantasy as a genre in film, television, books, whatever you like, even in iconography and AI, all of these images, like the dragon is front and centre. And I mean, that's been happening obviously across the 20th century, but it is so acute now it's so popular and i think that now it's almost like we're borrowing that language to explore ourselves again dragons are back dragons are back why do you think we're so obsessed with fantasy right now i personally feel like it's because we're looking for some escapism we want kind of transference into a world that is very different to our own i don't know whether you will agree especially among the younger generation i feel like we need to talk to like a Gen Z-er on this because I think that they'll have a really good view.

35:46But I don't know, because we're a bit old, right? I obviously completely agree and it works really well. Also, it's really international, isn't it? As you mentioned in this conversation, Koreans, Japanese, Brits, Chinese, everyone, the dragon means something and travels really well. Jasmine, thank you so much. Tell everyone the name of your book. It's called Slay and it was published on the 2nd of July. Go and check it out, everyone. Thanks for coming on, Jasmine. Thanks so much.

36:15Thanks so much to Jasmine for joining me. Be sure to check out her book Slay, which is out now. And make sure you hit follow if you've enjoyed this episode. We cover just about everything on this show, so take a browse through our back catalogue and you'll see all sorts in there. You can jump into any episode on this feed. No prior knowledge necessary. See you next time.

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38:07Thank you.

38:37Thank you.