In short
Listener Q&A on black holes, hypothetical white holes, and wormholes; includes how white holes might “pair” with black holes and what evidence could look like.
Guests/backgrounds
Daniel (particle physicist and UC Irvine professor). Kelly (studies parasites as an adjunct at Rice University). Jorge (co-host; explains universe with Daniel).
Key claims
White holes are not well-defined and may not exist; in GR they’re like a mirror image of black holes (nothing can enter; paths to them don’t exist). If an “eternal” black hole existed, theory suggests a connected white hole region. Such connections resemble one-way wormhole-like behavior.
Notable examples
Penrose coordinate argument motivating “blank spot”/blocked region; laser-photon “ricochet” analogy; discovery analogy to black holes (radiation-free vs emitting light from an unexplained source).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODiscussion on Chemistry and Physics
0:30 to 0:55
Hosts discuss their views on chemistry and its relation to physics.
“Morgan & Morgan, 332 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago.”
Discussion on Chemistry and Physics
0:59 to 2:25
Hosts discuss their views on chemistry and its relation to physics.
“This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.”
Exploring Audience Questions
2:41 to 5:51
Hosts explain the podcast's mission and invite listener questions.
“We love physics on the podcast, don't we?”
Understanding White Holes
5:51 to 6:30
Introduction to the concept of white holes and related theories.
“So today on the podcast, we'll be answering.”
Black Holes and Their Mysteries
6:30 to 13:08
In-depth discussion on black holes, white holes, and their theoretical connections.
“So but but often I think that in science, sometimes things don't have to be super analogous, but we're just like, well, it'd be kind of fun if I named it this thing that I found something similar.”
Black Holes and Their Mysteries
14:28 to 14:48
In-depth discussion on black holes, white holes, and their theoretical connections.
“And so are the benefits of adding Vital Proteins Collagen Peptides to your daily routine.”
Listener Questions on Black Holes
14:52 to 15:55
The hosts respond to questions about black holes and wormholes.
“This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.”
Theories on White Holes
16:05 to 17:38
Discussion on the existence and implications of white holes in physics.
“I just finished reading Aurora by Kim Stanley Robinson.”
Challenges in Understanding Space and Time
17:39 to 21:05
Exploring the complexities of space, time, and theoretical constructs.
“Is that that would be evidence if you saw something like that?”
The Nature of Theoretical Physics
21:06 to 23:00
Discussion on the uncertainties and the future of theoretical physics.
“It might just be a feature of our classical theory of general relativity.”
Show all 12 chapters
The Nature of Theoretical Physics
24:04 to 25:02
Discussion on the uncertainties and the future of theoretical physics.
“If you've been injured in a car accident, call America's largest injury law firm.”
The Nature of Theoretical Physics
25:42 to 26:14
Discussion on the uncertainties and the future of theoretical physics.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Daniel Fernández:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
0:30Kelly Weinersmith:Morgan & Morgan, 332 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago. Aging doesn't stop, and neither should you, with Vital Proteins Collagen and Protein Shakes. Because around the age of 30, your body needs more support for movement and recovery. On workout and rest days, reach for a 30-gram total protein shake, or go with our classic collagen peptides. Help support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones, and joints, so you can stay vital, stay you. Visit VitalProteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
1:05Kelly Weinersmith:Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts. Why did I search the internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
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2:25Kelly Weinersmith:Visit Bahamar.com today and discover a vacation destination where memories are made for a lifetime. Bahamar. Life spectacular.
2:41Daniel Fernández:Hey, Kelly. We love physics on the podcast, don't we?
2:45Kelly Weinersmith:Yes, especially when it's not physics that's threatening the lives of my children, yes.
2:50Daniel Fernández:And we're big fans of biology, of course.
2:53Kelly Weinersmith:Naturally.
2:54Daniel Fernández:And we agree that chemistry is not a science, but actually a torture device invented to ruin the lives of 10th graders around the world, right?
3:02Kelly Weinersmith:Well, it might be complicated. I mean, yes, chemistry was the one class in college I got a B plus in and I hated it. And I still kind of hate it. But like, you know, food chemistry, it's complicated.
3:14Daniel Fernández:Wait, are you a pro-chemistryite? Is that what's happening here?
3:17Kelly Weinersmith:It's just it's not so black and white. That's what I'm saying.
3:37Daniel Fernández:Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I believe in drawing clear, bright lines between the sciences.
3:47Kelly Weinersmith:You know, I think one of my favorite episodes that we did was about whether or not we need to be thinking about biological questions at the level of physics. And so I don't think I believe that you like to draw black and white lines between topics. And I think we both agree, it's more fun when they kind of meld into one another.
4:04Daniel Fernández:No, you're right. All of science is a big squishy endeavor, but chemistry is on the other side of that line.
4:08Kelly Weinersmith:Yeah, no, we hate chemistry. That's fine. O-chem, like, maybe the hardest thing I've ever done. Like, O-chem, then childbirth.
4:19Daniel Fernández:you shouldn't do either of those without anesthetic that's right that's right i'm
4:24Kelly Weinersmith:kelly i got bees in chemistry and uh i'm at race university where i study parasites
4:29Daniel Fernández:as an adjunct and welcome to the podcast daniel and jorge explain the universe in which we talk about our love for physics and the universe and we try to avoid negging chemistry but it's
4:40Kelly Weinersmith:unavoidable sometimes yeah yeah no you it makes you feel better too sometimes so you just need You got to go for it.
4:47Daniel Fernández:I just like provoking those chemistry loving listeners because, you know, I love your messages in my inbox, even if they're angry rants about how wonderful chemistry is. Send them to me.
4:56Kelly Weinersmith:Out of all the fields that you probably don't want to make people angry in, I think the chemists probably have the most ways to like kill you in ways that can't be tracked.
5:04Daniel Fernández:So be careful. Tread lightly, Daniel. I'm not sure this was well thought out in the end, but we do want to hear from you. We want to hear about your love for chemistry, your love for physics, and also your questions about the nature of the universe. Because on this podcast, we believe that everybody deserves to understand what we do and don't know about the universe, to have it explained to them in a way that's understandable, that clicks in their mind. And so if you have a question about how the universe works that you haven't heard a sufficient answer to, please write to us to questions at danielandjorge.com.
5:38Daniel Fernández:You will always hear from us, even deep into the far future. When we're writing emails from caves in front of the flickering fire because chemistry has destroyed the world, we will still answer your questions.
5:50Kelly Weinersmith:That's right. Nothing can stop us.
5:51Daniel Fernández:So today on the podcast, we'll be answering.
5:58Daniel Fernández:Listener questions, fall equinox edition. We are happy to be back in your ear holes talking about the mysteries of the universe and specifically answering questions from listeners like you.
6:10Kelly Weinersmith:And we must be out of practice because otherwise we wouldn't have threatened the chemists.
6:14Daniel Fernández:That's true. Exactly. Good to shake off the rust a little bit. Wait, rust is chemistry, isn't it? Uh-oh. See? Anyway, today we have a question that's definitely about physics, but it's also about things that are black and white. This is a question from Wyatt about white holes.
6:30Kelly Weinersmith:hey daniel and jorge i have a question about black holes i've heard of some theories about white holes existing and i was wondering where the white holes would get all the stuff they were spewing out could it be possible that somehow black holes and white holes are connected if that is the case then theoretically is it possible to escape a black hole thank you so much Wyatt. So I don't think that I've ever heard about a white hole, but then you're going to be like, Kelly, you forget you were on an entire episode where we spent an hour talking about this because my memory is really, really good.
7:07Kelly Weinersmith:So but but often I think that in science, sometimes things don't have to be super analogous, but we're just like, well, it'd be kind of fun if I named it this thing that I found something similar. So, so yeah, tell me about white holes and are they like the opposite of a black hole? Like what is, what is the deal here? Yeah.
7:25Daniel Fernández:White holes are very confusing because they're not even a very well-defined concept. Like a black hole, at least we know exactly what we're talking about. And we know in general relativity, it's a region in space where things can fall in, but nothing can leave because space is so twisted, so bent up that every path forward leads towards the center. The idea of a black hole is not just that there's a very powerful force of gravity, but that space itself is curved in such a way that every path just leads towards the center, right? It's a real extreme version of general relativity. It really forces you to think about things not in terms of gravity as a force, but as the bending of space-time changing how things move.
8:07Daniel Fernández:So that's what a black hole is. A white hole is much more fuzzy. Some people in gravitational theory and in quantum gravity say white holes don't even exist. They're nonsense. So there's lots of disagreement about what they are. But as you say, there's sort of like an analogy to black holes. People ask like, well, what about the opposite of a black hole? What would that be like? And so a white hole is sort of like, you know, take a black hole and flip it through the mirror. What would it look like? And that's what you get is a white hole. And so a White hole, in theory, would be a region of space where instead of not being able to escape, nothing can go in, right?
8:41Daniel Fernández:It's a place you can't enter. So things can escape somehow if they're already there, but nothing could go into a white hole. It's a place in space where there are no paths to it instead of no paths out of it.
8:53Kelly Weinersmith:So it's like running into a wall, like with the roadrunner and coyote. Is that like you just, you can't get in there?
8:59Daniel Fernández:It's not like there's a wall there that's preventing you. You have to think about space as being curved and there's just like no way to get there. It's not like there's an obstacle between you and there. It's just like no paths lead there. You have to try to like Google Maps something and it's like there is no route. That's essentially this idea that there might be places in space that are blocked off by the curvature so that you can never even get there. Not that you can't escape, but that you can never even get there. And they're motivated by this sort of theoretical calculation that Roger Penrose did.
9:31Daniel Fernández:he thought about like the way space is organized around a black hole and he carved it up into these coordinates and there's the coordinates near the black hole and coordinates in the black hole and the way that he sort of laid it out on a piece of paper there's like a blank spot it suggests that there could be a place in space where particles could go from there but because of the shape of the event horizon near black hole they could never get in there and so it's sort of conceptually try to like cross the t or dot the i to say like well if it's here on the piece of paper maybe it also actually exists out there in the universe and so the thing that would be
10:10Kelly Weinersmith:keeping you from getting there is that like some force is pulling you too hard for you to be able to move into that space is that the okay yeah exactly so imagine for example there's a white
Read the full transcript
10:23Daniel Fernández:hole somewhere in space and you have a laser and you shoot your laser at the white hole and you think, well, why can't my photon go into the white hole? Well, the reason it's a white hole is that space is curved around it. And so if you try to shoot your laser at the white hole, you'll find that it doesn't go in. It bends through curved space and goes in another direction. The same way, for example, if you shoot a laser beam near a black hole, it can bend around the black hole and go in some other direction, right? We know that curved space can change the path of photons than any other particle, right?
10:56Daniel Fernández:That's what curved space does. That's why curved space is so awesome, because it can even change the path of photons, which have no mass. They technically feel no gravity. But that's why it's important to think about gravity as curvature of space, changing the path of particles that flow through it. So now just arrange space to have curvature so that no matter what direction you shoot a photon from, it basically glances off. It's like the perfect armor. You have space as a shield so that anything that comes near you just ricochets off and goes in another direction. It's not like a wall there. It's not a force.
11:30Daniel Fernández:It's the curvature of space itself that you've arranged in this way that photons glance off and go in another direction.
11:37Kelly Weinersmith:What would you need to have for that to happen? Am I making sense? How would that come about?
11:43Daniel Fernández:Yeah, you're perfectly making sense. And nobody really knows the answer to that question, because it's not really like a solid theoretical concept. Nobody knows how a white hole could form. There's this theory that if there was a black hole, which had existed forever, an eternal black hole, not one that was created, we have like a star that collapses and forms a black hole, but a black hole, which it somehow existed forever, even though we think the universe has a finite age. in general relativity, imagine somehow an infinitely old universe that doesn't have a big bang at the heart of it. So you could have eternal black holes.
12:18Daniel Fernández:These things somehow would also have white holes attached to them. And that's essentially what Wyatt is asking about. Somehow, if you have an eternal black hole formed in such a way that it's always existed, right? So I guess not formed, just like exists, then it naturally has a region of space, which is also a white hole. So we don't know how to make one. But if an eternal black hole existed, then theory suggests there would also be a paired with it a white hole and the two are connected. So the singularity of the black hole is connected to the edge of this white hole in such a way that things that fall into the black hole could come out the white hole.
12:55Kelly Weinersmith:But only if the black hole always existed.
12:58Daniel Fernández:Only if the black hole always existed. So we don't know how to make this, but it is compatible with general relativity. It's very similar situation to the other mind bending concept in general relativity of wormholes. Wormholes are the connection between two points in space. The idea that like, all right, I'm here and I want to be an alpha centauri, but I don't want to fly through four light years of space to get there because the speed of light means that would take forever. What if instead of flying through space, there was just like a connection between my spot in space and their spot in space.
13:29Daniel Fernández:So I could just like step through a portal to go from here to there. That's allowed in general relativity. That's called a wormhole.
13:36Kelly Weinersmith:I think one of my biggest disappointments with physics or maybe physicists is that you all haven't figured that out yet because wormholes would be great.
13:46Daniel Fernández:And I want to get to Wyatt's question about white holes. But first, let's take a quick break.
13:56Kelly Weinersmith:I'm John Morgan of Morgan of Morgan. If you've been injured in a car accident, call America's largest injury law firm. For over 35 years, my mission has been to deliver more for our clients, to deliver more for you. If you or anyone in your family has been injured in a car accident, call us now as the time to file a claim may be limited. Last year, more clients hired Morgan & Morgan than ever before. Protecting America. Fighting for you. Morgan & Morgan. Injured? Dial Pound Law. Morgan & Morgan. 332 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago. Aging is real. And so are the benefits of adding Vital Proteins Collagen Peptides to your daily routine.
14:32Kelly Weinersmith:Because around the age of 30, your body needs backup to keep your collagen up. To help support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones, and joints. Available in the classic collagen peptides. Collagen and protein shakes. And new Vital Proteins Collagen Sparkling Waters. So you can stay vital, stay you. Visit VitalProteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts. Why did I search the internet for answers to my cold sore problem?
15:05Kelly Weinersmith:Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
15:19Daniel Fernández:Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Health care just got less painful.
15:54Kelly Weinersmith:So much more. Visit Bahamar.com today.
16:04Daniel Fernández:Okay, we're back and we're answering listener questions about black holes and white holes and wormholes and all the holes that they make in your brain.
16:12Kelly Weinersmith:I just finished reading Aurora by Kim Stanley Robinson. And I think interplanetary travel would be super cool, but probably it will mostly just kill people unless we can figure out something like the wormholes. So anyway, get on it, please.
16:26Daniel Fernández:Heck, I even want wormholes for like going to work or going to the grocery store. Like imagine you don't need a shopping cart and load it into your car and then unload it from your car and load it into your fridge. You could just stand at your fridge, open a wormhole to the grocery store and just take stuff off the shelf directly into your fridge.
16:42Kelly Weinersmith:Theft would be a much bigger problem in a world with that technology.
16:47Daniel Fernández:That's an engineering challenge once we figure out the physics. But yes, wormholes are definitely something we aspire to. And the amazing thing is that they're not ruled out in general relativity. They're allowed. But again, we don't know how to make them. We can say that a wormhole can exist in the universe. General relativity doesn't forbid it. But we don't know how to go from a universe without a wormhole to a universe with a wormhole and still follow all the laws of general relativity. It's like saying, oh, yes, that house would hold itself up. We have no idea how to construct it. So it also holds itself up while it's half built.
17:18Daniel Fernández:We don't have a path to go from a no wormhole universe to a wormhole universe. and in the same way we don't know how to go from a universe without a white hole black hole pair connected by a wormhole to a universe that has one we can say if it exists in the universe and has always existed somehow weirdly in a way that makes no sense then that's fine with the laws of physics but we don't know how to go from not having one to having one how to basically build a white
17:43Kelly Weinersmith:hole ugh ugh is all i could think this is this is complicated uh let's imagine a white hole does exist out there what would you see that would make you be like oh my gosh we actually found one and would it be something emerging like you put your laser out there the laser goes around the bend of space time but then a laser comes back out through the spot that you tried to get it into but it couldn't and then you were like, whoa, something came out of the white hole. Is that that would be evidence if you saw something like that?
18:15Daniel Fernández:Yeah, that's a pretty good short version of it. Let's unpack it a little bit. Like one way to discover a white hole is to see evidence of a place in space that nothing can enter. The same way we look for black hole as a region of space that's emitting no light, no radiation. We know this tremendous curvature, but we don't know what's there and it's not glowing in any way. And so that's how we, for example, discovered black holes near the center of the galaxy. We see things zooming by, so we know there's a lot of mass in a very small space, but we can't actually see anything. In the same way, we might discover white hole by finding some location in space where weirdly photons get bent around it.
18:51Daniel Fernández:The more direct evidence would be a place in space that's emitting light with no other explanation, right? If laser beams are shooting out of some place in space and there's no known origin for it, that's like a great analogy to, you know, laser beams are being eaten by this black hole. So if laser beams are just being generated by space, that would be a really fascinating clue about white holes. The problem is, though, that we don't know that white holes would have to generate radiation. The thing about a white hole is that nothing can enter it, but that also means that nothing has to leave it.
19:23Daniel Fernández:Things can leave it, but they will only leave the white hole if they're in there. So you could have a white hole that's empty, nothing can enter it, and so things could leave it if they were there, but there's nothing in there, so it's basically invisible. And so it's possible to have white holes that are like quiet, that don't emit anything. But if you have a white hole that's connected to a black hole, I think this is why it's questioned. If black holes and white holes are connected, then stuff could fall into the black hole and be connected to the white hole and come out the other side of the white hole.
19:55Daniel Fernández:And that would be basically like a wormhole. But it'd be one directional, right? You couldn't like go back in the white hole. So you take that trip to Alpha Centauri, you're in Alpha Centauri unless there's another black cold white hole pair going the other direction.
20:07Kelly Weinersmith:And when you get to Alpha Centauri, are you still spaghettified?
20:11Daniel Fernández:Yeah, there's a whole lot more to figure out there from an engineering perspective because these wormholes are minuscule, you know, they're particle sized. And so to make them larger requires all sorts of exotic technology. We definitely do not have like particles that radiate energy, negative mass particles essentially expand space the way dark energy does. We don't know if that's possible at all. And as you approach the mouth of this black hole, you would still be spaghettified. So in order to be safe, you'd want the black hole to be really, really large because larger black holes have weaker tidal forces near their edge.
20:47Daniel Fernández:So there's a lot to figure out before you're willing to send your kids to the store using a black hole, white hole pair for sure. But in principle, it is theoretically possible. But again, we don't know how to build it. So it's really a ways off and it might turn out in a fuller understanding of gravity that the thing makes no sense at all. That white holes don't exist. It might just be a feature of our classical theory of general relativity.
21:10Kelly Weinersmith:Oh, physics. You're so crazy.
21:13Daniel Fernández:The thing I love about this question is that it highlights like really how little we understand about the basic nature of space and time. You know, Newton thought about space and time is absolute and infinite, just like the backdrop of the universe. But we now know that it's more interesting than that. We know that space can twist and ripple and curve and expand and do all sorts of funny things, but we still don't really understand what space is. And we know that our current theory, general relativity, has got to be incomplete. It's got all these wacko predictions, some of which come true, like black holes and other things like singularities inside black holes, we're pretty sure are wrong.
21:47Daniel Fernández:And other weird features like white holes, we're like, man, that is bonkers. Let's figure this all out. but in 100 years or 500 years when we have figured this all out people are going to look back and think wow we really didn't understand anything back in 2024 so the good news is that there's
22:04Kelly Weinersmith:lots of job security in physics because there's lots of work left to do it turns out the universe
22:10Daniel Fernández:is a pretty big puzzle so thank you very much why to write again with your particular question about physics we want to hear from all of you forever and deep into the infinite future if you have questions about the nature of the universe, please write to us to questions at danielandjorge.com. But just to wrap up, Wyatt, the answer is white holes are a very fuzzy theoretical concept. Not even every theorist thinks that they make sense theoretically, but if they do exist and they have always existed in the universe, then it's possible that they are connections between black holes and white holes and that you could go into a black hole and emerge from a white hole.
22:46Daniel Fernández:But Kelly would have to sign off on a permission slip telling you that it's safe first.
22:50Kelly Weinersmith:I'm only signing off on my kids' permission slips. Everybody else can make their own decisions. I'm only holding back my children from exploring the universe.
22:59Daniel Fernández:You don't feel some sort of in loco parentis obligation as a podcast host?
23:03Kelly Weinersmith:Hosting a podcast doesn't make me feel like I have any obligations whatsoever, but I do feel like I need to let my kids make their own choices eventually, but not yet.
23:13Daniel Fernández:All right, everybody. You heard that. You're on your own. Make your own decisions. All we can do is advise you.
23:18Kelly Weinersmith:That means you can't sue us.
23:21Daniel Fernández:That's really what it means, yes. Chemists or not, you can't sue us. Well, thanks very much for joining us on this black and white episode about drawing boundaries between regions in space. Thank you, Wyatt, for writing in. Thank you, Kelly, for joining me. And thanks, everybody, for thinking about the universe.
23:36Kelly Weinersmith:Thanks, Daniel. Bye.
23:37Daniel Fernández:Tune in next time.
23:43Daniel Fernández:For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Insta, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
24:11Kelly Weinersmith:I'm John Morgan of Morgan & Morgan. If you've been injured in a car accident, call America's largest injury law firm. For over 35 years, my mission has been to deliver more for our clients, to deliver more for you. If you or anyone in your family has been injured in a car accident, call us now as the time to file a claim may be limited. Last year, more clients hired Morgan & Morgan than ever before. Protecting America. Fighting for you. Morgan & Morgan. Injured? Dial Pound Law. Morgan & Morgan. 332 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago. Aging doesn't stop, and neither should you. with Vital Proteins Collagen and Protein Shakes.
24:46Kelly Weinersmith:Because around the age of 30, your body needs more support for movement and recovery. On workout and rest days, reach for a 30-gram total protein shake or go with our classic collagen peptides. Help support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones, and joints so you can stay vital, stay you. Visit vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Honestly. Honestly. Honestly. No one wants to think about HIV, but there are things that everyone can do to help prevent it.
25:18Kelly Weinersmith:Things like PrEP. PrEP stands for pre-exposure prophylaxis, and it means routinely taking prescription medicine before you're exposed to HIV to help reduce your chances of getting it. PrEP can be about 99 % effective when taken as prescribed. It doesn't protect against other STIs, though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sex practices. Ask a health care provider about all your prevention options and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more. Sponsored by Gilead. I'm U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy We all seem to be in a rush these days From work to driving our kids around But when you're behind the wheel Please, do not speed A few minutes saved by going faster Is never worth the risk So follow the speed limit Enjoy the drive Maybe bring some snacks for the kids And know that along the way You're getting quality time with your family
26:08Daniel Fernández:Paid for by NHTSA
26:11Kelly Weinersmith:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
From the publisher
Daniel and Kelly answer a question about how white holes are connected to black holes.
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