Dare to bring creative poetry to every problem - Pablo Juncadella

0:09So, design is this big wheel that we have to try and move on every project that we do, every time. And that is putting the standards of what you do very high, and it's not related to what's going on today, but how do you contribute in something that moves the wheel of the design so that somebody else can build on that? And I believe that this is something we have to try on every project and we will fail 99.99999 % of the time. Yet you have to have the courage to the next day with a new client, with a new project, think, okay, maybe in this one, I can create something that not only is effective to my client, but moves the wheel of design.

1:02Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, the show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. of a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

1:50Today I'm speaking with Pablo Giancadella, co-founder and partner in Mucho, the Barcelona-based branding studio he's been building for nearly 25 years. Pablo's journey started with dyslexia, which he actually understood as a gift. It's his ability to see the world from a different perspective. From redesigning newspapers in his mid-20s to building a global studio rooted in collective intelligence, his path has always been shaped by curiosity, humility and an insistence on moving the wheel of design forward. In this conversation, we explore how limitations become superpowers, why every idea is only a prequel to a better one, and what it truly means to bring poetry, not just solutions, to every problem that lands on your desk.

2:34It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Pablo Junkadella.

2:45Hey Pablo, it's great to see you today. How are you doing? Hi Radim, great to be here. I'm excited to have you here and I always am, I'm excited because what you have achieved, what you do, where you're standing in an ecosystem of creativity today, it's a very unique space and you guys do an incredible work and yeah, I really wanted to know today what it was like to be in the front of branding and design in the year of 2026, but let's introduce you first. Who are you? What do you do? Yeah, my name is Pablo Chancadella and I'm part of this collective called Mucho. I started my career in the city of Barcelona, from which I work and have the offices from.

3:24And I'm part of a few partners who lead Mucho into, I don't really know what, really into projects and into making the best out of every opportunity that we get to work with clients. I would say that's a fair presentation of myself on the professional side. On the personal side, I'm a dad of a 15-year-old daughter and husband to a lingerie designer. That somehow sounds who I am. I want to know about both sides because being a dad to a 15-year-old, we all find ourselves in this world where creativity is still what drives us forward. but our vision gets a little bit confused by the world of AI, the disappearance of junior roles.

4:13There is a cocktail of excitement and a nervous energy of what is going to be and what's going to happen. So what's it like to be a dad to someone who is finding their feet? I think connected to the idea of creativity and how you don't want to impose anything to your kids, but you, of course, you're related to a certain way of thinking. And I've come to realize, and this I think works as a dad, and also we work with very young designers who are trying to find their way professionally. Part of the culture of mucho is almost helping the careers of others. And in that sense, I always come back to the idea that creativity isn't absolutely needed for anything, but it's of great help to anything that you do.

5:01regardless of it being a creative job. Creativity is the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective to the majority and having the capability of making others go to that place. And I find that, in fact, works everywhere. We tend to confuse creativity to the capability of visualizing stuff, but they're really two different things. I'm a firm believer that the best lawyers are creative lawyers, the best businessmen are creative businessmen, And those are people who have or have acquired the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective and bringing people to that perspective.

5:41I love what you're just telling me. That's really good. You mentioned something really important, which is you said as much as you're helping people find their careers, they find their ways. And with the direction of your travel, obviously, you were once upon a time a young designer. You went into the world to find yourself. How much of help did you get on your journey that you're now trying to either pass on or try to do better to what you received? I have to say, I feel like somebody who's been completely blessed by advice from others, from people making me better. Whether those were my bosses or my colleagues, they've come from very different places.

6:21But I've always, since the beginning, it was my partner Mark and I professionally. And I would say that even back in the school days, I was always part of a collective. I was very aware very soon of what the things that I was strong in. But I had always a very clear idea of those areas where I wasn't that strong. And I've always been very blessed in my professional career by advice, by people really being very nurturing you. And to the contrary of the general vision of what the work of a designer, of the community of designers is perceived as, I think it's a very welcoming community. And if you take the time to ask people about things and ask the right questions, I've never found a single designer that I admire or that I really wanted to know things from that wouldn't give me an honest answer and would be nurturing and helping.

7:15And in that same way, I feel obliged to pass that on and be part of the community and build a community within my workplace. and of course this is our competitive environment, an environment that lives with a lot of pressure of constantly having to deliver excellence. But we never should lose sight of that part of the thing where we're all creative, we're all in this big wheel and we're all aiming to become better at what we do. And as long as we're all in that same place, I think it's very important to be generous and share. And that's exactly what you're doing here, no? And then the reason why it makes sense to be having these conversations.

7:59Absolutely. I'm loving the deep gratitude for the journey because not many people can say they feel blessed. But I believe the reason why you say you feel blessed is because, as you said, you're always aware of what you're good at and what you need to learn. And being part of a collective already seems to let go of that sense of identity because it's hard to know who you are and what you want to do at an early age. but sometimes you've got the case of a lone architect i'm gonna build my career i'm gonna do this this is what i believe the world should be like and that's kind of what i was and in your case you're like i am here for us and i think this is one obviously what i would understand i wanted to break through points that make you feel go after what you want with slightly more wider lens be more confident even though it's still early days but you've got that gratitude because what makes me think that you've got space to actually learn and grow from people is because it was a slightly less noisy time and i keep repeating this on this podcast forever but now the world article can make you feel that you need to be somewhat really quick like it's moving faster we've lost the innocence but in your case would you agree that there was more innocence there was more time there was more space for conversations and it didn't feel as pressured so i'll tell you where this is all coming from and i think when i say that i feel blessed is because i was also very very dyslexic and this is also common ground to many people who are creative and so it was very clear to me right from the beginning what things was i gifted for and one things i was starting the race a few meters behind everyone and for that you very fastly realized there's a couple of things that you need one is you're gonna have to end up that race at the same place that everyone so you're gonna have to put more hours in those areas where you're not as gifted and also the majority of people are just okay at everything they do when you're very bad at most of the things but you find out that you are fast finding shortcuts because that's the way for survival when you're very dyslexic and also that you have a visual mind precisely because of the limitations, then you have a tendency to do the things that you're better gifted for.

10:19And so in a way, that selection to somebody like me was already done. It was in the DNA. And it's a question of being lucky enough to understand it soon and get through with it. And then there's the contrary side, which is the majority, which is people who are, like I said, gifted to most of the things. And then making a call, it seems to me that it's the hardest thing to do. And going back to being a dad, I see that my daughter is more or less okay in everything that she does. And I suddenly feel that I was very lucky that I was basically shit at everything aside from a couple of things. And so the selection was done for me.

10:59So I have a hard time giving advice because I feel also very lucky in that sense. And I was in an environment where I was nurtured enough around me to make the best of it.

11:12Pablo Juncadella:We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lax Coffee Co., the first creative speciality coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co. offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins, coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel at luxcoffee.co.uk. You can use the code PODCAST to get 15 % off your first order.

12:02this is interesting about dyslexia because it does feel like you have a handicap and you said you feel like you start behind the starting line and you need to get yourself to the starting line because the most people are in fact to everyone i have spoken to who have openly talked about their dyslexia and their experience of it which was never fine like it was never like okay i'm dyslexic and everything else is fine it was like i'm dyslexic and i'm really struggling in the world all of those people have turned into a superpower all of those people have managed to overcome it because i think even though it sounds like a crippling anxiety like a crippling handicap for some people it gives you almost extra sense of how you go and succeed because you can feel that the world is a bit unfair that you've got this but ultimately it gives you a bit of a different drive as you said i felt i was shit at everything it can feel crashing that you feel like that and you know that what you've been given what i call the vehicle our bodies obviously our hardwired minds and brains and all that stuff no one is the same but i've having this condition can make you feel why is the world unfair it's interesting how you said it because i feel it was a way to try harder actually yeah and also the great advantage is that you're naturally placed in a different perspectives to the majority so going back to this idea that creativity is the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective people who have certain conditions are in a naturally in a place that is different to the majority and that is the key if you become agile enough it's the key to creativity because you're naturally there that's really interesting when you said seeing things from different perspective when you think about you've been given that by nature because you don't see the things from the same way.

13:47You have to find your way to see the things how other people see it. Would you say that? Yeah. My first 10, 15 years of my career were being an editorial designer, doing newspapers. I've had always a hard time finishing an article to read. But I realized that I looked at text in a different way, that I could see headlines from the shape of it. And I was quite equipped to make headlines, to do smart connections that work in handy in the newspaper world. So that's a practical example where somebody who's having a hard time reading can be a very successful editorial designer in territories like newspapers where it becomes very technical and hard to understand and hard to really deal with.

14:31I'm curious about the shapes of headlines. How did you see it? What was that? Do you have a condition when you go, let's say, a condition for letters? I have a way that a certain collection of letters makes me feel something. I don't know if that's a proper connection, but... Yeah, I have a tendency not to look at the words, but look at the shapes. And of course, after, you need to understand what the whole thing is about. But really, you have a natural inclination to shapes more than you do to content. So you're less limited to being loyal to exactly what the words are saying, but more inclined to understand or see tension compositions.

15:09and that in magazines, newspapers, it is about how an image works with a certain word or a certain typeface. And I think it's a slight advantage, but it's an advantage that in the visual world it can work wonders. But when you talk about editorial, obviously you've got limitations. You've got your page sizes. Obviously you've got font sizes. You need to stick to some hierarchy templates, the editorial style. How did you find it? Did you feel like it was the two worlds pulling at each other? It's not like a freedom and limitation with a disadvantage that gave you an expression? Yeah, of course, the newspaper days are long gone and only a few great designers in great organizations still get to do it at the best level.

15:51But in the end, it's the same thing with anything in design. The limitations are there and it's making the best of those limitations that turn something from a good design to a brilliant one. So the rules and regulations and the limitations specifically on newspapers or magazines or editorial have been there for ages. They've been tested. And the beauty of it is that there's still creation. There's still things that are added to from something whose rules and structures we've known for ages. And of course, they need to be respected. They can be challenged, but they have to be challenged always with meaning behind it.

16:30So it's small things. and certainly having that superpower that you refer to somehow help. But it's always within the boundaries and the beauty of it that is within those boundaries. My role here is to join the dots. And I'm now curious, how did a dyslexic designer ended up being working on the magazines and newspapers? That is not a trajectory I was expecting to hear. So let's get to it. To be honest, I have a few legendary fuck-ups that I did that ended up being printed. But I had the privilege to work for a designer called Fernando Gutierrez in Barcelona, and Pablo Martin, which had this studio that was doing editorial, but also identity and graphics and so forth.

17:18So we never really made a difference between one or the other. It just so happens that from then, Fernando was made a partner at Pentagram, and we moved on, and the biggest client he had was to redesign El País. So I was age 22 and having to work in newspapers, which are a very technical environment. And my partner Mark and I used to be Fernando's team and we worked with El País for a couple of years. So by the time we'd ended this process or this time at Pentagram where we were mainly doing this project, We were experts in newspapers. So yes, I had certain limitations, but again, I knew I had those limitations too.

18:03So when it came to writing a headline, of course, when you work at a newspaper, everything's double and triple checked and it's very hard that your mistakes get through. but I always found ways to go around it and editorial design isn't that different to anything. I say that one of the advantages of having, working for a few years with newspapers is that they're the kings of storytelling and design, what we call corporate entity, turned into branding by introducing narratives to brands. And the fact that we came from that editorial background, it was always about telling stories. And to me, there isn't a big difference between designing a bread of a magazine than it is to do a narrative for a brand.

18:51So that was a natural post. In between starting Mucho, our first client was The Observer. So redesigning the newspaper at age 25, we were creative directors of The Observer. When you might remember this time where all the monthly magazines, the music monthly, the sports monthly were in place. So the last, I think, the last great area of newspapers. So we got to really work with brilliant writers who could tell stories and see the power of a narrative and graphics to it. So I think that worked wonders to building Mucho. And I think it's really much embedded in the way we understand brands, in which it's the power of visualization, of explaining stories in a very simple way, in hierarchy of information, where brands are also explained in headlines and then pull quotes and then text.

19:44There is three or four levels of in-depth that you can get to relating to a brand. And it's no different to telling a story on a newspaper. So that's interesting. So I got to find out that you didn't actually choose to go and work on a newspaper. Actually, that work came to you. Do you remember how you felt as a dyslexic designer and going, oh shit, we're doing what? Newspaper? No. The thing is, I didn't turn dyslexic. I was always dyslexic. These are things that I've looked back at it and thought, oh, because when it came to being a graphic designer, I seemed like somebody who was really gifted.

20:19So my flaws, I'd have ways of hiding them. So I've always been dyslexic and it's something that I've always had to deal with. And it's only after that I've realized, hold on, why are things for me easy that seem to be very hard to others? And my answer is that my limitations have created also my virtues. And I just try and make the best of it. I never thought much of I really like doing magazines and newspapers, regardless of me having a hard time reading them or understanding them or having to read an article three times. This is something that by that time I was already accustomed to it. That makes perfect sense.

20:57So you mentioned that you guys worked a few years in Pentagram and then you started with Mark. You started Mucho. How long ago? Was it 20 years you guys worked? Mucho will be next year, 25 years. So I started very early. I started working in my last year of design and I worked for a year with Fernando in Madrid and then joined Pentagram. stayed about two years and then from then went straight to start mucho and our first client was to redesign the observer so yeah i was age 25 when we got the observer job and i was working on redesigning el país age 22 so yeah very early so here's an interesting connection because normally i make connections between my guests work life ambitions stories but when you said you'd redesign observer about 25 years ago it was guardian newspaper and observer that inspired me to get into creativity because one day i had that eureka moment i was like i came from music background i was all into death metal gory images all of that what i see now as a tribalistic branding systems like you have the you never have a problem more knowing what niche music artists are because they stay within the category but he was remember i remember literally getting a copy in the uk of the guardian opening the observer and it was such a dynamic and interesting time i was like wait a minute this vastness of information has to be created every day there's a logic to it and all of a sudden when you talked about the newspapers or magazines being the kings of the storytelling it was the sum of many many many parts that came up with this overall feeling for me i was like i want to do this and of course it was the good time of helvetica you know everything was in Helmetica.

22:45I love Helmetica a lot. So that's interesting because I can join the doors with what you did inspired me 25 years ago to get into what I'm doing now and it gives me a love for typography because the way it was designed laid out maybe it was your shape for headlines and you know the way you designed it came to me so here we go. I didn't know that. To be honest I think the Guardian the Observer had such an amazing design culture where they understood the superpower of design as a key not only to reading and not only to serve a purpose but also to bring brightness and bring inspiration through design and the Guardian has had amazing creative directors and an amazing culture of design so has the observer and I was very lucky to land that job at a very early age and work at a very hard level but also I think one of the best takeaways that I got from that experience, which seems to me almost like another life ago right now.

23:44But it's this idea that not be too precious to ideas. Newspapers force you into a pace where you might get it really right a couple of times and you might get it wrong another couple of times and there'll be another chance the next day. And I feel that this is, it's the right way to approaching our job, where if we fall too much in love with certain ideas, sometimes those ideas are, they're prequel to a better one. And it's really about doing the best that you can with the time that you have. And newspapers have this space where there's a moment where it has to go to print, and that happens every week, or in the case of The Guardian, every day.

24:25And you have to deliver the best that you have for that day. And there'll be another day the next day. And in terms of creative gymnastics, that is a unique environment, a unique way to train your brain. Again, that's why I say I was blessed because this is something that when it happens to you at age 25 and you're having to lead a team of people who are from a very different culture than yours and you get that privilege, then it's an amazing opportunity to build that gymnastics in your mind and take it to the places where you're curious about and you want to develop further. I am super curious about now, 25 years later, how do you reflect on my experience?

25:12Because as you said, it's a collection of so many different moments, as you said, different culture, different themes, in a kind way. You hadn't lived enough to know so many things about newspaper design. You've only been a designer and editor for about three years, and all of a sudden you're in charge of something that's been in motion for 100 plus years. so how did you feel that all of a sudden it's exciting but it's also daunting because there's a lot of weight on your shoulders to get it right but i think the comparison isn't fair in the sense that the beginning of your career years feel much longer than when they do as you go on no and you will see this with your kids you know going back to being parents for my daughter three months is is an ordeal of time, while for us, three months go really fast.

26:00So yes, it was three years, but it was three years of being in Madrid, working for El País and working at a studio in Barcelona, then going back to London and understanding the culture of Pentagram, spending two years at the culture of Pentagram, and then going to the Observer. At the same time, I was starting my own company in Barcelona, commuting back and forth. So it was almost like dog years. These were years where I was really immersed in my profession, probably had very little time to anything else. And I find that those are the years where you have the beginning of your career years is where you, if you're lucky as I was to get opportunities to build that gymnastics.

26:40Then the rest is almost collecting new experiences, working at a slightly slower pace, finding that as years go by, you learn less from what you do. And then that becomes a different challenge where you're trying to find projects that become a challenge to your capabilities. And it becomes harder and harder. And that's when it's a different story because you want to keep in love with what you do in order to do it right. But of course, at the beginning of your career, everything's a challenge. Every challenge is higher than your knowledge. And it's an opportunity for you to catch up. And I had the feeling that the first five, seven years of my career was always me facing challenges that were bigger than my capabilities.

27:22And I find that this is one of the reasons why you should probably start your career working for somebody else and make sure that that somebody else is very talented. Because it'll naturally give you the opportunity to work in challenges that are much bigger than your capabilities or your knowledge, but you can catch up quite fastly. it's quite tricky to find someone who's who's good and generous and be able to learn from because sometimes you can have people who are very bad but actually that also helps you to learn a lot more to realize that's not the way i think you should do it but you've shared with me some incredible things and when i go back to the ideas because as you said about creativity creativity is about seeing things from different perspective and not to be too tight to ideas that idea an idea could be a prequel to even a better idea.

28:12How do you instill that in a culture of people who haven't had the chance to have five or seven years of dealing with things that are much, much bigger because you have to work it out firsthand? So how do you encourage people to let go and actually see the idea as a prequel rather than the final destination? So yes, it really takes a very specific kind of person to understand this because at the beginning, or at least this is the way I saw it when I was working for somebody else, you were providing those ideas and there was always two layers, no? The first layer of judging, which is your boss or somebody who's the creative lead and you're there to help them either have ideas or make those ideas grow.

28:55If the idea comes from somebody else, you're there to make it grow. And I find that the beauty of our job is that there is a reason for pride in everything that you do. So whether your chance is to look at the leading of text to you came up with a great idea to anything in the middle there's an opportunity to see yourself and feel proud of that piece and I always encourage people in our team to feel proud to the biggest of scales this is something I learned at Pentagram I come from a Latin country and you would hear people say we've done this and we've done that I was like you haven't done this we're in Pentagram London this is something that happened somewhere in the U.S.

29:36yet the idea of feeling proud of being part of a community is one of the things that are very important, but there are also opportunities to feel proud about the little details and everything in the middle. And I think this is one of the greatest things about our job is that creativity isn't just the idea or having that great idea, but also making that idea shift slightly to the left or to the right to make it from good to brilliant or making sure that the details are at the right place so that nobody even pays any attention to it. There is pride there too. So I think pride is the most important element and you need people that feel that pride, have that patience to see that their contribution might not be this time the big idea, but there are other places where he or she is going to have an opportunity to have a contribution.

30:26I like it. Pride. Sometimes I can feel that people can be proud of the smallest things and you think, is that enough? But I want to go to the point where you said, the longer I work, the less I learn from what I do. Obviously, 25 years is a long time to be running a business in always changing times. Say, when you said for the first five to seven years, the things were far too big for you just to take them on. What does it feel like to have a 25 years of wealth and knowledge of running a business that is not always easy to run? What it is, is that you learn from other places. So it used to be that somebody would knock on our door and this was a very different project to what we'd ever done.

31:10If you look at our portfolio, it's a lot of us doing a lot of projects in very many different environments. And we, unpurposely, after doing The Observer, I could have done another three or four newspapers. But we unpurposely somehow went away from that world to learn from other types of projects, other types of clients, other types of challenges. So the challenges today aren't that much on the mechanism of design. I know for a fact that we're going to get there. It might take us longer, but we're going to get there. So I naturally use my time more on learning from other places. The great thing of working with people who are good at what they do, and if you've got good clients, it gives you an opportunity to learn from people who come from very different backgrounds to yours, who are brilliant at what they do.

32:00So every project is an opportunity to learn about them. Of course, you're not learning that much about what you are going to bring into the table, but it's a great opportunity to learn about the other person that you have in front of you. And that is the way I kept in love with this job. The words that you told me at the beginning, you said that you were always a part of a collective and you were aware of what you're good at and what you're bad at. And now that makes me think that the way you work with people, obviously you get the energy, the vibe, the information from the others, that you would never be able to do it in seclusion.