Dare to fall in love with creativity again - Rob Draper (Live at All Flows)

0:11I don't think there was a role before that was called a creative and I think now you can be a creative and that's enough. If that makes sense you don't need to say oh I specialise in illustration or I specialise in procreate or I specialise in oil painting. You can just be a creative and I think as long as there's a thread that goes through you. the challenge is always the same the challenge is actually how you make money out of these things isn't it essentially do you know i mean but if you wanted to kind of use it as a career path i think there has to be a thread that goes through you whatever that is whether you're doing a mural or whether you're doing a painting for somebody but it's completely changed

0:55welcome to the daring creativity podcast a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection it's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Raleigh Malinich. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I'm talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

1:49What happens when everything you've built disappears overnight and the thing that's left is the thing that you've always loved? Rob Draper has lived that question more than once, from painting graffiti in Worcester to art directing a fashion brand to finding himself redundant, isolated and painting messages on coffee cups that accidentally changed his life. In our conversation, Rob talks about a creative thread that connects every chapter. Graffiti, lettering, collage, workshop and an honorary degree he never saw come in. We get into why finding your voice matters more than pleasing everyone, why collage terrified him and why gratitude might be the most underrated creative tool of all.

2:26This episode was recorded live at the All Flows Festival in Milton Keynes, and if you're looking for tickets for next year edition, you should, because it was a very special event. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Rob Draper.

2:52Hey Rob, welcome to Daring Creativity Podcast. How are you doing today? I'm good, thank you. I'm good. We're recording this live at All Flows Festival in Milton Keynes. And in my opinion, one of those places that's so beautifully curated as a festival because it showcases broad range of stories and also broad range of craft. In your talk, you run through your life and your creative career, and it was a fascinating journey. For those who couldn't see your talk, tell me, who is Rob Draper? How would you introduce yourself? Who are you? I'm an artist and designer and have sometimes by design sometimes not by design found myself with a particular range of circumstances that has shaped my work and my outlook essentially in your session you mentioned that you have two dreams that you would love to achieve can you tell us which ones they are when I was young I was desperate to design a range of BMX bikes and I was also obsessed by American culture and I was desperate to design for Nike.

3:52So for someone growing up in Worcester, how did you get into BMXs and American culture? I think what happened was just American culture in mid-80s, obviously. The films came over, music, fashion came over and it was just so exciting. It didn't feel like anything else that was going on in the UK at the time. And as a result of that, it just always stuck with me that I wanted to be part of that in some way, shape or form. I was always artistic anyway, and I fell into graphic design because that made much more economical sense when I left school. And so they were always two goals of mine. It was just I wanted to do.

4:30At this stage on the show, I would normally go two steps back. Let's go to the movies that you grew up with. E.T., Star Wars, Tron, Beach Street, all these kind of era. Did you have a sensation of the feeling, seeing those movies and them having impact on you. What did it feel like? I just 100 % remember those because they were just so colourful and they were so different. And obviously, you have to look at these things in context now. And because of the internet now, you can look at anything at any point, any second across any point of the world. But back then, that was all you had in terms of these things and seeing this other world that was going on that just didn't feel like anything that I was part of.

5:08It didn't feel like there certainly wasn't anything like that in Worcester. yeah there wasn't anything like that in most places now we've got the movies covered but then bmx pipes when did you connect the dots where you could be someone actually creating that sort of style graphics or designs in the future do you know there was a pathway because a lot of people in our generation they didn't even know that graphic design was a thing you know it was kind of almost us stumbling into something we didn't know graphic design existed so what was it like for you did you see a path ahead when you were growing up as a kid no not in the slightest i happen to speak about it i've spoken about it a few times how i wanted to do that and i've just drawn and drawn and drawn and drawn and drawn and putting that online and talking about it and all of a sudden that opportunity presented itself from both a couple of different bmx companies it was never that thing of i never specifically did something to design a range of bikes or anything like that i just put out work and talked about the fact that i'd like to do that right let's keep it still in the 90s and 80s for a second because with the appeal of creativity when you say you were artistic kid do you remember was it escapism was it a sense of expression of your soul what did you feel when you were creating that identity that you had 100 escapism and i think certainly i remember starting to paint graffiti when i was 11 12 and again in my early teens it gave me adventures it gave me confidence it gave me a social life it gave me these adventures that you could never get any other way.

6:39And it was a time that when art at school wasn't particularly motivating, it wasn't particularly inspiring. And so you could do this thing and it was the most exciting thing ever. And it naturally led into graphic design. I want to learn about graffiti because once upon a time I was a scary tagger. You know, I had my little thing and I was really scared to do it, but I did it for a short while. But how was it for you? What was the introduction to the scene? Did you have mentors in graffiti? And how did you find out you can do it and how did you get into it? Well, it was a tiny scene and pretty much, if you ask most, 90 % of the people who've ever painted graffiti and certainly from that first wave in the UK, there was a book called Subway Art.

7:17And Subway Art was basically a catalogue of the New York subway being painted. And that became like this absolute Bible to everybody. And that gave us these kind of weird starting points. But in Worcester, it was slower to develop than obviously the biggest cities, but yeah. I always feel that with graffiti, there's no rule book or star guide. How did you approach graffiti? Was it a way of expression or way of artistic explorations? I never paid the same attention as I would perhaps now because it was more certainly younger as well. It was just something you did with your friends and it was adventures and all that kind of thing.

7:54It's only, I think, as you get older, you analyze it more, what you were doing there, perhaps. So let me join the dots because I think it's the beautiful naivety in our younger selves when we don't overanalyze what we do. There's just this moment of now, I want to do this. I'm going to get started and see where it takes me. In your talk, you had a slide about changing letter forms, that view and the career aspect. What's changed? But I think what's changed is context is everything now. So obviously when I was painting in those days, you couldn't possibly have a career option out of it. There was no form of career or development or anything at all like that.

8:32I work with students now who want to do murals, who want to do street art, who want to do graffiti. And now there's a thousand tutorials that explain how to do that and paint and materials and opportunities and cities have paint festivals and all those kind of things. So there's now opportunity for that. But certainly when I was young, none of that existed at all. So it was just something I did as a hobby in a pastime, almost, if that makes sense. And for my social life. But then I went down the route of graphic design. And so I parked it and it was just something I did outside of my graphic design career.

9:04I think we live in a magnificent time where you can have people dreaming now at a younger age about potentially being a mural artist and actually making a living out of it. Because when you describe it at that time, it was just a hobby, right? It was just an outlet. 100%. I mean, I talk in my talk about when I left university and was like, do I follow the career in graphic design or do I try and be an artist or anything at all like that? And it was quite defined that you were a graphic designer, you were an illustrator, you were a photographer, you were an artist. You can be all of those things at the same point.

9:32You can be absolutely all those things. As long as there's a thread that goes through you as a creative, it just doesn't matter at all. But back then, you had to be one of those things. What you describe reminds me of a sentence which is normally printed across when people say, do one thing and do it well. When you felt like you had one thing, you had to do it well, because, God forbid, you might actually rock the boat and drop outside the edges. Because I think that's where the magic lies. I think we've got more perceived freedom in being able to just be more versatile, just to pursue the passions that potentially can influence our future.

10:06A hundred percent. I don't think there was a role before that was called a creative. And I think now you can be a creative and that's enough. If that makes sense, you don't need to say, oh, I specialize in illustration or I specialize in procreate or I specialize in oil painting. You can just be a creative. And I think as long as there's a thread that goes through you, the challenge is always the same. The challenge is actually how you make money out of these things, isn't it, essentially? Do you know what I mean? But if you wanted to kind of use it as a career path, I think there has to be a thread that goes through you, whatever that is, whether you're doing a mural or whether you're doing a painting for somebody.

10:37But it's completely changed. In your session, you talked about a difference between being an artist and a designer. How would you take it from university? What did you study and when did you go on to your first paying job?

10:52Rob Draper:We'll be back after a quick break.

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11:42So I did a foundation art and design course at Art College. I then went from there to do two years of graphic design. I then went from there to do three years degree of visual communication. And so visual communication meant a bit of everything. This was mid 90s. So I was obsessed by David Carson and that type of almost where type became image. And so that was completely taken by that. ASW the Design Museum. Yeah, absolutely. When you think about it, it was a type of a ride. It was something about the 90s, which was so magnetic, right? 100 % Yeah. And it's interesting because I think it's come back around now and seeing a lot of students work now is referencing that.

12:24But for me, it applied how I felt about graffiti. I could apply to graphic design. And it was really special to me at the time. As I say, David Carson being a good example, Tomato being another one of these people who were kind of using type as image and really trying to push the boundaries of what communication was. And as a student, that was the most incredible thing. So I ended up within magazine design. as a result so after your studies did you work in retail as a designer have I got that right no the last role I found myself in was I was an art before I became freelance was I was art director of a fashion brand what did that feel like at the time because the imagery that you showcased in your talk were very of that time it felt like the creativity was liberated it felt like kind of anything goes right it was great I found it great because I was very very lucky that I had a boss who was supportive of me, a boss who was like, if you tried something and it was cool, he was like, yeah, let's go with that.

13:21And I think that can make a massive amount of difference. I think it helped. The brand itself was quite open to creativity. And so as a result of that, you could just try anything. And he would give me a lot of creative freedom to do that, which is why it felt so difficult when I got a redundant, because I felt like I'd worked and worked and worked and got my dream job. It was doing everything I needed it to do. I could jump upon to lay out stuff and be digital if I wanted to, or I could go and paint walls at a shop fitting at the other end of the country if I wanted to. So for the context of the listeners who haven't seen the talk, you mentioned the fact that the company was bought out and you were promised to be stay and put, and then you were told to move up north.

14:01So I want to know in this situation, how was the life of the creative endurance and struggle? How did you keep yourself motivated? Because as I said at the beginning, there were quite a few story arcs which went up and down. and in that moment was it that first draw to regain creativity and kind of get yourself back on your feet it's both great and it's terrible but you realize that nobody will do it but you essentially and i absolutely felt that i was too old to retrain i felt like i didn't know what else to do if that makes sense so it's like what i'm going to do is just throw i had no idea what i was going to do but i thought i'm just going to throw energy at doing things and see what happens and so So at the time, I didn't know if that was going to be, as I mentioned in my talk, I went off and did some sign writing.

14:44I was teaching as well. So I was doing all sorts of teaching from graphic design. I was working with special needs children as well. So I just thought if anything will come along, I'll just throw as much energy at it as possible and I'll see what comes from there. Do I remember rightly that you also mentioned you worked in prison? Yes, I did. So I was doing sessions. I was doing workshops in prison, again, on art and different forms of art in there. Question. How do you find yourself in prison? Do you pitch for it? Do you have a call? How do you do that? Well, no, what happened was I was senior designer for local authority in Worcestershire.

15:18And as a result of that, some of the people from Worcestershire had gone and worked in the library section of the prison. So I got a call and would I be interested in doing some sessions in prison? I had a first understanding of what it's like for people in prison when I've spoken to Alison Black from Studio Craig Black, who actually used to be a mental health nurse in prison. And I got to really understand how complex those people are, because to the outside society, you might say, oh, you're just a bad person, you did bad things. But there are so many underlying issues that take people on the edge of the fringe of the society to really work out what do they really need.

15:56And she was telling me in a very similar way to you, she says, she would be speaking to people and say do you want to draw today are you going to do something because creativity is an outlet that some of us can take for granted and we've got beautiful careers we get to do whatever we want to do whenever we want to do and sometimes we even moan about not being paid enough for it or working late and when you compare it to people in prison they've got nothing so when Alison was talking about the fact that even giving these people some time to create and have a mental health break, get them to paint, those moments became life-changing to that person.

16:33100%. I mean, you've only got to look at the statistics of people buying art materials when COVID hit globally. Creativity is just, it's a really important thing. It's something that people should nurture. It's something we've forgotten along the way as well, what it can actually do. And I think it's incredibly important. And no matter who that is, no matter who I'm working with whether it's as i say children or adults or prisoners you find that actually what happens is you become this art therapist as well you start working on these things and then people start opening up and they start telling you their stories and that's bizarre rob what did you learn about yourself working in prison sorry for still keeping you in prison but was there any sort of deep sense of realization that may have changed a lot of things there are some people in there who need creativity who absolutely need creativity to get through and I think you become aware of how important that is and how important that it's facilitated and how important it's supported it's super interesting what you said some people need creativity because creativity was in your case something that showed you the light in where your next chapter could be when you mentioned family issues you mentioned sort of things falling apart you started drawing on coffee cups and that was unknowingly beginning of something much bigger that you could never imagine.

17:49100%, yeah. What was the first thing you drew on a coffee cup? It was the one I showed in the talk, Americano, do your thing, I think. And it was really strange because, again, context is a funny thing because Instagram isn't the place it was then. Now, the work you put on Instagram is next to the funny cat falling off a roof or somebody doing a backflip on a motorbike or all these things. But back then, there was almost an area of Instagram which was just people doing letter forms and creativity and things like that and people were quite supportive and encouraging of that and certainly at the time it wasn't something I did cynically I just put it online and it got all this good feedback and again I mentioned it in my talk being a freelancer and deciding to go freelance at that time was incredibly isolating I had no idea what to do I sort of felt like a failure as well because I was kind of like my job's over and I had this career that I felt was doing everything for me and so putting something online and finding that it somehow resonated with other people was like oh that felt like it was really good I'll try doing that again and I think weirdly a lot of them are if you look back and look at those cups 90 % of them I've got some form of self-help on them and 95 % of those messages rained at me and it wasn't until it blew up it was just like I was just doing them and thinking this could be good I think I was trying to use Instagram as like a shop window so you would go and you'd see these cups on there and you go okay that's interesting who's this guy and then you click and you look at my website it was never the intention at all to be name checked on anything i just thought i was going to be a commercial letterer or commercial artist or whatever i just thought you'd look at my website and you'd employ me to do some things for you and then it blew up i'm still sort of tracing visually tracing the nexus of you being graffiti artist designer sign writer because all of these things of course culminate in what you're creating on one of these cars because i have to admire for someone who's very sort of digitally orientated as a creative i admire the skill and the craft and the patience that go into the most uneven surfaces you know the way you draw the way you create did you have an idea when you were driving on the first coffee cup that that would be a door to somewhere new no good absolutely no and if you look at the first one i did to the last when I did.

20:01There's a chasm of difference, but I think it's like playing the piano. So if you were to play the piano today, you'd probably be bad and tomorrow you'd be probably just as bad. But next week you might be a bit better and the week after you'd be a bit better and the week after. And then you get to a point where you can do a full tune. And I think it's very much like that. They started off, they were quite rough. It wasn't much to them. I just saw them as being this possibility that could generate me some work in some way, shape or form. And that would only be people looking at my website but over time I just found that by going back again and again and again and again what happens is it shifts whether you realize it or not you're naturally getting better at whatever it is you do.

20:37So there was an interesting change to your story because from an unlikely channel of media that featured your project everything changed from there onwards. Insane email yeah I think it's just all come together now it's just a different platform to what it was back then. And your mum got to discover properly about your project. She did. What did that feel like because i feel it's almost like an old school validation of the work because once upon a time we celebrated creativity because maybe there was a bit less of it there were fewer people doing it and there was more outlets to celebrate it but what was it like for you to actually finally see something that you put out there as you said basically just a set of messages what did it feel like i think what happens is when you're doing things when you feel like you're in the trenches a tiny bit like nothing's going quite right.

21:24I think you do things and you do things and you do things. And every now and again, there'll be small points of validation on whether that's something external positive happens. Somebody features your work, somebody talks about your work, you get a job opportunity, something like that happens. And I think certainly in those early days, you think, okay, that's the path out of this situation. And as a result of that, you try and do more of those things. But yeah, it definitely feels good because again, from where I was in Worcester, It's not the kind of epicenter of the universe. So as a result of that, having any form of validation, it was really important for me at the time.

21:57And I think it just puts more fuel in the tank as well, because you think, OK, I'm going to carry on doing this. This feels like it's got possibilities. At that time, as you were showcasing your successes, the features, the coverage, on Instagram, you had a lot of negative comments from people who were saying, hey, how are you going to make money from this? Well done. What are you going to do next? but when you think about those comments what have they got to do with it right it's a bit weird yeah i think what happens is it's a strange thing is that you would never go to an art gallery and you would never expect the artist to be stood next to the painting saying well i did this and this person looks sad because they've done this and i've used blue because this and everything but i think social media sort of takes away that and obviously a lot of these people wouldn't necessarily say these things to your face but at the same point in time they just want to just channel that, channel that emotion at you.

22:50And that's bizarre. I guess it's our window to the world of having it broken. And there's other people who walk the streets around us. Yeah. I mentioned it in the talk as well. I understand that you might not like my work and that's absolutely fine. I understand that you might not like collage. That's absolutely fine. I understand you might not like netting. That's absolutely fine. I just think either move along and find the thing you do. There's a million, billion accounts out there. So go and find the thing you do even better if that's not out there then just create that thing yourself it seems really strange there was one woman at one point who was really quite viciously like really quite angry towards my work and i was like whoa and came back a couple of times and i looked at the account and it was somebody from america and she knitted things and i was kind of like i don't know what to do with that it was like are you saying that i should retire and start knitting and it's that weird thing do you know what I mean but it is what it is maybe she was too zen and needed some help I don't know I have no idea but certainly at the time I was like wow well I've been publishing books for more than a decade and you can see a pattern of an Amazon unhappy shopper when they just slate everything when you read a bad review you will take it personally but then you can go and go through all the reviews they've placed and they would say oh this toothbrush is shit and this is shit and you see that negativity and you realise It's okay.

24:10It's not the product. It's mostly the person. Yeah, I think it is what it is. And that's why I mentioned it as well. I think you have to have some form of self-belief. I just do something that I try to find authentic to myself now. And then if you tell me that's whatever you feel it is, then that's fine. But I'm just trying to make something that's authentic to me. And I think that for me feels like that's the best way forward. And I think for any creative out there, if you're trying to do something that is authentic and feels real to you that you want to do, then I think that's the absolute way forward.

24:43Because I think if you try and please everyone, I think where would that go at the moment? It's almost impossible. It's tempting to want to please everyone when you start in the creative industry because when you start being creative, you want the validation, you want the love, you want the hope that you actually can do this for a very long time. But I think that moment when you realise that this is only for half of the people that you know, or maybe even 10 % or even half of that, that is the moment of realization which can be so comforting and validating and realizing I don't need to be friends with everyone.

25:15I don't need everyone to like my work. And I think if you did, I think if you made the work that absolutely universally everybody liked, it would probably be the blandest thing in the world as well. I think there is something about trying to somehow find your voice, whatever that is, however that looks, and drilling into that and being as authentic as you possibly can. Very true. So your work through painting on coffee cups got you to work on some amazing projects, including Golden Globes and other incredible work. But then the pandemic hit. So we go back from the high to the low. What I think is remarkable about your career, Rob, is that the number of pivots and regenerations and resurrections that you've created, especially for the pandemic.

25:56Let's talk about that for a second, because there was, again, the thing you found another door, and I think somewhere new. I just think everything vanished everything I was doing vanished, cancelled, got postponed and we were told we as creatives were non-essential in the UK and everything and so it was just like what do you do but I knew that I had materials now I had materials and equipment and a little studio so I'll just crack on and try and be an artist and see where that gets me. You mentioned again there was a negativity towards what you were doing back then well that moment you turn it around by a project it was called your words my hands yes so massively certainly at the time because obviously as a lettering artist if you're putting things onto social media it has to say something doesn't it as a lettering artist you have to write something and so you'd write something positive and people would be like how on earth can you be so positive like the world's falling apart blah blah blah blah so you put something on there that's quite negative and people would be like how can you be so negative you've got it so much better than other people so you're just like I know what to do so I'd worked in that particular style of this loose expressive kind of handwriting and so I thought well I'll put it on to other people so I formed the project and it was brilliant for me because it meant that I could carry on lettering I could generate money as well and also if you criticized it I didn't come up with them anyway so it's fine.

27:15We've got to get to the next arc of your story which was collage. Yes. And what really surprised me had a little a subset written saying be careful about collage yeah weirdly again i never saw it come in but it was by far the most controversial thing i'd ever done on social media people that are just absolutely like whoa i really need to have a look at your followers because they're quite a bunch but let's talk about the diagram that you had you had a to b and the paths from a to b were a million times different than just a straight line yeah i think what had happened at that point is i think however you work, you get used to a way that you work, no matter what that is, whether you're a painter, illustrator, fine artist, whatever.

27:58I think the second you change something in that, it knocks you slightly because in your head, you're fairly accomplished and you know what you're doing. And the second you change one of those elements of that, you don't quite know where you are. And that was the case definitely with me with collage. So when I started it, it was all different to me again. It was the same materials and I could still use letter in and letter forms, but everything else was completely different and so what it meant was before where I knew I could see in my head when I was starting a job I could absolutely see what the outcome with that job was going to be and all I had to do was put in the work and whether that was two hours two days two weeks I could see where that was heading and what that was going to look like but with collage because I didn't know I was deliberate I'm a very much a sort of stay in my lane thing collage has become quite popular again now but when I started doing it I didn't look at anybody else's I had no interest at all i just wanted to try my own take on it so as a result of that i didn't know if i was doing it right i didn't know if i was doing it wrong at all and i just thought i'll just play and see where it takes me and it was a really really strange time i really like those two polar opposites because you're exploring something that makes you feel alive and then you've got something else that makes you doubt it i think creativity is like any relationship you've got to constantly try and find ways to fall in love with it and i think otherwise you end up repeating the same patterns again and again and i never really wanted to do that i wanted to see where it took me and sometimes that pushes me and my work into uncomfortable areas where I'm like I don't feel as accomplished with this and or other times it tends to work but I think it's just about trying to find different directions with your work and can I ask you if everything that you've ever been doing is it escapism is it about reinvention it's always escapism absolutely and I'm very very lucky because what happens is if it's going really bad for me I'll channel that into my creativity and if it's going really really well for me I'll celebrate that by challenging it into my creativity and so what happens is you end up with this situation where if it's going bad you create if it's going good you create and I think I've been very very fortunate and I think any creatives we're incredibly fortunate to have this thing we don't realize how lucky we are to have something that you can use whether that's music whether that's sewing or whether that's even knitting but having this thing that you could have is just absolutely incredible i think having that deep sense of gratitude knowing that what you're doing is a gift most people are not that lucky most people don't even know that's possible and for us you know i'm still quite interested about the fact that you see collage as escapism because there's this sort of creative discontent like creativity and conflict not necessarily knowing where to go where again accepting the fact that creativity isn't meant to be easy it's about taking you places that become ultimately rewarding so when you start to experiment and start doing things that's pushing you in a new direction did you ever feel there would be a commercial aspect to it did you ever feel that there is something that could be potentially therapeutic of almost a form of rehabilitation did you think that the medium and the process was something bigger than you imagined at the time no not at all i just thought i'll just do this thing and it will hopefully help me along the way simply that the comments that came after you shared the work about the flintstone photoshop again where do people find you because i'm surprised because as someone who grew up with photoshop almost digital native i kind of felt that i found a backup photoshop with what i was doing and found everything i could do with it of course there's a lot more options but then i moved onto something else whereas i find what you do ultimately from my perspective so rewarding because you can feel what you're creating right having 25 different layers in photoshop is lovely because you can move them around real quick you can scale them you can do whatever you want but the tactile nature of actually collaging creating cutting pasting rearranging sitting with it giving it time that seems to me it's so much more rewarding than photoshop work yeah i think we've become obsessed with making everything as quick as possible and i think obviously it's a slow way of doing it and people seem to think it's better to make things just as quick as possible which just seems insane there's something about it having loss of innocence where we may have been conditioned by the world to tell us or convince us that if you know something tomorrow you're missing out and then you need to move but tell me about a flintstone photoshop because it's turned into something bigger you're doing workshops and more tell me about that well again i never realized that when I started it that people would want to learn it and people will want to do it so luckily some opportunities have come along the way and I'm able to go and do workshops in it it's amazing utterly bizarre what is the sense of wonder to show someone the power of collage in a room that they've not been potentially exposed to it before and now they have a power of creativity and imagination I think there's something that's really really interesting you just get at a desk and put in loads of those materials on it materials that creatives have never used before and said right go for it and see what they come up with some do some just go completely that's incredible you also worked as an educator i did yeah and you got honorary degree what did that feel like it certainly wasn't something i was expecting at all very strange when you got told it's coming you've been selecting for an honorary degree did you have that sort of end of life flashback going through all the hardships for all the chapters going how did that happen because it didn't look that way for a while at the beginning of your story that this would be actually you know part of it yeah 100 100 and i think it's really strange because you put it together and it makes a nice story but it certainly didn't feel like that and it certainly didn't feel as linear but really really weird really strange speaking about education what sort of patterns do you see in people that you can recognize your old self and some of them and go you know what you'll be okay it's gonna be okay and sometimes it seems almost suffocating they'll try to be someone really fast what is your approach to education today i think it's explaining that it's really really really simple and the simplicity is that you're on one side your dreams are on the other and there's this bit in the middle where you need to put the work in and that's the same whatever age you are and whatever you want to do whether you want to paint a mural on a wall or sell an oil painting or whatever there's a quote by picasso inspiration exists but it has to find you working and i sort of stick by that where you just by doing stuff increases the chances of something happening it's very nice way to put it so where do we find you next i feel like we've covered a lot of ground a lot of bases you know again you collage stuff whenever i see it online it amazes me that you can turn a domino's pizza box into a piece of art your imagination is incredible with that where do you see your next story happening is it something that's already brewing or is it something that you're just enjoying at the moment and thinking we'll find out i think of both really i think i'll just keep doing what i do and trying to find new ways to love it and seeing what happens along the way and that feels like that's enough i think if you make the goals too big or if you make them really really specific i think you've won the chance of being really disappointed by not getting to them so what i try to do is i just try and get engrossed in the thing and seeing where that takes me and that feels like that's enough and there's one thing about creativity that you never thought that you would have learned when you were a young person you've dropped some incredible bits of wisdom already but what have you found about yourself and creativity that you didn't know as an 11 year old graffiti artist i just mentioned that i'm fortunate to have it i think it's simply that i'm fortunate to have it seeing that the challenge is and everyone i get I talk about some of my hardships.

35:50I'm not unique. Everybody's got those things. And so to have something that I can use is really, really important to me. Rob, thank you very much for talking to me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. And I've been really happy with your words on creativity and humanity and life. To have someone like you pushing and trying to create the best possible work and finding connections and dealing with all the negativity that shouldn't really need to come with creativity, but it does. Thank you.

36:26Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions. So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinij, from 7 Million Bags Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.