Dare to find magic in straight lines - Lauren Hartstone (Sibling Rivalry)

0:09It's changed everything. It's changed everything about how I work. So yes, there's the feeling of curiosity and seeing life in a completely different way. You know, they ask me all kinds of questions that are funny and sad and weird, and I love it, and it makes me look at everything differently. So there's that. There's also just the phases of your life where I told you when I was at IAF and in that gradle even, at that moment, you work all hours, and I didn't care what I was missing. That's all I did. And I was totally happy to do it. But then you have these kids and suddenly, you know, you have to, you have personal responsibilities that you just, they demand of you.

1:09Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I'm talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that inspired lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

1:57Today I'm speaking with Lauren Hardstone, creative director and partner at Sibling Rivalry. She discovered that her real passion lies at the intersection of systematic brown thinking and emotional storytelling. In this conversation, Lauren discusses how becoming a mother fundamentally shifts her view on creativity, work and leadership, why admitting you know nothing about a sector can be your greatest creative asset, and how the best stories usually exist inside what you're trying to represent. We talked about early days of MTV, creating title sequences and creative fearlessness. We also talked about staying excited about many places her work could go that keeps her creativity alive even after decades in the industry.

2:38It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Lauren Hardstone.

2:49Hey Lauren, it's great to have you here. How are you doing today? Good, thanks for having me. You're most welcome. I'm excited to talk about storytelling, brands, people, sports, creativity. For those who may have not heard of Lauren Hardstone or Sibling Rivalry, how would you introduce yourself? Who are you? What do you do? I am a designer, I'm a creative director, and I'm a partner at Sibling Rivalry. I am also a mom of two. I know that your primary passion in life is storytelling. Where did the passion for storytelling come to your life? I don't know exactly where it came from. I've always been interested in storytelling, in art, in design.

3:32My family's pretty creative. My mother was interested in painting. She ended up going into education, but she studied art. My brother is a musician. He actually studied sociology. My dad studied sociology. They are into human behavior and culture. So it's actually not that weird that I got into design and storytelling and creativity. I can just imagine the discussions around the dinner table. They don't sound ordinary at all. That's really interesting. Where did you grow up? Connecticut. It's not interesting at all. Well, I think your parents and your brother have been made up for it to make the place a little bit more interesting.

4:11Your mom's painting, was it hobby? Was it profession? What did she do? Hobby. And she'll kill me when she hears this, right? Because she thinks she's a terrible painter. But I love that she painted and she came back to it later in life. My grandfather also painted later in life. I stole some of my mom's sketchbooks. I don't know. I love being surrounded by people who love art. And my brother actually was really good at art as well. So. Excellent. So you said your dad and your brother studied sociology. I would like to believe there were some conversations about the human nature, how we behave, how we operate.

4:49Would you say the nature of storytelling and a sort of intrigue for humans came from that time? Yeah, I think that I felt like I was going the other way because I was getting into art, which is hilarious because creative comes from insight, right? So it all came full circle. But I thought I was departing because my brother was following in my father's footsteps by going into sociology. My dad owned a market research company. They were super analytical and talked forever about all kinds of behavior. And if you talk, any conversation with my dad and my brother will last a really long time. So I thought I was going into something different.

5:30And then of course I figured out that what I was doing was actually the next step after what they were doing. And so now I actually use them all the time for help, which is hilarious. Yeah, it's interesting when you said I was thinking I was going the other way because ultimately we all go in the same way. We just find ourselves in the different parallels. So when you thought you were rebelliously going the other way, not that you said rebelliously, but feeling guilty about it. What did you study? What did you do? What was your draw into visual storytelling per se? So I started in like drawing and painting because that's what I knew.

6:10And I don't think that, certainly motion was not really that big of a thing then, but I was studying fine art. I went to MICA, Maryland Institute College of Art over a summer program when I was in high school. I loved it. And then I decided I wanted it I decided I wanted to pursue it. I think I got really into it there. And my parents were really supportive, but they did say I couldn't go to like an art school, just an art school. I had to go to a university and study art at a university so that I could also study academics and make that a big part of my education. And I, while admittedly was a little frustrated by that, I think that was the right call so i also studied english lit and i went to washington university inst louis and i studied visual communications in english that's interesting debates with parents it comes up a lot on this podcast especially for our generation when the parents are still on the lookout of if you want to do this maybe you should do it right you know this feels like maybe we're the last generation that needed an approval from our parents to do what we want to do because i I don't think our children, I think they'll just do whatever they want to do.

7:23Oh, I don't think they're going to listen to anything I say, absolutely anything. But it's funny, I was talking about that last night. I don't think they definitely will not. But at the time, I don't know. I think I was a little frustrated by it, but I do think that it was the right decision. I think that the more you work in this career, the more important it is to be able to be articulate and to present and to speak with clients of all different industries. And to be able to do that, I think to have, you know, have studied a lot of different things, I think that that was really helpful. But they were very encouraging to do something I loved.

8:04And I love what I do. And I think that that's a pretty rare thing. I'm glad you still say I love what I do. sometimes we fall out of love because things get really difficult and tricky but what i want to know as a student what were you surrounded by what was the sort of influences that kept you on track at uni and inspired i was surrounded by a lot of different things you know i had friends that were actually mostly most of my friends were not in the art school so i don't know my friends studied poli sci and spanish and english and all kinds of things so i was immersed in art in the way that i you know all kids were in that they you know we slept in studio we worked so hard but my closest friends were not in the art school and i really it actually goes back to what my parents were saying i think i really enjoyed just being around lots of different kinds of people I think so far it really feels like you are destined to do what you do now because you do stuff for so many different audiences, for so many different brands, people, clients.

9:14And it's, I would say, it's already so easy to actually join those dots of thinking, well, that makes sense. Because you get the creative types hanging out with the creative types somewhere, some to them, at some other place. and they're like i'm going to be just a creative because of my my expression of my soul but you come in from a family that there's a parent who's got market research company in my opinion that broadens the lens because it already i think prepares you for what's coming next so that's very interesting i mean at least that's how i see it so far so how did you then go from uni into into work basically because what you do now it makes perfect sense that the world of brand meets storytelling.

9:56But it was initially two different companies, one for the brand and one for storytelling that influenced your journey where you are now. What did you do after uni? The first thing I did was I went to MTV, actually. Actually, VH1 was my first internship. I was in college. And I got there through an alumni. So I was a junior in college. I went to VH1. and it was amazing. It was probably one of the best experiences of my life. I was studying in the off-air print department and VH1 was super small. It was a really exciting place to be at this time and I walked across the hall and I met the on-air team and I was like what's going on in this dark room and everyone has headphones on and I love it and they were like animating stuff and I was so excited and my college did not teach animation or anything like this so I got really into it I made some friends over there they sent me a copy of After Effects which I got to tell you I learned very mildly I've still like never really animated but but I got really interested in motion I came back to college after that internship and senior year I said okay I want to do motion and they said that's great you're going to have to be on your own in this because we don't teach it so good luck.

11:19So I started animating a little bit in Flash, which is funny now. And I just immersed myself in motion. I was obsessed with title sequences. And I was like, one day I'm going to work at Imaginary Forces. And that's what I wanted to do. So I went back to New York after I graduated. I think I was too nervous maybe to contact IF. I don't know if I did. But what I did do is I went right back to MTV. They had, I don't know, like a six month gig for me. So I went in there, did some work for them. And then I kind of quickly went over to the agency studio side. And I'm very glad I did that. I went over to a company called Stardust.

12:07I was there for a little bit. Then Loyal Casper. And then I found my way to Imaginary Forces. And I was there for five years. And that was sort of like my first moment where I was like, I am exactly where I want to be doing exactly what I want to do. And it was like real happiness.

12:28Lauren Hartstone:We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lax Coffee Co., the first creative speciality comfy company, building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lax Coffee Co. offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins, coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel at laxcoffee.co.uk. you can use the code podcast to get 15 % off your first order

13:18i mean wow it's escalated quickly yep you go on internship you get to see people doing stuff and all of a sudden like you know that you want to work for imaginary film seats i'm still wanting to find i mean again and what i normally do on this podcast i'll take you always one step back because why did you choose internship at mtv why did you choose to do this because so far it's hanging out with people who are not so creative and i'll be hanging out with people that's you know doing market research and then we've got mtv so how did you make that call to go there because it clearly i would like to believe changed what you do and showed you showed you the way right music was a huge part of my life my brother was a musician so his band used to practice in our basement.

14:05And I was just always around it. So I went to shows every weekend. I just loved, I loved music. When I was in college, I went to Central St. Martin's for a summer program. And I partially did that because I loved Britpop. Like I just wanted to be around music. So, I mean, that sounds ridiculous now that I'm saying that out loud, but yeah, I wanted to be in music. So I thought that, and it was, so it was the perfect opportunity to be working around music and doing design did you know at that time what you wanted to make because being from the same generation i guess the idea of the thing the subject you know the process was more of a draw rather than a specific piece of work that you would go oh this is amazing i want to be as good as this or i want to create that do you have anything of that type in your life did you be going like this is my target or this is my sort of destination of my own destination number one yeah i wanted to make seven who didn't okay now it begins to make sense so do you remember when you saw the title sequence for the first time how you felt yeah i was in college and i saw it and I thought it was the best thing I've ever seen.

15:23And I loved David Fincher and I loved Imaginary Forces. And I was like, that was it. That's what I wanted to be doing. And a lot of people have careers that are these like, you know, very weavy lines. And mine has not been that at all, which sometimes I find concerning because I haven't been like, oh, let me try that. And let me try that. I've been on this very kind of straight path of like, this is what I want to do and then I keep going. But I just knew that that's what I wanted. I just I was so obsessed with the idea of motion and time and sound and how they interacted and it was just not really a thing then.

16:05I mean it was obviously it was a little bit because Seven was out there but it wasn't like motion was being like taught all over the place right. And I did this title sequence when I was at school. I just was doing whatever I could to learn motion. So I did it in flash. And someone over, I guess a teacher over in the film school at my college saw it and he came over and he came and talked to me. And I don't know, it was like, I just had this great conversation with him. I didn't even know we had film at my college. And I didn't really know that I wanted to study film, if that makes sense, because it felt to me like something totally different of course now i know it's not but i don't know it was amazing and so talking with him kind of opened it up for me so yeah i really went for it i think there was something quite rebellious about flash it was like when i think about it from a creative perspective how it was used some 20 years ago it was like it was almost like do you want to see some clever shit yeah okay here's flash let's do it you know like it's just it was it was a medium of like showing how to take things to the edge and then beyond like actually what can you do with flash people totally potentially wasn't even intended for such things you could like i think it was called like shape tween or something i don't know you could morph shapes and i thought that was so cool no but when i graduated i so i was animating in flash slightly and then i was designing in quark and for some reason photoshop wasn't really a big thing taught in my school either.

17:41I designed in Quark. I mean, we learned letter pressing. It was all very like kind of traditional. And I will never forget when I graduated and I was at, I think Stardust was sort of like my first job job. And I was working with PJ Richardson, who you actually interviewed, right? And he was like, he was my mentor there, took me under his wing and taught me Photoshop. And it was awesome. And I'll never forget. I swear it was like three in the morning and he was like, oh my god what are you doing lauren he was just like just teaching me things it was great what's really amazing actually now i managed to really join the dots of like why imaginary forces because it was seven because it was that type of sequence that changed so many lives and there's still i can still see linkedin post people going yes this changed my life and having spoken to tim thompson about the actual mechanics of the production of like 26 miles of film that they put together I can't even process you know two train tickets like this is too complicated for me like how do you do 26 miles but you got there after Stardust and what did it feel like because obviously as you said your trajectory you feel like you're going linear like you go in exactly bit by bit every checkpoint everything makes sense you don't sort of go left or right and find yourself and come back on a on the main path so what was it like when you entered imaginary forces how did you get the job and what did it feel like to get there?

19:06You know what? I got there through PJ. I forgot that part. What did he do? He connected me with Michelle Doherty, who was a great mentor for me. She's a really great friend and she's also been my client. So yeah, we've carried on our relationship. But yeah, he connected me with Michelle and she connected me with someone, with Steve Fuller in the New York office. And he hired me. And it was fantastic. I mean, there have been many, I don't know, generations of imaginary forces. Like, I can't describe it. And I think anyone that's worked there has this feeling. But I feel like when I was there, it was the absolute best.

19:48It was so fantastic. We were all friends. We went out all the time. And we worked so hard, like late nights, all the weekends. And it was great. And the projects were so awesome. I mean, so many title sequences. The Pacific, Boardwalk Empire, Pink Panther, Mummy. I mean, amazing stuff. It was so fun. I loved like every minute of it. How would you describe the way of learning from some of the best people in the business? like what was that like when we now have what i call the symptom of of unresolved issues which is called the imposter syndrome but i kind of feel like 20 years ago 25 years ago there was no one talked about imposter syndrome because everyone just was too busy i'm oversimplifying obviously i'm not saying that it didn't happen to anyone but would you agree that somehow the world was less noisy and exciting and we were creating the new, as you said, about a few minutes ago, we were talking about tweening shapes in flash and that was like a point of discovery.

20:58So maybe Buddha dared to say that the world was more exciting, therefore we were less preoccupied of what might be as opposed to what should be. Absolutely. I think it was just about in that moment, I feel like. All I wanted to do was get my boards picked. all I was thinking about. I was like, get my frames in there and then get the client to pick them. And that's all I wanted, which sounds selfish and competitive when I say it out loud. But that was the goal. And I think that was what they wanted of me, too. But I learned so much. Karen Fong taught me, I don't know, everything. She taught me so much.

21:41And I loved learning from her and she had her own specific way. And I don't know, it was amazing. But I think she liked that drive, right? That's what she wanted from me. And I think sometimes I wish we could still just be that way, just make things and get excited and be in it, just break out of all the noise of everything else. That's really interesting what you said. But before we talk more about that, for those who didn't work in a specific field as you did, you said, big more boards, big more frames. What did you do? What was your role? And what was your magic on getting your boards picked?

22:19So I started there as a senior designer. And then I worked my way to an art director and then a director. I started directing live action while I was there. And basically what that meant was I was designing storyboards for a title sequence, for a commercial, for an end tag, whatever it was. and everyone there, the way it worked was everyone designed their own storyboards and we threw them into a deck and they were presented. And back then, I think it was a little bit less strategic, which is funny, but I think we were all just, I don't know. It was very creative, but yeah, everyone just designed their own way through it.

23:02And I think in some ways it was like a little less collaborative, but that wasn't like it was IF. It was like, I think it was, to be honest, a little bit of the way of that time. And also maybe a little bit specific to title sequences, right? Because you're designing step-by-step of a sequence and that can be hard to collaborate with lots of different people on in those frames, right? Yeah, it's an amazing experience. It was less strategic. I mean, looking back, it was the sign of the times. I mean, when you said, I wish we were that way a bit more now with less noise, that was the age of innocence.

23:44Like most of these things at that time, from my understanding and from my experience, were like done for the first time. And as you said, sometimes being a little bit more selfish and going for your sense of identity, for your ego, going, hey, I can potentially make a difference in this world. I can make a name for myself. it was a different because now we're working in different times and things are a lot more strategic a lot more black and white a lot more shareholder driven you're thinking oh what we gonna do and interestingly i was listening to a clip by rory sutherland and he was saying that in current advertising the reason why everything is a little bit plain is because there's a fear of actually making something that's polarizing because if you make safe campaigns people don't complain but if you make a campaign that obviously ruffles the feathers people complain and therefore it goes up the chain and people are not happy and he said for that reason you cannot ever imagine series like friends ever been made again because there's so many wrong moments in this and but there were at that time there was still elements of discovery like we were pushing the boundaries trying to find what was the right what was the wrong even though So, you know, we're talking about late 90s, early 2000s.

25:00And I would like to believe that Friends were slightly less strategic to whatever is being made today. Yeah, I think it was a little bit different then. And I'm not saying it was better because I think it's so important to be strategic. But I do think that if we could just be a little more fearless, it could go a long way. The world is changing very quickly, right? And we want to stay true. Brands want to stay true to their heritage or to their audience and their fan base, whatever it is. But they also have to stay true to the times that are changing and to the new generations. And that means that they have to change too.

25:44And that can be really uncomfortable. But it's important, right? And so I think that it's important to be a little bit fearless and to make those changes. And it doesn't have to be permanent. You know what I mean? Like there's so much fear, I think, because there's a sense of permanence with brands. But maybe it doesn't have to be permanent, right? Campaigns are ephemeral, and we all know that. And so they have more power to be more expressive or whatever. And I think brands hold back sometimes a little bit. And I wish that they didn't. I wish that brands could feel a little bit more willing to go there because they can change over time.

26:25That's true. So it's interesting that you said, I wish we were more fearless. I think from the creative perspective, would you say we'd be more contained? Because fearlessness doesn't always come from a creative team. It comes from more people who pay for it. Yeah, I think so. So you stayed at IA for five years. Yes. Why did you move? Why did you go? I got a little restless, I guess. I did a lot of title sequences and I wanted to try something new. So I went to Gretel and they are an amazing branding company. And I mean, one of the best, right? So you've gone actually from obviously storytelling, lots of title sequences into more brand focused work.

27:11Did you feel like you needed to explore this? Was there another sort of magnetic pull towards it? Or it was a change of work a little bit. It was a real change of work. And at Imaginary Forces, I had also been directing a lot of live action. So I went from directing live action campaigns and title sequences to real brand-focused work. And it was a massive change. And I think when I got there, I was excited. And then I was instantly scared. And I felt, I think, nervous for the first time. That I was like a fish out of water. And I think I needed to like step back and listen and learn. And I'm so glad that I did.

28:05I mean, I think a lot of people say this. It was like going to school a little bit there. Like I got a good education in branding. And I'm so glad that I did that because I do really fundamentally believe that branding and storytelling should be. be intertwined. And we will be so much better at one if we know the other, right? Because a great storytelling is usually better if we understand how to be systematic, because it's not going to be a 30 second spot anymore. It's just not. It's going to be a system of social content, or it's going to be 360 everywhere. And so it's going to be a system of stories.

28:49And so you have to understand the system behind it. And if it's just system, then hopefully you're creating a story that's resonating, right? So I think that it's so crucial that you understand the other. And so it's symbiotic. And I'm really glad I did that. You said two words and my ears kind of pricked up because you said listen and learn. those are two crucial things that any creative can do every day of any day any hour any minute is just to listen step back and actually take in what needs to be done what what's being discussed what's being explained what's the requirements because you know that i don't like calling this ego but it's the sense of identity like you want to have part of something you want to be validating and creative process.

29:37Therefore, you volunteer the first idea that comes to your mind, only to realize that's not going anywhere. And you said that dreadfully. It was like going to school, you were scared, and you had to listen and learn. If you remember, what was it that overwhelmed you straight away to realize that there's the other side of brand and storytelling? There is a system to branding. And listen, every company does it differently. Every company. There's a process. And certainly with different challenges and different brands, even you modify it, of course. But there are systems around it. And I had to learn that.

30:17And I think I was so confident before. And I know there was plenty of ego in creative and, you know, all I was saying about like trying to get your boards in, like all of that. I feel like I rose so fast. And then I got to Gretel and I was like, oh, my God, I don't know anything. And that was, you know, that was scary. So I had to like step back and learn the systems behind branding and learn the systems behind systems because they're quite complicated. And I was not really building systems. I remember I did this branding job at Imaginary Forces. And yes, it was a system, but it was literally based on how you felt.

31:04I shot all of these beautiful pieces of footage that were actually miniatures. I created all of these scenes that were these amazing miniatures. And it was mysterious and cinematic and beautiful. And we filmed all these vignettes. And then, yes, I threw them into these like little clips that were then used across a network. But I, in all fairness, I was not thinking about the system. I was just thinking about how it made you feel. and it was successful because it did make you feel something but i don't think i was like actually understanding the other part of it and so i think i got like i really had to learn the other side when you talk about the miniatures and when you talk about those no clips that make you feel something that kind of takes me back from my experience to the vh1 the mtv you know the random stuff like the nonsensical the things that surprise you the things like why does it exist and of course it needs to exist this makes sense even though it doesn't make any sense so it's interesting how we started talking about the world of brand and like how the systematic approach needs to add up because ultimately the not 20 years on things find themselves in a totally different application in a lot more sort of fragmented marketing where we need to basically put things in a different places in a different way but i still need to go back to the true ideas.

32:29So from Gretel, you went to sibling. And when you said the brand and storytelling need to live together, it sounds like you found your home. Yes, but you're missing two huge things that happened. I had two children in that time. I have to mention it because it's important. I had two girls and I had one of them while I was at Gretel and then I had the other one right upon leaving. And then I started at Sibling right afterwards. So I say that because they're a huge part of my life and I love what I do and I will always love what I do. But yeah, I've managed to find some balance with them and that was really hard when they were very little.

33:20But yeah, so I had these kids. And then I went over to Sibling, and I not only was trying to find this balance with my kids, but I was trying to find this balance between storytelling and branding. And for me, Sibling was really that perfect place to do it. So speaking of your daughters and parenthood, parenting teaches us things we never expected to learn. How would you say that it influenced the way you work, the way how you see the world as a parent, seeing the world from different sets of eyes? What was that change for you? It's changed everything. It's changed everything about how I work.