Dare to find your creative home - Carina Lindmeier

0:11I feel like when you force something, it's not coming. Step away, try to focus on something else. Recently, I came back to this. It's something that's popping up in my mind quite often lately. it's like everything is temporary and I feel like it's so true because every feeling is temporary so if you feel like you're not going somewhere and you're not getting close to where you want to go the feeling will go away but you just have to find your way to get where you want to so just be patient consistent try to find a new perspective and start running even if you're not ready it sounds very poetic but it's so true and you have to find your way through your own strategy so to say how to find your creativity or how to keep your juices flowing

1:15Carina Lindmeier:welcome to the daring creativity podcast the show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I'm talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

2:03Carina Lindmeier:Today I'm speaking with Karina Lindmayer, an award-winning illustrator from Austria, with a flair for creating vibrant and contemporary digital art. Our conversation explores the tension between commercial illustration work and personal artistic freedom, the importance of authentic community over social media metrics, and how creative disciplines like DJing and cycling parallel the artistic journey. Karina emphasizes staying true to core values whilst navigating the fast-paced creative industry, advocating for genuine connections. Her story demonstrates how daring creativity means choosing authenticity, finding inspiration through stepping away from the work itself.

2:45Carina Lindmeier:It's my pleasure to welcome Karina Lindmeier.

2:54Carina Lindmeier:Karina, how are you doing? I'm great. How are you? For those who may have never heard of you, would you please introduce yourself? yeah I would introduce myself as an illustrator and artist specializing in digital illustration with I mean how can I describe this because it's always funny to describe your own work because I feel like for me something is so obvious for other people it's not but I love to mix a lot of colors, shapes, textures, and combine some analog elements in a digital environment. I've got my first question straight away. You said, I'm an illustrator, I'm an artist. Why are you an illustrator and an artist?

3:42Carina Lindmeier:Are you just an artist or are you calling yourself illustrator because that's commercially acceptable in the way of attracting new work? that's a good point how can i describe it for me it's important to also consider myself as an artist because i feel like i have to create something for my own artistic freedom and career so to say with no rules no no restrictions and when it comes to illustration work most of the time it's paid I mean, we all hope to get paid at the end of the day. So sometimes I'm an illustrator, sometimes I'm an artist, sometimes I'm a DJ, sometimes I'm a designer. And in the end of the day, I'm Carina and I'm a creative person.

4:30Carina Lindmeier:We all really try to understand what is the best way to describe ourselves. I think what you describe with the artistry and being an illustrator, yes, illustrator gets a problem to solve, whereas artists can create their own problem and then solve it and see what we can do with it. We've also dropped a few other hints that you do other things than just the creative work. But we'll get to it because you're one of my first batch of guests that I'm sort of prodding with this question. When I see your output, when I see your expression, when I see your work that you put out there, I felt it was very fitting match for you to come on and talk about what you do because you're like, this is working.

5:08Carina Lindmeier:I'm doing this. So daring creativity, if I ask you that question, how do you see the answer? oh that's a good question i feel like i mean lately of course you know my work and for the people who have seen my instagram or portfolio i used to post a lot on my socials lately i stopped doing this and i feel like for me now it's time to focus more on my own artistic path so to say because the effort for me as a human being living in this very fast-paced world some things changed and also my of course I have to find my creative voice and I have to chase my artistic involvement so to say but in the end of the day I also have to stay true to my core values and for me this goes hand in hand with also creativity because my identity and my personality also shape my creativity and vice versa so yeah I mean it's a very complex topic but in the end of the day it's very simple because I don't feel good when I post something I cannot not really relate to so i'm exploring i'm letting you work out a live topic i've been trying to put a lid on what daring creativity means because it means a million different things absolutely and from for from the message so far of the theme is it's just picking up the brush that you've been avoiding so it's just doing something that you've been avoiding something that changes your career because you used to two v's you had you used the word voice and values my ears always prick up when i'm like oh people got values because it's so easy and that's generalization because some people do that some people don't it's easy to go with the flow it's easy to say hey i love this medium i love this expression someone's gonna pay me do i agree with everything they do maybe not but i want to work, therefore values are non-existent.

7:23Carina Lindmeier:Their values might be like, oh, I want to do really good work, but there might be sort of beyond that very little. You mentioned your voice and your values. How do those values shape your approach to your artistry and illustration? I feel like it's, it's a very complex topic, of course, because I feel like when you start or when I started out as an illustrator and I wanted to share my work and get, of course, nice clients, nice projects. I wanted to collaborate with a bunch of people. Of course, you tend to hop on every trend and you feel like the urge of, oh my God, I have to do this. And then I have to post that.

8:02And hopefully someone sees what I can do or what I'm capable of. But in the end, I feel like you will burn out and you will kind of burn yourself down and also your creativity because at one point you have to stop so i feel it's very important to of course you have to start running even if you're not ready but on the other hand you should not forget where you're coming from and what you want to achieve in the end

8:34Carina Lindmeier:it beautifully described the way that at the beginning you want to start running you burn yourself out because it's just learning the discovery phase is a magical one because you don't know too much about everything which is obviously for good because if you knew too much about everything you will never start and i always say like burning out is like touching the stove like you're gonna find out where the end point is and then try not to get to it too close but then it really depends on your voice on your value on your way of working or like how much you want to put into this so let's retrace it back a bit what was the first point of creativity your way of into that started you to where you are today?

9:17I grew up with a very creative mom. So my mom is also very creative and has a very artistic side. So I got massive support from home doing whatever I wanted to. So I went to graphic design school and I wanted to become a graphic designer. and after a few internships I decided nope that's not the way I want to end up sitting in front of my computer all day and like this I call it the shrimp position where you at the end of the day you feel like yeah like a potato or a shrimp because you can't move anymore so I wanted to find something that is more creative and more where I can have like my own kind of exploration and feel like more in feel like more home so to say in my artistic sense so back then it was a bit different than nowadays because the internet was not such a thing as it is now so at the end of the day I hardly had anyone like a mentor or anyone who really took my hand and showed me things so I just of course I knew a few people but in the end it was like not something I really forced to have a career as an illustrator because I had no idea what an illustrator is doing so i ended up working in an agency but in project management which is a bonus now because i have an idea about how things have to be delivered how printing works and all the stuff and also i really enjoy working in teams so this was a very nice time back then working in agency also made a few friends which is really cool and yeah it was more like the

11:26Carina Lindmeier:management project management girly so whilst you're doing this is there as you describe around that time when the internet was a thing what didn't work the way it did and we didn't have that prevalence of information did you have any sort of visual artists or illustrations or sort of visual references that made you feel alive because you said something you said three words which were brilliant you said it feels like home you can't buy that feeling you can't learn that feeling i wanted to do something that feels like home so what was your journey to feeling like home through your work what did you see what did inspire you that's a good point and a good question I mean, back then I was really like drawn to graffiti artists, street art, a lot of stencil work and traditional painting.

12:19So I think I was drawn to mostly things I saw in books and magazines or exhibitions. And I mean, of course, Internet was a thing or becoming a thing. I'm not that old, but yeah. So I'm a very visual person. So I feel like inspiration can be anywhere, like in nature, or you can find inspiration in a city stroll, or just hanging out with friends. We'll be back after a quick break.

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13:40Carina Lindmeier:where did you grow up what was your hometown that immediate inspirations because we can take it offline for a second when you were growing up on the way thinking i've got creative mom i want to be a graphic designer are you surrounded by graffiti much in austria no but i feel like it was maybe more part of this of the friends and the music i was listening to i grew up in a very small village in austria so there was nothing like really nothing there was like one post office and And one supermarket, that's it. And a lot of sheep and cows and animals. So it was very scenic and very beautiful, but there wasn't really much to do.

14:28Yeah.

14:29Carina Lindmeier:As you described, living in a small village with one post office and one supermarket, what is the influences that come in through your door, through your ears, through your eyes? Mostly listening to radio, I would say. So this was like a big part of getting in touch with new music. And yeah, friends, I would say, like hanging out with friends, getting in touch with new, I don't know, music genres and all the stuff. So and then, of course, I had to move because of graphic design school. So I moved to the city of Lins and yeah, here I am now, still living here. I like that you described that you didn't want to be a shrimp.

15:13Carina Lindmeier:You don't want to be like a potato at the end of the day. You open it up, you got into illustration, you were finding your ways. As you said, being a project manager helped you to understand how certain things should work because at least you got to actually see the other side of how work exists because sometimes you can be a very novice illustrator thinking, I am here, people commission me for who I am, therefore I'm guiding the process only to realize there's a lot of checkpoints that you need to go through to actually deliver something on track. So when you made that decision that you're going to be an illustrator, did you have a particular style of work?

15:49Carina Lindmeier:Did you go through that phase? Like lots of illustrators go in, hey, I want to work with Coca-Cola. I want to work with Nike. I'm going to work. Did you have that sort of dream list of brands that are potentially more really quite questionable? Not really. I mean, when I started drawing again, it was mostly black and white in a sketchbook. And it was totally different from the work I do now. So I really, when I finally took the leap to focus solely on my illustration career, I had to develop and explore a lot. So back then I started drawing just for fun in my sketchbook back then in my agency days.

16:32And so one of my colleagues saw what I was doing. She was like, hey, we should put this on this product. and have you thought about sharing your work online? And I was like, why not? So this was also the time when Instagram started like becoming a thing here. So I started to share my work online and then of course I got some nice feedback. Also I met people online and this was kind of this, yeah, early start of having found my community, so to say. And I'm a big fan of community.

17:08Carina Lindmeier:the word community is interesting and especially valuable in this instance because there's a lot of chat about community now or start your following and have your community whereas i would like to question the effectiveness of the community because it's nice to have followers and someone that sort of chips into your conversation or puts likes on your stuff whereas the early beginnings did really feel like community because everyone was equal everyone got those tools at the same time and therefore it was all being worked out in real time so the people that you met at that time are you still in touch with them are you because the reason why i say i'm still besties with people i met on myspace i have met a group of people on myspace and we spent about 10 years doing work together in various forms you know djs music producers designers entrepreneurs in the way early entrepreneurs and it was really interesting because that was really true because I think that was the leveler I think the leveler of everyone's in the same like oh it's my space what are you going to do with this yeah nice to see you so how was it for you at those earlier times yeah something similar you described sometimes it's really hard when it comes to talking about social media nowadays because for me it's I don't care about numbers or followers I care about connections and this is something which is really important for me i don't care about i mean you can make like a huge following but in the end it means nothing if you have nothing where you can connect with someone and when people cannot connect with what kind of story you have to tell or what kind of things you want to share or your art or illustration work so i feel like we really have to but at least that's just my opinion but i feel like we have to step back now from this heavy influencer thing also some artists are more like influencers now which is really difficult also for people to watch because at the end of the day you never know is this like a paid thing or are people already doing this for a living or what's the story behind everything it's interesting because i always believe that everything that was started for one purpose then got taken over by society at large and it's changed the usage and i think that's just a the development of us as a creative human being here's the tool this is what you use it ah can i use it for this and that i mean that shows how progress and movement and in creativity and development and quite rightly so so what instagram once upon a time used to be you know we used to post pictures of bagels and dogs and whatever and all of a sudden someone said hey maybe I should post more work and they paved the way for something else but when Instagram came up no one really thought that there would be influences that there would be anything like this but in terms of like creative humanity like are we really pushing it in the right direction yeah I feel like it's very interesting now also to just watch what will happen next because of course it's very hard for people to make a following now or to get your work seen by the right people because it's becoming more and more competitive every day so it's very hard to get the work and seen by the right people but in at the end of the day I feel like I mean I decided for myself I really stick to this and that's what I feel comfortable with I really care about true connection and not numbers and I don't care about the likes and the shares and whatever at the end of the day all that counts for me is did the right person see my art or if I sometimes I share some tips and tricks and it makes me really happy if people slide it to my dms afterwards and say hey thanks for helping me or how did you do this and can you help me with that that's i feel like that's what all our community is all about and it's not about having the best brand deal in my kind of business i do can cloud people's judgment if you are chasing brand deals it's like basically the equivalent of in the past chasing the brands that potentially can make you look like you've been accepted by or commissioned by a big brand and obviously that means that your career is some sort of validated in a certain way but you said it's quite competitive out there and it's hard to get work and i want to talk to you about this next because you get to see a lot of posts from lots of illustrators or people who've been doing the one thing over and over again and i mean that just in an observation on time this is not an opinion do you feel that people are sometimes a little bit too preoccupied with their signature style and hoping that they're more or less the artistry will keep their longevity or is there a necessity for actually diversifying adapting and finding new opportunities because there is work out there there is opportunities out there as i said earlier we've got more tools and knowledge and wells of information how to find your next the next part so to carry back to one question how important is to be stylistically ownable, have a signature style?

22:42Carina Lindmeier:And is there importance for needing to diversify? Hard question, to be honest. I feel like for me, I can answer it only for myself. Like for me, it's really important to have my style and own my style and really also develop my style. And that's what I want to get hired for. Like the things, how I translate something into my illustration work and of course there are people who have several styles and they can really like be good in different kind of styles but for me i'd say i really want to focus on my one style well looking at your work is developing it's constantly changing it's doing something of Of course you've got your ownable signature pieces, but if someone is in a position looking at your work going, oh, this is really somewhere now.

23:42Carina Lindmeier:And I'm ready starting on my own career, my creative style, how much patience, development, curiosity goes into creating something like this in this particular way, you find in your expression. So let's take me on a journey of getting lost with brushes and styles and tools and all of that stuff. Yeah, illustrating for sharing my work and getting clients or attracting clients, I, of course, tended to do what everyone else was doing, like drawing very sleek and very flat, very muted in colors. I would say mostly people or like this topics where people can easily relate and connect or I felt back then they can.

24:30But after some times I really felt, okay, that's not me. That's not it. So I was, of course, looking for the next thing which I can adopt or which I can involve. so to say and I would say the pandemic back then really helped me which is not easy to say because maybe you heard me talking about this before because this really changed like my style and also where I wanted to go as an illustrator so I found like this challenge it is all about the challenge gives you like one photo every week and you can do whatever you want in whatever style you would like it wasn't the easiest time for also not for me on a personal level but on my artistic journey I would say it was a really nice time because I had a lot of time to focus on my style on what I wanted to create and I found like this very in very nice community on Instagram the still here still life challenge to explore and then you have one week to post your artwork without any pressure and there was a big community and there it was so nice to see people having different perspectives different approaches different kind of yeah how they interpreted the still life thing and then it started to become more about food for me which was also very nice so I kind of explored like this niche which is now like my I really love drawing food and still life illustration so I tried to really focus on letting loose exploring new brushes on my iPad so without any client restrictions without any pressure of I have to post this because I don't know otherwise my Instagram will die so I found like a very secure environment within this community where I could solely focus on just exploring and trying out new things.

26:45Carina Lindmeier:I like that story. And I think there's no harm in saying pandemic was okay for me because somehow the creativity being the leveler in our industry or in our community has proven to be the right perfect escapism. You had a lot of people who were very lost, people who were not sure what to do with themselves but the creativity was that glue that sort of that conduit for us to do something with it and you know the first or last person to say they had a good pandemic i mean it was not obviously sunshine and ice cream for being a creative person but i think this is the moments where creativity really can unlock more positivity if you had a whatsapp in a pandemic like everyone's a comedian like there was memes flying like 20 a minute you're like we're doing something we're using creativity even outside just a sort of personal expression and just to make ourselves believe we're okay make us like just get through this and i'm looking at your work as you talk about this sort of the initial stuff and then like where the colors come in and i found a quote which said no risk no magic and i think that is partially like the element of daring creativity like doing the same thing over and over again cooking the same meal over and over again it's not going to exactly yield different results that's both the paraphrasing einstein's quote but i love that you had that element of creative community that made your sort of intrigue and style go into the life and food and you do food illustration just exceptionally well does your food illustration also translate into your real life are you a foodie do you do you does it go hand in hand yeah i would say yes but this reminds me of a very fun situation i had with rick ostenbrock because i met him in london recently and we had breakfast together and he was like you are a food illustrator why is your plate looking so sad come on of course it's not always about arranging my own food in a very nice way but of course it's fun to especially when i host some friends and i create some dinner parties or some social gatherings i really love to implement some colors and arrange the food in a nice way Rick is a good friend of mine and I can totally hear that comment, not from his accent.

29:18Carina Lindmeier:But you're right. I mean, not everything should be turned up to 11. So let's talk about more food illustration and still life. There's an intrigue because what does go through your mind in a way of making these extraordinary situations even more extraordinary? Something that really excites me about food, especially food illustration or food in general, is something that also goes back to me to connection and sharing something and also community, which is like having, I feel like eating in general or having a nice meal with someone is for me, it's the highest form of treating yourself. and it's a very intimate time because you nurture your body.

30:13When you have a conversation with your friend, you're exchanging ideas or even if you have dinner with a stranger, you open up and you try to connect and food is like something that is for me like the connection between different cultures, people and yeah, it brings people together and it's something that brings me joy and I want to translate the joy and the energy and the connection and community into my artistic take on food illustration, so to say.

30:48Carina Lindmeier:This is great. You say that we live in a fast-paced world, but what you're describing and what you're creating is very much that pause. It's like you're looking at, I mean, especially when you come in real life to a beautiful spread and a beautiful place, it's not time to start rushing, is it? is the style is exactly what you describe as an intimate experience you've got time to not connect with people and yet it's very much the antidote to busy and i think that there is a lot in food especially and innovative cooking that just brings those sort of emotions and feelings to us one thing i want to ask you when it comes to sort of community connections and you know exchange of ideas you're quite prolific working with adobe and again to some people that might be like impossible kind of journey or bridge to cross how did that all come about like how did you become you know a part of the i would say ambassador team or like how do you get to it because yeah i think that could be quite valid to some people to know yeah i feel i think it's important for me to mention because I feel like Adobe is always open to people.

31:58If you just want to reach out, just go for it and do it because you're always looking for exciting and keen people. So it started for me also back then during the pandemic when they reached out to me if I wanted to be a guest on Adobe Live. It was Live from the Sofa back then. So I had the opportunity to share my work, share my story and present it to a broader audience. And before I got invited to this, I also applied for something which was called the, how was it called? Where they fund you for one year to focus on your passion project. and I made it to the last round I think or the last two rounds I don't know and so I got in touch with the people from Adobe and they knew that I was into illustrations so they asked me if I would like to test their software for the iPad like the Adobe Fresco which I'm still working with and which I love and yeah that's why it all started to work out for me as well as an illustrator because I had the opportunity to share my artistic view with a broader audience I also had the opportunity to meet incredible people which also made me more secure and feeling okay I'm in the right place because also other people have the same struggles or sometimes they feel like yay I can do everything and the other day you feel like oh my god I'm invisible and nothing will happen so at the end of the day we all have the same thoughts and same creative struggles to yeah to make it through the day so this was really a nice experience and still is.

34:03Carina Lindmeier:I like that you said Adobe are always open because on the outside, it can seem like there's just a certain group of people showing up over and over again. But you've got companies that do have various people who show up for them over and over again because they've already went through those steps and they've got that sort of ninja-like, black belt ninja's kind of skill about the software. They obviously are trusted. They've been proven. and there is always space for more because when you think about it it can seem daunting to make the first contact but whenever i see posts online people go like when people say hey you know ask i'm like yeah 99 of things i ever got in life is because i asked i asked for everything and that's the best part because when you ask you are driving yourself to your next destination you actually are asking for the right opportunities because if you said in your in just this answer you said oh sometimes i feel invisible and nothing's coming well there's nothing better than actually just going and starting walking towards the thing if you make a silly analogy about bus the bus is not showing up what you're gonna do you're gonna sit still or you're gonna start walking to your destination of course you're gonna start walking and you never know how you get there so there's never been more important part about that differentiator between people who get stuff you got one like 0.1 percent of people who are so amazing that the opportunity is just following them and then there's the masses of people who go there's doors there's a door there's a door in fact let me invent a door and knock on that door and see if that door can open something for me because i believe you live in such magical times where you can do whatever you want you can actually amplify what you do and that difference between being successful and unsuccessful is potentially one door away from where you are right now so it's a law of averages absolutely you mentioned when you started working with adobe that you felt more secure how prevalent were doubts back then and are the doubts still present or do you feel more secure and more rooted i feel like it was more like a matter of because i got to meet so many people and so many different people and different creatives, like not only just illustrators, but also photographers, type designers or 3D people.

36:28So it was really nice to see that we care about the same thing, which is creativity, but we all have to face like the same things. And at the end of the day, we're all human beings and we all have to, we all have the same thoughts or kind of the same thoughts we all have the same yeah things we have to figure out in life and I feel when you start out and you want to make the first steps and then of course everything feel like feels like it takes forever or it's I will never make it so you have this self-doubt thoughts and also setbacks which are important in the end but it's always easier when you have people or you feel like you're in a safe space and in a community and when you have like people which you can ask for advice or have a quick call with or I don't know write a nice email and say hey can we chat because I don't know how to deal with this situation for example and then of course it's hard to take the first step but in the end you likely find out that the people are very nice and they are very open and they of course want to help you because you share like the same passion and it's all about passion and creativity so tell you what i mean it's such beautifully said because

37:57Carina Lindmeier:it's opening yourself up to more shared experience one of the advice i have come to conclusion recently too is that when you feel like let's say you fear certain things you're anxious you're insecure you speak to other people only to realize that you're braver than 99 of them because you create your own measure your sort of x y diagram of yeah this is experiences and this is my anxiety what's my level in between i'm trying to make point really i'm trying to paint really shit infographic in the air but it's that experience when you share your problems when you don't hold them back and you actually put it all out there i think it's so liberating because all of a sudden you create and trust in other people you create and trust in you and you don't have to remember anything this is the best part oh have i told anyone i'm scared of this i tell i tell anyone because you go with the flow you kind of go with the the feeling of creativity daring that little bit more you know what i might put myself out there and you don't necessarily feel that what's going to come back to you is going to be a good thing but when it does come back to you liberate you feel like oh i can focus on the next step which i think gives me an excellent segue into djing because we talk creatively about insecurity but i told you about my djing from my 16 to 21 and i didn't realize how freaking brave i was playing music i wanted to listen to for people who fucking hated me for most of the time when i look back i'm like how did i get away with this because with dj in that immediacy of you put a record you know exactly what's going to happen like people even love it hate it you know some people will not understand it and it's the immediate feedback so when we sit at mostly in our homes and work in our illustrations or our creative stuff you start pre-empting thinking will someone like it will someone not like it but with DJing you've got almost nowhere to hide almost literally nowhere to hide so take me to the path of you becoming a DJ what's your experiences with the public immediacy and the non-existing fears because you've got nowhere to hide absolutely there's nowhere to hide when you start playing a set all eyes are on you and I think it's the same journey goes hand in hand And with the illustration journey, it's more like a trial and error thing.

40:22So I started for fun with a friend. And we just wanted to host an evening in our favorite bar. And of course, all our friends were there. And we got some nice feedback. And of course, we had no idea how everything works. I mean, not no idea, but hardly. The set was not a very neat one. Let's call it like this. We just wanted to put in some music, have fun. And then, of course, we found out or we learned that people don't care about if there was like the perfect transition or not. They care about the energy. They care about the selection. They care about the moment. And they really wanted to enjoy like this specific moment here and now.

41:06And I feel there's definitely a connection between playing music for someone else and creating illustrations for a client or a product or an audience. So I always feel like people, or I would really consider myself very lucky because I feel like I found my creative outlet in a visual way through illustration and in a musical way with DJing, which is very nice. and sometimes we both feel when it comes to DJing we both feel like because we have a DJ duo it's not just me alone and when we don't feel like house music today then we play like something else and it's totally fine because it's all about the energy and yeah I feel like it's contagious and people seem to enjoy it so it's fun but yeah you have to be brave

42:13Carina Lindmeier:you have to be brave for sure i mean especially like when you keep it within a certain genre like at least some people will get it or some people will expect something but it wouldn't be a conversation about dj if i don't ask you about any horror stories because i've had people requesting a baywatch theme tune in the middle of a drama bass set anything you can think of has happened to pretty much anyone so i want to know with the no place to hide from crazy people do you have any horror stories oh my god i mean not horror stories but of course very fun stories we also thought about like making a podcast out of it out of all the fun stories we got to experience but i feel like when it comes to djing there's always like one guy who in the middle of the set who's trying to make some contact and then he's trying to educate us like back then in my days we were spinning like real vinyl tracks and not like the computer stuff you are doing now.

43:14And it's not the same anymore. And I was like, okay, so what's your point? Are you not enjoying the music? Or is it because of our technical music, you feel like distracted? So what's your point? And then I feel like people are, sometimes people are so weird when they just come to you to just make a comment about something, but with no point, which is for me, I don't get it. I mean, why are people doing this?

43:39Carina Lindmeier:I think you can give the benefit of the doubt that usually they wouldn't really say it unless they had a few drinks beforehand. I had all sorts of stories. I call them horror stories, but I actually had our fan stories. And I think there was somewhere online on the good old days of Twitter. There was a whole thread of people who are like famous DJs who are you thinking it only happens in the grassroots level or the local bars or whatever. No, it happens everywhere. Like literally Pete Tong, Carl Cox, all of them had those stories of. No one's immune to it. But what you said, I think quite beautifully, I think it proves the fact that the complaint is not really about what you do, it's about that person.

44:18That person's got something of a grudge or a bad experience

44:23Carina Lindmeier:or something negative going on. Or it could be even having an argument before coming out, having a few drinks, having a bit of an allergic reaction in their mind going, yeah, I'm a bit hungry now because of something completely different. But when you think about it, It also happens in the creative sphere. People say, well, I can make this. I can make that. I could have made this. They never made that. And it's, again, I think that point of reinforcing the fact that don't take anything personally. And there's so many exercises of you want to be valued. You want to have your voice. You want to be accepted for everything that you do.