Dare to make enemies and gain fans - Freddie Öst & Erik Kockrum (Snask)

0:07I think it was very early, like second year of existence, we were starting to have people thinking like, oh, they're doing stuff about us or they're young and naive and they think they can do whatever they want and blah, blah, blah. We realize that we can and we never want to please everyone. And especially what we do comes from value-based opinions that we stand for. then I think it's good that people then oppose themselves against it. If they don't agree with our values, that's what they should. And also in the same way, people will then also like what we're saying because they agree with it.

0:42And the nightmare for us would be generic in the middle and no one thinks anything about us.

0:54welcome to daring forever a podcast about being human wired for wonder capable of courage perpetually becoming it's about the waves that make us under and the strange stubborn grace with which we surface my name is radian malinich i'm an author creative and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call forever daring humans those in pursuit of an extraordinary life every week I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories value and I can only ask you how will you dare forever this podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled daring forever which is now available for pre-order out in October

1:42Today I'm speaking with Freddie and Eric from SNASC, two creatives who spent nearly 20 years building one of the most joyfully disruptive creative studios on the planet. Our conversation isn't just about design, it's about conviction, about building a brand like a rock band, about the strategic logic of making enemies, and about what happens when two creative minds refuse to adapt to a world that keeps asking them to be smaller. With titles of a doctor of disturbance and a daydreamer of the highest order, Freddie and Eric, they're exactly where they should be. And let's be honest, also the best two guests to kick off the new season.

2:16This is Daring Forever, and I present you my conversation with Eric and Freddy from SNASC.

2:27Hello, Freddy. Hello, Eric. Welcome to Daring Forever. How are you guys doing? Hello. Thank you for having us. It's been a pleasure and a long time coming. We are good. How are you? Yeah, very good for seeing you both on this very sunny morning across different countries, across different cities. But whenever I was thinking for guests for this season, which is based on the title of my new book, Daring Forever, which is about a pursuit of human creativity, of human passion, permission, gratitude, curiosity, you two came to me as one of the most fitting guests. Obviously, there's another 49 guests coming.

3:01But you two, what you guys created and what you've been doing for the last many years has been nothing remarkable because you've created an entity in sleepy Stockholm that's global, that's doing incredible work. And it feels against the grain of what you guys would normally be coming out of Sweden. So for those who may have never heard of SNASC, which I doubt there's anyone there, who's Freddy? Who's Eric? How would you introduce yourself? Let's start with you, Freddy. Oh, wow. I'm not sure. I'm a doctor of disturbance, wizard of disruption and spokesman of disobedience. Eric, I hope you've got equally good intro.

3:36Yeah, I was like, what the hell am I? I'm a daydreamer of the highest order. Otherwise I'm a direct film at SNASC. Excellent stuff. Ever got it right that you two founded SNASC a while ago. Is that right? Yeah, basically. we were running this for fucking ages now and snuski is now 19 years old so we're celebrating 20 next year so it will be a party terry to a big party oh yeah yeah it has to be a party the thing is you're losing your teenage years and you're going into both in adulthood what i normally do on a podcast i take things back to the beginning a little bit and we sprinkle some of the nostalgia across the journey to get to where we are today what was your journey into creativity to yourselves what drove you into creating snusk in the first place what was your background and why did you want to do something that's different to regular i think we had similar startings from music but slightly different i was started a club night with some friends where we were djing and booking bands and someone had to do flyers websites etc so that became me and on from there it went basically and then after that i started studying graphic design and kept doing clubs and kept booking bands and you are similar but more comes from music as well yeah no exactly i always played music a lot of in bands and things like that so that world of culture whatever if it was filmmaking or design or music or whatever was always the fun world and the world you want to be in but then the funny thing was when i got a little bit older starting to yeah like you say at the 20s there when you started to go out in life more to do it and grow up then for me it was something that was used for fun it was like impossible to have a life in that world it was like no you have to study and become something serious or the regular world but then and that's how i discovered eventually this agency world and then that was wait you can actually work with this stuff and have a job and that was how I slided into it but then funny because then I thought that needed to be very serious because you need to have your fucking role and everything and behave in that world but then that's when I met Freddie and the whole snask thing happened then I realized you know what we don't need to do that either we can just be ourselves and her fun and actually other living outlets.

6:09You mentioned music and it came to me just now like how much of a Swedish death metal I used to listen to and try to emulate with my bands. I think we can easily talk about like the mid-90s death metal scene about Entombed and Dismembered and all of that. Such a remarkable era of music that it's just created so much good stuff. Wolverine Blues is still one of the best albums ever. But what was the influence of music? Obviously, you were DJing. What music did you surround yourself with and how much influence did it have in your creativity? And I'll ask Eric the same question afterwards. I think the young people today have no clue what it means, like indie pop, indie rock.

6:46Today it's just pop or rock or whatever. But that was more like influences, everything from 70s rock to Oasis to Beatles. A lot of what we created as NASC has been created from our inspiration from rock bands from Beatles interviews when they were lying in interviews to reading biographies to being on stage for us we always wanted to speak last and then we met a lot of speakers designers and they were like oh I never want to speak last because they think that the audience is tired and but for us it's like the only thing you should aim for is to speak last. Everyone else is just pre-band. For us, it comes from music or how we brand our company.

7:34It's like building this legend about our company or brand, exactly like the Kiss that's done, Rolling Stones, every band out there, Oasis. So a lot comes from there. That's a genius thing. By the way, speaking last, I am always the guy who wants to speak first because you get it out of the way and I always felt it. It's a really good observation because you can see the ebb and flow of conferences or events that sometimes people are a bit tired. And for example, speaking last and off on Saturday, it's a bit of a graveyard shift because really people are dying. But you're right. I think that's a great influence.

8:09Like Rolling Stones will never play first. They will always play last. And that's the same for every band. So I like that. Eric, what sort of music did you have in your life that showed you the way? Well, when I grew up, it was all about the grunge. and that rock world and some stoner rock music and etc. But Entune was there and it was for us. I've seen Entune Live 2002 or something. I don't know, whatever. But it was a lot of great music here and around. But it's like Freddie said, it was a lot of world. And it doesn't matter that much about the music genre. I listened to everything as well. It could have been some whatever more experimental or jazz music or whatever that was more inspiring in one way and being creative or whatever.

8:57But it's more like the people behind it and the whole thing. How they acted in interviews or how people just being fun and creative and being a little bit rock star, arrogant too, or being proud of themselves in a funny way. I think that whole thing, the attitude of being political too. Today, we have the best voices sometimes around political things or things that are bad in the world. Or often musicians today could stand on the stages and actually say something and actually have an impact. They actually get people to think. We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Co.

9:43the first creative speciality coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lax Coffee Co. offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices and you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins, coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel at laxcoffee.co.uk You can use the code PODCAST to get 15 % off your first order.

10:26Yeah, and they used their stage to make an influence of the world. Noel Gallagher is like Jarvis Cocker or Kurt Cobain. He did so many things that was political. When he dressed up as a woman on stage, when he came in on a wheelchair, when he is in interviews and he didn't have to do that but he believed in something and I think that inspires us a lot because I think our industry is very nervous and tries to be very politically correct and very professional and not speak about their own opinions but the world is fucked up and I think the design world also needs voices. And now you have bands like Nika and Daher speaking out about Palestine and everything and there's so many other bands doing the same thing.

11:10That's the funny part is all these bands that had millions and millions love and follow and they are standing there saying it, but people are still afraid. I think what you guys said was really important is to stand up for something. Actually, you get people who will be with you and people will be against you, but at least you've got something that you can stand behind. Because as you said, really, there's a nervousness because everyone tries to keep the lights on. Everyone tries to do it in a way so it doesn't upset anyone. but then in the long term are people being true to themselves because i've spoken to people who say look i've got into the advertising world and quickly realized that i don't want to be part of this i've seen an incredible presentation by nina hasham from 14 mustaker which is a studio based in cairo really flying under the radar and they've got real edgy energy about how they want to do stuff and how they don't want to do stuff obviously is the arab region and they've got strong sort of emotions about what's going on and i think that kind of feel makes you inspired and say okay i might be standing for a lot of things but you can always do better because when everything's said and done what have you really created because i think just that sort of safe world how much we pushing ourselves because you mentioned from gallagher to jarvis cookers they've got voices and they're not scared to say what they want to say they don't have to be friends with the brand manager at Coca-Cola.

12:31That's a different story. But equally, those are the people who are being followed for the right reason, because they open their mouths and they believe in what they say. So is there an antidote? Not everyone's going to be brave because we are differently hardwired. But how would you say that standing up, speaking up, and actually have something to stand up behind is important? It's super important because, as you say, you become a person, you become a brand, you become someone who has rallies and stand up for them. yes we can work with Netta even though we don't agree with them we take their money maybe but then we use our stage or whatever we have to influence people in what we believe in it's the same way Adidas is a big sponsor they're making jackets they don't necessarily agree with what Adidas is saying but then they use their stage to say other things what they believe in I think all musicians do this but I think that it's super important to stand up for what you believe in Otherwise, who are you and what did you do in the world?

13:29If people see me and they say, oh, I hate that dude because I don't agree with his values. It doesn't touch me. I don't feel like, oh, that's bad because they don't agree with my values. But if someone don't love me and say, oh, I love the guy because they agree with his values. It's just like it happens. But if I was walking the streets and people are like, I don't like him. I don't know what he stands for. That would be horrible. And the only thing fighting this is capitalism. That's the problem. it's all about the money and then we don't say what we want because then we're afraid that maybe the money won't come we don't compete with our work unless our client really wants us to and tells us which is not happening very often and so we don't care about if we say something about someone in industry or a group of people and they get mad at us we're not afraid that oh they won't vote in Cannes for our project.

14:19But we know several other people who says, we wish we could say what you say, but we don't have a fuck-off capital because we need these assholes to vote for us in Cannes, Ryan or whatever. And we don't care about that at all. And then they ask us, how come you have this fuck-off capital? We use the money instead of entering the wars. We use it to create our own projects or other things. So I don't know, just different views. we don't get it it's great in another way we're just doing what we are doing i think it's everyone's just putting themselves always in a context and then they're like this is the structure of this world now we have to adapt and behave this way but we stopped doing that a long time ago we have a company otherwise we just do things we can invoice some people can invoice us that's great then we can do whatever we want in terms of what we say and what we do It doesn't matter.

15:13And people also think that Snask is its own brand and has its own values. And me and Eric might not agree. But that's just, no, it's created from us. What we believe in is what Snask is going to say and believe in. Comes from us. But you said what was really interesting about not putting money into submitting work for Cannes and actually making your own stuff. Because that really goes back to bands and making your own merge, making your own things. When you think about But when I think about the tribalism of the rock music of any genre, of any era, when you think about it, those were branding machines in a way.

15:51Because you never had a problem with understanding the niche because the niche was widely protected. And I'm very still talking about death metal and grindcore and stoner rock. If you did something different, you would lose your fans or whatever because they were loyal and disloyal. but when you think about like how many things they created to to get the band's message across or the artwork on anything shorts and i used to wear cannibal cobb shorts when i was 14 why but i think about it i feel bands wear brands before the brands wear brands if that makes sense because you wanted to get your stuff to your people and that was just a direct message this is the music this is what they understand this is what we believe in and this is the stuff we can give to us.

16:32So when you talk about making your own things, I think it goes into the internal philosophy of we can make stuff that speaks to the people that want to be behind us, right? Yeah, no, for sure. People might think the Beatles wasn't like this, but they were. Their name was first Silver Beetle, and then they changed it to Beatles, just Beatles. They were discussing the name a lot, and then they took fake names when they went out. So Paul McCartney was Paul Ramon, for example. And they made up these fake names when they went on tour and they lied in interviews now then ramones came got inspired by paul ramone because his fake name and they named their band the ramones and you know it just kept on going but it's been there all the time in music people have really been building brands but most of them are doing from their own values and what they believe in and i think that's that's where all the energy comes from also the funny with the merch thing or whatever that that was always the thing to the bands could control themselves the labels had every had them in the clause about most things about the record sales or the booking the promoters or whatever they had them in terms of the shows but then with the merch they could control it themselves and they could be all right how many did we sell they could put some money on the side oh yeah we sold a thousand tissues but it was like 1200 or maybe you could grab some extra money and actually some of the bands i know loads your bands that the only way they make money from the touring is through the merch because they can do it themselves while the other things barely goes around speaking of store merch i have been absolutely fascinated with what the hives are putting out there because it's like the simplicity of the design the messaging it's beautiful i'm not mega fan but it's one of those things that i appreciate the music i appreciate the merch i appreciate the graphic design that goes into it because it really speaks direct message to the people.

18:29And you guys did a couple of music videos, and some might say that you got awards for them as well. How do you handle band-like hives next to more corporate clients that potentially have different requirements? Because if I get it right, it was that you guys pride yourselves in handmade stuff. It was that you know very much about digital execution as much as about making stuff with your hands, making stuff physical. So how do you handle band-like hives the way of how SNASC gets projects done. No, but I think, first of all, it's something completely different. And you can't really compare it because when you do the corporate work, you still have to do some of the corporate process.

19:09That's just how it is. We're going to be just as professional as other companies are in that world. But when you go and do a music video, you don't have that same pressure. You can be quicker, have more fun. You can be more direct about things. You can do a lot more on a set, etc. You know, the time doesn't go as slow. You can beat it. But then I think it's in terms of that style. The first times we did, we were asked to make music videos. We were asked to, it was for the Viagra boys and others. And then it was a bit, oh, but you have the style of building things and doing. But it's just impossible with the budget, to be honest.

19:49To do, at least if you're going to do it in scale. there's always been two things with snask in terms of yes we had the whole physical approach with the but that's more visual thing about this connected to design and expression and that but we also have the other side for us has always been ideas and standing out in other ways too the best has always been when we can combine them therefore it was more about okay we won't be able to do that but let's put the effort in on creating fun small stories and ideas and lift that side of things instead. So we focus more on that than doing it. It would still breed some snask feeling of it, but not be like the visual side of it.

20:32If I could ask a question. So you mentioned, obviously, like you guys are known for this very expressive, colorful style. Obviously, there is a snask style and it carries you so far that it precedes you in the world, which is amazing. But when you mentioned, did the bands want to do something in that sort of more dreamier pastel color style and then realizing that the reality should be somewhere else. Because what I want to really know, the question is, how much of that style is an asset and how much could it be a liability to attract new clients that potentially could work with SNAS? But you know what people are like.

21:03They're like, you do that colorful stuff, but we want something different. Can you do it? Does it ever work that way? When you rebranded Bank & Olufsen, in our world, they didn't end up very colorful. We work with so many banks, financial institutions, that doesn't become Klarna, you know, doesn't become that colorfulness. And to us, we choose colors, for example, according to the project. And Eric said, sometimes we have to tune down the colors, but then we can tune up to humor. Or maybe it's more fun to put the hives in a really boring office environment and have them rock the socks out of people.

21:41That is also for us, Slasky. But I think for people out there, it's easier to see Smask style as very colorful. But we've done a lot of projects where it's not colorful. But yes, I don't think we will ever have a rebrand where a company wants to change and will dial down the boldness. I think that's what us will. Somewhere we have to turn it up. But there's always a balance. So this is interesting because you mentioned there's either a color or there's a humor. Like you said, when we dial down color, then we go to humor. but what's really interesting you said that it's always bold like you always create bold work and when you think about it it's a bit like a dj set or bands when a good set is good when it doesn't have the middle part everything's going strong all the way to the end do you ever feel that the studio has kind of dialed out to basically turned up to 11 all the time is there craving for something which is more minimal or is it a bold style the 110 percent kind of going on all the time it's snask 110 and is there ever opportunities to do something less because i know as you said you did work for bang and all the similar different stuff in banks which that is potentially slightly less intense but it's still snask right so do you ever look for something that's been more minimal or just it's snask all day long i don't think we look for something but it will arrive anyway we don't need to go searching for it's that 110 percent too for us it's one thing for you it's another thing for the client it's a third what that means it's like you mentioned the hives for them those standard the music videos to come with some idea that's more out there they might be what come on we need to push this further this is nothing and someone else would of course be this is insane we can't even be close to this why did you even show this to us.

23:29So I think it's in that way, if it's Bangalos and we can be at 10 % with them, but it's a completely different measurement than with other giants. Yeah, and then as you mentioned before, that we don't look like classic Scandinavian design studios or whatever, but if we would dress a person to go to a party and we would indeed choose a more boring navy color of the suit, we would demand it to be 110 % sartorily perfect but we would always then add you you then need to have wicks and some banter because to make him more charming then this outfit works while there's a normal classic boring minimal minimalistic swedish age it would just be satisfied if the suit set was perfect in a navy color and they wouldn't mind about the rest i think we would then want but then we need to turn up the charm, the humor of this person in order for him or her to stand out.

24:30Humor, the humor featured a few times. I want to know how transcending is humor across continents or countries or cultures? Because what's funny in one place potentially is not funny in another. How do you dial it to the right perfection if you can to make sure that it works? Is it just market specific or do you look into different variations if you do global work? because we've had clients here that they were like, okay, we want to have a global rebrand and how do we do Japan and how do we do United States? You're like, differently. Obviously, there's no real formula. But humor, obviously, is something that we all can sense and feel and it's somewhat universal.

25:07But there's still nuances in humor that can be offensive to some people. Some people might be finding it's the first thing in the world. Why do you want to talk about Germany, Reading? I'll be. Let's go. No, but I think that, for example, if you take British humor, I think it's brilliant because it almost never pushes someone down. It's more to play with them in a way. It's more playful. It can be dry, but it's always playful with a wink when it's at its best. And I think that works in many cultures because you, I don't know, it's somehow charming in a way. But also, as we said before, bands in interviews, when they're not being just arrogant, But when they're actually being charming, funny, like Freddie Mercury in his interviews, flirting with the presenter so he gets nervous.

25:55It's just like cute, funny, and sharp. And I think it transcends. We have clients all over the world. And when we go and meet them, we always entertain them and hang out with them, etc. And humor, yeah, it goes through. I think it's a bit of a lie in the made-up thing that the humor doesn't present into different cultures or worlds. I think it works more or less everywhere. People want to laugh. People want to hear funny things. But then, of course, they can be completely ignorant around. Oh, if we had westernized reference in the humor, then, of course, people might not understand it in Japan or something because they didn't grow up with that thing, whatever it is they were joking about.

26:37So, of course, in terms of the work, you need to be aware and not think that you are everything in the world, etc. But in terms of like just laughing and having fun and sometimes it's more like that people are afraid. Oh no, we don't think that we can't do that because they might be upset or we should not say this there. We heard that so many times. It's gone out anyways. It's been like a success. They're like, oh wow, this actually worked. We've also been contacted by companies from other parts of the world where things should not have worked. But they contact us because they've seen that work.

27:15And they're like, we never get this here. So we want this. So I think it's more about that we are afraid of each other. It's an actual problem. Yeah. And also, I think it's a lot about the deliverance of the humor. To deliver a good humor. You have to be good at it. You have to have timing. And we also have to know who you are and who the audience is. Often when we go up on stage, people already have a view of us. We're a bit mischievous, a bit provocative. and so we're in Seville. We say that, oh, you guys mix up Sweden and Switzerland. And then, haha, that could be a bit dramatic sometimes. And then we show, but here's your priest.

27:54And then we show each of our Ku Klux Klan. We know that they're going to think it's funny, even though it hurts them. And then we say, oh, sorry, wrong side. I think this was your priest. And there's almost no difference. And they've been hearing this joke a hundred times. People outside of Seville might think, oh, that's daring of you to do that. when we talk to people afterwards they were just like oh that's funny we heard that joke a hundred times so you have to understand the audience and also know how you deliver it if we were going up as very serious speakers which is not wrong you can be that and then you said it without laughing and then it might be wrong we have to also know who you are and how you deliver it from the audiences when you think about how stand-up comedy works some of those jokes if If we were to set it in a birthday dinner or something, or family dinner on Sunday, we'd be like, what are you on about?

28:44But it's just that setting where people can let go. They can be more relaxed and actually enjoy it, actually receptive to something new. So I think the way you guys have been doing with your work, let's say, let's use Klarna as an example. It's a work that is just, in a beautiful way, it's odd. It's so unusual. But the elements inside it, as you say, Eric, as you say, the humor is universal because it works almost everywhere. I'm referencing one of your projects where there's a person sitting on what looks like a space-like sofa from Stanley Kubrick, some sort of soft porn movie, if he ever made one.

29:16It's just the unusualness that you've got so much of a visual feast to look upon that it almost creates the setting. Obviously, it creates the perception of something's going to happen and something's going to be different. He's not looking like Brad Pitt. He looks a bit funny. And that's also an important part to make that more fun. If he was just like sexy, good-looking man, then it wouldn't be as funny of him laying there in his ugly pyjama. Yeah, or a half-painted woman, which is the most classic marketing thing that people do. You have to be a little bit different in some aspects, for sure.

29:52But Cubreo's mind is thinking about how do you get this across the line? because having run a studio that's worked digitally in 3D for the best part of two decades, the flexibility of doing stuff digitally is remarkable. You can do whatever you want anytime you want, but what you guys create is physical, and it's not just, oh, let's pop to Ikea and get a couple of things and smash them together and paint it blue or whatever. It's very bespoke. It's very unique. It's surreal. I was going to use the word psychedelic, but I'm not sure if I should take this one out. But obviously you've created the delivery of the humor so well that the attention to detail is remarkable.

30:29You stand up for something, but how do you get your clients to see the project? How do you mechanically deliver it that you can then produce all of this stuff, create these props and these sets, and then work on this? Because obviously that requires imagination on your part. It requires you selling it to the client. So let's say selling it as in convincing them that's what they want to do, and then buying into it. How does that process work? Because it could be client, it could be any other of your projects, that says expressive. but how much of a vision do you need to put into this and how much conviction do you need to show and how do you visualize it?

31:00I appreciate this is about seven questions in one. But in terms of a production, how do you get it across? Because I'm curious. The starting point is that you need the client to understand where are you today and where do you want to go? And that difference between where they are today and where they want to go is the change we have to make. And then we go into them. How do we then change it? and then we hold them by the hand through the process and they will almost understand themselves that we need to push stuff. We need to push things. And then it's all about protecting the idea. You have been doing this a lot with clients, of course.