Dare to move beyond talent - Tim Thompson

29:04So there was something really amazing about that at the time. I think the manipulative nature kind of just came from an ego base where like we actually were working with the world's greatest directors on the world's greatest films. And, you know, not everyone works with Spielberg, but we were working with him on things like Minority Report or Twister or in these films that worked on him with. And so there is a lot to it. And that ego just got in my way. And that's where like I didn't really like that person. It obviously was fun, but it was not, I wasn't going to be a great dad or a great husband if I kept that up.

29:40I would be successful professionally, but divorced or whatever. And I want to have a different legacy. So I had to ask bigger questions and kind of put my ego aside. And I think in that removing of the ego is when like religion showed up and that was really good for me. And I really, it was absolutely a game changer for me. and I kind of understood calling in a very different way. What a beautiful mature answer for that age. Obviously, I've met your family and I think you made the right choice because some people would have fallen for the ego and it was just like, no, that was the part of the job and we'll start over again.

30:15But that's a very good realization at that age going, you know, well, I can change. I'm the father of five boys. I would have been a father of two boys. We wouldn't have had five amazing boys and I have an awesome grandchild and my kids are healthy and strong. Actually, one of my sons is in the industry and doing sales for some of the production companies in our industry. So it's very sweet and it's great to be around it. But I knew that all of us were trying to achieve this and our industry is really not fair because it's very competitive. And so you have to sacrifice something. And I didn't really like that.

30:53So I thought if I could help people achieve fame, fortune, and freedom without compromise, then I'd help them do it. And that's been kind of my working model since I started Revolution Thinking is that my theory is we get in the industry for one of those reasons, fame, fortune, or freedom. And we have to be anchored in that, understand that strategically, and then live that entire career so you can have a successful career, not just business or job, but an entire career. and i would say a lot of my clients are appreciate that thank me for that even today so working with some of them for almost 20 years non-stop it's been great fame fortune and freedom i do say that industry is based on ego ambition anxiety and insecurity but fame fortune and freedom is makes it sound a little bit more ambitious because i mean it's a cocktail of emotions a cocktail of all i mean all sorts of things as you say the way you describe it the way potentially i've got it it's like it's an industry that throws you around because you never know what to expect because if you for example you know as you say you're from a sports family from denver you're on a pitch playing a football there's rules there's ways to win there's ways to lose but you can find deviation in those rules whereas in creative industry we go there mainly with our exposed souls say hey i'm gonna do this for a living there's no tracks per se i want to do it a certain way i wanted to do it because i'm here for that reason and then you find yourself not only dealing with the business dealing with your client obviously that your creativity is being sort of challenging like well this was meant to be fun possibly not so fame fortune and freedom well when i think about your book to the idea of daring i actually have a theory about this because you know what we're what we do for a living isn't actually dangerous it doesn't feel actually or i mean it it feels dangerous but it's not actually dangerous but my theory is that you know the muse that has to show up in the creative process is comes from an aha moment it's like a moment of revelation and it's not there you're often just doing something matisse process was literally start drawing until the muse shows up, right?

33:07So you're basically just looking for the muse. But when the muse shows up, you actually now know what the purpose is of the creative thing you're doing. And then the pieces fall in and you get these major spikes in their output. But that muse and that creative moment, that aha moment actually lives in the same part of your brain as fight and flight. So what I've started to realize is that the creative entrepreneur actually has a different challenge than just, you know, like say a business process, because the fight and flight mechanism, the reptile brain is actually at the core of your brainstem and it hijacks the rest of it.

33:44So it hijacks the analytical brains, the higher brains in order to kind of be there and inspired by that. And I feel like creative people are kind of, are asking for permission. Can you guard my back while I enter fight and flight stage into this very edgy, very, can you keep peace while well, I'm fighting this battle, right? And from a business point of view, I wanted to be able to say, yes, I can actually do that. So I started developing techniques and processes so that the creative person doesn't have to panic all the time and running their business. So they only have to just panic on the job and to give them peace of mind and process why they can let them enter into that state where the muse shows up more frequently.

34:26That's the goal. That's creative must win. And you have to have their back. So if you're a producer and you're the partner of a creative director, that's absolutely your job. I'll take care of the client. I'll take care of the budget. I'll take care of the hiring, the people I'll do some of the just hands-on work while you stay focused, right? That's how we say it. But I think that daring moment, the thing that you're heading in your book is really to say, Hey, you got to live in this space. You have to know who you are and you can't compromise you can't negotiate and stay out of that edgy daring space you have to step into it to be your true self and there will be reward when you do it you got another two f's fight and flight you got fame fortune freedom fight and flight and it's all f's but it's interesting because for me daring is almost it's just at first like permission granted like it's is like daring is not going to be standing on the sidelines like looking at the life that you potentially could have had you know like i see creative life as a reverse engineering i see it from the finish line going there is checkpoints i'm gonna go into some of them so i might miss some of them but i don't want to end up you know with a half full whatever life of experience is like that daring part is like between meeting the muse and non-meeting it is it's sometimes five minutes is taking us opening that door asking for that job or not like they're just doing something which is sometimes uncomfortable that void before the muse shows up challenges people and what is really interesting about the book i'm working on the basis and you've been to my workshop in barcelona is like how to be at peace with yourself so you can do the thing with clearest of minds and be ready for whatever's gonna f up let me i don't know what i have what it's gonna f up and actually be less engaging with that sort of reptile brain and thinking like i i know that i've got option to fight and fight i've got option how i can actually understand this situation because those four words i've been using in my workshop is like listen observe ask and understand it's like everything that we do creatively in creative situation in creative conflicts there's a reaction and if you dare to defend your work you're like oh i need to speak whereas let me sit back for a second i want to understand it because when we're full of adrenaline and going i am here to defend my work you know i'm white fight and then fly the word daring means so much to so many people and so many nuances that for creatives it's not jumping out of a plane it's actually being able to do that thing over and over again and be happy to show up another day.

37:15Yeah. There is something that we're all trying to kind of process in this industry, right? And I do think there's a difference between talent and creativity. I think you're right. The creative person can see the future and they must create the future. So technically in your mind or in the process, you see the future and you work from the future into the present, right? And that entire method of doing that stuff does well. A talented person, I don't believe can see that future. They're not creatively, they're not using their imagination to project it. They have a talent or a skill. So a client could say to them, can you please make this?

37:55Here's an image, copy it, or can you technically achieve something? And there's a lot of creative flow and a creative energy and creative process in it, but it really is a talent where a creative person or creativity, the one that you have to dare for, is the one that says, I'm going to dream bigger. I'm going to dream beyond the scope or the elements. Again, I'll go back to the title sequence of seven. It's not possible. It was not possible to do. Simple. It was not possible to do. We had to make up the version to do it with the current technology at hand and then put the pieces together. That's daring that's bold to make a promise i'll deliver this thing even though i have no idea how i'm going to get there but i can see it in my mind and we'll figure it out is it only that our industry is not fair because it's too competitive but isn't that every industry well i don't know i mostly only lived in this one but i can tell you there's definitely been moments where i wish it was easier because the minute I can be replaced, there's, I will be replaced.

38:59It's not loyal. I'm going to say like, there are some institutional careers you can have, government, education, that kind of stuff. Like you could tenure into it. If I was working at a university, I could tenure and never be fired. I've been doing this for, I've been 30 years. And any day, I have, you know, any day if someone else has more talented, they'll take my job. And that's why this industry kind of keeps growing. I think tech probably feels very much the same way and some engineering, you know, very much the same way. You have to really love it. That's how you stay in this game. And by the way, I don't think most people don't have careers that are 30 and 40 years.

39:38They have good 10-year careers or 20-year careers. But there's a lot of people I got started with, and I don't have any idea where they are now. They have all faded away. And there's a few of have been around as long as me and it's kind of fun we feel like there's an old guard to it so i also do feel like there's a responsibility if you can survive 30 years in this industry you have a responsibility to pay it back and give that experience to the younger generation so there's also just a requirement i call it the other peopleness there's requiring it to the other people to to make sure that they're equipped to take on what they need to i read somewhere once mid my first well about 10 years in i read a book and it said be careful how you do this because you go about 20 years to enjoy it and i'm thinking that's just a nonsense you know 20 years i can't see myself doing anything different and then i kid you not 20 years on the clock i'm like yeah what's next like where do we go next and what's really interesting i think this particular to the time and edge where we are now i feel so privileged to pivot you can we are so able to pivot and do whatever you want to do next because you're building blocks with you've taken obviously i think that's momentum of like akin to a passenger plane because you need to build up the momentum to sort of take off in the skies but then you spend less fuel and you're cruising you know what you're doing and yeah as you said some people fade away like some people just get lost and they just sort of lose the love for the industry but i think the way you beautifully describe it like people not paying it back it's just i think some of our greatest gifts because it wasn't that way for people you know for example your idea of old hollywood i'm generalizing i wasn't there i would like to believe that what we created now is more generous is more thoughtful And I think it's more about a human because this is how we're going to go and potentially make this industry go for a lot longer and make you a bit more enjoyable for people.

41:43Because as you mentioned, the technological advancements like AI showed up and what did we see? Panic, absolute blind panic. And you're thinking, we shouldn't do better than that. I think if you're, if you believe in talent and all you are basing your career on is your raw talent, then AI is a very much a scary thing. and you should be afraid because that skill that you have that you're really talented at is a skill that can be replaced and will be. If it wasn't for AI, it'd just be a younger generation with a faster filter that will take care of it for you. If you have a career based in creativity, then there's no reason to be afraid because your creative mind will always come up with something.

42:29and that ability, that's what the creative mind is doing. You just have to enter that space for the muse to show up. You have to know what that's like and you have to use that space to find the future, project that future and then achieve it. So there's nothing scary about a technological advancement with a creative mind because the creative mind is the one that's actually asking the bigger questions what to do with it. And I really love that. I actually have a theory of four stages of a creative career. The first stage is I call the artist stage. And the artist stage is simply using talent and doing skill, right?

43:06So think about just a painter painting an image by a beach. And when they charge for it, they charge for time and materials. That's simply like, that's how we enter our careers. Like, you know, I worked in a mailroom. Some people get on a box, but that's it. The next stage is the auteur stage. Auteur is when other people do the work, but you get credit for it. So think of like a Steven Spielberg film. There's hundreds of people on it, but the auteur, that auteur's image is what you're banking on. And a lot of us believe that's the entire career. Artist, auteur, own a business, in my auteur stage, exit, I'm done, right?

43:43But there's actually two more that kind of mirror that. The third stage is a curator stage. So not unlike the artist where you are promoting, but this case, a curator promotes other people. So it's not quite the auteur, it's a graduation from that, but it's the promotion of other people. And by promoting others, you also promote yourself. So think of a gallery owner. You must have artists in your gallery, but the gallery or the curator is also known for their curation. So it's a maturing of those first two stages. And the last stage is one that very few people get to. It's almost hidden because it's an unusual stage.

44:23I call it the collector stage. And the reason the collector stage is elusive and kind of confusing is collectors go to auctions, pay$80 million for a piece of art, and then hang it on the wall of a museum for free. Like nothing in the economy of being a collector makes sense. But if you're a collector, you actually know what you've been doing. You've been slowly gathering and gathering pieces that you leverage at the very end. So I like to point out the first stage is the fame stage. And the artist stage is the fame stage. The fortune stage is the auteur stage. The freedom stage is the curator stage.

45:01And the last stage, I haven't found an F word for it yet at Radom. So I like to say it's influence. Emphasize the F in influence, but it's actually what we've been doing our whole career. That's how I've lasted for as many years as I have, as I'm working at promoting other people, building people up, and then finding opportunities to influence, to create growth, to find a platform for other people and so on. So there is a longevity, but you have to understand all four stages. Otherwise, the 10-year mark or the 15-year mark, 20-year mark, man, curator stage never comes. You're done at 20 years because you didn't do anything more than artist, auteur.

45:39You better received a lot of money it's beautifully said we have similar ways of looking at these stages i only worked out three stages because i thought like the third stage is very much a generous stage for like the one that looks out for the others because the initial one is selfish the second one is a little bit more aware but the last one is generous and open and excited about actually what is out there because you let go of the shackles of really your ego and your expectations I think because you've got some more resilience going, I can see anything in anywhere and I'm actually happy for things not to work out properly.

46:12Your fourth stage, going all the way to collector. It's really giving it all away at the very end, right? That is absolutely just, I'm done, give it away. And then you grow because you give it away. So with the way that you do it, how often do you see people that you can almost spot their potential to go all four stages? And how often do you see people that you need to almost spell it out to them because they've got the talent, but their creativity or their personality or their generosity might need tweaking. So to be there, because sometimes you can't make people be who they don't want to be.

46:43But what you're describing here, I think it's a beautiful sort of way of life. Yeah, it's a good question. To be honest, it's even goes beyond like not living up to potential. Some people absolutely sabotage their own ability of doing it. There's like a fear of not knowing what's possible and they hoard back all the good stuff. They don't build up other people. They think it's all about them and they just pile, you know, a bunch of influence just to make themselves famous. And the fame stage just doesn't, they never go beyond that thing. Or they might go into a fortune stage and just build up the fortune.

47:21And I definitely worked with some people and they almost come across as bullies. Like they're just pushing and pushing and pushing. But not for anybody's good. They're just pushing in order to gain more money or whatever, just the next win. And they kind of want to take you down. And there's definitely a competition out there and some business owners like that. It's the tipping point or the other people-ness that actually comes with maturity, right? So when I see, for example, there's a conference or not a conference, but an event that happens twice a year is called Assembly. and assembly was brought together of business owners that are financing basically a party, a networking party.

47:59So they get personal benefit because they network, but they're actually asking their competitors to pitch in and bring their clients. So they're introducing current clients to their competitors and creating this big networking event for it. Why? For the greater good. I think like that's a tipping point that took an industry to mature to get, you know, 10 or 12 or 15 studios willing to do that. 15 years ago, when I started RevThink, nobody wanted anything to do with their competitors. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't even let me, I was under strict NDAs to not tell people who I was working with because they were afraid that I would, you know, trade secrets or that people would find out something about them because I was working with RevThink.

48:44Today, we have Rev community that has 700 business owners sitting on a platform, talking to each other in discussion, open things up. They participate on our weekly briefings, live on video. They're sharing information with their competitors or in one of our small groups, going deep with what could possibly a competitor, if not a competitor, at least just another business owner and having to share the hardships they're dealing with and issues. So I see there's way more openness now, absolutely, than there was when I started Rift think actually very proud of this openness and the possibility of getting to that third and fourth stage of a creative career because other people-ness is a requirement you have to be able to give it away and you have to be generous and find a way of giving it away and openness to that so i really love that that's playing itself out in our industry more and more the more looking to your four steps of a creative career the more it makes sense because you talked about people sabotaging their careers by holding on to the good stuff and that's the fame that's the fame stage which is like oh that makes sense then with the fortune people like there's again some other issues not just somebody wants to be extremely rich because it's fun it's like some people just have no you're that emotional void but just they just keep going until the wheels come off but that needs other help but when you talk about the people in the community and the hardships how much curiosity do you instill in the conversation to actually learn from one another like do is there that sort of natural floods of empathy and curiosity and compassion go into this like thinking how can i solve your problem so mine seems a bit smaller did you see that sort of open up because that again like what you described for example 20 years ago when i got into the industry like compassion and emotional intelligence wasn't really we went near to what be by doing well i mean so think back of my journey right i went from a dreamer basically to somewhat egocentric successful but egocentric to a minister so like serve a server serving our industry and that serving begins the revolution thinking moment in my life and now to get to a point where not like do i serve but like i actually have a platform or ability to pay it back more and And we met there because I was helping, Marco was a former rev thinker.

51:14I helped those guys early on. And then there's platforms being built more and more around our industry. So I want to, as soon as I see that, I want to support that, be part of it any way I can. That's why I went to off. That's why I'll go to digital design days, just to contribute whatever I can and encouraging these platforms to stay around. So it's happening around me and I just want to be part of it anyway. way. But the ability, I think, to grow beyond your own, like just physical ability, you have to get out of the ego mind. You have to. That's a scarcity mentality. It's really like, it's sabotages.

51:49If you think there's only a finite amount, then your creative mind is at work. You're limiting it. To go to an abundance mentality, creativity absolutely is abundant. There's no stopping your creative mind from working. Just allow it to take place and give it permission to do its job. And that's why I think going back to the original cure of like permission granted has got to be, why are we holding back? What are we actually afraid of? Let's let our creative mind go to work and see what's possible. And I think this evolution we're about ready to see with a technological advancement is yet another moment where we're going to have to think differently about what's coming at us.

52:30how we're going to process that. And that's totally curiosity. I almost feel like my job is to be the first follower, to be the most curious, to be the number one fan of this industry, to give people like a momentum to think differently, or as I like to say, rev think things differently to go after those new changes, those new evolutions that are going to take place. So my theory is there's revelation, then there's revolution, and then there's evolution, right? And we have to give permission for revelation. Revolution is this time of change. As I talked about, revolution thinking is about that.

53:11And then evolution, it becomes the new normal. And that's always processing. That curiosity is the revelation stage. It's just wondering and looking and having that aha moment. Oh, that's how it works. now I'll go change the world to match that now that is the new world it's what has evolved from it I wanted to ask you what excites you when you see the industry but you just answered it like the number one fan I can enable you like the conduit in between the both sides it's something that is so valuable and it's just so interesting how much benefit it's had and how much influence it's had on people creating that space where we can share we have learned so much more about one another about how we do the processes maybe sometimes to the detriment of the originality because we get so much more people being very good at the top end level where the creative ideas and originality really sparks like offshoot of real sort of creative revolution because we go good like i mean we i think by democratization of the information is really good therefore like It's how you do business and who you create it with.

54:18It makes all the difference. And I think being able to be there and being able to be there for the others, it makes that difference because you never know if you might win a client just because you were more compassionate. You listen to them. You listen to their problems. Yeah, Radham, I think you're hitting it spot on. The opportunities that we have as creative leaders, though immature in the industry, encouraging others, it's not only just a necessity for your personal survival. It helps things grow and helps build something that's really important. I, you know, if it's not obvious, I'm a big fan of this industry.

54:55I'm a fan of the people that sacrifice the time and effort and the risk to start a business, to encourage others, to create more opportunities for their clients, create opportunities for their employees. I think it's a very hard job, and I think it needs support. And I feel very blessed, honestly very blessed, to love what I do for a living, love the people I do it for, and have a new challenge every day I get to take on. So I'm most grateful for Rev community and the people that believe in me and trust me. I think that's hard earned, but really appreciated that there are people that want to be part of a community, love to share things, trust that I'll guide and protect them and their stuff as we do that.

55:38And I want that movement to carry on way beyond my own ability any way we can. So again, I think that when you and I met, we realized, man, we have a lot in common because we have this common goal that it's more important. And things out there are greater than just the two of us. And it's more important to give it away than to hold it back. So I love your books. I love the way you're sharing. I love your workshops. And I'm grateful to be your friend now, just a collaborator with you and doing this stuff together. It's been really awesome. Thank you. well Tim I can only thank you for this wonderful conversation for all the conversations we've had prior to this conversation and for all the future conversations we'll have because I'm not always nearly speechless towards the end of this recordings because there's so much I'm taking from this there's so much that people are taking from your community that they're taking from your wisdom from your knowledge from your guidance and when you said I'm a number one fan you don't have to say it because when people meet you they'll feel it they know it and that is irreplaceable.

56:42That's not fake famous. That's nothing like that. It's just like, this is a true dedication to this industry and I think we are lucky to have you. So thank you very much. Thank you, Efren. Appreciate you.

57:01Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions. so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels this episode was produced and presented by me Radim Malinage the audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode

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