Dare to outgrow the niche that made you - Nada Hesham (Live at All Flows)

0:09I wasn't good at drawing classes and things that are liberal or tree-leaning and I found that safety net in typography because there was a logic to it that I can follow. There was method to it. And if you work hard enough, you get it. If you study enough, you get it. It doesn't really require this spark or inspiration or talent that you possess and nobody else does. And to this day, I still believe I'm not the most talented or traditionally creative person, but I get very obsessed about things and I get very logical and I have method to how I do things and I'm very serious about my research and how I approach projects.

0:50and I think there is similarity in that and in typography because again there you're not waiting for I fell asleep and I dreamt about this and the inspiration came from that lucid dream of sorts

1:08welcome to the daring creativity podcast a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection it's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I'm talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

1:54We live in cities that shape us, be it loudly or quietly, but always making mark on us. My guest today lives and works in Cairo, Egypt, a city that overwhelms, argues, but dares you to love it regardless, providing a perfect mix of tension for her best work. Nada Husham is the founder and chief creative officer of Forti Mustakel, an independent studio based in Cairo, building some of the most culturally rooted, visually fearless work coming out of the Arab world today. Nada's story is one of method over myth, rebellion over expectations, and a studio that grows by going deeper, not wider. This episode was recorded at All Flows, a festival just outside London gathering and extraordinary creative minds.

2:38If this conversation moves you and you get a taste for what they do, You can get a ticket for next year's edition right now. It's my pleasure to share with you my episode with Nada Hasham.

2:52So, welcome to Daring Creativity Podcast, live at All Flows Festival. Welcome. Hi. It was very good to see your talk yesterday, which I think the guys who do the festival here, I think they are incredible in getting the curation of the festival to be multicolour, multinational, multiversional there. And your presentation yesterday was incredible. Thank you so much. It means a lot. Thank you. For those who may have not seen your talk, because this is for the listeners elsewhere, who are you? What do you do? How would you introduce yourself? So my name is Nada Hashem. I'm from Cairo, Egypt. And I'm the founder and chief creative officer of an independent design studio called Forti Mustapil.

3:35And it's based and founded in Cairo as well. Fantastic. Your presentation showed quite a bit about Cairo's mixed visual essence, right? Again, how would you describe Cairo? Because in one of your photos, you had a mixture of everything. Like, what does it feel like to live in Cairo? And what does it feel like to get these influences that, for example, for people here might not even think that's what's happening? I think living in Cairo is just a continuous love-hate relationship. The city is super intense and there's something happening in every corner, basically. That's the way I would describe Cairo.

4:09And like any big city, and maybe specifically Cairo, you get used to the chaos and you develop a love for it, but also while complaining. So it's an intense city. It's quite visually fertile. So there's a lot happening if you pay attention or if you don't, because it really does scream at you with all the visuals and all the buildings, the clutter. It's quite intense. And I think any city in this side of the world, You grow up and you have almost like this critical eye towards it where you're like, this is too messy, this is maybe dirty. And then you grow into it and you grow up and you change perspective.

4:47And actually it started happening actually when I started traveling. So I got this out of my system where I'm like, I've seen the cleaner, more grid-based cities. And then I'm falling in love again with Cairo and the intensity that it develops in you as a person, on a personal level and in your work. It's really interesting because what I wanted to know, obviously, is the detail about love-hate, but you're giving me both already. Like, when you talk about travel, what is the travel, as you said, a bit more clean and grid-based cities? What does it make you feel? Like, what do you take away from Cairo to different places?

5:17And do you compare? Do you feel like those are some sort of references to one another? I think, again, it's a natural curve. Whenever I was placed in out of context, I would tame myself on a personal level, not even my work. You probably develop your personality and your work becomes a reflection of that. So I would either try to dress to fit in or speak maybe quieter because in the U-Bahn, it's a hush-hush situation. And you start clipping parts of who you are and the intensity and the hand movement and all of that. And as a reflection of that, your work is also the byproduct of that tamed as well.

5:54And then I think there was a flip moment that happened gradually. I don't recall a moment where I'm like, I'm going to embrace myself and my identity right now. But it happened gradually where I was like, this is really nice. These cities and these cultures has a lot of things that I can learn from. But I feel like it's my duty to also look internally and look at the city I grew in and exercise that creative juice or endeavours or whatever you want to call them in a way that resonates with me. It's interesting you say it's your duty. I like the word. You feel like you're obliged to need to do it.

6:33I've got the habit on my show to always ask people their origin story. Like, how did they get into creativity? So how did you become aware of the creativity? Do you have that feeling, do you remember the memory of the first time when you realized that you can be creative? And how did you exercise it? I think I have the most boring arc of becoming a creative. I come from a family that is all doctors and engineers. And I just wanted to go against that. Looking back, I don't think I was entirely interested in the creativity more than it is. What is the opposite of my family? Because I was quite a rebellious kid or whatever that means.

7:08And then I was like, interior design sounds like a good idea. I like furniture design. And I went full on thinking I will be a furniture designer or an interior designer. And then when I got to uni, I discovered graphic design. I remember typography class specifically with a professor called Omer who introduced me to the typeface design. I remember that I wasn't a good painter or like I didn't draw well. So I found a safety net in typography because I didn't need to be skilled at drawing. And it was beautiful. And I majored in graphic design. And I think right now to me, it's just that it was an entry to creative disciplines.

7:47and the more I grow as a practitioner, the more I'm loose about these definitions that I'm like, I can explore different disciplines much more loosely now. I like that. But on your rebellious path, when you said interior design or furniture could be potentially the path, obviously on the path of rebellion, did you get visually stimulated? Did you get visually guided to something like this? Or was it more like, okay, instead of being a doctor, I'm going to choose that? How did you make that decision? I initially wanted to be a drummer. That was the intention of me being a rebellious kid. But no, I think actually my mom had a good sense in like furnishing and interior design and I picked up that.

8:24And I honestly think it was just an intro to creative disciplines. Maybe when I grow up, I want to be an interior designer after all. But it was just an intro into something that is not becoming what my family is in that sense. but it translated into, or like I found myself in it in a way that is an intense, vocal, outspoken kid. And I think there is a connection between you growing up being that kid and the creative industries. And just interior design happened to be there and then it developed into something completely different. I'm going to take you one step back. All I know about you wanted to be a drummer.

9:02What music did you grow up with? What gave you the idea that you can be the next drummer? Who was your idol's music? I think I was just an angry teenager. I liked Adam Lambert. I thought he's cool and I wanted to be a drummer and I wanted to drive a motorcycle. I do now drive motorcycles. Again, I think every creative kid has that side to them. It doesn't need to translate in that punk way of doing things or like, I'm going to rebel, I'm going to ride a motorcycle. But you always know early on that you, like the black sheep kind of situation and then you pick up your arsenal so mine was drumming and also my family was a conservative muslim family and is a muslim family to this day and to them that was so out of norm and so out of culture and it's not what a well-behaved the muslim woman would do so again maybe in different contexts if my entire family rode motorcycle that wouldn't have been so rebellious and then i would have done something else you mentioned what angry and then you said when the typography was a safe space was the anger based in the fact that there's limitations in the place the faith the future the expectations where did the anger come from sorry to ask but i need to i think the anger came from just a feeling of not fitting in within my family looking back now we get along like never before because you You get the anger out in other different channels and you become an adult and you do that drumming and you feel like, oh, that wasn't such a big of a deal.

10:37But back then, I always knew there's something that's different about the way I perceive the world, the way I would critique things excessively. You'd be in a family gathering and then you have the uncle that would say something problematic. And then I would be the kid who's like outspoken about that. And I was like, this is homophobic. This is I don't know what. It's just, again, you were finding an arsenal to express your I'm not like you guys through these things that now seem trivial and stupid. But like back then, they were just methods and trials to get your personality out there. Well, from what I'm listening, sounds like a perfect maker, not creative director from a young age.

11:15So let's fast forward to the typography class where you find sort of safe haven. What did it feel like? Because typography is obviously quite technical subject. like I as a former graphic designer I mean I used to be in love with typography with everything but I was always finding the word typographers or font designers being very stern because they are quite clinical and the precision matters and if you say something wrong about it this is a terminal you're like no that's not a terminal that's something else okay I feel like quite intimidating and I've spoken to lots of people like Gemma O 'Brien and Eleni Bevarato who work with typography and they're like there is definitely that sort of element of get it right or don't do it at all what was it like for you when you found that world as a first step towards what you're doing today?

11:57I think I saw it the other way around because like I said I wasn't good at growing classes and things that are liberal or tree leaning and I found that safety net in typography because there was a logic to it that I can follow there was method to it and if you work hard enough you get it if you study enough you get it it doesn't really require this spark or inspiration or talent that you possess and nobody else does. And to this day, I still believe I'm not the most talented or traditionally creative person, but I get very obsessed about things and I get very logical and I have method to how I do things and I'm very serious about my research and how I approach projects.

12:40And I think there is similarity in that and in typography because again, you're not waiting for, I fell asleep and I dreamt about this and the inspiration came from that lucid dream of sorts. So it gave me something to start my creative process without feeling the pressure to be traditionally talented or creative like the guys or the girls in the drawing classes. That's really interesting because obviously what you do now with your studio I think is incredibly creative and there's a talent through and through. And your studio, Faulty Mustakel, has been going for five years. How do we go between the five years ago, which is 2021, So the typography class, what happened in between and before you started your studio?

13:23So I graduated uni. I worked for a couple of advertising agencies and branding agencies. It wasn't really for me. I didn't want to brand for big corporates. I don't, now that I look back, I was again angry at these agencies. I now have a bit more empathy because you have to do what you have to do to survive at the end of the day. But back then I was like, I don't want to design for real estate companies, that sort of thing. I want to do something that's a bit more impactful. And then I went ahead and I worked with Rise Up. It's a company that does one big event for entrepreneurs. I was the graphic designer and spatial designer then.

14:06It was quite nice. I don't have anything negative to say about that. But then I started freelancing and I think I was just talking to that to another person about this. It was a good idea to just have a full time job without leaving that safety net of sorts and having a regular paycheck. And then I started freelancing on the side, things that are a bit more with a cultural sector, things that are more art leaning. And then I would still get my paycheck from the company I was with. when that practice and when that like freelance career started kicking off I could develop a client base that is reliable enough to leave my full-time job and then it just grew organically from there there were too many clients and I had to hire someone to help me Hussain came into equation in that point in time and then it started growing from there and just felt unfair to produce work under my name while there were other people working with me hence the name and hence the studio and also because you usually land bigger clients if you have a name and a studio.

15:06Before we really zoom in on your studio, I want to know what's the influence of design and creativity? How did you start forming your own identity as a creative? And was it something that you can source from local or regional sources? Or did you see stuff happening around the world and choosing the bits that seem the most applicable to you? I think it's a mix of everything. Again, when I travel, whatever kind of inspiration I collect becomes part of how I see the world. It does not really work one-on-one as much as it is like you become a more well-rounded person altogether. And I think for a creative director, the more you feed your visual library, the better.

15:46And again, back to like methodology and having a way of approaching projects. I think the research phase and our references is the part where the region influence really shines. So we're very, very specific about the things we look at while doing our research and while we're building our mood boards and our stories behind the brands we work with. And we're intentional about them as much as we can. We look at, again, like manuscripts, big cultural moments in the region, even things that are like very specific to the region, like oral storytelling is something that is huge on the region. We don't really archive the way the West archives.

16:27It doesn't need to. It's not that it needs or doesn't, but like the approach to storytelling is completely different. It's like you have this idea of anana, which means from that person to that person, the story has been told. and to follow these kind of ways of telling the story is something that I also perceive as decolonial. It's essence because it's not that the final visual is decolonial. Like I cannot look at a final product and be like, this is like purified from all colonial influences. It would be stupid to say that. But what we try to do is that we look at our process and we try as much as we can to look into the things we also look at as part of our research and references.

17:09When you approach a new project, where do you start looking first and where do you go from there?

17:18Nada Hesham:We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lax Coffee Co., the first creative speciality coffee company, building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co. offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins, coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel at luxcoffee.co.uk. You can use the code podcast to get 15 % off your first order.

18:08it really depends on the client that we're working with and the usually we have very extensive briefing sessions like i think i've mentioned in the talk yesterday i take these very very seriously and like knowing and understanding our client on almost like a personal base and like we have a joke that i'm the best at treating clients like so you understand the subtext behind what they're trying to deliver, you know, how a cat like goes with a thread. So you try to really get to the end of that thread because sometimes the clients would say things that are a bit more generic, like we want something that is modern and clean.

18:47What does that really mean to them as well? Because our versions of the same words are very, very different. And then I think the way we approach our research is based on these kind of intents and insights that we have from the clients. So we take threads and we start again researching from them and because of the nature of the work that we do we don't only work locally we work regionally which means we get exposed to cities that we are not part of we have never maybe visited so really reaching out to people our network our friends from there and validating that what we're looking at makes sense because it can very likely be a stereotype or a cliche of sorts it's something that has been discussed extensively and it's not as fresh anymore so again i think just basic research that is committed to the insight that you get from the client will probably open threads and if you're again obsessive enough about them you'll reach something interesting so you mentioned your freelance career has grown from you being just you and you hired other people and decided to give it a studio moniker what did it feel like because i think the situation that when you have too much work and you realize you need people to help you did you let go easily or did you let go or did you struggle with it how did it go at first in my head i don't micromanage but that's in my head we need to ask the team about this again the team is an incredible force i didn't even have the struggle of teaching the team to be as good as they are i was very very lucky and very specific about the people i hire so it wasn't more of letting go as it is finding the right pace and rhythm with every person and every team member because they're quite different some team members are really happy if we're like switching laptops and dropping files and this back and forth some other team members are much more happy if they're a bit of a solo dancer and then they come back and then we have a discussion and then they need their space so letting go in a sense that I would let go of my methods of working and really introduce myself to how another creative would work I would approach this exercise and obviously there's a certain quality that we need to deliver there is a timeline we need to commit to so these are the things I keep track of but I try as much as I can to have this malleable and flexible bone in me to let go to someone else's method.

21:20How did you find a transition when, obviously, you said you need to let go, and you beautifully said that you've got a solo dancer, beautiful words, and then you've got people who are more flexible. So these require different ways of managing, and obviously every designer got this fear of actually growing and managing people, and I've asked some incredible names on the podcast. So how did it go when you had to step in the leadership role? And everyone said, badly. So from the point of human, caring, compassionate, empathetic, how would you attend to these different personalities to solo a dancer or the flexible one?

21:54I think maybe I'm a specific case where going back to not perceiving myself as a naturally talented artist or whatever that means, I actually specifically enjoy working with other people and finding the genius in them, not necessarily in myself. So I don't think I'm the best illustrator in the studio nor the best storyteller, but I know the best storyteller and I know the best illustrator in my team and I know how to make the best storyteller and the best illustrator work together well. So orchestrating this entire thing into a beautiful symphony, as cliche as it sounds, is the thing that brings me joy more than it is doing things by hand.

22:38So I think it's a skill. I think that on its own is a skill that I claim to be good at. And I don't think, I don't know if this answers your question. It fully answers my question because I was thinking of the word of conductor and you said, no, it's like putting together an orchestra. So it makes full sense because I think it's quite rare to find an easy transition to be employed by an ad agency to be a freelance and then actually go, I want to put those best people together. As you said, finding the best storyteller and best illustrator, or how to work together because you get the best out of each one of them.

23:12So I think to reach that point fairly early in your career in your studio is remarkable because it's a hard thing to do. Sometimes I think that sort of imperfection and fears and vulnerability make us feel like, okay, I need to make lots of creative decisions well. I need to have my nose in it because I don't want this project to go badly because it's my name, it's my studio, it's, let's say, my client or whatever. So I think it's that sort of ungrown of maybe I need to have a bit more of input whereas you realize the most input you're going to have is what you do, where I actually let people go and do their stuff.

23:42How did you find the first few years of your studio? Obviously, with the take, obviously, you decided to take on more people. Did you feel like you had to scale up the input of the number of work or did you then turn into sales or networking, client management? What was that for you like? I mean, there are two sides to that question. The first one, scaling, has never been part of my plan and it really ties back to my last answer invest a lot in each and every individual and like when a new hire to me is a new friend and I'm not saying that in a sentimental sensational way I'm saying it in a way that again that I use the word Lucy but the genius of the studio is that the persons behind it are well loved and well taken care of as creatives and whatever they're capable of is really maximized so i am reluctant to just hire hire hire and then not know the people i work with and then it becomes like a factory like you streamline the process and it works for other agencies because maybe the scale of the projects they got they get or the kind of work they put out there but like to maya moomin who's who's the founder of a studio i very much admire a beirut-based studio studio software calls her work art leaning design which i think is a beautiful way to think about it and if you are going to be this art leaning designer that means that things take a lot of time take a lot of emotional toll on you and a lot of human to human connection so I am reluctant to scale for a reason and I think the studio works really nicely on that like boutique slash niche scale and I don't think right now it makes sense to scale the other side to that equation is that I'm also the business owner and I do the business side of things and for the most part we've been very lucky with clients kind of word of mouth and it's a snowball once you get like a good client base it starts rolling from there but it really is stressful and I'm learning the hard way that I need to delegate these parts to someone else.

25:56Like my operations manager now is the most important person in the studio because without her, I become the operations manager and then the studio doesn't really have creative leadership and everything falls. So I need to learn to let go of, for instance. But like, I don't regret it because for the foundation years, I feel like it was good to have an insider look into how the business is made and what makes the studio sustainable even if I to remove myself from that position I think it was necessary to be in that position for the first years it's interesting they you mentioned it was stressful like sometimes it can seem so peaceful and so poetic to I've got a studio we've got word we've got clients we employ people who are friends but it's still a business there's still a melee of things so how do you hire a friend how do you hire for a friend there was a case-by-case kind of situation Hussain and Mina were actual friends.

26:50The younger generation of designers were commended by friends of mine. And what I mean by hiring a friend does not necessarily translate as to hire a friend of mine at the moment, but I have to have the emotional and mental capacity for that person to be my friend eventually. And I have to be interested in them to be my friend and they have to be interested in me to be my friend because the intimacy we work with is very much like personal interests their mental health and how it really affects the work so that's what I meant by a friend for Hussain and Mina it was a bit different they were actual friends and the friendship took also some turns because of work but I would say it's like when you work with a friend this closely it's like a marriage so you have to accept them for they are and there will be ups and downs and everything is going to be affected by the so the interpersonal is going to be affected by work and the other way around but we're all i think the same level of intense and crazy and it works beautifully you used the word intimacy of creativity i mean that's again another beautiful term of like how you see the process of being all together in it like actually being all for one if that makes sense that no one gets left behind everyone's part of the project so So let's take a sort of random case study of like, how would you approach projects?

28:12Because you've shown beautiful imagery that is intricate, it's colorful, it's bold, the typography shines through and through. And how this becomes a thing. Now we know the research is quite solid, it's quite thorough. How would you then go into turning into something like this, into a visual of the client project? I think in a lot of cases, it's just a personal interest to one of the team members that really matches well with the project. So this is what I mean again by intimacy. We're like, I'm also keeping an eye at what really brings the team members in general joy and what are the kind of obsessions and like pockets of interest they're developing at the moment.

28:55So for instance, this Neem is really into mythology at the moment and she's reading into that. So this is a tab in my head. Mina is into, I don't know, this intersection between cyber slash internet culture and religions and folklore. They're usually very like absurd interests. And I'm keeping tabs of who is looking at what at the moment. And then we're introduced with a brief. And usually like the matchmaking of who is going to work on that product is heavily influenced by knowing their personal interests. and where their eyes at the moment. And from then comes, from then the research comes also naturally.

29:36This is how they get excited about the projects they're also on. And I also like do my job as a creative director of like poking things a bit here and there. I'm like, haven't you been looking into this recently? I think it might be a good idea to maybe expand on that research and so on and so forth. And sometimes we would go the extra mile to take on a project because I know that Nadine is into sculptures lately and I feel like maybe if we do something that's a bit more sculptural for that project, it will be interesting. So it's a conversation, it's a back and forth. It's not just a channel of projects that we get and then we figure it out from there.

30:12Like accepting a client is also something that I think about based on where the team is at the moment. I like what you said about a sculpture and is it good for the client? Because I wanted to know how much clients are aware of what your team might be into or what the skill set or the ambition might be, because sometimes, as we all know, clients don't always know what they want. And it's our role to say, hey, actually, you know what? We can do this. And we're like, can we? Yes, we can. And we can do it really good. So how would you get something like this with your interests of your team, let's say the sculptures?