Dare to protect your peace - Danielle Weber

0:08I don't want to burn out in two years' time and not be able to do this again. So I think the patience that I've had to get to where I am now is what I carry through the day-to-day encounters. Yeah, patience is a really big one. And just not getting too attached to every encounter or the things that we hope happen. I used to be like, oh, I hope this job comes through. Now I treat the things that I can't control as much a bit more transactionally. And it's not taking, it doesn't mean I don't care, but it's just, yeah, whatever's meant to happen will happen, but not get attached to every little conversation and encounter that you have.

0:50and just trust that whatever's supposed to land will.

1:02Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic, I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that spark lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question, are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

1:52My guest today has spent 15 years painting her way into the world, starting with watercolors at a young age, working her way up to large-scale, hyper-realistic murals across the streets of Australia. Danielle Weber is a muralist, creative entrepreneur and founder of the D Collective, a community she built because no one built it for her. In this conversation, we go well beyond the beautiful walls. We talk about what it really costs to create in public, the physical and emotional endurance, the strangers who will leave you alone while you work, and why Danielle believes slow growth is the only kind worth having.

2:26This is a rare and honest look at what it means to dare to create. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Danielle Webber.

2:43Hey Danielle, it's great to have you here. How are you doing? I'm great. We're great. You're here because of the shout out by our mutual friend, James Martin. He got me aware of who you are, what you do. And I have seen what you put out there in the world, what you create. And I thought, if that's not the definition of daring creativity, then I don't know what it is. For those who may have not heard of you or seen James's shout out, who are you? How would you introduce yourself? What do you do? We were just going to say big shout out to James and thank you. And we love you. and I'm sending big hugs from Australia.

3:15I appreciate him and I appreciate any creative that supports one another. Who I am, I have been an artist for 15 years now. I started in the studio a bit more traditionally and then my work evolved to murals. Through that process and figuring out that there's not much help out there, there's not much support and there's a lack of community, I then built and founded a community called the Deer Collective. And now I balance art and creating still and also just helping other artists and building and supporting creatives on their journey because I didn't have that. That's where I'm at at the moment.

3:59That's an interesting place in your life when you realize that the information that you wanted to find that was not available. you realise that you need to actually start something to change the status quo and realise that maybe you can be the change in the world that you want to see. So when you said you started 15 years ago in a studio what sort of work were you doing and how did it take you outside into who you are now which is muralist with huge portfolio? That's a good question I started painting portraits 15 years ago but if we take it strip it right back I started painting when I was eight or nine years old.

4:34And that was quite simple. It was landscapes and watercolors, pretty much anything that I'd gathered inspiration from, which I spent a lot of time outside and in the garden. And then a lot of my work initially was just exploration. I didn't know what I was doing. Still don't. And I was commissioned to do big selection of work. So it was from just abstracts to portraits to anime. And I guess this was a really good way to explore what I do like, what I don't like as much and just develop my skills more so. I feel like I still haven't found a style, but I very much enjoy the versatility in my work that I do now through murals.

5:14And I think I find the joy in working closely with clients and making people happy through my work, not so much me really tapping into the style side of it. This is really interesting what you just said, because I would get a feeling that waking up on that sort of eighth birthday and with the paintbrush in hand going, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. We're going to make for a very linear life that's contained within certain walls. But you've blown those walls out and said, I'm going to explore everything. Because I think it's in the music when they said, if you're a budding music producer, they tell you, like, make songs in a hundred different styles to find out what is the style that you really like.

5:49And I think it's one of the things that we don't potentially talk about enough for the novices in the industry, that kissing many frogs is a good thing. like going and trying and failing is actually something that shows you where you need to be because in your case it sounds like that was the resilience that was the discoveries and explorations of actually giving you an idea what you who you want to be and how you want to do it definitely and I think you said that perfectly as well and sometimes people get so fixated on trying to find that one thing that they end up not doing any of the things and yeah I feel like it's not time wasted but it's just if you're just going out and creating you you'll very quickly figure out do like this don't like that there's going to be some things that you carry through all of your work and there's going to be some things that you leave in the past so yeah I say kiss as many frogs as possible because it's a really good way to find out and enjoy the process along the way and if you don't enjoy it then you know that's something you probably won't revisit.

6:48How was the encouragement at the age of eight or nine from your parents where did it come from where did a love for painting come from it sounds like the garden was a good place to start but what you create obviously is so refined which was to show the years of how much you've been working and the elegance the speed the quality but obviously when you're very new to it did you need encouragement or was it then yeah so i'm very fortunate obviously technology wasn't as prevalent back then so I wasn't distracted by screens but in saying that my parents were really supportive and obviously they knew that I was different they knew that I couldn't really focus on your typical school tasks or anything like that so they tapped into that and mum would just set me up on the table and just say here's this just create this or whatever if I wanted watercolors just get them for me but not so much do any structured play it was like just play and figure out what you loved then when I started asking the questions of I want to learn how to do xyz she had the vcr and she'd put I don't think it was youtube back in the day but there was videos of people teaching how to paint and how to use watercolors and I'd sit there at eight and watch them and copy and that's how I started to learn and I think that support and that encouragement but not too structured.

8:14It was, you can figure out your ways, but we'll give you the tools and the resources to be able to do that. And that's essentially how it started. There was a big period in my teenage years where I lost my way and I didn't create and I was very rebellious. And then getting back into it, when I was in my later teens, you could tell that art needed to play a role in my life. I guess it grounded me and essentially saved me from a path of drugs and alcohol. So I just loaded that straight on you, but it was relevant because if it wasn't my parents encouraging me, I wouldn't have had that outlet. I really appreciate the honesty because before I talk about your time of your life, I need to find out how many Bob Ross videos did you watch?

8:59It could have been Bob Ross and I wouldn't have even known. I would have been like, this is the best thing ever and I didn't even know it was the Bob Ross. And I think a lot of people didn't know how great and how ahead of the times people like Bob Ross were back then. It's insane. Absolutely genius. But there's something meditative about work because as you said, if you lost your way, the work brought you back. Because you're my, on record, you're my third muralist. The previous two were called Stephanie. They're both based in Canada. and my previous theme of this podcast was around my book titled mindful creative because i just really wanted to know what goes in the mind of the creative especially in a space where you're pretty much on your own it's you and the elements it's you and the artwork obviously you the time and the endurance and all of that stuff together so how was the comeback from the teenage years what was it like to reconnect with painting and actually in a way be saved by the work from devices.

10:00Yeah, this is something that's taken a long time to process and actually understand. And I think when you understand it, you'll notice more people who are maybe not tapping into their creative side, hence losing their way. For me, when I came out of it, it wasn't a conscious thing, nor did I understand the meaning of what my art was doing for me. But I guess it does come down to curiosity and I think the curiosity in creatives, if they're not exploring it creatively, comes out in other ways. Yeah, coming out the other side of it, it was, I think, mentally, I still was so lost and inconsistent in how I showed up as a creative and troubled, you could say because of my lack of understanding.

10:55And then now looking back, you can see how I evolved as a person, but essentially it took time. It wasn't like I'm coming out of it and I'm saved and I'm good. It was like, I've been on this roller coaster for the last 10 years and now it's probably going to take another 10 to find that clarity and that consistency and just be really comfortable going through those waves without sending yourself on a roller coaster. well that's interesting you said i was inconsistent how i show up is that a reflection or was that a realization at the time a reflection for sure there's various factors involved in that but i think i'm sure a lot of creatives listening would be able to resonate with the fact that there's so many highs and lows you're creating good work shit work great work average work you're losing yourself in your work, you're being rejected, there's fear, there's so many moving paths.

11:53So I think I didn't understand the gravity of that and how that affected how I created until the last few years. So it was the 10 year mark that maybe I started to really understand that. And it has been the last five years that I've been really been working at, okay, how do I focus on my mindset so I can show up more consistently as a creative? Because I think that's ultimately one of the most important things i'm gonna relate to something to what i heard from my favorite philosopher alain de botton and he said that he feels that when we get born we get this picture of ourselves is scattered all around the place and we are slowly putting it together and making sense of who we are because through the book about this topic daring creativity and book titled daring forever i'm trying to understand what is the element of now versus how we have that inkling of i'm gonna go and do this thing because i've got pieces of information influence and inspiration together and then i'm gonna work out how to do it because if in my opinion because if you knew how to do all of it and if you knew the full picture of what's going to happen would you bother because it's like when you just mentioned rejection the confusion the lack of focus it's just oh this is far too much we need i think the naivety to get into this going I will find myself in this and it might take time because ultimately when you said it was a reflection it's good to know what you could have done better because you're working on yourself rather than people going it just happened exactly that's an interesting point and I think it ties into what we started with is a lot of people instead of just figuring it out and finding out because of the curiosity and the urge to do those things oh but what if I can get to there rather than just doing the things and evolving on the way.

13:42Yeah. The use of curiosity was interesting because you said if people are not exploring their curiosity creatively, then other things happen. So would you say that your curiosity took a detour not to be explored creatively and then you had to come back to it? Oh, yes, definitely. When I'm not challenging myself creatively, I notice that I see other risk-taking behavior or just the obnoxiousness in me. flares up which is so interesting and I think at 15 14 15 16 when I wasn't creating and that curiosity was then being explored in other ways drinking at a young age doing drugs hanging around with the wrong people getting in cars with random guys at a young age just all the risk-taking behavior that maybe if I was exploring that and getting that fix creatively in other ways I maybe wasn't or wouldn't have been partaking in that behavior wouldn't change a thing I think it's also relevant in the journey but it is very interesting and I see a lot of brilliant minds and a lot of brilliant creatives around me that are not using or tapping into their creativity and on paths that are maybe not ultimately for them and they battle with drug use and mental health and there's so many other things that arise that's a whole nother ball game but I think Like it's so evident.

15:06So curiosity, I will let you in on the concept of the book that I'm writing because I feel there's a four steps to us that we've been given this vessel, this vehicle, our bodies, hardwired, pre-programmed, they're ready to go. And then we step in as a driver, as the soul, as the mind. And then the next step is the journey, which is the curiosity, which is interesting because I can relate to what you're talking about. But the next step I identified is either destination or gratitude. so you've got curiosity and gratitude and i feel like in the place where you are now like you exploring the curiosity with the gratitude just realizing oh my god i have driven this thing from first to second to third to fifth gear to an accident to put it into reverse realizing don't go there and then going you know what i'm good because i think what i'm getting from what you're doing was how you talk about how you show up consistently now online and at your work i feel like there's a sense of gratitude realizing you know what this is amazing what i can do this is what i'm this is where i see myself and then going how can i be a benefit to other people because we've got your stage has been about 15 for 14 15 16 that's the i stage that's the like what can i do for myself then you realize what can i do for us and then oh yes this is we what can i do for no for the rest of us so what you put together is a magical mixture of things that are here not just for yourself but as you said for others by being mentored and providing the information for others what i want to talk about is the fact that you're very honest about how your business pretty much happens on almost daily basis because you show up online you i've been one of the busiest people i see on my instagram right now and i think honesty and you being able to do it and having the energy and actually having the willingness and the care and the gratitude for what you do, I think isn't important.

17:01So how did you find the whole social media and all of sort of these tools? Because you recently talked about the fact like, no, let me de-influence you. Let me show you that is not exactly what's happening. So how important is honesty in showing up consistently. We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lax Coffee Co., the first creative speciality coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lax Coffee Co. offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices and you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins, coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel at luxcoffee.co.uk.

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18:12It's a big one. Firstly, before I go into this, I just want to say I can't wait to read your book because everything that you said just then, I was like, yes, I love this. So I can't wait. But yeah, honesty in how you show up, the rawness, very interesting because for a long period of time, how did I find social media? I started on Facebook probably about 15 years ago. And then Instagram was maybe two, three years after that. So it was back in the days. It was a long time ago and it's definitely changed. I used to think that people, similar to what I've been speaking about, people only cared about the finished result, the finished piece of artwork, the polished me and I used to show up in a way that I thought I had to or I thought was professional.

19:08It wasn't until I encountered some like extreme highs and lows and then started having people stopping me when I was out and having these conversations which I'm extremely grateful for because I think there's messaging and there's meaning in every single encounter you have in your life on the day-to-day basis and I noticed that the narrative of those conversations were oh you've got everything figured out and you're sitting up here and I was like hang on there's something really wrong there's a few pieces missing between like maybe what I'm putting out and what people are perceiving versus what I'm actually going through on a day-to-day basis so that's when I had an aha moment and I was like actually it's not the finished thing product it's not the the polished me when I look great one percent of the time it really is the day-to-day shit that we enjoy as creatives and what goes on in our head that makes us who we are.

20:10It's been a really hard process trying to figure out actually how to communicate that while still spreading positivity because I would never want to be complaining or being like this sucks or this sucks because I think there's still so much beauty in the lows as well. So another whole other art form trying to actually communicate that in a way that's still impactful and not making me sound like I'm not grateful for everything. But yeah, that's why I think it is really important because perception is everything and I don't want, and I'm working through this at the moment with a coach, I don't want there to be a huge gap between me and people because it's not how it is.

20:49We all do the same things, we battle the same issues, sometimes on different scale, but it's all relevant and that's really important. What did it feel like to actually open up and show what the real behind the scenes happens because you talk about struggling being on your own like that took you a long time to be with yourself so did you feel exposed or did you feel liberated when you can actually say how things are liberated I would say I think there's a difference between sharing things when you're going through it at that exact moment and then a difference between sharing things upon reflection and I'd say a lot of the time I'm sharing upon reflection and it's a bit easier to do that and it is liberating.

21:36Sometimes when you do share when things are in real time, there's a bit more anxiety attached to it because of the feelings that you're feeling. That's a choice. That's a power of choice, like whether or not you want to do that in real time or wait and process those emotions. I think that's great too. But, yeah, I'd say definitely liberating for sure. How did you deal with, obviously, once you start opening up, you get a lot more traffic, a lot more engagement with your posts and people obviously share their stuff. How did it feel for you? Did it feel heavy that obviously people open up and obviously the more you put out there, the more people you see it, the more attention there is and obviously that takes more energy.

22:13So how did you deal with that? Because all of a sudden, you're not dealing just with yourself, but with a whole big crowd. Because I've been on social media for so many years and there has been a lot of, I mean, I've enjoyed like a lot of bullying online from such a young age. I feel like my nervous system has expanded slowly and it has been like quite a slow process. So it's not like all this energy has been coming at me all of a sudden. I think that's a great way, a natural way to grow on social media. People who go viral from one day to the next, it's a dangerous place to be so I'd say it gives me energy now I'm not affected by any negativity if that does arise if anything carry a lot of empathy for humans so I think that's a way that I can protect myself from that energy we have the choice as humans too if I'm not feeling great I'm aware that maybe I won't spend as much time on social media and I won't read the things but I think it's all a balancing act and I think yeah sometimes it does get heavy because people share a lot which I think is a privilege that people feel comfortable enough and I always say if you're changing like one person's life in that then that's like greater than maybe feeling a bit depleted after a huge day on the socials so yeah I think it's just a big balancing act when I'm on projects that I don't have capacity for anything else I'll just protect my energy and not spend as much time there because i was gonna say your project not only like your work not only takes you on socials but also takes you in the real world with no runner amongst real people and there's obviously two parts of this because i want to know like how is your emotional and creative endurance in this because i would guess that your pieces take from some days to potentially long span of time and having spoken to people like jim o 'brien haven't spoken to others how do you do this which part of this because sometimes for creatives that i've spoken to and i know from conversations they're like okay this is the easiest part i've got it all sketched out it's for me tough to enjoy it whereas some sometimes people say look my body's aching i am done and literally i'll just want this to finish and then you've got you versus you in your mind then you've got obviously the past in public you've got everything all together however how do you digest it how do you metabolize it how do you plan for this how do we go from just pixels and type on the screen to a real world and real work yeah I think you just perfectly explained all of that because there are so many layers to it for me I'd say I'm still working on this and the balance of energy and how I manage the outside world.

25:04I'm actually like working with coach at the moment like how do I put these boundaries in place because when I am working on the streets I want to talk to people and I want to give that energy and then I get really upset with myself at the end of the day because I'm like I got nothing got nothing in the tank. Over the years I've learned that like organization and being as structured and as meticulous about my setups as possible and focusing on the things that I can control is the highest priority. I used to think, no, I'm not going to go to the gym. I just need to get this mural done. I need to work 12 hour days.

25:40Let's just survive and get it done and see how I feel on the other side. And we all know how that would have gone. Now, yeah, so I prioritize the control, control the controller balls and then obviously just focus on the things that helped me create and sustain a project of three weeks and that's going to the gym eating wells probably like high up there as well limiting contact with my circles so that's friends family partner knows as well open dialogue about me not being as present and then just listening to my mind and my body throughout that process. I just finished a project last week and I had a quite rough day on the streets.

26:26There was just a lot going on and I just gave way too much energy and I just felt completely defeated. So I took a mental health day off, which I would never do that. I would never be like I'm going to stop mid-project, but the following day I was like I'm not going into work today. Could I ask what goes into a rough day on the streets? Is it just too much passing traffic, too much everything? How would you describe it? Sometimes it's not perceived as like a, as a job. So people don't understand that me working on the street, isn't a place for you to come and chat and hang out all day and bark at me.

26:58I need to concentrate. I need to get a job done. I need energy to actually put that energy into the wall and into the art. So I had acquaintances turning up and talking for hours day after day, family, which is hard. And I was working around housing commissions. So I had someone up the road that needed help moving a couch. So I did that. This is me trying to be really diplomatic in explaining this. So this is the polished version. Someone else who's been battling other things, who has wanted to show me videos and talk every day. and I carry a lot of empathy and I was like this is actually really important it could change this person's life so we did that every day there was also someone else who was maybe a bit disabled being like oh it's really sensual watching you paint and touching my arm and saying would you do that was that's also a very pg version of what happened so yeah that's just a little snippet of the days that can happen and mostly do happen on the street so then if you put your headphones in people will tell you that you're rude and that you need to give them time and that you should talk to them and i'm grateful for your answer and i'm happy that i asked because that is a true mirror and not a true window into what happens on the street into your world into your life that really makes so much sense because creative lives or creative careers can seem so poetic you've just drawn this beautiful mirror that sounds so fantastic only to literally when they pan with the camera like look this is the organized shot and this is the shit behind the scenes and it feels like that's what you're going through because i was thinking when you were describing what has been happening i'm like you need to take relief out of banksy's book when he just erects like a scaffolding or like a screens and you just hide behind it and even though you might have had positive impact on someone's life it sounds like it's draining then you've got the work to do And I'm still so conscious.

28:59I'm like, I want to be so gracious. My community asked me, they were like, oh, what's it actually like? And I told them that the other day. And then I said, but it is such a privilege. It is the utmost privilege to be creating and trusted to create like that. but also to have those conversations and those encounters because not everyone has that colourful diversity in the beauty of art and then the rawness of the streets, the comfortability of how people share because you're standing there painting. It's like you're just like I'm a creative and I'm open to this and I'm going to share. So it's just it's the utmost privilege but also the most difficult thing because it is something that you love and you try to protect it with everything but you also just sometimes can't and that's the choice that you make as a mural artist I'm very honest about that when I speak to people who are like I want to be a mural artist I'm like it is brutal it is not sunshine and rainbows it is the most rewarding thing but it'll test you in all ways that you would never have even imagined I'm just thinking about those two polarizing worlds or maybe they're not even polarizing but you've got a studio where you're on your own and you struggle with loneliness and being on your own then you take it out we've been taken to the streets and you're still on your own plus thousand strangers thinking i didn't want to be on my own but what are you doing what's going on here so funny because what you just said is what i battled with for so many years because i'd be on back-to-back murals and I'm like, I can't wait to get in the studio.

30:41And then I'd go in the studio, I'd be like, I'm lonely, but I needed that time. But that was the contrast that I was dealing with. So I'm like, can't wait. And then I'd get there, I'm like, this is horrible. I'm lonely, this is sad. I'd go into a depressive state and now I'm just like, okay, we need to approach carefully and tread carefully so I'm not riding these insane highs and lows and joining the circus that the streets are. It was beautifully explained. We are half an hour right now. I haven't really asked you about the work and the expression of your soul and how you put it all together.

31:16But I'm glad that we painted the picture of what happens before you actually paint the picture. how do you get to find we know the process of obviously landscapes creating having a break coming back to it but your work it's hyper realistic it's quite detailed it's full of fantastic definition how long does it take from being eight or nine drawing landscapes and actually being able just to do this is so well and being confident that you can entertain all the strangers on the street and still produce the best quality work if i'm going to be completely honest I would say that I still feel like a complete infant in my craft and that as much as I'm very proud of my work I still look at it and think I'm not there I'm not where I want to be I'm just getting started so I think the obsession that I had with getting better made me more of a polished craftsman rather than an artist so I know that whatever brief I'm given I can do very well but in terms of the creative aspect of being an artist I feel like I haven't tapped into that and I think I'm confident in myself and the product that I deliver and the experience that I can give people and the feelings that are attached with it but I'm probably not I wouldn't say probably not i'm not confident in my work the creativity in my body of work yet but we threw you off guard i don't want to sit here with a faux therapist hat but if you potentially in your case if you felt that the work is right that everything's the way exactly wanted to be that would have completed the chapter i think that would be the element because you're still exploring the curiosity like the curiosity is still there and still searching for what's next and how can we better and how can we do stuff i think maybe that's just a true energy of an artist an eternal mission of actually discovering who they can be and what they can achieve i believe there are chapters in our lives let's say with every decade you've picked up all of the conversations on the street all the knowledge you've picked up from everyone else like i can find out about yourself and then realizing okay i have done things that i'm going to take into the next decade and i'm going to keep some of these in the past decade because i don't need to redo it because that's that i have a different view of your work i think if i was to be able to do what you do obviously i would be thinking about differently about myself that doesn't mean that you're harsh on yourself it's just it's that journey because some people might be thinking exactly the same as i'm just talking about you doing this but i know that you are grateful i know that what you're doing is to still can i ask that one percent extra can i just do a little bit better can i just do this because that's just a constant journey because when you say this is great I'm done then maybe that's the end of that chapter and something completely new starts yeah yeah and I think as you said like there's chapters and for me like chapters or seasons but I'd say in this season I said to my mum the other day the thought of studio work at the moment isn't exciting me which is so interesting because usually I'd love to just sit and paint in my studio but I'm not really being drawn to it at the moment.

34:37Maybe this season is more about community and giving back. I've let go of the fact that you need to be doing all the things all the time and more so realizing that I'm like, okay, this chapter, this season serves a purpose as well. And I think once you let go of that, you keep moving forward rather than getting stuck in this little hamster wheel. So I guess, yeah it's a really beautiful place to be but it took me a while because I was like if I'm not working on campuses or working on the next collection then I'm less of an artist or I'm not moving forward on actual pieces then maybe I'm not doing enough but I think there's other things that you could be doing to move forward as well.

35:23You're also you're a person who actually introduced himself as I'm a full-time artist that already is a statement of intent like I'm a full-time artist but i want to know if with the work that you create for the clients that you create obviously there's a lot of portraiture there's large-scale pieces how much of a balance between client briefs your creative input a creative expression is there because having spoken to some viewers before it changes from one person to another everyone's got a different style but as in yours is that sort of hyper-realistic style there is fluidity there's different subjects but How do you sell it?

36:01How do you get approached? How do you get from that sort of initial inquiry into the final piece on the wall? So I think what you said about Mural is saying it's different all the time is very true because it depends on the client. It depends on the purpose. and I think at this stage in this chapter my priority is working with good people and then the work and the freedom and whatever comes with it is a bonus if there is more creative freedom. Most people I am working with at the moment will say this is what I'm wanting or I don't know what I'm wanting can we workshop that. So I'd say that there is a happy medium between like me working with the client and having the creative freedom as well.

36:51I do some guidance. I know some artists don't, but I like some guidance because it sparks my thoughts and means that I can create the best outcome for them. But in saying that, when people are coming to me with a reference or I want a portrait of X, Y, Z, there's not often a lot of creative freedom in that brief process, if it's just one person or a portrait freestanding on a wall. And that's where I will tap into the storytelling of who I'm painting. And I will look at ways on how to level up like my portraiture and how I communicate emotion, how I storytell online, how I build out the content.

37:35So I think if there's perhaps not creative freedom in the brief, I will channel that in other ways. And I think that's why I can and I enjoy versatile work because I'm always enjoying the creative aspects in different ways and not just more so in the actual mural itself. How long did it take you to work out who are good people? Intuition is something I probably didn't pay enough respect to earlier on and because you don't have that confidence and you haven't put those stripes or you haven't built up those stripes, you maybe doubt your confidence and intuition. It has taken 15 years. I'd say I've now finally gotten to a stage where I can identify the red flags and I can confidently say no to work, even if it means turning down a big job monetary-wise as well.

38:28I can confidently protect my peace without being disappointed in not saying no. I don't know who says this, but disappoint others before you disappoint yourself. Yeah. I think if you've been in business for this long and you've had that many communications, and I say this to my community and who I mentor, say every conversation you have is not a waste of time. Every bit of communication serves a purpose in how you can then identify what you do and don't want and who you want to work with. So putting the time and the energy into building relationships and having those conversations has allowed me to then figure out exactly what I do and don't want.