Dare to speak every creative language - Samuel Mensah-Bonsu

0:10And I feel like the way to really describe it is like the perfect assistance. If you're trying to start a creative idea or a project or a business, these are the questions. You can ask this thing, the questions that you need to ask to do that sort of thing, a particular project, a particular idea, you can use it at the beginning or the middle or the end. The beginning, wait, you have no idea what you want to do or how you're going to do it. What even is that's on your mind? Or just ask and talk to it and see what happens. You can have in the middle where you have a faint idea of what it is, where you need to sharpen it or grow it and expand it.

0:50Or use the other end. But you're pretty much almost done with the idea.

1:03Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

1:54Today I'm speaking with Sam Mensah-Bonsuy, a London-based creative director and experience designer at Microsoft, where he's part of a small team shaping how millions of people interact with AI through Copilot. Sam's journey is one of relentless invention. From a bedroom creative chasing the magic of movies, to agency work, to boardrooms, to mentoring the next generations, to designing experiences used by millions, at every turn he moved toward the biggest change happening in the world, armed with more languages than the room expected him to speak. In this conversation, we explore what it means to build a career on curiosity and generosity, how giving back became the foundation of everything Sam does and why AI is our invitation to stop thinking small.

2:37It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Sam and Sabontae.

2:53Hey, Sam, it's great to see you. How are you doing? All good, all good, Radham. How are you? I'm all right. I'm excited to learn how some of the biggest software companies use AI, where you slot into in the process, and actually how do you even end up working on AI in one of the biggest software companies in the world? We're going to join the doors. We're going to go high and low, left and right, front and back, to find out who is Sam. So for those who may have never heard of Sam Menter Bonsu, who are you? What do you do? How would you introduce yourself? Firstly, just honored to be on this platform.

3:25Big fan of daring creativity and just yourself in general as well. So looking forward to what we talk about today. Yeah, I think in a nutshell, Simon Soponsu is just a creative, actually trying to use creativity to improve the world in some way, essentially. So I started out very young and wide-eyed, trying to make very cool things. I was just always inspired by just the idea of visuals from movies to music videos to anime. I just wanted to make cool things. Now, more developed, I want to make things that still look cool, but also have something in terms of making a world better in some way, essentially.

4:00Using design and creativity to improve lives is what I'm into. You mentioned movies. You mentioned music videos. What sort of era are we talking about? What was inspiring you? I was born in 1990. Slightly younger than you. Just a little bit. So pretty much was this case where it's like movies. from Arnold Schwarzenegger to Jean-Claude Van Damme to action movie, sci-fi, Fifth Element, The Matrix. I always go back to The Matrix as an inspiration, foundation, just in terms of the ideas, the concepts, the visuals. It just always re-energizes me in terms of his creativity and what's possible. That's my North Star almost.

4:37It's my favorite movie. I've seen possibly be there like a hundred times. That kind of era, essentially. And going into the 2000s, things like Dragon Ball z things like anime like in general essentially spirited away these are my awakenings in terms of saying yeah i like that i want to reproduce that like i want to be able to draw that and remake these things that inspiration that it gave me i wanted to make things that in turn then inspire other people essentially for a long time i thought the greatest thing that you can do as a creative is to inspire someone to also make things as well you want to make things that make people also want to make things so for a long time even before like i discovered the internet and all the blogs and deviant art and behance and things like that just making things that allowed other people to go wow i'm gonna go make something as well now that was my thing so when i did discover the internet that stood it to a thousand i was inspired to create more things and then that made other people want to create things as well and that was circulation that's all the inspirational creativity is about just the give and take of the universe just giving us things that we make things and give it back that's how i see the world essentially i'm interested that you improve the world and inspire others it feels quite responsible like a responsible creativity right from the start because you're telling me through all of these amazing movies the 90s classics and the 2000s classics that have shaved so many lives and those movies were there to entertain and you are forming your sort of visual tapestry of these ideas and inspirations but i'm thinking was there any hindrance to the innocence that you were creating because i'm sure it was it was a lot more spirit free to what you're describing but was there the initial seed of that visual responsibility of actually creating for others where did that come from where did that feeling of needing or wanting to inspire come from the idea like of benevolence is that i thought someone made this the thing that i'm looking at say kill bill like that's one of my favorites of all time things and the visuals that are in that someone made that and i was like okay i want to take that and make something that is almost like an homage to replicate it that's what you do you replicate you pay homage to the thing that inspired you so even from the beginning my design philosophy like a creative philosophy has always been about homage paying back giving giving back, inspiring others.

7:07Because at the end of the day, it's an essence of free energy and free inspiration, essentially. So we take it and we make things and we give it back to the world eventually. I don't know where it came from. That's a very good point to make. And I never really saw it like that until now. But absolutely, even from the get-go, I've always been a case of giving back and an understanding that it's not for me to hold on to. It's for me to make things where I can give back. And the goal is to try and inspire others. I can show people, I can give it out there. If it does, amazing. But maybe sometimes it doesn't.

7:41And even those times, that's okay as well. But the goal is to always make something that aims to inspire that next person. It's like domino effect, essentially. Yeah. I'll be allowed a question I haven't asked for a very long time. And that is, do you remember the very piece of creative work you actually made? So it was a case where I used to beg my brother to, because he was in college at the time, I used to beg him to go to the library and print out images of Dragon Ball Z so he can bring them home so I can draw them as well and just replicate. That would be the case of just asking him to go and print these cartoon characters out and then they'll come home and I'll trace them, I'll draw them or I'll paint them as well essentially.

8:18That was my sort of like introduction to creativity essentially and those cases where I was copying. I was learning just how to do it. I was trying to be as good as the original even though that's never the case right but that's how we start. like just trying to do things. And even when I discovered Photoshop, like it'll be case where like I'll try and replicate movie posters. I'll try and do my own take on them. I can duplicate them, replicate them. okay, those guys in the big studios, they probably did it like this, right? They use that sort of layering effect for masking effect. And then they did it like that.

8:50And then, and it's there. So a lot of the time it was just me paying homage to what I've already seen and duplicating it. But also learning as well at the same time, just how these things are done. because there was there's a huge level of fascination that came with it felt like magic like what when you saw something incredible like a nice film or a poster it was magic to me and a lot of time it still is that people are able to make these things i know we'll get to it but that's the reason why i'm so fatuated with ai basically is that we're able to make magic just like this these things have taken hours or days or weeks before we can now do it like in a few minutes and a few dollars but we can make some really cool things and that level of magic like it's always really inspiring me and it's still in there like it's still a key part of the creative process is magic and i fondly remember those early days and what it meant to create and have the privilege an ability to create with tools whether it be a printout or an adobe creative suite or the bare bones being able to make something that i felt like the original thing that inspired you yeah man amazing times so i don't want to push back on what you just said because you talk about so eloquently and so passionately about all of the craft that was it's going to kill bill matrix all of the other movies no one's ever mentioned jean-claude van damme or schwarzenegger on this podcast yet and then you said we use ai to make magic and i'm like none of those people used ai to make magic star wars blood sweat and tears but i will talk about ai because this is currently where you are at the forefront with microsoft but i'm looking at your cv and crikey you've been anywhere like this is this is very beautifully linear and non-linear cv in a way like with the your sort of your creative history and what makes me really pleased to see that you've been talking about the 90s music videos and one of the first few jobs you had was for mtv and british film institute so actually you've got exactly the curiosity was taking you am i right we'll be back after a quick break this episode is brought to you by lux coffee co the first creative speciality coffee company, building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond.

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11:52so interesting because even those things that there were like internships or very quick freelance projects but but yeah and even those campaigns particularly the british film institute that was a product that i did so whilst i was in uni like an interning for the bfi and I was able to have the opportunity to do the campaign for the Future Film Festival, which is a festival of emerging directors, producers, filmmakers, stuff like that. And the campaign's tagline that I created was to enter the magic of movies, a campaign that I did. So at the time, it was just me and my friends. I had my SLR camera, my women around London, and I literally just took posters of them jumping in the air.

12:32But the concept was that when they jumped, I'll take that image into Photoshop shop and i'll erase them so like literally be their clothes that's remaining so i'll erase their hands erase their feet erase their heads it'll just be the clothes because the concept was that they've been transported like into the magic of the film when you're in a cinematic or the theater the film is so good you feel like you're in the film so you've left your body almost so that was the campaign i made and i was like maybe 19 at the time or something or 18 at the time and yeah and they published it so that was the first time i actually saw my art being on billboards like in waterloo where the bfi is it was a huge moment for me and i was like wow i had this idea like my bedroom right now it's like a national campaign basically it was a good feeling even then i was always like magic because creativity like film making all this stuff is magic i don't know if i explained as well but my initial career direction is I wanted to be a director I wanted to make films but the entry point for films and doing films making films was really hard like you could get funding get the right big enormous cameras or whatever essentially and the entry point was really difficult whereas for me to be a designer like all I needed was my laptop and a cracked version of Photoshop and I was able to begin making things.

13:57So I felt like for a lot of people, the entry points of difficulty based on availability and things like that. Because if things did go my way and I was able to get the resources I need to start making films the way I want to do, then I would be a director right now in doing that. But I've always involved photography and direction and filmmaking and everything that I've done, even when I start making my fonts. as well in 2012 a big part of that was the influence of films within the campaigns for the response that made people just go whoa so i've always carried that in my work like in a sense even the work i do now as well i swear again the ai event film is just so cool and magic so i'm always trying to just bring it into what i do i liked your ambition i liked your ambition that you are just barely out of the gates and you're like i don't have funding to be a director just yet but you know what there's a correct version of photoshop so maybe i'll just use that but you never know because the way we accumulate our skills and knowledge and understanding of how things work if you manage to pull it off and get a budget and produce a movie how many of 20 year old directors are they when you're talking about the sort of breaking point into the industry you need to prove yourself people need to know how they spend money right at least from my understanding whereas the entry point and how you did it and obviously where you arrived and what you've created is like it's all data points that add up together to who you are today so i can see that you've gone and got a proper job at akqa afterwards what did that feel like because obviously what you're describing from this point of storytelling creating your time faces being inspired by movies and a proper big screen you got to work on some amazing accounts that sounds like you know you got to actually put it all together right you don't have your skills yeah that was the culmination of an entire childhood of experimenting and being inspired and doing more things outside the classroom than probably the average person did i had a million side projects one of them was developing my own typefaces in fact i developed two typefaces whilst i was in uni showcased them as my final projects and stuff like that and actually three technically i also made one of sweets as well which is the one that the creative director at akqa and my degree show nlcc philiphan and castle this was july 2013 and at the time it was so many people come to you give you business cards you talk in your shoes i didn't think anything of it we had a good conversation and then the very next morning there may be an offer to join AKQA specifically on the Nike football account as well and it was just like this can't be real and it felt like an overnight success but again it was a combination of sort of years and years of really working hard to prove myself of my skills talents and vision to say yeah I deserve to be at particular agencies or do particular work essentially so it felt good and that was the beginning essentially you worked so hard to get to that role and then that role like is is the end of the beginning but then beginning of the rest of your life basically in terms of okay now you're in the industry now you're working towards creating a legacy in terms of like amazing work and amazing clients relationships impact all these things essentially so i credit my creative director his name is dev i don't know where he is right now actually dev he changed my life man and now 13 years later i'm still here he had a good idea time if the internet's anything to trust i literally i found a piece of i want candy a poster and it's an article from 2013 so it's 13 years later i went viral that year man that was all going for our look like in 2013 by the way being featured on all these blogs and everything like that was our language in terms of virality but it was still early 2010s it felt more innocent because yes we're gonna talk about magic nai but this is all photoshop all of this stuff is even made by hand or photoshop that's made by hands so that was me again just doing something like in my bedroom where i literally went to the pick and mix bought 10 pounds worth of sweets bought an 81 sheet of paper literally just drew the outline of the font and i did it in two styles one and the style of avant-garde typeface another one in the style of helvetica and the helvetica one was the one that really took off essentially so i carefully arranged the sweets and the sprinkles like on all the things it was carefully arranged then i literally just got my slr camera and a very sort of makeshift studio light like in my bedroom and two pictures of these like manipulated them in photoshop and And that was essentially very makeshift and very toil and sweat.

18:53Could be done in 10 seconds now. But that was the reality. And it was so simple, but that was it. It makes me think engines have been actually trained on that picture just to say, hey, what does sweets like look coming in? But you're talking about a time where I can look back, cast my mind back and think like in Photoshop, where we try to do by hand, how many more physical things more present in our work. And then obviously the software got so much better recreating it digitally so like have you got an idea and five seconds yes here we go go but yeah i think the other sort of important part of your experience learning was working for mckinsey which is not what i would normally expect or know from a designer to find themselves so it shows me the way the curiosity was going that has led you to where you are today yeah absolutely i think to really understand that i need to go backwards trying to spend more time just explaining akqa a little bit more so akqa i was able to work on some of the most impressive brands in the world from nike to google to virgin the list goes on essentially and i was really just infatuated with how these companies work and do their campaigns and do their rollouts like i was fortunate enough to work on the campaign for the world cup for nike i was fortunate enough to do the branding like an identity for virgin sports but now defunct sort of brand under the virgin umbrella.

20:17And it was a very interesting process where it's like I understood just how things work at that level. Specifically, the course I studied at my university was advertising. I've always been fascinated with advertising where design and business meet, where creativity and business meet. So like in my youth, my younger years, I used to believe the pinnacle of that was advertising. If you do a really good poster or like a really good commercial to sell a product or service or anything, That in turn makes a spike in business and therefore business is successful. So that was always my passion to really see design and business be married at the top, essentially.

20:56And yeah, for me, that was AKQA. And I was really just working towards that. And then I started putting, I realized, oh, you learn more and you grow more. And then you realize, actually, you know what? There's more to this. So even before my foray into McKinsey was my foray into product design. So leaving alone the art direction and visual design and drifting more into product designs, so UX and UI. This was at a time where in mid-2010, so 2015, 2016, 2017, where the product design slash UX, UI sort of industry was really blowing up, becoming like a real thing. We saw the emergence of tools like Sketch, and it became a reality.

21:40So again, it's about the entry point. It's about the availability and the way to get into things, essentially. So one of my final projects at AKQA was like a UX UI project for the BBC, for David Attenborough specifically. It was an app that was an archive of all of Attenborough's work at the time. So literally decades and decades of footage and archives sorted into one place where people can go see it. Essentially, that got me really engaged and intrigued and pretty much in love of UX UI developing products. Because even then before that, I worked in some Nike apps, some concepts as well that never really got anywhere.

22:16Bear in mind, the reason why KQQA was who they were was because of the Nike apps they developed and the web experiences and stuff like that, that really took over. I was a real catalyst in terms of that sort of era in terms of smartphones, the running app they made. Just when we were able to see, sort of begin using smartphones in our everyday lives, that revolution on the smallest screens in our world now became the most interesting place to design for essentially the the mobile device that became the most popular thing to design for at a stage and that was that was inspired to go more in that direction so just before i went to mckinsey i left hqa and actually worked at this design studio called native design where i was more also focused on like industrial design so i was able to work with architects and industrial designers developing real products physical products for the first time so i was able to apply my ux and ui onto the tiny screens that that will go on a stereo or some speakers or a laptop or driverless car these are the kind of things that i was able to work on and it was really good but at the same time i was like i want a new challenge like i want to go like in the most sort of corporate environment to really see where I can take us to the highest level in terms of where design and business meet because that was still my passion I haven't done that yet and the opportunity in McKinsey came looking at the door the recruiter just reached out to me and said hey do you want to join and do this and I was yeah just give it a try let's see where it goes and boy was it a journey it was two and a half years of traveling the world developing products and services for large conglomerates rubbing elbows with CEOs and C-suite leaders and really instilling design and design first culture in companies that never seen this before.

24:12So design led thinking, design protocol, now taking the forefront. Before they didn't even care about design led approaches and that's becoming the forefront of these things. And it was a case where that was a very special time it was all inspired by ibm i feel like they were the catalyst in terms of really beginning to invest in design at the time that then inspires all of the other consultancy like a more sort of business led firms to begin to do the same thing so that was a real sort of turning point like in industry i've gone at the right time and wrote that way of essentially myself as well yeah wow what a journey because i want to know about you in those situations because you're talking about journey which for some that's already beautifully non-linear path into what you've kind of set out to do because you've taken it from a big screen to the small screen as you say that was where people were designing for for their mobile phones what i'm also feeling there is that to me it could feel like it's a linear story but it's a non-linear story with the experience as you've decided to obviously learn the business and it's the creativity and you mentioned yourself being in a room with c-suite leaders and ceos that old still when you're in that windows rooms and you're trying to what i believe what you describe it sounds quite big and robust change in some of these organizations how did you feel in those situations like a minute ago you were talking about kill bill and band down and now you're talking to ceos and big companies about design-led culture so how did you get through it how did it go oh man i was shaking myself And that was the whole thing about it.

25:53I love that time so much. Okay, so pretty much the way I've meandered, someone of my background creatively doesn't really end up in a place like McKinsey. That's why a lot of my previous colleagues were just like, what the hell are you doing? And there was, it was selling out because I came from a very traditional graphic design, typography, like illustrations or background. And then there's almost, you're selling yourself the man basically by going to McKinsey. So you don't really, it takes a very specific kind of individual to, done what I've done in the past, my design upbringing, and I make the transition to McKinsey essentially.

26:31Because the kind of folks that go to McKinsey are much more systematic sort of thinkers. The more methodical designers that didn't come from like an AKQA or making candy fonts in their bedroom, they don't come from that essentially. It just showed the type of mentality I've always had in terms of being that bridge. and still being that connected to understand, oh, this is where design and business, design and commerce meet at the highest level. And these are the steps to take and to understand that, okay, yeah, it means you need to speak many languages. The language that I've been speaking for the past decade of my life at the time and then learn these new languages around, say, strategy or corporateness, methodologies, and these things, and to learn these things and become so equipped and so believable and efficient in it that they believe that I've always been this way but I hadn't it's something that that was learned and taught essentially so when I find myself in these rooms one of my bosses at the time he made me realize that you're not here to fit in you're here to stand out purposefully your power in a company like this isn't how you stand out because at the time I used to come to work wearing like everyone else basically and it felt good to wear a suit to work it was like that's not you and you don't need to do that and your power is not in that your power has been able to be who you are but still communicate value and impact the way you can to these other folks that wear suits and tires every day and when I began to understand that I felt a lot more comfortable in those rooms with the c-suite leaders because at the end of the day all we're communicating is value and impact and you can have all the suits, all the fancy numbers, all the jargon and elaboration.

28:13But if you're not saying anything that really drives impact, like in direction, not saying anything relevant eventually. So that became my new language, essentially an impact and value. And if I was able to communicate those things, I could wear beach shorts and sandals and crooks and I could still do that essentially. But it was a real rigorous time of sharpening and learning. And I was sweating all these things every single meeting and it's What's going to happen today? You never know what's going to happen. Every day it was a new movie. You never really know just how it was going to play out.

28:46But thankful for how it shaped me, molded me in terms of being the thinker, like an ideas person that I am today. That means that my arsenal is so solid, like I'm robust and strong in terms of being able to speak various creative languages, not just one or two or three, but that's how it sharpened my outlook. I like what you used, the term of speaking different creative languages, because the graphic designers that were telling you that you were selling out are barely speaking one language of graphic design and it's about being versatile because ultimately where all of this got you which is now you work for microsoft and the ai team it wouldn't have been for if it wasn't for any of these previous steps you have picked up all of these snippets all of these pieces together you glue them together and become who you are now so before we get there i think it might be appropriate to talk about what you did when you started around 2015 because you created youth worldwide it's a global creative outfit that is dedicated to showcasing emerging creative talent and when you started at the beginning with the words inspire and improve that feels like a natural side project that i feel like it's fitting with the narrative of where you got today on that mission so where did it come from youth world yeah so that was a case where like i'm at the time I'd been at a KQA for two years.

30:11I felt like I made it. I felt like I was a rock star. Working on the coolest projects, the coolest clients. And there's a part of me that felt like I wanted to give back in some way to take on younger creators. I mentor them to show them just the creative ideas I had. I had to work on particular projects together, essentially, because I felt like, okay, I'm at the top of the mountain. Let me see if I can bring people up with me or something. That was essentially the emotion, again, going back to the whole sort of inspiration, giving it back, paying it forward. That's always just been my DNA, essentially.

30:45That was truly just inspired by me surrounding myself, opening up myself to work with and collaborate with younger creatives to do really ambitious projects and showcase their work. From developing a clothing label to doing architectural foundations for homes in Africa, essentially. and so many very ambitious things that I was doing with very, not unqualified people, but very young people that wanted to do this as their careers, essentially. So working with young architects, like young tailors, young videographers, animators, and not giving them the foundation and the space to create work, give them budgets, to create, produce work, to give them the things I didn't really have.

31:32when I was coming up essentially to do all these things as a showcase they were at exhibitions so like I put up the money to showcase the work in these venues so people can see they can have that feeling of what it felt like to have their work be seen by hundreds and to put it forward in that way essentially that was the ambition eventually we did it successfully and then that summer of next year we went to Ghana to do some teaching for a week at Ghana's only design university called a chester university and it just inspired me that this is the way forward in terms of what youth worldwide can and should be a creative collective yes but then also like a platform that encourages and seeks out to uphold design education and to understand the value of design education as well to make a viable opportunity for young people to know about as well essentially because we live in time where creative education design education like it's been stifled out of schools.

32:29They're defunding the art design programs every single day from schools, from colleges, from universities even. It's not respected the way it should be. And Youth Worldwide was a very strong sort of disruption to say, no, we believe it should be back in schools. And while we believe it should be, the industry is thriving. So many people are talented and deserve the opportunity to work in the industry, but nobody knows how to do it. So the thing was demystifies a lot about the industry to show them just how diverse and deep like it does go and to educate them on that at a younger age as well so not by university level by primary school level they should be learning about careers in the industry and just how diverse they go from screenwriters to animators stop motion to all these things that exist and will exist in the future as well to say that a career in this industry is not only worthwhile but necessary in terms of actually just keeping creativity and thriving society.

33:27Around that time when you were promoting, when you were working with you worldwide, you actually said that black designers, one of the mottos that drove you to push this forward, it says black designers are never placed at the forefront. How did you find it as a person of color in what is, let's be honest, predominantly white industry? You said you were on the top of the mountain because usually you were pushing, you were striving, you were what you were achieving. But how did it feel for you to fit in, to belong? What did it feel like? Because I can see from your philosophy and from your strive to inspire and to empower and to uplift others, that's great, but it's sometimes being the first one to do it or one of the first ones to do it or pushing for the others to do it, it's a lot heavier than for anybody else.

34:18So how was it for you? That's a great way to put it. for me like it felt just natural it felt like this is my duty and what I should be doing because I just hoped and prayed that if I ever got to that position in the first place this is what like I'm going to do because when I was at my level when I was younger there wasn't that person to look at to help me and this is where I'm really gonna tell a story of a mutual friend of ours called Dines. Dines was one of the first Black people that I saw in the UK that was where I wanted to be. Dines was the founder of Studio Blub. I'm the leadings of independent studios and agencies in the UK.

35:10And that was the only example. Even to this day, I think, specifically, the world of graphic design, visual design, it's still the only example that i've seen that benchmark of someone that's going to penetrate and be accepted in that sort of community and industry like in that way essentially that was he was the first not me but if anything that question should be asked him eventually and it's like how the hell did he feel like but again i i feel like the way that he meant to me under his wing is what i wanted to do for many others that came after me as well essentially in terms of the impact that they can make as well, essentially, if we just put some energy and some belief into these young creatives as well.

35:56When I use the words underrepresented, I was speaking to people that look like me from places I'm from as well, essentially, like specifically working towards showcasing them and their skills and talents to a broader range. I believe one of the young designers that were working with at the time was 15 years old and the work that they did with us meant that they got a scholarship to college to university stuff like that as well so it meant that we were doing something right again there was something there that just felt right as well in terms of this is what we should be doing and this is the direction that we should be moving in essentially my only thing was just that i got to an age where i got a mortgage and therefore like i had to be very cautious of money in terms of just how much I was splurging on everyone.

36:44And then it wasn't really the same after that. But I still just remember the impact that was made in those few years where I was able to just give them everything that they needed and where their careers are now and the cohorts. That happens after that in terms of the other young people I've been able to work with as well. I know the impact of taking them under your wing and really supporting them and seeing them flourish essentially. actually now that's evolved into my new platform creator supply where again it's more case of teaching the hustle showcasing the hustle given those gems of knowledge and information that allows for folks to to fulfill the creative destiny but ultimately yeah again like it's always based in giving back and educating and and uplifting and encouraging folks to to tap into their talent tap into their gift to go for greatness when you talk about creative supply you got this quote which says my cheat code is simply to always remember that it's about serving others how can i give more value create more opportunities and for self-humanity in the best way it's what i mean you are at that stage for very long time that some of us get in the season three or chapter three because it's first it's about me as in when you when you egoistic sort designer and then it's about okay i'm here for the company what can we do for us and then you go okay that's what is the we not the royal we but like the society what can i do for the other outside the working environment more like on the level of society and i feel like you're doing a lot for others what i was doing for you at that time because you mentioned obviously the contact or make a QA that changed your life and set you on the path.

38:38But do you have a person in your life that is actually there for you and pushing you and helping you? Yeah. One of my best friends since college days, he's been the one that's been pushing me as well. And of course, my wife as well. Those are probably the only two people that really know everything and have been with me looking at every step of the journey and really understand just how my brain works in terms of just what things I want to make, like where I want to go in my career as well but what's funny is that I never really think about just what others can do for me basically because I thought maybe it's my personal empathy like I'm always like a very transactional transaction in terms of I can prove my value if you give me the opportunity that was always just what I wanted to do like even back when I was in uni and I got the opportunity to do an internship for Gilbert and George the famous British fine artist and i was living in the studio in shortage that job was given to me by my typography teacher in uni and by me just going up to him and saying hey what else can i do like outside of class i can help you i don't know because i felt like so much information and knowledge that he gave me like i wanted to pay him back in some way because again from my brain work essentially what value can i bring essentially and he said look i used to intern for gilbert and george when i was your age do you want to intend for them as well at the time i had no idea like who they were and i was like yeah of course let's do it and that was again like a really big milestone in terms of like being in industry like working for these artistic legends but again just proving my value and impact and proving why i deserve to be here i can be here you should use my skills in my mind to improve what you're doing essentially so for me design and creativity has always been a very sort of selfless thing essentially it's like i have these abilities and it's up to the people around me whether it may be gilbert and george or microsoft to say we want to tap into that we want to use your abilities to improve what we're doing and it's a case where yeah sure if the price is right then absolutely absolutely tap into me like use me you know whether it's mckinsey or nike or whatever and that's my thing as creatives as well essentially is that we're just vessels that companies and firms it tap into for our style and our flair you've had a very specific artistic style right and and like i've tapped into that i've seen the value you've been able to make like even you developing your books as well again showcasing that value like in book format which inspired me a great deal to start writing or thinking about things beyond just being a designer essentially that was a start to thinking bigger in terms of okay we're designers our voice can't just begin and end in behance there's more we can do there's other ways we can inspire folks and make an impact go direct to consumer in different ways you know and resource share the impacts and learning and that that's always been my idea that's how more can we reach people and how more can we be that vessel which is the reason why i've always wanted to work for the biggest company in the world.

41:53I don't know how, but my new one day, it's going to happen. It was just eventually, the time was going to happen because I wanted to be, I think you mentioned this as well, and it's something that I say, I always want to be at the forefront of where the greatest change is happening. So at the time, the NAKQA, the Nike running app, biggest thing in the world at the time. Then the McKinsey, design and business, built this changing world in so many ways. Then the Microsoft, The way I went to Microsoft was because they acquired a startup called Flipgrid that was a teaching learning app at the time during the pandemic.

42:29That's when I joined during the pandemic. This particular app could be what? Because of the fact that remote learning, teaching was the go-to thing that time, that summer. And they got like an insane influx of users and they needed some new designers to go and work on that. so i worked on the camera and the actual main experience of the particular app itself and then afterwards i then sort of transitioned into other parts of microsoft as well before landing like in the air department two years ago and i've been here ever since but essentially no matter and even after microsoft whatever happens after that i think something to say is that i always want to be like a front line of designing creativity where the biggest change the biggest revolution the biggest disruption that's happening is where i want to be because i feel like that's where the most interesting part is and that's what i want to give my services and like a skill set as much as i can essentially so yeah that's been my philosophy as well it's very good sam it's very good and i kind of the reason why i wanted to ask you about is there someone for you has there been someone for you but it sounds like you had you have encountered an interesting bunch of people to show you the way and they were generous with their energy and this is i feel like potentially could have been one of the inspirations because when you talked about akqa you said i was on the top of the mountain but being at the forefront of the pack is like you there's more space to there's more space to breathe there's more space to move because you might be taking yourself to unknown territories but ultimately it's you who chooses to do that because when you were talking about it it made me think of like cyclic analogies when you've got the lead riders are usually the front of the peloton because whatever kicks off they're less likely to get taken down by the crash behind them so that's why you stay in the front because you have to work harder while you're at the front and that's what matters more the way we've joined these dots together today is remarkable because the amount of generosity and good value in what you're creating is it's a story of its own this is why i wanted to highlight your story about how you go from one thing to another because you want to be in those rooms because you you strive and you adapt and you reconfigure your retool your skill set and go hey i can change with the things that i am because you could have easily stuck it mentioned behind and i remember your phone releases it could have been there and there try to launch a foundry and now complain about the fact i have everyone steals the font and no one wants to pay for it and this is this and this is that but i feel like the ability to speak different design languages of different creative languages is what provides the longevity and also asserts you as a person of influence with your voice and with your philosophies of how actually we can all succeed based on taking your tribe so i did say that i'm going to put you up on the fact that you said we can create magic with ai so now you work at Microsoft on the back of Flipgrid that we've got inquired by Microsoft.

45:30It's just something that, yeah, I guess you couldn't really plan for. You're like, ah, now we're with Microsoft. But your world has changed. And I feel like everything that you've been telling me so far, and obviously the life that you lived creatively and professionally, how did it come about? And how did you find yourself working, yeah, as I said, at the beginning, on one of the biggest software companies in the world, at the forefront of working on a co-pilot and other AI products? it's been a very interesting journey in sense of i think like i mentioned yeah like i always saw myself being like a accompaniment with this eventually maybe not in this way maybe like in another way maybe but we're always like in the plan somehow to be like in the driver's seat to the point that you made as well of being at the front as well it is scary especially now that we're here in the AI era leading the charge as it were being one of the handful of designers that are in charge of creating these experiences millions of people use every single day that are shaping this era essentially of AI or stepping into like it's a lot of responsibility to understand just what we're doing like in the impact that we're making in terms of no longer am I just developing posters for the BFI and now we're shaping just how users are interacting with technology and shaping their entire lives like my first taste of that was an aka QA and that's the reason why I always go back to that and say I can make an influential poster like an influence of a few thousand people or I can make an influential app like an influence of a billion people and that that was what again made me realize okay eventually i'll get to the point where i am doing something along these lines designing for a co-pilot but but now that we're here yeah it's a real challenge to actually fit those shoes and actually take it on i can do it right there's a lot of morality thinking as well is this the right thing to do it's the right way to do it And I think more than anything, I'm always just thinking about the user, what they need in the current moment in time, what makes their sort of experience as beneficial and useful as possible.