Dare to start with an audience of one - Malika Favre & George Wu

24:07Malika Favre:We were suddenly giving more exposure to someone doing something very cool for the past 30 years and getting very little recognition from it at the other corner of the world. And I think this is when we started really getting a kick out of it as well and feeling that we were being good actors in that space, which also means we were being very poor.

24:29George Wu:but yeah i have to say it goes to that warm to death phrase from simon sinek people don't care what you do people care why you do what you do and when you said you look being you meant you said exhausting in a way it is it shows the true curiosity of of how far you prepare to go to find information to celebrate someone to actually to appreciate what someone creates rather than going this is this is a press release this is going to be okay for us this is i think people can see beyond the bullshit the surface level promotion especially if it's a puff of a pr in a week or two it's surface people can see through it but what i can see from what you guys been doing you care about what goes on you care where it appears in the feed you care who's there and then you go deeper again i've used this phrase on a podcast for a long time but the phrase is the last mile is hardly ever crowded because not many people are prepared to go that far and you don't have to tell people about how much you care about craft because you show it to them like they can see that what you're creating and what makes you happy what makes you feel something it's presented on this and you know and that was i'm sure one of the reasons why it's grown so far and so fast now

25:47Malika Favre:And I think there is something also that I think is important to say is, for example, Instagram has changed a lot. Social media has changed a lot over the past decade. And I know that, for example, for my illustration career, social media did a lot for me. A lot of people reshared my work. That's how I became who I am. A lot of magazines reshared my work. The likes of Creative Review, It's Nice That. All this. Back then, you could send a cool project to a magazine and they would literally make a full-blown article about you. Today, that does not exist anymore. Everything is commodified. Nothing is for free anymore.

26:22Malika Favre:And social media, the feeds are also like this. Everything is sponsored. And that's also something we agreed on very early on with George. We don't want to be these guys. Maybe we can give exposure to these people. And we don't even tell them we're going to post them. We just post them, which is a little bit illegal. But then my thing was always like, if they want us to take it down, we'll take it down. But why would they? It's like we're literally celebrating them in a feed. And so I think in a way, it's also a little bit about, for me, about giving back and proving, maybe it's a bit of a lost battle, but proving that you can still be generous in this space and that creatives should be more generous with each other.

27:03Malika Favre:We decided very early on that we were not going to do sponsored posts, for example, so that if a brand contacted us, we were not going to post on the feed. We were not going to use our feed in that way. So that was something that was very clear early on, but also meant that we were never going to make money that way. And what started at the beginning as something that was taking an hour a day or something slowly grew into something. I think it's taking me like four or five hours a day now, so it's a bit insane. I have to admit that I did put my illustration career a little bit on hold for the past year.

27:37Malika Favre:I did. I had to. It's like at some point I couldn't do everything, but I was lucky enough that I had a very good first decade of work. I'm lucky that I can take fewer projects and I still can live. And for me, that was a necessary sacrifice. But also after, I think it was after four years, we started talking with George about how do we somehow make this viable? Because this is insane. There is a moment where it's just becoming a bit mad. And so that's when we started to think about making a shop, almost like a curated concept store. We asked our audience, we did a survey. We really bounced around a lot of ideas like doing an archive of all our curation, maybe doing subscription.

28:20Malika Favre:We really talked about all these options and landed on this idea of a shop. And also we were lucky enough last year to get commissioned by an auction house in Paris to curate for them. So for us, even though we were sharing that on the feed, the fact we accepted, we said yes, and there was a budget for it. We said yes, because we had complete carte blanche and it was about curating. So we didn't feel it was someone buying our audience to push a product. They were literally not telling us what to put. We were selecting seven objects a month and we did that for six months, I think. It was really amazing.

28:58Malika Favre:And I think without Francois and Drouot, that client, we could never have built a shop. So we use that budget to literally build the whole shop and get it kicking off. So we didn't take external investment. We paid our sum very little last year from that. So this is like a drop in the ocean. And now we're trying this format where we have a curated bazaar. We partner with brands. It's completely free for them to join. And when they sell something through us, we get a commission. so we tried also we really wanted to have a model that was fair on both sides it's not sustainable yet so we'll see but that's our best attempt of making it a little bit viable and allowing us to

29:44George Wu:continue i just want to add we don't do the classic sponsored posts because in they send us pictures and we just post those but we have done like almost like more collaborations if we really like a product then we'll create some content for them and that has been really fun as well however i think even i guess our whole thing with this feed and the way that we're going about the shop and how do you monetize it is very much about experimentation see which one works what works with the audience so we have done maybe slightly more classic sponsored posts in the past where and this is why we decided they don't work because if the product isn't something that the audience would really resonate with then it just doesn't work however when we get to do our own take on it and it does better the druar stuff has been amazing because it's what we do already we're just instead of curating things that we find we get to go into this crazy antiques world and find incredible old masters we were never allowed to show picasso paintings but they were there, all the way to Four Nazetti cat bins, for example.

30:53George Wu:And it was like a such different place for us to go on personally as well. I've never really delved into the world of antiques before. Super interesting. So I guess it's now we're really interested in collaborations, meeting new partners that would like to try something else, not your classic sponsored post, if that makes sense. Yeah.

31:13Malika Favre:And let us curate. I think curation for us is the backbone of this, is you have to let us dig and choose and build a story around it. And also what we did is we started a newsletter, which in a way is old school. But I think that also came at a moment where that's when we had the idea for the shop. And that's also when we had this feeling of, we don't know where Meta is going. We don't know where Instagram is going. We need to start having a presence outside, not be dependent on these big companies. And that's when we started doing newsletters, interviewing people and having our quirky tone. And so we've got this really fun interview.

31:52Malika Favre:Now we've got a new format where we dive into the story of an object from like first sketches and everything. And the brilliant thing is like the newsletter is growing slowly because we're not pushing it like crazy. And also we don't have anything to offer really apart from content. We don't have big discounts or things like this. But yeah, I think we're like on 7 ,000 people now. And what's great is that the response is amazing. So literally, we have like more than 70 % open rate on each issue. And I know that's like clearly a bit mad. But I think it's also in a way, it's like a continuation of the feed.

32:29Malika Favre:It's a space where we can have our tone, we can highlight products that are a little bit mad. I don't know. And I think it's interesting. We're trying to develop other editorial formats.

32:39George Wu:Malika I can tell you that there's a lot of marketeers running a newsletter who would kill

32:43Malika Favre:for 70 % open rate I know this is this is where the true metric really lies because the number

32:51George Wu:of subscribers doesn't really matter it's like how many people actually open this yeah that's the true metric again it just goes back to why you do this and how much you care because George am I right that this project also led you to developing your own product that you've created yeah I guess it's the inspiration behind it I think when COVID hit I have a lot of friends already that are illustrators or they're makers and I don't know if you remember that it was like this boom of everyone like okay let's just make something ourselves I'm obviously from a design background I always have to work with someone else's brief someone else's product and I just thought oh that'd be quite fun to make something myself and try and be one of those brands I I actually remember talking to you, Malika.

33:37George Wu:I made like a little deck of all the ideas that I had, was thinking about at the time and said, okay, as a business person, which one of these is actually going to make any kind of money? And she chose the umbrellas. I think that's the other thing that the feed is really amazing for is taking us on slightly different tangents. I would have never done the Birmingham talk before doing that feed, before doing it with Malik. She literally bullied me into doing that talk. I would have never really considered doing this podcast or even potentially creating my own version of interviews. I didn't really see myself in that way.

34:20George Wu:And I think now it's okay. We have a following where we are curators, where people are interested in the kind of things that we're interested in. that's just a whole other space for me. And Malika, I'm sure the same for you too. Even the idea like something else that we're talking to people about is creatively collaborating with people's products, coming together in terms of in our own artistic way rather than just curating. So there's a lot of different avenues that we can go down, which is super exciting. I discovered your Farrah world, and I love her insights bringing joy to bad weather because I worked with Timo Kildo on my last two books.

34:59George Wu:Timo is amazing. And I think soon after we released these two books, I saw the umbrella that you guys did together. I was like, oh, this is everything about Timo, right? Dogs, yellow, color, happiness. It's just, yeah, it was one of these things that I didn't know it was your project at that time and later joined the dots. And that makes so much sense because your statement, bringing joy to bad weather, It's bringing joy through everything that you do to any kind of situation. What I like about you that you said, I wouldn't do this because I needed Malika to push me into doing things. Because you've got very modest generosity in the way.

35:37George Wu:I'm doing this because I care, but let's not make it about me. Does that make sense? I think we're, as a couple, now we're going to psychoanalyze ourselves. Malika's obviously come from incredible success. She's a very successful creative. And I've come from a slightly different world where I can't remember what it's called, like the portfolio career. I've tried this. Maybe it hasn't worked out. Tried that. It hasn't worked out. So I haven't. I am definitely a creative that's come from a background of more anxiety, uncertainty of what it's like to be a major success. And so I think, yeah, it's been amazing to partner with someone that is just, come on, what's the matter with you?

36:20George Wu:Just do it. And I think I used to be like that maybe in my 20s. As I'm older, needing more security, I've gotten a bit more of the kind of fear to be brave. And I think when you do it as a two, it definitely helps because one of you can then go, no, it's great. Come on, let's keep going. and it feels like you're in it together when you have your own demons. I think I have more demons than Malika, for sure.

36:48Malika Favre:That's also why we get along so well. We have a lot in common and then we're very different. And in a way, I've always felt that it's much harder for people who are very disciplinary and want to touch, like you've got this breed of people like George, who want to touch everything. And when they do something, then they want to move on to something else. And so they keep trying techniques and mediums and formats. And so it's amazing creatively. Commercially, it's very difficult. For example, we all know that it has as frustrating as it is for some people. Being a successful illustrator also means having a very strong, recognizable style.

37:27Malika Favre:And how do you not get bored by yourself? So I think there is a thing when my nature is I'm a compulsive, addictive. I have an addictive personality. And I'm someone who is going to do the same thing for 10 years and still find joy in it. But if that's not your nature, then that's hell. That situation is hell. For me, I love pushing something by little incremental pivots. And I remember we had that conversation with George, and that's when I think it really defines us. It's such a brilliant definition of who we are. George wants to do things that are innovative and new. I want to make this thing that already exists perfect or better.

38:11Malika Favre:And I think these are two ways of being creative and approaching. My entire work is playing with cliches, with almost images you have in your subconscious, the collective mind, but making them so striking that you feel like you're seeing them for the first time. My work, my illustration work is not innovative. It's trying to reach that perfection. How perfect is that line?

38:35George Wu:That is beautifully said. I remember seeing some of your talks ages ago where, as a successful illustrator with a very distinctive style, you find yourself a little bit caged in. Some people can't stomach it because I remember, I think you said, the number of times that people asked me to do something different to what I do was maybe three or four times. Because you create the thing that makes money and it's very successful, but then that is that is your identity that is your craft that is your style and people come to you because that's they were malika but what i love what you said is that you're finally trying to make it perfect you're trying to find perfection in this you never find an end point to it because i have personally had so many incarnations of my career because i always find the end point i was like this was 10 years of this let's do something else this is 10 years of that let's do something as you overlap these things and you go very curious to take you because would you say in your case that doing this thing with george gave you a bit of a catalyst to not run out or burn out what you do even though you're not you might one day find it perfection in what you do your illustration style but did you find that working with george gave you extra energy and a view on creativity and expression of what you can do for the benefit of others i think the biggest thing i

39:49Malika Favre:learned as well is that the same as my work my taste i think was much more confined and was much more in line with my work when we started this project. So I was curating very graphic, very geometric, color blocking, stripes, all the things that you would expect for me to curate. And I think curating with George and seeing her post its absolutely bonkers things sometimes was in a way opened me up as well. And I think I embraced the whole spectrum of my own taste. And George was already doing that. And in a way, that's also when the account really took off. It's also when we were really like, we all have guilty pleasures.

40:32Malika Favre:I don't know why I find this beautiful, but it is, but it's not beautiful in the sense that some people might say, oh, that's on the line. We call it the line, actually. Did we cross the line on this? And I think this is what really made it, in a way, made it popular with people because I think we all have guilty pleasures and we all have seen that we find utterly beautiful that maybe not everyone would agree and this is part

40:58George Wu:of being human i have decoded this since we're doing the couples counseling here when you see the link between the work so what you said obviously you said about george that she's about a new the innovation and you said about a perfection when i look at the products and the things that you curate and put together on your store it's innovation and perfection because some of these things are classics and they're just taken to 11. So these things are just a perfection of this. I think I found this link between the two because where your worlds have overlapped and met, it's just, oh, incredible stuff happened and keeps happening.

41:35George Wu:That's how I see it. Would you agree? Yeah, for sure. That's very nicely put. And I think we should change our about on our website now because that makes way more sense. Okay.

41:43Malika Favre:So we're getting Hadim to rewrite our bio in concept.

41:48George Wu:absolutely manifesto who's a manifesto but first i have to appreciate your ticket that says everything everything everything everything i mean absolutely love it because i can when i read those words i hate underworld cowgirl everything everything oh really yeah yeah yeah i remember

42:02Malika Favre:the day we put that on the website and george she does she just did it actually today screenshotting something i wrote for the newsletter as like lol it's me it was me making like a really bad that ticket on the website was the same josh screenshot it and sent it to me and said lol and somehow we left it because it's funny it's perfect absolutely never change it we can work

42:28George Wu:on your bio but never change the ticket but actually speaking of the shop you guys mentioned obviously having some fund to to create it obviously putting the tech stuff together so what have you learned about putting an online store together let's talk about technical

42:43Malika Favre:headaches oh god so that was intense that was an intense year because we funded it but literally we did it ourselves so we had very little help my husband helped us a lot with putting the products up like we're talking we launched with like more than 300 products and i think there was like 80 brands and we had to contact every single brand individually so we're not drop shipping for a start, we're really leading people to the shops. So we don't hold customer data. We don't take orders. We're almost like linking almost in between women, like a directory, almost of beautiful objects. But that meant that we didn't want to use like Amazon, of course, obviously, or existing affiliate platform, because that would mean we would have the same things as anybody else.

43:34Malika Favre:And anyone can take our curation and put it on their website. So we actually found a model, a plugin, the technical setup to do something privately with all these brands. So we had to partner in email, video calls, explain the concept with all these 90 brands and then curate the products, put them up on the shop. It was a good, I would say, eight months of work. So that was really intense. And then we had a developer who helped us. But again, like I had to learn coding. I ended up learning Shopify liquid coding a little bit. just to tweak the little things and make it, it was a hell of a lot of work.

44:13Malika Favre:And it still is to run it. But what it means is that at least now we have a setup where it's pretty lean in terms of the monthly cost to keep it up because we do everything ourselves. So it's like a few apps, Shopify store, the right plugin, and then we can just put new products up very easily.

44:33George Wu:When it says everything, everything, When you said 300 products, that dick is right. It's everything, everything.

44:39Malika Favre:It's like everything, everything.

44:41George Wu:We were meant to have 30 brands, I remember. We had this original brainstorming meeting of, okay, we'll start small. Yeah, we'll start small.

44:50Malika Favre:And then it exploded. But because, again, I think it's also because when you do an outreach to brands and you ask them, do you want to be on this? And if you sell, you give us 20 % commission, blah, blah, blah. It's like we expected that one brand out of 10 would say yes. So we actually started the outreach pretty late, like in July, which is the worst time to do it, end of July. And we knew we wanted to launch maximum by October. So we really, we went wide. But the truth is that 60 % of the brands say yes. So we did not expect that. We were like, oh shit. And then once you've proposed, you've offered them to join, you can tell them no.

45:32Malika Favre:yeah so the last months were mad and i had to go on a one month break now in the winter because i was just like i need a rest that that ride since end of july till the launch in october was insane

45:45George Wu:so would you say that it sounds insane but again it shows the love and care that you guys put into it but would you say that everything that you've put into work on curating the feed on instagram help you to pre-select the brands actually go after the products that you loved already or did you search for new products because i feel like there was quite a lot on your feet already yeah i think it started a lot with everyone a lot of people that we already knew about right and then i think it's recently we've started like maybe this year we've started looking at new brands i think the thing we're learning about the most is what is selling what kind of things what price point and where in the world because that's the other problem not problem but the thing that we have is the global directory so sadly in the uk we're bound by eu and also the american tariffs like got so many restrictions of who actually uk brands can sell to and the same for anyone selling in europe trying to oh no specifically like in asia trying to sell to america that's a whole problem as well.

46:55George Wu:So it was like making sure that we had a good spread for our audience. Our audience is, correct me from Romalika, one third US, one third Europe, and then...

47:07Malika Favre:Yeah, 50 % Europe, if we... I always include you guys in Europe.

47:11George Wu:Oh, thank you. We're still there. Thank you. You're still there. 30 % US, 50 % Europe, and then the rest of the world. So we had to make sure that people in the US had something to buy people in europe had something to buy and then obviously like we've got really lovely like people customers in japan and australia but they were smaller so it's all again things that we're learning i know malik is so into the analytics i love it like again making it perfect so she knows where everyone's clicking and what people are clicking on and i think it's just constantly trying to optimize this thing but it's hard we have to admit it's a very tough

47:52Malika Favre:financial model. It always was. I knew that from the start. Affiliate linking is very tough. And the truth is that we don't know if it's going to work. We can only try our best. The only thing I would say that anyone landing on the shop loves it. All we got was compliments, was like, oh my God, what is that crazy selection? But there is also, we didn't want to limit ourselves to start with. So that's also why we had like kid stuff. And then we also have like outliers. We've got dildos and bongs. It's a statement. We needed dildos on that shop. And then we also have a lot of homeware, then art.

48:30Malika Favre:We've got price point going from£10 to £10 ,000. So we almost went a little bit nuts on the launch. But I always find in general that it's better to go with everything and then you refine. And it might be a case that at some point we realize actually we're more of a homeware concept store and as much we would love to keep all of that in but also we need to see what works and not to confuse people too much and I think also what's hard with what we curate is that every piece is so special how do you choose it's literally if you put a really bold orange thing in the middle of gray stuff everyone will go buy that orange thing.

49:14Malika Favre:Now, if everything is gorgeous and everything is intense, how do you choose? And I think people love looking at our store, but I think we can definitely improve on the buying and we want to do well by our brands. But the great thing is that because it's risk-free for them, they don't have anything to lose.

49:36George Wu:This is what I wanted to say, because when you think about If you follow a fashion brand or any retail brand, their website changes three times a year. It's a constant evolution of understanding of the eye tracking, user experience, what, where, how, because you describe it. If something's orange in the middle of gray, of course people will go there. Because that leads me to a question, Malika, since you are over the analytics and understanding, because you guys have a potentially very clear idea of what sells in a vast number of products. Do you get approached for consultancy, data or questions about product development from these brands?

50:14George Wu:We had actually a brainstorming session with a good friend of ours who was trying to help us what our future is. And when we did the survey, that did come up, remember? It's like trend forecasting. Yeah, there's lots of different avenues. This is, again, where I'm going to get into trouble and get unstuck because, yeah, I like the new thing. So I try not to think about it. Just concentrate on the shop. be a bit more blinkered because when you think about innovation and perfection like so many ideas so many people create products because they believe in them because they care and the difference between being successful or not sometimes is patience sometimes is algorithm sometimes is the trend sometimes if we were to only create because it would work we will create very few things and they will look all shit because they'll be just not made for the mass market but the quirky things the amazing things the products filled with souls sometimes you can potentially help someone's career by just saying hey you just need this or this works or that works that's the size that's the thing because i think with your insights it potentially can help because you've created this amazing platform where you know their passion meets the reality for me that's one of my

51:23Malika Favre:biggest contradiction i struggle with that as well because i think the people who need our help the most can't pay us. And for me, that's, I think, sometimes I really wish I won the lottery or I inherited millions from a long lost uncle from somewhere and could focus on doing this and helping the people who really need it, the craftspeople. And I think what we're very good at is how to present a product visually, tell the story behind it, all this content as well. And I almost think that it's a tough moment for retail. It's a tough moment for makers. You have all these people who were selling incredibly well through Instagram and now nothing is coming their way because the algorithm cut it.

52:15Malika Favre:And for example, one thing I saw that was nuts, it's when we started posting in December, there was no way to reach our audience. No way. Because the landscape was filled with ads. So literally, everything we did was organic. So we rely on, yeah, that explore feed, the algorithm pushing us. And literally, it's like the algorithm is pushing us when it's a low moment for ads and brands are not investing that much. As soon as brands are putting the money in, we disappear. We go behind the curtain and no one shows what we have to offer. And that's what I'm struggling with. we live in a world where money wins and the more investment wins and our biggest challenge is going to be how can we make these smaller people win who do amazing things and still win ourselves it's going to be very difficult when you said the people who need our help potentially under

53:09George Wu:people who can afford us i'm going to badly paraphrase debbie millman who said money is never about money when you realize there's a help what you guys potentially can do or when you put yourself in the position of a creative and i know it from writing books and trying to solve people's problems because it's not meant to do people will only admit when they've got a problem when it clicks when you realize you know what i've tried every single way of taking my own path and some people are taking shortcuts or some people are getting help to get there the penny drops at some point sometimes the penny drops very late but it drops at some point in the future it does because we are here to help each other to thrive we mostly survive but we're here to survive and thrive And I think to be able to look into what can make business successful, you started your illustration career by you want to be in yourself.

53:58George Wu:But obviously you also validated that there's a space in the market for someone. There's this, you know, creating something that somebody else. So I think that generosity that you put into everything that you do, I think is going to unlock some people's amazing futures and successes. Because as I said, as we said throughout this conversation, you do it from the point of care, from the point of curiosity. and you can never fake this. This is the beautiful part because why would you spend a year building a bazaar? Why would you spend years doing this? Because you care, because it's there. So when people try, sometimes when people are trying to introduce themselves and say, this is what I do and this is why I do it, you don't always believe them.

54:37George Wu:Whereas people can open your feed, open your store. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

54:42Malika Favre:What's interesting as well is, I remember when we were doing the website with George, we talked about, do we put a manifesto? Do we talk about why we do what we do? And then we decided not to. We shouldn't be saying anything. We both felt what we are about is there. If someone wants to look, it's very obvious. It's in the tone. It's in the way we talk about people. And I think, yeah, no one, in the end, it wasn't needed. It wasn't needed to, and maybe one day we will explain it, but I always find it more interesting to explain it on podcasts or interviews, but to not brag about things because I think everyone brags a lot.

55:24Malika Favre:And a lot of it is a lot of bullshit.

55:26George Wu:That's exactly one of the reasons why I wanted to have you guys on the podcast. After seeing your tour beautifully, eloquently describing what you do with so much passion, I was like, let's bring it to more people, that reason why you do it. But before I let you go, where do you see the not so distant future of what you guys do? I know is there do you see anything in the way of trends in the way of your work yeah what can we find out I think we both have a desire to explore the editorial side of things at the immediate future Malik has already mentioned the evolution of the newsletter which is you're being quite modest by the way about the newsletter I think 7000 is quite a lot considering you've not been doing it for crazy long time but yeah again like expanding on when you have a post is so visual people don't really read the captions sometimes what i do love about posts is that you can have a bit more of a dialogue with the audience themselves so i think expanding a bit more of that kind of interaction is where we're going right now more with the brands i would like to say like individuals that are behind these brands behind the stories of what makes them tick also the audience themselves again doing things like this podcast doing the newsletter doing more interviews longer formats just to see it almost feels like the community is the thing and i know a lot of brands talk about our community but we have quite an engaged one so we just want to learn more about them and have that more like because everyone seems very positive at the moment on our feed and it's nice to engage with them and see like why do they come and what are they into not just ourselves.

57:06George Wu:Sorry, I'm rambling there.

57:09Malika Favre:And potentially, maybe we're already talking about doing some exclusive products, maybe some limited edition runs with some of our favorite makers and brands. I think we're taking it one month at a time and trying to not run five things at once, also because it's only three of us with Vladi. But I think we'll go way it takes us and where it makes the most sense. And I think the goal is to not be forced into something, a space we don't want to be in. So I think so many things that are possible. Yeah, pop-ups, curating for brands, consulting. I think we could even be social media consultants today.

57:51Malika Favre:But all these things, it's organic. I think we'll take any opportunities as they come, but trying to stay very strong to our ethos and not forget why we started it and why we're doing it.

58:02George Wu:You just summarized it beautifully. We'll go where it takes us. I wrote a little piece of paper. Because the thing is, you can have a strategy, you can have plans, but if you've got values and a willingness to pursue them and explore them, that aids any business plan for breakfast. So I'm so happy we got to make this happen and to recreate almost your talk. And yeah, celebrate what you guys do because it's incredible. I can't wait to see what happens next. So thank you for being here.

58:29Malika Favre:Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting us.

58:42George Wu:thank you for listening to this episode of daring creativity podcast i'd love to know your thoughts questions and suggestions so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels this episode was produced and presented by me radin malinage the audio production was done by Nir Makai from 7 Million Bags Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design.

59:19George Wu:Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle including an e-book and audio book to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10 % of your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.