Dare to trust your creative soul - Johanna Augustin

0:04Why is it a new product that you can buy?

0:09Because for me, I love that. It's passion, it's confidence, it's something disruptive, it's something that someone is standing for and I would buy that 100 % every day compared to the data. And this is also what we, in a solid way, are kind of creating and helping our clients with Because, of course, we must lean into data to help our client to prove a point to a shareholder audience or what have you. But without the passion, without looking into the forefront, without the disruptiveness, there's nothing. So passion is everything. And we're even speaking about growth through creative relevance.

0:57So it all has to be there.

1:04Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

1:53Today I'm speaking with Joanna Augustin, CEO of Pond Design, one of Sweden's most innovative packaging design studios. In our conversation, we covered a wide range of moments that have shaped her life and career so far. We talked about the Stockholm School of Economics, interior design, business strategy and even generation alpha and unboxing rituals. all of them culminating in her current role and experience. Joanna chooses her creative passion over data-driven presentations. She genuinely cares about making daily moments happier through design, and her mission is to push clients towards proactive sustainability before regulations for solutions.

2:33It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Joanna Augustin.

2:44hey joanna so great to see you how are you doing i'm good so nice to see you how are you it's so great to have you here because i want to talk about what you do i want to talk about the world of packaging innovation design stockholm sweden all of that stuff so let's get into it For those who have never heard of Joanna Augustin or Pond Design, how would you introduce yourself, please? So I'm the CEO of Pond Design. We're based in the middle of Stockholm and we've been around for like more than 20 years now. I've been working together with a lot of my colleagues here for a very long time. And yeah, and I'm not a designer from start.

3:27I'm actually, I'm not a creative. I'm or I'm a creative soul, but not from education. I went to Stockholm School of Economics. So, yeah, the equivalent of Oxford or Cambridge in the Nordics. And then I started to study business and economics. And then after a while, after six months already, I felt like, what am I doing here? 21 years old and is this life speaking about stock markets and legislations and micro and economics and then I was like there's more to life so I actually got a job at an interior design firm with an architect so I can go on and linger here for a long time pursuing my career and then with joining an interior design studio.

4:22And at that time, in the early 2000s in Stockholm, this was with Peter Hallen, so part of a team of super talented, creative people who put Sweden on the map from an interior and architecture point of view. And I was completely blown away. And then after a while, I went back to Stockholm School of Economics and finish my studies. But it was kind of the start of a long career working very, very closely with designers. So I've got questions about exactly every single step. Why Stockholm School of Economics? Why did you decide to study? And what drove you to it? And then how did you then decide that interior design or working with interior design is the next step?

5:12Because I like that you said, I'm 21 years old. I don't want to talk about stock market and microeconomics. I love that because you said you're a creative soul. But how do we trace those two decisions? Like first one to jump in, to do it, start studying, realizing there might be too much to suit to grow up this early and to know too much about economics. And the interior designer, like where's the passion? Where did it come from? So two different questions, masters one. When you're 20, you're completely lost, right? So what do you want to do? You don't have a clue. You don't have a clue what's out there.

5:46You don't have a clue actually about the creative industry in particular. I'd say that's very common because it's quite untangible in a way. It's very easy to picture how a doctor or a nurse is working or a teacher that's close to your heart when you're 21. But why Stockholm School of Economics? In Sweden, we have a very democratized school system. So it's amazing for people. It's up to you. And then you can study and it doesn't cost you anything. And then you get financial aid from the government. Nevertheless, how poor rich you are, everyone is kind of picking up on that. So it's amazing, an amazing country from that point of view.

6:32So why Stockholm School of Economics? It's actually because I'm a very ambitious person, sometimes too ambitious. So I actually graduated with top grades. I had top level grades in everything from the start of the school to the end of the school. So and the Stockholm School of Economics, together with becoming a doctor, is the hardest place to get into. They take in like 300 students each year. and then it was like oh it's the best let's go there because i can't i can't be a doctor i faint when i see blood would you say that was driven because you said you were when you're 20 you feel lost and you don't know what to do so obviously this sounds like there's a prestige you said you were ambition was that decision driven by you was it parenting sort of decisions yes and no i think i mean of course my parents been applauding me from first grade and been always very proud of me and my achievements, et cetera, et cetera.

7:35So they always have been, and still are my biggest supporters. And my mother is following us at Pond on Instagram and like, oh, how's about the award? How did it go? Et cetera, et cetera. So it's really nice. And it's an interesting question because where is the drive coming from? Because now today I have two daughters and they're soon 14 and 10 years old so how much should I as a parent push my kids and how much for me it's been it's coming from me always and then my parents have supported me and my dad always helped me with homework and the day before a test and of course they were positive of me going to Stockholm School of Economics but didn't matter that much I could have pursued anything else as well and they would have been I mean maybe not becoming something very very creatively and like fluid as parents do they want their kids very often to do something a bit solid probably but it's actually it's coming from myself I'd say but then I didn't really understand what I got myself into at high school I studied a lot of languages and then some extra math.

8:53So yeah, and that was voluntarily. But I studied Latin for crazy many hours. Very strange. And then why and did it help me? And then today I do a lot of strategic work with finding brand names for companies. So my Latin is actually helping me every day. Who could have known? it's those building blocks that we sometimes see as a burden at that time and can feel like where am i heading but it all comes to beautifully to the place where it manifests itself as the multiples of ideas and multiples of knowledge and wisdom that can be applicable to what you do now with your clients what i wanted to still find out like how did you then remember when you were learning latin for till early hours of the morning you were thinking i'm gonna go and work for the interior design studio.

9:43I'm going to do that. I've always also like, because I'm, even though I'm very ambitious and I set my goals and then I really want to achieve them, my drive, it's coming from a very passionate point of view. So I do think due to passion, because it's fun, because I can't resist because I love it. And all the aesthetic, the interior design, the feeling in a space has always been a huge passion for me. I was reading my mother's interior magazines like when I was eight years old and kind of envisioning my house. And also design and fashion has always been something that I find also very easy to understand if I like it.

10:26So I have a lot of confidence when it comes to fashion and design. And it's part of being a happy human being, I'd say same as reading a beautiful book or a film that that makes you feel something so for me I feel something when I enter a space with a thought through design I wanted to ask you where does the ambition come from but you just literally answered that question is it comes from the feel like I want to literally you want to feel something therefore you go after that thing I love it I absolutely love it haven't thought about it but I love oh yeah maybe yeah Yeah, sounds, yeah. I mean, I'm trying to join the dots because what you're describing, it feels, well, obviously, it feels almost obvious that the surroundings that you live in or the magazines you were reading.

11:17But when I think about interior design, it's like the number of elements is limited, right? You can make a room busy. We can make a room minimal. But you're always working with certain limitations or certain sort of certain resources. And I think there's something so... beautifully magical about the fact like how you can put something like this together you can inspire everyone walking in a room you can inspire everyone buying a piece of furniture like it's almost universal language of course people will love it people will hate it people will choose a or b or some people will go to ikea you know to glue the mdf together when you think about like economics in the way of the logic how it works and then interior design i see those two as connected because you go limited number of resources with the number of elements that sort to play together and sometimes in those elements like the creativity is an option because you know you can add it to the mix so what was it like to realize in there you know let's leave the microeconomics and stock market aside for a minute and actually work with the people who are put in sweden on the map with their design skills in interior design what was that like what was that feel when you walk into that studio and start working with them but remember i was 21 but it It was like a feeling of like, now my life is starting.

12:35So a very like inspiring environment and kind of everything is possible. And finally, after all those years in school, I'm at an exciting place. So yeah, a bit of that. And also feeling of kind of finding, you know, when you find your style and like, oh, this is, you find a puzzle in building your personality. personality so the year before I moved to France and lived there and I've always loved France and Italy as well and been living in those countries back and forth but I never found it was first here in Stockholm actually in the same office building where we are right now so the circle eight years ago it was kind of coming to a loop but it was a feeling of yes satisfaction and excitement there was a guest called Karina Lindmayer on the show an early part of the season and she said it was like coming home coming to your creative home like when you discover makes you feel alive you feel like you've come to your creative home what you're describing it kind of feels doubly right of like okay you've come to your creative home you've come to your life's home like you come to your sort of home of your soul by saying yeah you know we feel like my life is starting now which i mean to be honest 21 the way we feel sensations for the first time is irreplicable because you can't replicate it later on in life like whatever we do for the first time that moment and stay with us for the rest of our lives.

14:01So I'm so happy that that happened for you. It's got you on the path where you are now. But you did, as you say, you did a sort of loop-de-loop, my favorite phrase at the moment, loop-de-loop, by actually going back to SSE and finishing your studies. What did you do after you finished your studies? Where did you go next?

14:19Johanna Augustin:We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lax Coffee Co., The first creative speciality coffee company, building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lax Coffee Co. offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins, coffee hardware and accessories, along with exceptional apparel at laxcoffee.co.uk. You can use the code PODCAST to get 15 % off your first order.

15:09I started, or it was actually at the same time as I was studying, because at the end of my studies, I joined a marketing program initiated by a professor called Michael Dalleen, And he's now one of very few professors in wellness, welfare and happiness in the world. And he was very different from all of the other professors. He was wearing also back in that time, black nail polish and the rock and roll of marketing within a very conservative context. So he was kind of the first glimpse of opening up my eyes of how I could, where I could fit in. Since I'm also when I worked at this architect and interior studio, I'm not a designer.

16:05I wasn't a designer there as well and never wanted to be either. So with the help of Michael Dallin, I kind of found my space in the world, the intersection between strategy, growth and creativity. and that's where yeah and that kind of space has followed me throughout my career so yeah tell me about the first time you met michael tilly i'm interested about him i've never heard of him and i want to know that feeling so we're talking about pretty much if you just realized we're talking about the first you talk about deciding to study latin studying doing things for the first time going to italy for the first time walking into interior design and architecture studio for the first time what was it like to meet him for the first time because you said He opened up a vision that you didn't know potentially could be that.

16:52Yeah. He's amazing. You have to meet him. He's very human in his way. He's very open about good things and bad things. He's an economic professor filled with tattoos. I entered a course with him. We were 10 people that he and his colleague took in. And we had a very, very intensive time of looking at the world of business from a different perspective and angle with a more creative mindset. So he kind of made me start thinking in a creative manner instead of in an Excel sheet manner, if I may, or statistic manner. So opened my eyes to strategic creative thinking, which for me is very, very different.

17:39And this is what I do together with my team. Nevertheless, if there are copywriters, designers or brand strategists, we need to think in a creative, strategic way. Otherwise, we're never relevant. And then we could go home doing what we do. Let's fast forward to where you are today, because you are beautifully putting all of these dots together. You're describing them and joining them together. Because throughout the process of writing this book, there or forever. I've been very much looking into the function of our brain. How do we understand what we do, who we are, what we've been given and how to make sense of it because we have got dictionary.

18:20Like we've decided that there's a meaning to certain word. Let's talk about Latin again. Then we've got societal meanings and then we've got personal meanings of certain words and actions, right? So let's take a creativity. There's a dictionary meaning. Societal meaning is millions of different meanings because it's driven by people. like how they see creativity for themselves. You know, some of the most creative people are not working in the creative industry. Some of the most creative people with the best ideas are potentially, I'm not going to say accountants, but I would sound wrong. But, you know, there might be people who are solving complicated problems and then there's the visual side, the written side and that kind of side.

18:53And it's driven by two sides of the brain function. We've got a default mode network, which is the daydreaming, the ideas, the creativity, and then we've got executive network mode, which is validating what we create. So when I put it in the side of like, okay, so there's your studio, you've got your creatives, that default, and then you do executive thinking because we need the riot to be started by someone. But then a few days later, we need someone to actually put a strategic thinking on this going, lovely idea, let's make it work. And I think what you're describing, I think through the ways of how you arrive at this stage, it's fascinating because sometimes data to creators can feel like the enemy.

19:35you know sometimes the strategy can feel like the enemy like we have gone through the age of innocence where anything goes and you know random stuff can be anything we made it work whereas now in the more strategic world when it's let's be honest driven more by shareholders price it's driven more by logic driven by data you can find the innocent in rebellious idea and then sort of tagging them onto the strategy because if we start you know with the executive mode first we will never get anywhere fun yeah maybe that's my obviously understanding right now but how did you find yourself at pond and how did you get to learn that what you know and what you do and how you think can be of benefit to creative people and the studio per se i think from what you were saying like all this insights all of this data i'm thinking of a project that we did for a startup company very very interesting run by a team of engineers connected to the royal engineering academy and they found a way on how to grow herbs and salads in a very sustainable system and they were really onto something and investors were throwing money at them and they had come to a point where they had a produce being started to grow but they didn't know how to present it to people or explain it and they had so much data they had like We started working together and they gave us, and I'm not kidding, like thousands of documents that some of them we flipped through.

21:10Some of them we couldn't understand any at all. And then we were like, we were having like this anxiety, stress and a feeling of like being drowning in this super complex world of how they were growing these. And then all of a sudden, after a couple of weeks, one of us in the team were saying like, but they're like doing superhero herbs. And they were like, oh, we have it. so but without all of that drowning in data we would maybe not have found that one direction that helped us to do something that actually became fun and understandable in in the context of a super busy super busy food store so sometimes i think or as we work we need to dig through those piles of analysis and sometimes with our mindset and this is also something that Mikkel Dallé and my old professor taught me sometimes looking at things from another angle is giving you the whole kind of reason why in a new way so that's something we work with every day and this this how we as a design studio are looking at our projects and how we solve it in the context of today and with the history of a certain brand finding that thing that...

22:45Yeah, we also did a project a long time ago with gloves, understanding how to design gloves for carpenters, for electricians, for this and that type of work. And we understood that different people, different skill sets work differently with their left and right glove so instead of just doing a similar pair of gloves we sold in the idea to sell single gloves so you could not waste an entire pair of glove but buy one instead save the save money and save material etc and also kind of fine-tune it as you wish and this was a long time ago before all the sneakers personalization as a threat that we were first i love that i love that and you said it beautifully said it's different angle seeing things from a different angle because it's like how do you step out from the situation from the problem and see it from you know elevated position and say okay what is the actual real problem so with pond design you guys talk a lot about actual innovation like how do you look forwards to the future when did you landed on this to be one of the pillars of what you do that people need to know the fact what you're capable of and actually that innovation is a crucial part of the work yeah i think we've had it with us from the start and also with pond design compared to some other studios that has the last name of one founder we're more of a collective we don't have one creative vision we have several and it's also coming from that we are very insight driven in curious on innovation we're looking into the next we're looking into solving a problem with the help of creativity but not from a functional perspective because i do agree with what you said earlier that if personally i would go for that person who said this is the best because I say so.

24:50Because for me, I love that. It's passion. It's confidence. It's something disruptive. It's something that someone is standing for. And I would buy that 100 % every day compared to the data. And this is also what we, in a solid way, are kind of creating and helping our clients with. Because, of course, we must lean into data to help our client to prove a point to a shareholder audience or what have you. But without the passion, without looking into the forefront, without the disruptiveness, there's nothing. So passion is everything. And we're even speaking about growth through creative relevance.

25:37So it all has to be there, I think. I love your answer. and you're right hopefully i didn't make the person with the passionate sort of self-initiated idea you know was the one that i didn't think was right but the reason why we talk about data i want to bring something a bit of an insight recent insight into the world of packaging the world of retail and how it all works in through really sort of forensic data so i work with a non-profit organization called future of food and they create these events for food innovators for from technology to health to you know to other sort of areas and i wish i could remember all five of them and what they do they run a competition where people can sign up it's a bit like dragon's den or shark tank versus ted talk so you want to put your startup in the spotlight and say how much you actually creating something towards the future of food and you can imagine that people who make the competition out of let's say 250 entries there's a 16 finalists most of them are quite well refined you know they've already had some traction potentially some sort of retail success and their work is often very very good part of the competition has got talks by you know specialists and luminaries and there was a person called miranda ballard from nielsen iq nielsen iq is a company that knows every single detail of the product that's been scanned in a supermarket so they know everything they've been running a long term of research from families that literally scan every single product so what Nielsen IQ has got they've got data of what people buy and how they buy it so what they do they work forensically with the retailers and they work on the positioning of like how do you get people to buy into different products new products now how they know for example they know to the millimeter like how much of the rum and coke let's say JD and coke how what's the formula how big the logo needs to be like everything is driven by so much data are and then you get a person with an idea like hey i'm gonna create a peanut butter cups with no sugar and i'm gonna do because i believe in it and then you realize okay where do the worlds collide when do these two worlds collide because you can only get as far until you find yourself in a competition with a multinational corporation who's got all of that data at their disposal and this is the reality of like at what point do we need to compromise at what point do we find a new status quo because i think the independents have created so much disruption in packaging and branding because they could do whatever they wanted to do rather than being told by data what they need to do so i hope i haven't lost you with all of this but how do you see that on your side with the projects that you do like how much of it is innocence and how much of it is reality but to me i think it's important that both coexists in a way and this is like from the food industry it's interesting to see what's happening right now that food begin on a macroeconomics level in a way food it's too cheap i mean it's a stupid saying but you get what you pay for and we pay enough for the food that we consume.

28:54And it's sad that in some countries it's cheaper to buy a soda than water. But what we see in Sweden from a local point of view, for me in Stockholm, we have a few different big grocery chains, exactly like you have in the UK or as in France, etc etc but now we also see the start of a kind of anti big grocery chain revolution with the new co-op starting up looking into the ingredients in the bread making sure that it's made from sustainably farmed with nutritional higher value etc etc so we have one initiative from a baker in Stockholm now opening up chains like this. And you have several organic initiatives in the UK.

29:47And then also what we see then working with a lot of big A brands and also with private label food brands, FMCG, they also pick up on these trends. So amplifying the trends. So if you have a positive view on the future, those small local initiatives are also picked up by the huge big corp because there's value in it it's the same like what's been going on with the organic something that was quite unusual at a big shop 20 years ago is now standard so i have a very positive thing with a positive view in the future when it comes to food i think that we learn a lot we want to with the longevity trend we want to live longer we want to be healthier and then we need to do something about the food we consume and and make sure that it has yeah that it's actually healthy and beneficial both from our body point of view but also from a global point of view what you're describing and what makes me think about it is the passion and data.

31:01So with the passion and the data, when you think about it, like we can make better choices and be funded by VCs who are actually looking to create a sustainable future. Because when we look back at some point and realize that, okay, well, some people got really rich, some stuff worked, you know, pensioners were putting money into these really rich VC companies because they were, again, you know, working for the shareholders price, not necessarily for the benefit. And we can ask ourselves, was it all worth it? Because yes, you got your three pound chicken, but in the process, somebody had to really potentially suffer, like something had to go a different way.

31:38So I think the signaling of the future, I think, is very interesting of what we could do and how we potentially influence stuff. Because if the food was expensive, would it be less wasted? Would we actually treasure it more? Are we living in the world of abundance before something happens and realizing, sorry, this got quite heavy quite quickly. all the world but how does this sort of future of food future of planet influence the brands that you work with like what's what sort of conversations you might be having with your clients and partners yeah this is i mean we're a specialized packaging design studio so i mean this is a normal day conversation for us and it is heavy and it should be because it's actually affecting our entire globe So being Swedish and everything, we're also in the forefront of these recycling systems.

32:29So we're actually, yeah, further ahead. I hope you guys soon, all of you catch up to us. But it's very interesting. We speak a lot about materials. We speak a lot about, we redesigned the Jameson whiskey portfolio and their structural bottles, making the Jameson bottle a tad thinner. Still heavy premium, this enjoyable feeling, but also saving, I don't know, humongous amounts of material and money as well. So there are a lot of things that can be done. Then we also get a lot of critique because we, I mean, also being packaging designers, we love this unboxing experience. And my girls are Generation Alpha and they kind of sit in front of their computer and do this unboxing ritual, like looking.

33:24I told someone like this generation, it's my future because they love packaging more than anyone that I've ever met, apart from myself that started to collect boxes when I was like this very young. All of a sudden I discovered like I have a shelf of empty packaging. Why? And they're like, okay, I need to pursue this a little bit more, the packaging design. It's so exciting. And now I have an entire TikTok Snapchat generation with me, like looking at their backpack. Who's reading a romantic copy on the back of packs? Entire generation alpha, amazing in my world. So all of these details, we need to find a more intelligent way to educate and entertain consumers.

34:12and also find a way to do this unboxing of all of our deliveries without it feeling overpacked, like sustainably, not sustainable, like more of a horror feeling sometimes when you buy something online, you get so much material that you just throw away. So how do we do that? So conversations like that we're having on a constant basis or on a daily basis, sorry. and also the type of material that we do select and why the packaging. It's a vessel. It's from the Etruscan era. I think that's where the first packaging was ever found in the history of human beings, like unearned, probably for wine. And it was decorated and everything.

34:59So really beautiful if you saw pictures of that. But it was a vessel with communication on top of it already back then. So how do we do it? It's a vessel to make food last longer because the worst waste of all is when we throw away food. So how do you make it dur longer? How do you make sure that we eat it all up but not overeat? So all of those conversations. How do we protect the cucumber in the best possible way? That story. The plastic on the cucumber, for example. Well, it does actually help the life of a cucumber. So all of that, it's really, really interesting questions. Also with the layering of plastic, how to make recycling, how to improve recycling, monomaterial, structural pack.

35:52What's keeping the sauce best, a bottle or a box? What's best for the content? I love what you're describing because I can see you coming alive. I can see that this is your pure passion now. And my question is, how much of this is an instigation and how much of this is a natural conversation with your clients? Do you educate, do you guide, or do you already answer their questions about what could be? This is the million dollar question because we always try to raise it. And we always try to kind of inspire and help our clients to push their boundaries. and then very often unfortunately we get back oh it's impossible from a production point of view but we do see a shift on the other hand so we do see the last couple of years we do see a bigger understanding and also from reactions from consumers and also reactions from generation alpha from young kids opening up and then they get a small beauty yard in a huge box and they go like This is not good.