"I don't have a plan B, I have to make it work" (Jono McCleery bonus episode)

0:00Radim Malinic:Hey, welcome to another bonus episode of the Daring Creativity Podcast. This is episode number 24 of the current series. I'm here to unpack some of the gems from this week's conversation, pulling out those moments that deserve a second look, and digging deeper into what makes them special. I'm always on the lookout for the moments and ideas that hit different. This week I spoke to Jono McCleary, a single songwriter who bridges folk, jazz and electronic music while maintaining an unwavering commitment to creative authenticity. This episode, published a few days ago, was titled Dare to Trust the Puzzle and has given me a chance to catch up with Jono and talk about his creative output, be it his own records or collaborative projects with dance producers.

0:44Radim Malinic:It was a fantastic conversation about every angle of what it takes to be an independent musician in the age of now. If you haven't checked out the full interview yet, let me start with these four moments that stood out from our conversation. Yeah, it takes resilience, I think, to keep going. For me, not having a plan B is quite a good reason as well. I tried doing rubbish jobs and it just ran. I can do a rubbish job for six months and then I've got so much respect for people who can do that for a lifetime. Oh my gosh, I really, not having a plan B and knowing that music is all I've got and all I want to really live for in a professional sense.

1:25Radim Malinic:Yeah, I simply have to make this work somehow. That's my mindset. As you can imagine, and the reason why I chose this is I love this quote. I nearly named the episode Dare Not To Have A Plan B because I just love the honesty. it's absolutely perfectly on the nose if you don't have a plan b you have to see plan a through and i just loved it because we can have a sort of romantic notions of creative careers but this is jono's commitment and i like it because this is his artistic survival because jono's true honesty about having no fall black plan well some might see there's a reckless optimism but i think it's a strategic necessity.

2:04Radim Malinic:In the era where most of us diversify, and let's be honest, I'm doing lots of different things in different places, but I would like to believe I'm still working creatively and pursuing a creative career, I see Jono's singular focus is the mindset that transforms obstacles from potentially stopping points into puzzles that must be solved. In Jono's singular a mindset it demonstrates the mindset that simply keeps him on track i love the fact when he mentioned that you know he used to try working rubbish jobs but he couldn't really do it because i believe people like you know are destined to be lifelong musicians because he talked in a conversation about the fact that there's a eternal fire burning that he creates every day and that's a true validation and kind of prove that someone is destined to do what they do.

3:00Radim Malinic:It's great to know that he can support himself through streaming and other income sources. When streaming revenue fluctuates, his lack of alternative sources might be actually resilience rather than vulnerability. Because for anyone struggling with creative commitment, this moment validates the power of full investment. that sometimes the safety net itself can prevent you from from learning to fly. I think I try and make the whole process as unconscious as possible and I obviously have to be in a good place to make that happen feel good but the ideal scenario is feeling good about yourself hitting the record button and just being as free as possible coming back later to observe what you've done and then you can start to structure it.

3:44Radim Malinic:It was again very great to see the behind the scenes of what it's like to be writing songs was Jeno's process and how he does it and I just felt like his way of revealing this was in a way of sophisticated understanding of creativity as discovery rather than construction and I'm sure that makes sense now because by prioritizing his unconscious creations over conscious crafts he taps into something more authentic than what deliberate planning typically yields. I was very curious about lyrics, where do they come from and how he does it, and I just love that he said that his process of recording improvisation first, then sort of leads to themes that emerge naturally.

4:30Radim Malinic:He inverts the typical songwriting formula where lyrics and concepts come first. This approach respects the intuition. The idea that our subconscious often knows what we need to express before our rational minds can articulate it. For some musicians, paralyzed by perfection or overthinking, I just love the Jono's method of liberation. Start by playing, record everything, and trust and meaning will reveal itself. The discipline comes not in forcing ideas, but by creating conditions where the unconscious wisdom can surface and then have the patience to decode what you've captured. Yeah, absolutely.

5:11Limitations are so important. And actually now I remember, I'm kind of glad I got into music before technology really developed as well because now it's like everything's so easy to get going with recording and stuff. I had a tape four track, cassette four track, and it was also very limited in what I could record. And then if you want to do more than three or four tracks together, you've got to start bouncing tracks together forever so that you had to develop a lot of discipline working like this. and I think limitations are so important actually. Otherwise it can be easily overwhelming what's possible to do.

5:44Radim Malinic:In the age of infinite digital possibilities, Jonah talks about the constraints as a creative catalyst. His original four-track cassette recorder forced decisions that modern digital recorders wouldn't do. I was curious about the fact, for example, how he tunes his guitar if he goes into odd tunings, odd timings, what does he do? And it was great to hear that he keeps everything really simple. He was grateful for the fact that he started his music career before the digital tools, therefore giving him the space to explore the bare basics. Because in our conversation, we did talk about the fact that some musicians use gimmicks, toys, tools, whatever you call it, to help them sound different.

6:35Radim Malinic:But the main episode was called Dare to Trust the Puzzle. And the word puzzle showed up so many times in our conversation because Jono just finds that taking what's given to you can provide you with unlimited amount of outcomes, questions and options. And I love that because taking things simple just makes you create stuff that's true from your heart. it's actually a really tricky time with social media as well the pressure just to be constantly shouting about yourself on social media i think and aware of your numbers oh my gosh it can really interfere with your creativity and not just that but the general noise of the world i think it's often talk about this with my partners you really have to protect yourself now and so easy to get swallowed up in all the noise and all the pressure to be something to the outside world and when really you know you just got to shut that out sometimes or most of the time in order to be who you need to be.

7:34It's a horrible thing as a creative person feeling this pressure to present myself to the world all the time. So I have to almost switch mindset to do that and then try and protect the other side of me, which is somewhere else being creative.

7:49Radim Malinic:In the fourth stand-up moment from our conversation, I was curious about what it takes to be a musician in the 21st century, in the age of now, and what are the pressures of being on social media, or having the quantification of your following streams and fans, you know, knowing everything, all the data from around the world, how does it actually aid the creative process? Because Jono is beautifully honest, about the fact that it can really derail someone's creativity because ultimately humans we look for that native tribalistic sense of belonging we want to know that we are accepted that we are understood and you can't see any more of this in the behavior of musicians because they express their souls through sometimes elaborate record making process which in Jono's case can take a few years and some people can skew their output to make you more effective to go with the trends to go with what might be popular what might be useful to streaming platforms what might be catchy what might go viral but one of the reasons why I wanted to chat to Jono was the fact that I wanted to see how someone so devoted to his craft, to his output, and who's doubled down on who they are, is really thinking and who's really sort of producing this work.

9:29So I really

9:30Radim Malinic:cherish my conversation with Jono because he was very honest about how you can operate, how you can survive, how you can thrive in a current scenario where, in Jono's admission, you know the process of just being a musician producing albums all of that can get really too much but ultimately him not having a plan b makes the plan a just that more valuable filled with all sorts of tools and skills needed to see the journey through be it resilience compromise, compassion, empathy, willingness to try. So if you haven't checked out a full episode, I encourage you to do so. Thank you for being here and I'll see you on the next one.

10:19Radim Malinic:If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding, and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do to get 10 of your order visit november universe.co.uk and use the code podcast have a look around and start living daringly