"The beauty of naivety is in not understanding the enormity" (Kyle Wilkinson bonus episode)

0:00Radim Malinic:Hey, welcome to another bonus episode of the Daring Creativity Podcast. This is the bonus episode 30 and actually bonus episode number 98 in total. As you know with these things, I am back to unpack some of the gems from this week's conversation. Pulling out those moments that deserve a second look and digging deeper in what makes them special. Because I'm always on the lookout for the moments and ideas that hit differently. this week i'll welcome back carl wilkinson a multidisciplinary designer and a founder of house of thrills and the episode published a few days ago was titled dare to choose your own problems and we covered a lot of ground in getting the info from behind the scenes or what it takes to build a solo show in 90 days if you haven't checked out a full interview and if you are building something this year or thinking about stuff definitely give it a go but if you haven't listened to it let me start with these four moments that stood out from our conversation there's a beauty in the naivety to to things when you put yourself in a position of i don't necessarily know what i'm doing or what i'm getting into because i think the outcome is often better i heard something from noel gallagher recently and it really hit where he he was talking about don't look back in anger and he wrote that on a sunday night or whatever just picked up his guitar and wrote it and he was saying that if he understood the enormity of that song whilst writing it it would have never been written because he would have put himself too much under too much pressure to just get it out and to get it right and to meticulously like craft every word he just did it and then put it down put his guitar down and off he went to pub or whatever he did and I think there's a beauty in that naivety and and the unknown and putting yourself in them scenarios where you you can just create freely and in this in my scenario is that yes i didn't understand getting into it but if i'd have known at the start oh it's going to cost this much money then that would have probably held me back from doing it because i would have gone oh shit what if it didn't work out wow i loved this moment because this quote beautifully summarizes the paradoxes of creative ambition when you know too much it can be paralyzing kyle mentioning don't look back in anger being a song that was just written on a sunday without really understanding the eventual cultural impact is massive imagine if noel knew what he was doing that he was writing one of the defining anthems the pressure would potentially frozen his creative process and i actually remember listening to quite a few interviews noel gallagher because he's always a good value to listen to because he will give you some insights and some real dry dressing down for some famous people but i remember that he said that some of the songs that they become the most popular of that time were literally of like yeah can you ride a b-side and he wrote master plan i'm not an oasis fan but obviously these tracks have been monumental and I know quite most of them and what they've become.

3:09Radim Malinic:And it's a great parallel that Carl used that knowing the enormity of what you're creating can really trip you up because there are two polarizing opposites of being in a business or being creative. Some people can drive with their eyes shut or they can drive in the dark. Some people need to see a mile ahead otherwise they can't move and there is somewhere in between i think is the sweet spot because you can't you can't drive in the dark forever you know you can't be naively working on stuff forever because that would ultimately give you tons of mistakes but then equally like if you know exactly what you're doing seeing miles ahead it can you know just make the journey either unenjoyable it can make you freeze and potentially paralyze you so with Carlos Popup and his 90-day commitment timeline he kind of yeah he didn't really comprehend what he was getting into you know how much of his budget could go wrong you know what the production times can be the plan of 12 weeks being half to six because of you know production timelines all of that adds up to problem solving and firefighting in a way that made the show what it was and not necessarily having a full plan of where he needed to go with it and i think that's the exciting part because seeing a mile ahead and knowing everything could potentially make the cortisol level a bit less spiky shall we say and the night potentially slept better but where would the fun be right i'm sure you agree that's exactly why i think pressure is a privilege it is ultimately you're putting yourself in that position that you're under pressure but what a situation to be in i've put myself in a position that i can create a show in london under my own steam and do what i want with it that's a privilege that's amazing it's an immense amount of pressure of course it is but what a ride what an experience and irrelevant of the outcome the memories that are built from it and the kind of experience and emotional kind of growth from it is worth every step and every painful kind of part of the process the reason why i've chosen the title dare to choose your own problems is loosely linked to a chapter in my one of my previous books titled Creativity for Sale, where I talked about the fact that when you create your own business, when you create your own entity, you can choose your own problems.

5:52Radim Malinic:You can choose the reasons why you want to stay up late and solve something that can give you a ride-all headache. Because when you're employed, when you're solving someone else's problems, it's not your problem. You don't really care that much about it. It's a manufactured problem and then you have to kind of go with it and have all sorts of regrets or second thought about the situation whereas talking about carl's show and having the privilege of creating your own pressure is a moment that validates what we do because the theme of the show as carl told me and it was documented quite well and as it was documented through the promo the theme of the show was about dopamine how we are addicted to it and what is our relationship to dopamine for digital devices through our work through the ways of working society and pressure is technically one way of dopamine sourcing because you know creating your own problems and solving them gives you the validation gives you that sort of 360 cycle and there's something about it because being able to do this being able in a position where you can choose your own problems ultimately adds up to the picture of one's success this brings me back to the episode with Rachel Gogel pictured have success in in almost a sort of infographic diagram saying you know I do different things in a way that I can choose them to do not in the way I can choose to do them in my own way rather than the way that someone else tells me.

7:36Radim Malinic:The standout moment is very much about ownership and authorship because when we choose our own problems even when those problems involves watching your budget double or questioning yourself at 3am you are still the leader of the story the author and that authorship that agency and self-determination is precisely what Kyle identified as a privilege even when it was at times a little bit painful. So I think once you have that grounding route of your own kind of personal beliefs and principles within the work the work can then go off into any direction that you see fit or would like to search down and for me with creativity especially with when you get a client brief if you know the answer at the start of the project then you're doing it wrong because it's not about not if you're not creating anything You're just replicating something that you've done before.

8:28You're resting on your laurels. You're in a certain scenario that you know what you're doing. The whole point of creativity is to create something, to make something. And it's like knowing the answer to the jigsaw puzzle before you've started. That's not the point of the game.

8:44Radim Malinic:When you think about what clients want from creative suppliers, they often go and want to see the previous proof of work to make sure that whatever they think they require is going to be done well. That sort of, when you see creators building their portfolios to demonstrate their ability to deliver specific outcomes, it's kind of the backbone of the creative infrastructures because people get commissioned on predictability and proof. But in this instance, Kyle, I think, challenges it quite beautifully because he believes that the idea is backwards. True creativity, by definition, involves not knowing.

9:29Radim Malinic:The moment you know the answer at the beginning, you've already constrained, you could be seeing a solution to what you've done or what you've seen others do. And during this moment, Carl was using a metaphor of a rainforest that you have to be willing to sit in the dark, in crowded spaces, being in sort of feeling the uncomfortable of not knowing to eventually break through the canopy into the light because let's be honest again moment of truth that most creatives avoid this discomfort by staying in familiar territory and in this democratization of design creativity branding cross-pollination of ideas familiar is safe and familiar gets across the line to do something which is weird and unknown can really feel uncomfortable but what's different gets noticed yes this is the homage to our friends from ragged edge what's different gets noticed and in this instance kyle challenged this mindset beautifully because he's never created this type of artwork before he's never created wooden sculptures he's never put an event like this and car was my guest number one in the original season of the podcast and i remember when i asked him like what's next he says i'm gonna do a gallery i didn't bring into the conversation because i forgot and we focused on the now but it's amazing how he's been projecting and visualizing what he wanted to do and even though he didn't have the answers year and a half ago two years ago followed on the process he's followed he's followed on the idea and made it happen people often ask what do you worry about what people think about your work and to me it's like we create the platform for opinion so we create a piece of work for to allow people to allow others to have an opinion i would so so much rather be on the pitch playing the game than being the stands throwing the opinions about i want to be on the game i want to be on the pitch playing the game every single time and sometimes I will play badly or some people will think I shouldn't be playing and that's fine because I'm still going to play and and I think that once you hit that bar that only comes from that kind of self self-confidence I'm not quite sure what it is but that kind of hitting that bar of I'm going to create this for me and hit a standard that I expect of myself and then if if that results in a positive or negative outcome it doesn't really matter obviously you're human you want it to be positive but it's better that you still play the game i mean i don't even have to say too much of this right because he's already said it in his in the standout moment how many times do we get judged by people who have absolutely no foggy idea about what to do and how to do it but they still have an opinion on stuff that we do or you do and in carl's instance is like i'd rather be in the unknown and the uncomfortable getting to do this stuff rather than you know be the passing traffic because i love that when we in during the conversation he said that there was a piece of work in the show where someone said in kyle's words he said that someone really summarized beautifully what they've seen you know there's a part of his pieces as a part of a sophisticated social commentary and then somebody says why the fuck would you want a skull on your wall and those both reactions are valid but those are just reactions there's not someone who's making the work making it exist and during the conversation with kyle and during many conversations prior to the show you know happening on the phone we had a lot of chat about why to even start the show and why to do it and to actually create something because there are not many people doing stuff right now on that scale in this sort of way because let's rewind back 10 15 20 years ago and that was what we used to do we create as a norm because the digital alternative wasn't available and it's kind of disheartening in the way that whatever happens these days is an experience or something like an event we're talking about you know general sort of corporate events creative corporate events the creativity part is so minuscule and the biggest noise about a show is not about the work or how it influences people we just got teenage content creators running around making reels about how they you know came to see something and it's almost them justifying the free train tickets to come to the show so this is not to speak sort of of ill of how things work right now but it's the fact of how do we make people feel and how do we still very much have the ability to get people to be part of something really exciting and actually make people feel something like it happened in the past.

14:53Radim Malinic:So if you haven't listened to the full episode with Kyle, I very much encourage you to do so. It's full of artist determination and how we made it happen. And thanks for joining me on this bonus episode, and I'll see you on the next one. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an e-book and audio book to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do.

15:30Radim Malinic:To get 10 % of your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly. Like, share and subscribe