164: Oak Cliff Swipers

23:39Okay, so tell me about putting your first skimmer on a machine? Well, it was a gas station right around the corner from my house that I've been going to my whole life. So, I mean, I used to, like, clean up the parking lot and shit when I was a kid at this gas station, so it's like they would never fuck with me about anything anyways. So I would just put it in there and let it sit for about a week.

24:06Yeah. So you're not even nervous driving up to it, like, okay, here we go, we're going to put this in. You're just like, I already got the keys for all the gas pumps. Like I live in the hood. So it's like you can get whatever you want to get into anything. OK, so he leaves this skimmer on the gas pump for a few days. And in case you don't know what a skimmer is, it fits right over the credit card reader on the gas pump. So when you go to swipe your card to buy some gas, his skimmer will also read your card and save the data from it. It's meant to look just like a regular scanner on the gas pump so that you don't notice it.

24:40And this is why every time I go to swipe my card anywhere, I first grab the reader and wiggle it hard to see if it comes off because then it would be a skimmer. After a few days, he comes back and pulls it off the pump. And then he has to learn how to get the data off it. Okay, so you can either unplug it and hook it up to your computer USB and it just downloads. It opens it up and it's just like a pile. Or you can Bluetooth them. The later ones have Bluetooth. You just go Bluetooth to it. Bloop. Download. Okay, so when you grabbed it and you connected it to your computer, what'd you find? Track one and track two information.

25:15And, bro, the reason they caught me with all them victims and 6 ,500 victims from over 100 different banks is because I was trying to crack the code, bro. Crack the code? Yeah, the algorithm. I'm trying to generate dumps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you just want to get back out of each one of them, I'd be able to figure out the sequence, you know what I mean? Yeah, because it's just a 16-digit number plus a CVV code. If you could figure out a way to find those numbers. I mean, they already got gigrated for the numbers. So if you could just find how they get the CVV code, you'd be good. Yeah. And that's what you were trying to do.

25:52That's why you won't need today. Right now, today. So I actually tried that same thing when I was a teenager. Like, hey, this is just a 16-digit code. Let me just type in gibberish into this form and see if I could order shit. And, of course, none of it worked. and I was like, okay, this is beyond me. Well, I just was doing it at random, trying to think, like, how do they know if this is a real card? I'm just going to type in whatever. And they somehow knew it. I always just use mom and dad's credit card to find out. And then I knew the cards work like that. And then I just started stealing everybody else's knowledge.

26:21Yeah. Okay, so... Cards like that, like that. How many cards did you get from that gas pump? Oh, probably like 83 or something like that, if I remember correctly. Dang. That was like for three days? What did you do with those cards? I sat on them. I didn't do nothing with them. Why? I was scared. Yeah. They just weren't familiar enough with how all this worked. The cards they were punching in at Walmart were just random numbers that they were trying. And the dumps that they were buying, well, they knew that those were already stolen by someone else. But these cards, they were skimming themselves.

26:56That's new to them. They never stole credit cards before like this. So they just had to sit on them and let the heat cool down for a little while. We're going to take a quick ad break here, but stay with us because wherever you think this story is going, I promise you, it gets way crazier than that. This episode is sponsored by my friends at Black Hills Information Security. Black Hills has earned the trust of the cybersecurity industry since John Strand founded it in 2008. Through their anti-siphon training program, they teach you how to think like an attacker. From SOC analyst skills to how to defend your network with traps and deception, it's hands-on, practical training built for defenders who want to level up.

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28:37Okay, Chicken Express. That's what this chapter is called. Chicken Express. I've never been there, but I'm looking at it on Google Maps. And there's actually a bunch of them in Texas. It's a drive-through, fast food, chicken joint. And during busy times, they have two lanes for cars to line up in. But in order to take the order from that second lane, a cashier needs to walk out to the car and take the order and then also take their money so that they can go into the building and charge the credit card or get change for them. Nathan's brother's girlfriend, Elizabeth, got a job at Chicken Express taking orders.

29:11And what he would do was, he had this little girlfriend. And like, you know, manipulation and all that bullshit. So you know how that goes. Yeah. Convince any woman to do whatever you want. Just like they can convince every man to do what they want him to do. So she was working at Chicken Express. And we were like, okay.

29:35They had the skimmers from before. And they were like, you've got this great big apron on. Put the skimmer in your front apron pocket. And then when you take the person's credit card into the building to swipe it, also swipe it in the skimmer in your apron. The machine to charge the card was inside the restaurant so that she would take the card, leave, and come back, which would give her ample opportunity to stick it in that pocket and swipe it through that skimmer. Because it don't matter which way you go on the skimmer or anything, it's going to record it. All right, I get it. They basically were just grabbing a copy of everyone's credit card that came through that Chicken Express lane.

30:11Her first day doing it, she got eight cards. Not bad. But again, they're too scared to use them. They've just stolen eight cards. Take it easy. Don't do anything with it. His brother was the one who was grabbing the cards off of Elizabeth Skimmer and keeping it on his computer. He didn't want to share them with Nathan. Right. Well, we were just going to save him up for a while. And what we really were planning was to start selling dumps. Okay. but I had other ideas in my head. My little brother had his ideas. I had mine. Yeah. What was your brother's ideas? Well, he, he, he didn't want to use them.

30:50I wanted to use them. Why? Okay. I, this is what I don't understand. Both of you have now spent$2 ,500 to buy skimmers. You've both gotten dozens of cards from it. And then you're like, let's not use this for anything. Well, cause we didn't know nothing about that side of it. You know what I mean? Like the dump side of it. We knew what track one, track two was, and we knew how to put them on cards, and we knew all that stuff, but we didn't know none of the... I guess we were trying to do OPSEC on it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I figured it out. Yeah, okay, okay. So you're just being hesitant.

31:24If we were to use these, we were hacking it, trying to figure out how their system worked. We didn't know if we used one of these, they were going to come busting down our door right there or not. Well, you know. That's right, yeah. So we were more conscious about it. Okay, fair enough. But she keeps skimming them. Yeah, she kept skimming them for months. So they just sat on them, not sure what to do. Just play it cool. Until one day, Nathan decided to use one. One day I used like two or three. We were stuck somewhere or something to handle gas or something. because we had an average setup inside a vehicle to where we could make cards on our goat.

32:09We'll get to that sooner or later. Okay. But we didn't have no dumps, so we couldn't get none, or we couldn't get no big, back there was Liberty Reserve. We didn't have no Liberty Reserve to buy any, our web money. So we decided to use a couple of them. And they were bangers. I'm talking about bangers, bangers, bangers. He was storing these cards in a Google Doc, and he took a few and got some blank credit cards and he used his MSR advice to write the credit card details to the card. At first, he just tried to use it on a gas pump and it worked. He got gas with this card and then he went into a store and tried buying stuff.

32:49And he says with just a few cards, he was able to buy$3 ,000 worth of stuff. Every one of them hit, bro. Every one of them hit. Of course they hit because their cards you stole, they're fresh. Right. The ones you were buying online, We're sold to four other people before they were sold to you, right? I know you didn't know that, but that's why they weren't working. Yours were fresh. We probably got scammed eight times before we ever got one at work. That's right. Yeah. You know? But yeah, so we didn't know that they worked like that. So once we used them fresh ones, my brother didn't want to use no more.

33:21And I'm like, fuck him. I'm going. My wheels are spinning in my head. And once I see the taste of money, it's like, I'm not worried about pussy. I'm not worried about drugs. You ever been addicted to making money? Let's talk about being addicted to making money. Because this is an addiction.

33:39He had some of these cards from the skimmers that he was putting around town. But it was his brother who had the most amount of cards. From all the cards, his girlfriend Elizabeth was skimming at Chicken Express. But his brother wasn't sharing those cards with Nathan. And his mind was racing with how to get those from his brother. I don't know how much of the federal paperwork you read or if you looked anything up. but there was like 58 people they wanted to indict. 58? And they only got three of us. Well, they got four of us, but only three of us. Well, you have to tell me when those other 55 come into play because we've only listed three so far.

34:12They've already been involved with all that. We're already making cards. By that time, we're already making cards. We're already deep in the game by then. This is when we get the fresh dumps, and we're using them fresh dumps that were skimmed. That's what our fair case started because of. Okay, so the other 50 people were involved before this? Not necessarily all 50 of them. Like my brother had these people and I had my people. My brother had like four or five people and I had like 30 people. Okay, and these other people, what were their roles? Shoppers. See, Nathan had a Fargo printer, which is a classic printer used to make IDs.

34:49Think membership cards or student IDs, employee badges. but he was using it to make credit cards. He was making them look really good. I'd print the cards and then program the MagStrip. And my little key trick was, so they don't have to ask you for ID, just put your fucking picture in the corner of the fucking card. So you had a guy that you took a picture of him and you would print it on the card to make it look like a legitimate card. It wasn't just a blank card. You were printing on the card to make it look as good as possible. Yeah. And then he was taking it in the store and like, look, my picture's on the card.

35:26How can you say that's not me? Exactly. Wow. That's going the length there. This was like in 2008, or 7 and 8. So nobody was doing it like that back then. So he would go around his neighborhood and hit up people he thought might want the extra cash and have them come over. And then he'd make a bunch of credit cards with their photo on it and have them go out and shop with stolen credit cards and then bring back any of the stuff you buy with it. So what I'll do, since I'm providing the cards, I figured the cards were, if they're buying a dump and they're making the card, so I charge$100 for the card, basically, right?

36:02Okay. So say they bring me back$3 ,000 worth of merchandise. I can only sell it for half price. So that's$1 ,500 out the gate. I'm taking$100 off for each card, and I'm paying you cash the rest. Hot damn. So people, yeah, okay, that's a pretty good incentive. I could see why a bunch of people would want to get in on this In Texas And plus you know like I was in the hood so everybody's broke Nobody has nice jobs and shit like that All their parents are crackheads Or whores or prostitutes or Pimps or the pushers The pimps are the pushers Okay so all that was going around for a while With crappy stolen credit cards A lot that didn't work But now Nathan is like man I'm sitting on a bunch of Banger cards It's time to start making some real money with these.

36:51But his brother was the one who had the bulk of them, and he wasn't sharing. So my brother didn't want to use them. And so I hacked my brother. Fuck. I mean, I hacked him and started using him. Wait, you hacked your brother? Yeah. Why not? You got something I want, I guess. How'd you do that? I mean, I just got on his computer and fucking stole his file. I knew, you know, it's my little brother, you know, so obviously he's learned from me. So he's going to think kind of like I think. So it wasn't that hard to find the text document and where it was hidden. And I've seen him, you know, because it's his girlfriend that was doing it.

37:33Right. So and then, yeah, I didn't go to prison the first time until I was 30. So I made a pretty good file where I got in trouble. I did good for myself. What age do you think your daughter is going to be before she goes to prison for the first time? I think they're not going to prison. Okay. One of them's graduated college. The other one's in college. I'm a 16-year-old freshman grader at high school with her nursing shit done this year. Do you have a better neighborhood that they're living in compared to where you grew up? Yeah. I mean, it's Dallas, bro. You know, it's a city. So I mean it's like Bad shit happens everywhere You put it as like a badge of honor Like man I didn't go to prison until I was over 30 So I did pretty good Most people were either dead or In prison by the time they're 30 in my neighborhood I grew up in Old Cliff though see My kids live in Dallas with their mother Yeah I mean it's a little better But it's still the city you know Fast life What did your dad do Was he a carpenter or a musician?

38:44It's on fire systems and restaurants and paint booths. Did he ever break the law? At what age did he go to prison? He went to jail when he was a kid one time for running from the police because he had a race car. He had a Dodge Challenger. Yeah. I mean, when you say the fast life, it really does resonate with me because everything's just moving and changing and things are happening. And it feels uncomfortable because it's like, I'm not ready for this. but man, everyone else is doing it. So I better get ready for this because I got no choice. It's like you're in a tank full of sharks. So you become a shark or you get eaten.

39:21Okay, we need to get back on track. All right, with the stolen file that he got from his brother, he had a whole new chest of cards to start cracking into. And when I think about the supply chain here, it's pretty wild. Elizabeth stole these cards from people at Chicken Express and then she gave them to her boyfriend. Actually, I think they got married sometime in there as well. So she gave them to her husband. Then Nathan steals the cards from him. And then he prints them onto cards and gives them to shoppers and swipers. And then they go out and they buy things from the stores with them. And then they sell those things back to Nathan for 30 % of its value.

39:55And then Nathan tries to sell it for 50 % of its value on the streets. So Nathan was a lot of people's hookups for just half-priced stuff. But despite being complex and long, the system was working. with Nathan working with dozens of shoppers that were just going around buying stuff all the time. It was endless work for him. He was making cards all day and reselling things and buying stuff, but he was making good money doing it all. At this point, his brother realized that Nathan stole the cards and was unhappy about it, but was joining him on some of this anyway. I mean, he had always joined.

40:29He said I was doing too much because I was doing too much. Anyway, he didn't want to miss out on all the money that he could get from these cards that his wife stole. In order to be a good swiper, you got to believe in your heart and in your mind and your body that this is your credit card. This is your money. If you don't, you won't do good. You'll be one of them people that pays for the shit and then they ask you for ID and you burn off. And you just burned yourself. It's all about how you talk to people. It's all about your finesse game, really. Yeah. And who you pick to check you out. Did you teach people how to do that game?

41:02Yeah, you got to. Okay, teach me. I want to be a good swiper. Okay. So I'm teaching you to be a swiper. We'll give you probably like two or three cards, right? Yep. I'm going to tell you what to go in there and get. Like I'd plan people's routes out for them and everything. Like back then it was MapQuest, right? I'd plan their whole route out for them, tell them what stores to go to and everything. But I'd have it all rolled down and everything. So we would go to the store, and you would come with me first, and I'd show you how to do it. I'd never look up at a camera. Never, never. I always wear a hat.

41:33and I'm always looking down at my phone. So always be on your phone. That was the rule of one for one. Always be on your phone. Because if you're looking down at your phone, you're always going to look down, right? Yeah. So you're not going to be looking up to where a camera can get a clear picture of your face. That's why I get my federal documents. It says 205 white males. 205 white males. It was always me and my brother. Yep. But it was 205 white males. That's all it was. and always cover up all your tattoos. Wear a hat. You know, things that are going to, you know, make it not so obvious of who you are, but without not making it so obvious that you're hiding your identity.

42:16Right? Yeah. I liked, when I go get gift cards, I'd like putting on some coveralls and getting them all dirty and shit. It looked like I'd been working on an oil rig all day and I'm coming here to get$2 ,500 gift cards for my workers because they passed a safety test. Yeah. So then it doesn't look too obvious. Then my brother's got coveralls with me. He's with me. My car don't work. Right? Yeah. Bro, you're about to get on your car yet? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm about to get on my car. Pay for my shit, bro. And as soon as my shit gets on there, I'll pay you back. So he's at one register and I'm at his next register.

42:53We're working together at the same time still too. Yeah. So we're banging him double. Bro, like, Like when I was doing that, I went to all the way to Missouri and back down and got like$30 ,000 worth of gift cards. The dude sold them. They were for eBay and PayPal. And he had to buy a vet with them off eBay. So over time, the shoppers and swipers and his network would be bringing him tons of stuff. A lot was gift cards, but sometimes it was TVs and laptops and video game consoles. Anything that would have a high resale value. What I'd do is I'd have a storage and I'd fill it up. And there's pictures of it in my discovery packet.

43:34And I'd fill it up. And then I had a couple of Mexicans that are cartel. They take all this shit back to Mexico, bro. Go buy this shit for cash. It's easier to transport this shit across the border than it is cash. I'm not going to lose it getting across the border. You'll be able to drive right across. It's crazy how much logistics went into his operation. But the more cards he would get from skimming, the more cards he could just print and then give to shoppers. and they would be constantly bringing him stuff. He had it all dialed in. Bro, at the end of it, I was making like$5 ,000 cash a day profit.

44:05But of course, in the wake of all his activity, it would mean that tons of cards were reported stolen and purchases were traced to certain locations and authorities started putting pieces together. After Texas, bro, so basically half the United States. This article says this case is being investigated by the Tyler Police Department, U.S. Secret Service, the Smith County Sheriff's Office, the Henderson County Sheriff's Office, the Athens Police Department, the Caney City Police Department, the Longview Police Department, the Mesquite Police Department, the Terrell Police Department, the Waco Police Department, the Corsican Police Department, the Waxachachi Police Department, the Van Zandt County Precinct 4 Constable, Walmart Stores Associate Asset Protection, and Southside Bank.

44:51Yeah, it's crazy, right? It wasn't too hard for them to all look at the cards for a common purchase point, which would indicate where they were likely stolen. And the cops saw that Chicken Express and gas pumps were where these cards were getting stolen from. Eventually, this meant the cops had an arrest warrant for Nathan. And it didn't seem like they knew exactly what he was up to, but they had a strong suspicion that he was doing something wrong. And for some reason, right around this time, Nathan broke up with his wife. They got a divorce. and she was the mother of his kids. She wasn't clean from crime herself, though.

45:26She got caught punching in those credit cards at Walmart, remember? And the police gave her a stern talking to for that one. But for whatever reason, the two of them broke up and were done with that relationship. I met this bad bitch, bro. So I had a bitch living in the house with me. And I met this bad bitch, bro. So I bring a bad bitch home with me and kick my other bitch out the night before, bro, that I got raided. So I'm in there making some cards this morning. It's like 6 o 'clock in the morning, bro. And, uh... The dude comes over from across the street to get some cards, make some cards.

45:55Five minutes later, bro, I hear his bang on the door, and they kick in the door. I fucking throw the laptop on the floor, and I jump up. He's in there. And I come into the living room. They fucking got a gun in my goddamn daughter's head, bro. She's like five years old, bro. What? And fucking, they're telling me to get down on the ground. But I said, get that fucking gun out of my daughter's face, you fucking bitch. I'm like, I'm irate, bro. Like, I'm already freaking the fuck out. His girlfriend and dad come home, and they see Nathan in handcuffs in the front yard. In the Secret Service, they started asking me questions.

46:24I'm like, I ain't got nothing to say. And I'm like, well, they found stolen motorcycles here, drugs, everything. Blending credit cards. They raided the neighbor's house across the street. They found a fucking baby white container with like a thousand cards in it. They put them all on the news. They have pictures of them all out on the table. Like they fucking, you know how they do. They paraded that shit around like they did something good. Yeah. I was just a modern-day Robin Hood, bro. That's all. I was from the rich. No, you were not the Robin Hood. You weren't giving anything to the poor. You were the one making all the money.

47:05You were like, I want more money. I want more money. It looks like I made all the money because I had so many people working for me. But everybody else made just as much money as I did. So the cops continued to question him. But he just kept quiet the whole time They told him, look, if you tell us the names of everyone involved Then we'll let you go But he didn't say anything He didn't give up anyone's names And I'm not sure if they even knew he was the ringleader of all this or not They were like, well, we don't have anything to charge you with today I was able to search warrant You'll be receiving an indictment at a later date and left And they didn't take you They just left you Nobody to jail They tried to take my Escalade But they couldn't take my Escalade because it wasn't in my name Never put nothing in my name Thank God So Okay So what kind of cars Did you have at the time?

47:53I had a Jaguar A Lexus And a Can I guess Yeah And they didn't They couldn't take any of the cars? No My Lexus was in my best friend's name The Escalade was in the cop's name I bought it from And my Jaguar was in my The homeboy's name So you were You were buying cars with this What else were you doing with the money? Oh we buy electronics Jewelry I had lots of jewelry And lots of guns Uh huh Drugs? Oh, yeah, lots of drugs. Yeah, I always had drugs. What? Of course. Sorry to ask. When they took me out for Ritalin, what else did I have to do besides self-medicate? Yeah, they gave you drugs at the beginning.

48:31They started getting prescription methamphetamines when I was six years old. What did they expect me to turn into? The cops did take all the blank cards, the gift cards, writers, and stuff that looked illegal. I saw a picture of it. They laid it all out on a table for the media to see. One picture I counted, over 200 gift cards just spread out all over the table. And at the time, he was still living with his parents, his mom and dad, and his kids. His little brother was living there, but his brother got a sense that Nathan was doing just too much and was going to move out. And his brother was still mad that he stole the file off his computer.

49:04He's mad as fuck. Even though his brother did some of this activity himself too, there was just too much going on for him. It was getting too hot. and his little brother moved out just before the cops raided the place. He wasn't here, bro. He already burped off because he said I was doing too much. I mean, ultimately, we would have got caught anyways. I just kind of put us in the HLV line and got us there quicker. Yeah, with their past of punching in credit cards at stores, buying dumps online, and getting dozens of people to help be shoppers, they were doomed from that alone. The Chicken Express cards that they were using like this, it just sped up the process of them getting caught.

49:39So after they raided us, I had$20 ,000 stash that they didn't find. It was in a fucking, one of the big flashlights that has the big, big square batteries in it. Had five rolls, a$5 ,000 piece wrapped up rubber band in there in my dad's room. They didn't search, they didn't even search my parents' room at all. Okay. All right. So, what did you do after that? Did you stop cold turkey? You became a good boy? No. I smashed the gas on that bitch ass. I smashed the gas. The cops were already after me. They already know what I'm doing. The fuck am I going to stop for? Marty in trouble? Marty Clark? Oh, Mike.

50:12Oh, my God. I'm an Aquarius, for one. So it's like I'm all or nothing. I'm going to give it 110 % or I'm going to give it no percent. Same thing I do with my relationships.

50:26But I'll go back to the childhood still, like you were talking about earlier, you know? You apply what you've learned to everything. So what he knows is how to make money and be invisible. So he grabs the$20 ,000 and goes on the run. Probably like three days later, I went to Dallas. And I got me, I was staying at the hotels at first. And then I got me a spot, a little house that I was able to rent somebody else's name. Get the electricity and shit going on somebody else's name. All that. And I started making credit cards there. My homeboy, my right-hand man that lived with me, he sold drugs. I sold credit cards.

51:06So I never had to buy drugs anymore. And he never had to buy credit cards no more. Worked out. Now, during that time, the police were also looking for his brother, but he was hiding out too. But one day, his brother made a mistake with one of the stolen credit cards. Okay, I have it in my notes that he was at an arcade messing around with quarters. He got like$200 worth of quarters at the fucking automated quarter machine with a credit card. With a stolen credit card? Yeah. And why was this suspicious at all? because people don't buy$200 worth of quarters I mean not and put them in their pocket and leave how would you put$200 worth of quarters in your pocket I guess you're right I would have been playing video games so he just goes into the arcade grabs$200 worth of quarters and is like I'm good and the mall worker calls the cops yeah and says this guy's weird he just bought$200 worth of coins and he's leaving quarters He went shopping, too.

52:08He had a whole bunch of shit under the car outside the mall. He had a whole bunch of shit under the car that he had been shopping in there all day, too. Just follow the trail of quarters to the mall. You'll catch them. And he's like, shit, that's easy$200. Because it's like the Mac you let you get out per card. So this is how his brother got caught. And since they caught him in the act, they took him right to jail. So they ended up catching my brother probably around November. And they got arrested in Dallas. And I had already knew it, Bondsman. So I called the bondsman and had the bondsman go get him right out.

52:38And he got out. His brother was out of jail, but not for long. Stealing from the mall is one thing, but running a huge stolen credit card ring is another. So the feds came and arrested his brother and took him to jail a week later. I couldn't bond him out to the feds. When the feds got him and the U.S. marshal detainer was on him, yeah, and there ain't no bonding out to the feds, bro. I had$100 ,000 cash. I tried to get him out, and they told me I was fucked. So I ended up paying$20 ,000 for a federal lawyer. That was the biggest waste of money ever. So your brother's stuck in jail. I can't get him out.

53:08You can't get him out. I mean, Lena was my best friend, you know? Oh, yeah. My first best friend was my sister. She died when I was 13. She was killed in a drunk driving accident. Oh, no. So then my little brother became my best friend, you know? So was she—a drunk driver hit her? Yeah. Were you in the car, too? No, it was her, her boyfriend, and then two other people in the other vehicle. All four of them were intoxicated. Your sister was intoxicated, too? Yeah, she was underage. We won a$5 million lawsuit against Dennis Rodman, bro, but it was under LLC, so we'll never get none of the money.

53:43Wait, how does Dennis Rodman come into this story? Well, it's not into the story. It's into the story of my sister dying. He owned the bar that they were at drinking underage, and we got an investigator that went there. We got video of it and shit, and we won in court. Okay, so was it the car that your sister was in that was the drunk driver, or was it the other car? Both of them. Oh, okay. But everybody was drunk in both cars. Holy cow. What an awful situation that is to lose your sister at 13. Yeah, it was true. That was probably my first real traumatic event in my life. And that's when I started using drugs.

54:21That's when I blamed God for everything. That's why, you know what I mean? That's when my life really took turn for the worst. Really? They hit you hard. Yeah. I mean, you know, getting a knock on the door at 4 o 'clock in the morning, two police officers being there, and you're 13 years old, and you're answering the door with your mom and dad because somebody's beating on the door at 4 o 'clock in the morning. And then you're hearing this. So it's like, yeah. Our parents didn't know how to deal with losing a kid, so how could they help us cope with losing a sister? Yeah, right. They're probably losing their mind.

55:01they don't they're griefing they can't help you right I didn't do that what are they going to do to tell us what are they going to do to help us so you had to find your own way which is drugs right that was my escape God damn My escape from reality and then once I figured out how to escape from reality I mean you escape from reality forever and then this time I've been sober like five months you've been sober right now for the last five months? yeah oh good for you wow that's hard you know it took me losing probably the love of my life to figure that out wait hold on we started this call you told me you had a bong in front of you I do I didn't say I smoke weed Vicky you started doing that

55:55What are you smoking?

56:01Nothing. I don't know what to believe with you. I believe I just took a bong rip. It's sober for five months. Yeah. Okay. So, your brother's in jail. You're stressed out on this. You're hiding out from the cops. Are you missing from the cops? Are they asking you to come to court and you're like, nope, I'm not coming? I'm wanting. So, my brother's baby mama, Elizabeth, she's staying with my cousin in another house in Oak Cliff. And I get a call one day that she was talking to the Secret Service. they're trying to get herself in. And I find out about it. I go over there and tell her to get in the car.

56:50She gets in the car. I tell her, give me her phone. She gives me her phone, take the battery out, send the car out, throw the shit out the window, break that bitch in habit, throw it out the window until I ever, keep talking to coffee again. I'm going to kill her. Damn. I kidnapped her. What, you kidnapped Elizabeth? And then she started getting high on methamphetamines and now she's in jail still for methamphetamines. I turned her out. Fucked her life off. What? You never got high before. I got her hired for the first time. She's been doing meth ever since. Oh, my God. What? My brother got custody of both his sons because he could tell you all that stuff.

57:24But, yeah, he ended up getting custody of both of his sons because his baby mom was a piece of shit. My baby mom was a piece of shit, too. She got back with a guy that molested my kids. Yeah, but you're the one who turned her into a piece of shit by getting her hooked on meth. It's not my fault she stayed addicted. What is this? You need your own. TV show. Someone needs to be following you with a camera. You would pull my life off. We'd be, I'll be rich. We all be cool. Like I tell you all the time, you can't make this shit up. I know. Like Jersey Shore would have nothing on you. You would just be like, come on.

58:01And this is real life reality. All that shit that they do is fake script and shit. Yeah. So the indictment comes out. It lists Nathan, his brother, and his brother's wife, Elizabeth, saying they were stealing credit cards from Chicken Express and then using those at Walmart. Nathan was still wanted, though. Missing, hiding out, and still making stolen credit cards. I had a budinguera, a witch lady come from Mexico. A what? A budinguera. What the hell? It's like a witch person, a witch doctor or something. You know, they worship Santa Muerte. Why would you get this? So they can come from my house.

58:39How much did you pay them? I like 200 bucks. So what happened was, so I ended up burning a candle in my house, one of the Mexican candles, and it stopped burning. So my homeboy was still staying over there. The cops had came to the house looking for somebody, but it wasn't for me or for him or anything. It was some wrong house, basically. But I panicked. And so I wasn't never going back there. And somebody called me and told me the candle was going out. I go to get the candle. The candle was going out. Never got the candle lit again. So she could channel her spell and keep her spell protection over me.

59:10well it didn't work I was on the fucking channel 458 11 news most wanted top 10 DLW most wanted by the US Marshals and they were looking for me in my Escalade so I dropped my Escalade off got my Lexus and we went and got our OCS for Oak Cliff Swipers we had a little swiping clip called Oak Cliff Swipers and we went and got our OCS tattoos me and my cousin and one of my shoppers Tattoos. You're on the run from the feds and you're like, guys, we need to stop and get tattoos on the way out of town.

59:51Oak Hill Swipers. Oak Cliff. Oak Cliff Swipers. What a song about. It's called Oak Cliff, That's My Hood. Oak Cliff, yeah, that's my hood. Put it in his face. Get that shit understood. This ain't what you want, boy. That needs to be the opening intro music. Oh, Cliff, that's my hood.

1:00:14My main girlfriend shows up at the tattoo parlor, so I got both my bitches there. Oh, they didn't know about each other. Yeah, they knew about each other. The side bitch knew, but they didn't. The main bitch didn't like the side bitch. Side bitch didn't give a plug. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, that's how it usually works. My cousin's telling me, I got you, cuz. So I make both my bitches sit in the backseat. My cousin rides in the front seat with me. We go to my cousin's house. My side bitch goes in the house with me because my cousin and my main bitch don't get along. They hate each other. So she's like, you didn't come to my house.

1:00:46So this bitch is outside my Lexus. I'm in the bed with my side bitch at my cousin's house. I wake up the next morning, make some cars, roll a blunt. Start looking for my cousin, roll a blunt. She goes, Nathan, the cops are here. My cousin, she had the doors open in the front of the house and was cleaning and shit. She's seen the Secret Service car pull up. They were just two bigger service agents originally with one Dallas patrol car when they came to arrest me. And I don't know how they got the anonymous tip there. I'm pretty sure it was my main bitch's fucking mama. I'm about 99.9 % sure. And it's all good.

1:01:24You know, I was going to get caught up instantly anyway, so I'm glad it went down like it did and I didn't get hurt. Because I ran everybody out of the house. My cousin's Mexican. She got like three kids at the house with her. Both my bitches are out of the house. I ran everybody out the house, put on my body armor, got my AR-15, loaded that bitch. I had 10, 30-round clips, but I was ready for war. I didn't know what was happening. I thought I was going to prison for the rest of my life, bro. Wow. So I was ready to die. So you cleared everyone else out of the house, and then you loaded up body armor and armed yourself with all the weapons you had.

1:01:58Yeah. And you flashed it out the windows and the doors, like, hey, stay out. Stay out. In-screen front porch, bro. On the underneath the carport. They had the screen on it, though, that you could see out, but people couldn't see in, right? Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. So I was sitting there watching them for six hours, bro, while they were surrounding my house, the tank pulling up in the front yard and putting the robot on the porch, throwing a phone in through the door, shooting flashbangs and teargash. I'm sitting there watching these fucking idiots thinking they're teargashing and flashbanging me, and I'm sitting out here on the front porch watching these fucking idiots the whole time, bro.

1:02:29Oh, dang. Yeah. They didn't know you were on the porch. I wouldn't have picked them off. I mean, I want to get all of them. But I could have picked them off, bro, if I really wanted to. They wouldn't even know. I mean, after the first couple of shots, I mean, I would have got a couple of them before they got me. Oh, yeah. I would have tried to go out like that. Not at that point in my life. I mean, this sounds really intense. Were you scared? Were you tensed up? Were you high? I was hyperventilating. I was cold sweats. It's like it was an adrenaline rush and sadness and it's over with all at the same time, you know.

1:03:13So I just said, fuck this. I took some hydrocodone. I took some Xanax. Went in the house. As soon as I went in the house, my eyes started burning like a motherfucker, crying like a baby. So I fucking put on some big-ass glasses, wrapped a towel around my head, got it wet, and went to the door and I find this phone that they threw into the window and I pick up the phone. The hostage negotiator gets on the phone. I'm telling you, bitch, I'm going to talk to you. Put Secret Service Agent Reeves on the phone. He said, yes, sir. He got on the phone. So, Mr. Reeves, these Dallas police are going to kill me, bro.

1:03:43They're treating, look at this, they got this tank out here in the front yard. They got the goddamn SWAT. They got the command center band down at the end of the block. There was an actual tank in your yard? Bro, they had dead snipers on the hospital across the street. Damn. Okay, what? How did they know that you were, like, armed and dangerous in there? You must have showed them, like, hey, I've got these weapons, like, through the window or something. And they're fucked back. Yeah, they got, like, three rounds into the ceiling. And, uh, I mean, I came to the door. You shot the ceiling? Yeah.

1:04:16And at the door, they saw—so they came all the way to the door and they saw you shooting the ceiling. They were in the yard. They were in the yard in the tank. They had, like, a turn on the tank that they shoot tear gas. This is crazier than Waco. Secret Service, like, they're very professional, bro, and they're very chill and laid back, bro. He said, since we don't know if there's anybody else in the house, you have to come out and surrender to them. But as soon as you surrender to them, I'm going to come and get you. I said, that's your word. And he said, what are your demands? I said, bro, I want to talk to my kid, and I want to smoke some cigarettes, and I just want to call my parents and my kids, tell them I love and tell everybody I love.

1:04:51He's like, well, you come out peacefully. you got my word you got that I was like that's your word as a man he's like that's my word as a man and uh so I surrendered peacefully after eight hours holy mackerel okay and I didn't like that so I was for them they were fixed to come in was in like the next five minutes they were they were they were fixed to come in and get me so I probably would have been dead yeah yeah did they did they honor their word the secret service I didn't even get put in handcuffs by the Dallas police. And when he arrested me, he put zip ties on me and put them in the front.

1:05:29And he let me sit in the front seat with him when we left. When we drove off, I was in the front seat with him. And the other agent was behind me.

1:05:39And he gave me his cell phone. He said, call your kids. We got down to the grassy knoll where Kennedy got shot. He said, you're not going to try to run, are you? I said, nope. He said, if you do, I'm going to shoot you in the back. Let me sit down on the grassy knoll and spoke three cigarettes before he took me to Lou Starrett. Lou Starrett Justice Center is the main Dallas County jail. And as you could guess, he was facing tons and tons of charges at this point. They were slapping him with charges of things he didn't even do. Like any time that there was a stolen credit card incident in Texas, he was getting charged with that.

1:06:10They were actually one of the computers that had been purchased from us. They had ended up finding it somewhere or something. and they found out it had some child pornography on it. But my lawyer had a special investigator and somebody had bought the laptop before us and taken it back to Walmart and then my shopper purchased it. Okay, so at this point, your brother's in jail. His ex-wife, Elizabeth, is in jail. You're in jail. Yep. And Corey Davis is in jail too. Corey Davis. Let me see what I have on him. So this guy was an accomplice. He was the one that was getting credit cards that morning for everyone who got raided originally.

1:06:58Yeah. They had to cross the street from me. Dude couldn't feed his kids. Him and his wife lost their job and couldn't feed their kids, pay their bills or nothing. So I put them on and then they tell on me. Oh, he was your neighbor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was cashing for you. And when the police got to him, he got scared. He just got scared for his own sake, man. And he was like, I don't want to go to prison forever. What do you want to know? I mean, that's the thing about snitching is everyone says don't snitch, no snitch. But then when it's like, well, you got 40 years in prison or you can snitch.

1:07:26And then suddenly the reality hits people. Well, yeah, I got to look for that. I call him my little brother because me and my ex-wife raised him. It's her little brother. And he just got five years for murder. But what? I mean, hey, the dude that was with him did the murder. And my little brother didn't know he was doing the murder. I see. We got out and blew somebody's head off on a motorcycle. My little brother only got five years. But he got like 15 years because he had a whole bunch of other shit too. But they know he wasn't part of the murder, so definitely getting five years short. Have you ever diagnosed yourself for any mental situations like ADHD or anything?

1:08:05Myself? Well, not diagnosed yourself, but have you been like, are you officially anything at ADHD? Yeah, I have ADHD, dyslexia. intermittent explosive anger disorder PTSD extreme PTSD extreme anxiety did I say bipolar 1 and 2 yet? no that's what I've been diagnosed with by the doctor what's some of your favorite music musicians? Tupac I listen to rock music like death metal heavy heavy heavy death metal you know like you know, Rammstein, Slipknot. Slipknot, yeah. Okay. I was going to say Slipknot. Break shit music.

1:08:53ICP? Yeah, yeah. I went to ICP concert. They're fucking hilarious, bro. Oh my gosh, I bet they are. Bunch of clowns. Yeah. Okay. Where were we? Oh yeah. December 2010, Nathan, his brother, and his brother's wife, Elizabeth, were all in jail. And Nathan's brother and Elizabeth had kids. His son with Elizabeth is with his grandparents. And then his other son with his other wife is with his first baby mama. And my three kids were with my baby mama. But when I got arrested, my kids were with my parents. When my wife left me, she left me with no car, no nothing, and three kids. Like, she paints this whole story.

1:09:36She got everybody pictured this whole story that I'm the evil person. You abandoned me and the kid. Yeah. I feel like I abandoned them eventually anyways because I went to prison for so long, so I feel like I abandoned them too, though. And I did. But at the time, when you have no means of making money, when I was 17, I got my first computer job working for Southwestern Bell doing tech support for Pacific Bell, Nevada Bell, and Southwestern Bell. I used to work for Microsoft, bro. I used to work for Rario Web Hosting. I worked in Network Operations Center. I could have had a promising computer career, but I fucked it all off because of drugs.

1:10:16I was doing cocaine. I was doing lines of cocaine when I worked for Earthlink, isn't it? Earthlink? Yeah, I remember Earthlink dial-up. Yeah. I was doing lines of cocaine on the desk with the trainer. With the trainer? The trainer from Seattle would come down, come get me. We'd go to Oak Cliff, give him some cocaine. He'd smoke cocaine on top of a weed and a tobacco pipe, and I'd do lines of cocaine on the table. He'd be like, I'm going to go get Michael. We're going to go work on some training material. We do all this on the clock. Crazy motherfuckers. Okay.

1:10:51I don't think... I had to hack Earthlink, bro. They tried to fuck us, bro. I crashed their stock, bro. This is like... What? Yeah. I cracked their stock, bro. So, like, it was Earthlink-Mindspring merger, right? Yeah. Sprint took over, basically, because they own 80 % of Earthlink. Like, that's the way back when they had that URL shortener called cjb.net. Remember cjb? No. It was a URL shortener. So I made elnsucks.cjb.net. I worked in Network Operations Center, bro, so I had access to the server room and everything, you know? And so I got into the company, the president of the company's emails, and him and the vice president and people on the board and shit were talking about how they fuck over their customers, how fucking, because their service was shit, bro.

1:11:34It was trash. and uh it was just uh anyway so I posted these documents all these confidential information about how they got hacked one time and they didn't report it to nobody but that back then you didn't have to uh so I released all this I put it on cjb.net website just a little html thing with some snippets from the uh emails and fucking I started spamming fucking msn and y 'all ho stock message boards and their fucking stock went from like $32 down to$18 damn cause like Like, this company comes in here and they're now got all these new employees. And now they're trying to renege on what they said they were going to do.

1:12:11You know what I'm saying? I'm always for the little man. You know what I'm saying? I always stand up for the little man. But I never went back. Yeah. I bet you didn't. Yeah. Man, we get off track fast in this one. All right. Yeah. Still, Nathan, his brother, and Elizabeth are all in jail. Elizabeth pleads guilty. And his brother pleads guilty. and the two boys actually said that they coerced Elizabeth into doing it so this meant she got less time in jail and so she ended up serving two years in jail. His little brother got four years in prison and the last one to face trial was Nathan. I pled guilty.

1:12:46His parents didn't give me access to my fraud and I went to prison. He was sentenced to four years and three months in prison. Three months more than his brother. Yeah, I ended up doing all of it. My brother ended up doing all of it too. And you know, I mean, I went to prison I lived like a rock star the whole time I was in prison. I stayed high on K2 and drinking moonshine. The hell is K2? That's a vitamin. No, K2 is like synthetic marijuana. Oh, my God. Okay. So you do your four years, three months in prison. You get out, and then you're a good boy after that, and you've reformed. You did self-rehabilitation in prison.

1:13:19You're right. Got out. I got out of the halfway house. When I got out of the halfway house, I got seven violations the first week I was out. For drugs. driving while intoxicated, getting caught in a stolen car, fucking... But it wasn't a stolen car, it was a rental. It just didn't get taken back when it was supposed to. But being out of district, not reporting it to my probation officer, and she told me, Mr. Michael, do you want to go back to jail? Or do you want to go to... Then they put me on the code shit, the color code shit, and I had to go to intensive drug treatment program, go one-on-one counseling for six months straight.

1:13:55Now, I think a lot of people might have gotten out early because of good behavior. It's surprising to me that you had to serve the entire sentence. There was no good behavior for you. I discharged my federal sentence and my state sentence. I stayed in medium-closed custody. I'm a knucklehead. I didn't listen to the police in the world. Why am I going to go to prison and start listening to them? To get out early and see your kids. Yeah, but I wasn't thinking about that. The way they treat people in prison, bro, is inhumane. So if they treat an animal, why aren't you going to act like an animal?

1:14:29Okay. So if they leave me in a cage 23 hours a day and they let me out an hour a day, what am I going to do when I get out for that hour? It's just like locking a dog in a cage for 23 hours a day and letting him out. All right. So you get out of prison, and how does it go wrong after that? Well, I got a girl pregnant, and I was at the hotel. and I was sitting there one day. I was like, man, I had three different businesses in three different rooms. And I know what to do. In one hotel? Yeah. Man, what's the secret to your Riz? How are you attracting so many of these girls? What's crazy is, bro, like my brother always asks me the same things.

1:15:12He's like, how do you get so much pussy? How do you get so much? I don't know, bro. I don't go chasing pussy, bro. It's just like, that's what I always tell people. I pose and get chose. I just chill and be still, bro. It comes to me. It's crazy.

1:15:26I'm going to try that. I'll see if it works. I mean, it works. Me and my girlfriend broke up four months ago, and she's been dragging me for four months. And I finally cut her completely off about a week ago, and I got two chicks already. They're like 45, and I'm still upgrading.

1:15:49Okay. Okay, so you're in a hotel with three different ladies in the hotel, and you're looking at it like, man, how am I supposed to juggle this? Keep going. Yeah, so it's like, you know, and then the guy that was down here at the lake with us, he was originally involved in our fucking Fed case, but he was one of the ones that didn't tell us, stayed stiff, and starts fucking with him again. And then me and him are out in fucking Fort Worth. We're going to Chili's because they had them kiosks where you just swipe right at the fucking table. Yeah, so despite serving four years in prison, Nathan went right back to carding, getting stolen credit cards, printing them on blank cards and using them to buy stuff in the stores himself.

1:16:30He was doing all his old tricks, wearing disguises and buying gift cards from Home Depot and Walmart. Oh, yeah, and using them to get free food at Chili's. Since the ordering system is right there at the table, you could just keep trying different cards until you find one that actually works and pays for your food without the server getting suspicious, right? So he's riding in the car with this guy, and they're on their way to get food at Chili's. Like, we're turning to get onto the highway, and he runs a red light with three cops parked at the red light right across the street. The dude ended up being a snitch, right?

1:17:03My brother's got a couple of pending felonies because of him right now. And my brother kept fucking with the dude, and I told my brother the old time, he's a snitch, he's a snitch. Because everybody, you know, people talk. You said he was a stiff guy, though, and he didn't, though. But he ended up, he's not stiff now. Oh. He was just in another state in like Virginia or somewhere. And he was in there for like three felonies, like larceny and a whole bunch of other shit. And he said they gave him time served in county for felonies. Where the fuck do they do that at? Oh, yeah. County is not a felony place.

1:17:34You can't serve felony time in county. No. I don't think anywhere. I mean, I studied federal law. I can imagine like maybe a few weeks before they transfer you to the right place, but not your whole duration. You might get time credited towards your felony, but you're not going to do your felony time there. I agree with you. And then he went to Alabama. And then he bought another night back here. Okay. So was this guy high or stoned when he was driving around like that? Yeah, of course we were. I was high on GHB. And he was high on fucking math and GHB probably. All right. So you're leaving Chili's.

1:18:07You're speeding through. We're going to Chili's. We're going to Chili's. Going through red lights. Right past cop cars. Keep going. I push right Pull in right behind us Turn the lights on He pulls right over Doesn't even fucking drive five feet He pulls up Slams on the brake Pulls over I got rid of all my cards bro The cops didn't catch me with no cards They didn't catch me with no plastic You threw him out the window? Nah I put him down the side The side of the window Down into the door Oh it's smart Yeah right in the glass Okay Yeah Yeah They didn't catch me with no cards They didn't catch me with no gift cards Everything everything.

1:18:43They caught them. They caught my co-defendants with everything. They got 10 years deferred probation. Probation has never been an option for me. They've never given me probation or offered me probation. Wait, so when the car got pulled over, is that when you went to jail or you got off? Yeah, I went to jail that night. Well, how? Because you didn't have the cards. How'd they know it was you? The cops got the receipts. The car's packed full of shit. Oh, yeah. that was just the last place we went was Home Depot and so we just got all this shit and they ended up opening up a box a security camera box we got the MSR in it and shit and they just they they run my name and they see what I was in federal prison for and they're like what's access to wife fraud so they always ask me every time I get pulled over what's access to wife fraud you ever lose your credit card or you get stolen

1:19:37it's interesting how vivid Nathan's memories are in those moments right before being arrested. That must be like a flashbulb moment for a lot of people, you know? Like, you remember it so perfectly clear. It's almost like those are the last moments of freedom that his brain holds on to. Or maybe he replays those moments again and again in his head to try to think what he could have done differently. Anyway, the cops found swiping equipment in the car and quickly put the pieces together that he was still doing swiping. So they arrested him and took him to jail again This time he pled guilty And they sentenced him to eight years in prison And the main crime they were saying he did Is that he swiped a stolen card at Home Depot And bought$2 ,200 worth of gift cards Okay, so this is the second time you go into prison?

1:20:29Yeah Eight years they put you in for? For$2 ,200? Like, that's a lot up for just such a small amount I mean, but they know I was doing more than that, though. So what they, I mean, what were they? It's not a bad thing. Like, Texas, I mean, you know how fucked up the legal system is. It's fucked up in every state, I'm sure. It is, but what were they saying your charges were? I mean, it wasn't just the$2 ,200. We're swiping for$2 ,200. They're charging with engaging or criminal activity.

1:21:03So it was your felony. The first one was they were saying you did a million dollars in damage. What were they saying here? They didn't say nothing. They just said$2 ,200 was shipped from fucking— It's just so hard that there's eight years in prison for$2 ,200 stolen. Tell me about it. Because they didn't charge me. See, like if I would have got caught in Dallas, bro, they would have charged me with credit card fraud and abuse. It would have been a state jail felony maximum two years. But since I was out there and I got caught with two other people, they're doing this shit in Texas now, and they're charging people with basically a conspiracy in the state.

1:21:35it's crazy at that time it's not a dollar amount anymore see so like it goes up and higher towards how much the dollar amount it is but once you're charged once you get the enhancement of engaging or external activity it's enhanced from a second degree felony to a first degree felony and then therefore nah geez man okay they're trying to give me 15 bro 15 my homeboy paid$10 ,000 for a lawyer for me in the state and they came down to 8 so I took the 8 and you went to prison for 8 years yeah and self reformed while there and got out and now you're a good boy now I'm a good boy okay we made it is it true?

1:22:27are you doing good now? everything I do now is ethical Okay. So that's... But, you know, it took all that and all the trauma that I went through and what happened to my kids while I was in prison and my dad died while I was in prison and everything for me to finally wake up. What happens to your dad? My dad died when I was in prison, bro. It was horrible. Like, two worst fears that something happened to my kids and I'm not being there when I was in prison. And then something happened to one of my parents while I was in prison. Something happened to my kids while I was in prison and my dad died while I was in prison.

1:22:58My two worst fears came to fruition. I was in prison the second time. How did your dad die? He had a heart attack, I think. I mean, he was in the hospital, and his blood was septic and shit. He had a bad heart. He had health conditions for like 15 years. Pretty much his heart. He wouldn't quit eating salt, bro. That's awful, man. I'm sorry you went through that. Yeah. You know, he always promised he'd be there and shit. At the end of the day, I took peace in it because I knew my dad loved me, And I know he knows I love Jim. So I find peace in it and that. But I never have to ask the questions that you always want to ask your dad when you get older, you know?

1:23:35Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I never have to ask your dad when you get older, you know?

1:23:41Okay. God damn. It's crazy. And that's just a snippet. That's just the one moment. That's just a bliff on the radar. I was mature at a lot of your older ages I don't think it finally clicked for me until I was about 38 So did you serve all 8 years? Yeah And I went back for violation after that and they fucking held me for another fucking 4 months for the cocksuckers For violation, yeah So that's 4 years plus 8 years that's 12 years Like with the extra time that I had to do for the violation and all the extra days and shit. I was pretty much about 13 years. Yeah, 13 years. And I was thinking, you have three kids now, and two of those were there for the first one, and one was there for the second, right?

1:24:34So that's... Well, no, all three of them were there. My 16-year-old that's here with me today, she was there. She was like one year and two months when I got arrested and went to the feds. For the first time. I missed her whole life. I missed her whole life. Yeah, yeah. The middle one was three when I first got locked up, and the oldest one was six when I first got locked up. My mom gets three years apart. Yeah, that's a huge gap to not see that. That must be really hard. That's the hardest part right there. That's the hardest part. Because you can't ever get the time back. And now they're grown and doing their own thing, so you don't get the time that you want.

1:25:10You know what I mean? Yeah, they're on their own schedule now. Yeah. But, you know, I'm in their life, and we have good relationships. at least I do I have good relationships with the youngest and the oldest for sure the middle one she still has a lot of resentment she's but she'll get there okay you know their mother painted a bad picture of me she made me look like the monster and what it was we were both young and stupid at the end of the day you know and we both made bad decisions neither one of those were perfect that's the reality of it and but I take responsibility for all of it because I'm the man you know what I mean Okay Yeah I mean The mom was part of that Walmart scam anyway So I know that she's not the cleanest You know we both cheated on each other And all that shit you know

1:26:03What a crazy story I know man like fucking And you know all I want to do now Is like when we were kids growing up We didn't have nobody to look up to Yeah We didn't have hackers That fucking been doing this shit their whole lives To look up to Because it started with us Are you telling me you want to be someone that people look up to? I want to be the one that helps save the world, and I want to help kids. I want to help children, bro. I want to help kids. You? I want to make the world a better place. I'm going to come out with the first jailbreak for the fucking robots, bro. You better buy my shit.

1:26:37I'm going to start preaching on the jailbreak for robots right now.

1:26:43Okay, you're going to save us from the robots. I mean, who else is going to save us from the digital world? That could be a fair redemption. When the robots turn on us and the computers turn on us, who's going to save us? It's not going to be fucking Joe down the street just working on your car. It's not going to be crooked at McDonald's just making your burger. It's going to be you. Well, not just me. It's going to be all of us. Okay. I will buy your shit when it comes to this. Robots could just take over and just kill us all. No, you got to save us now. I'm hoping you're going to do it. According to AI, we have a 50 % chance to survive AI and we have a 50 % chance to survive robots.

1:27:26Okay. I think if you've survived all this, then you've got a fair chance of surviving the rest of whatever's coming. I don't know how you made it this far. I mean, because I wake up every day with a smile on my face no matter what happened before. How many times did you come close to dying in your life? I was in a coma when I first got out. I had overdosed and by the time I got to the hospital, I was, uh, breathing at 30%. So they put me in an induced coma. And when I tried waking up, I went crazy on them and tried fighting them all. Yeah. I couldn't feel my legs, so I sat up in my bed and told them to lie.

1:28:02I thought I was having flashbacks when I was in prison. I ripped my restraints off and everything. They had to have like eight people holding me down and hit me with like three things to put me to sleep. And then fucking they got off of me and they started tying me back up and I woke back up on their bitch ass. Jesus. Okay, so that was one time being close to death. Any other times? When I was probably about 15, huffing some air. I had a little airsoft gun to paint model cars with. And I was huffing the air, and my dad woke me up, and I was choking on my throw-up. My bed was covered in throw-up, and I was laying on my back.

1:28:39I would have died, and my dad didn't wake up and come get me. Yeah, see, this is what I mean. You've survived all these things. Not only that, but all the shootings in your neighborhood, and probably stabbing them in prison. They saw it in stab. Prison was worse. Like when we first got to Leavenworth, there was fixing to be a riot between the Serenios and the Whites and over a TV. Yeah. And I was able to let her, there's probably about, at least, we made probably about 200 steaks that night. Looked like vampire steaks, but knives. And that's your arrival. And they're like, you got to join a side.

1:29:12Come on. We're fixing for war. Jesus Christ. That's what a wedding joint. There you get pushed over. It's just like in the world. You're in a shark full of tanks. Are you going to be a guppy or are you going to become a shark? Oh, man. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying is if you've survived all that, then I think that you're good for the rest of your life. You've cashed in all your lucky chips. I've been in prison three years now, so my versatility rate of going back to prison is pretty fucking low. Yeah, yeah. And your survival rate is pretty high. You've gone through the worst things of your life, and you're still doing good.

1:29:43I mean, you're still alive. I'm not doing good. I'm still struggling. but I'm free. I got my freedom. I got my health. I got the people that love me around me. You know what I'm saying? So that's my blood. That's my zen. I say we leave it as that. Walking off into the sunset with your loved ones near you. It was good talking to you. Alright, man. Thanks for sharing your story. Bye. Have a good one.

1:30:18Thank you so much to Nathan Michael for sharing this story with us. What a wild life he's lived. And he's only 45 now, so he's got a great big life ahead of him. And I'm certain it'll be drama-free from here on out. I've got your next favorite shirt already. It's at shop.darknetdiaries.com. Have you looked at the shirts there? If not, why not? I mean, I'm telling you right now, I made a special shirt just for you. And I want you to go there and see if you can find it. It will be the one that you absolutely love as soon as you see it. And this show is also brought to you by our premium supporters who donate each month to show their support for this show.

1:30:58Premium supporters get an ad-free version of the show and they get 11 bonus episodes that they can listen to right now. If you think this show brings you value, please consider supporting it. Just go to plus.darknetdiaries.com. This show is made by me, Lil Bite, Jack Lee Sider. Our editor is the keystroker, Tristan Ledger. Mixing done by Proximity Sound, and our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Knock, knock. Who's there? Dishes. Dishes who? Dishes, Darknet Diaries.

1:31:42We'll be right back.