The Simple Genius of Rick Rubin

32:57And often in a conversation, you'll be with someone and they'll be saying, something and you'll be thinking about, okay, this is what I'm going to say in response to that. You're not really present back and forth. That's what it is. Like two people waiting for their turn to say what they think. And this is different. And it really, I think it came from listening to music because I listen to music in a very deep way. I close my eyes. I really pay attention. It's not wallpaper. It's like I go into the music. In some ways, I think my relationship with music allowed me to never drink or take drugs because listening to music for me is totally a psychedelic experience.

33:43I can feel the music and I can be transported by the music. Not all music, but good music. So I close my eyes, I feel it. And then at the end of it, I open my eyes and I'm surprised where I am because I've been gone when I'm listening. So I listen deeply and I want to know. I really want to understand things. So I'm comfortable asking questions and I really listen to what someone's saying. And if someone says something I don't understand, I'll ask a question to clarify so that I can understand it. I also don't have any judgment. I don't think that I I have a way that like my way is the right way.

34:25And I'm not comparing what's being said to me about what I think. What I think is not part of it. I'm just, I just want to truly understand what's being shared with me. And if someone says something that's very different than what I believe, I want to know more. It's like, how did he get to that? Why do you think that? Because maybe I'll learn something. Maybe I have it wrong, you know, like that. I don't know anything. I want to know more. So through talking to people and really listening, you really get to meet people. And as a professional listener, I found some people, it's disarming to talk to someone who really listens because it's so rare.

35:07Most people don't listen. When I listen to your podcast, I feel you have this combination of like sincere interest in the other human being. Yes. and a desire i think you just said this but the way i think about it is the way i think about you when i listen to your podcast is like a desire not to form an opinion but to understand that's it that's it i just want to understand i want to understand to broaden my scope to see the world i want to see the world through your eyes you know i want to see the world through someone made something that's beautiful to me i want to understand how they see the world someone makes a great discovery i want to know what was the process that allowed that to happen i'm curious yeah it doesn't seem to be an end to your curiosity either i'm interested i've always been interested i think of myself as a researcher i've always like when the internet came along anything that i'm interested in i'll go forever going deeper and deeper and deeper into a topic just to get any glimpse and to read opposing opinions and go deeper and deeper and deeper and just try and understand.

36:20I'm curious. You think of yourself as a researcher. Yeah. That's what I do most of the time is research. Okay. I don't know about this. Tell me about this. Well, not a researcher in a professional way, but anything I'm interested in, I want to know everything about it, whatever it is. And even mundane things. If I drink coffee, I want to taste a million coffee. I want to find the best coffee. I want to read what every person who knows about the best machine says about every machine and then test every machine. And it's just a fanatical devotion to finding the best version of whatever it is. Is it all consuming for you when you find these pockets of interest?

37:04I'd say so. There's no end. And I don't get to an end to that process. I admire people that do things for a very long period of time. And you can tell a lot about people by what they admire. It's like, I want to do these kind of podcasts till I die. Like, it's like, what's your strategy? What's successful in five years, in 10 years? One, that I'm still doing it. And two, I'm just making things that I'm proud of. That's it. There's no fucking download number. There's no how many ads I sell. It's just like, that's it. And I'm terrified that one day, you know, I'm going to wake up and be like, I don't want to do this anymore.

37:35No, but the only reason that would happen is because something else would take over that you have to do. And that would be fine, too. That's so terrifying. When I was nine years old, I spent a lot of time practicing magic, like card magic in front of a mirror. And that was really fun. And there's a whole community of magicians. And I was just a little kid, but like grown-up magicians. And if you're truly interested in magic, there are all these meetings. and they get together and talk about stuff. And if you're an outsider, everything's a secret. But if you're a magician, they love sharing. So it's a really cool community to be part of.

38:13And that was my community from nine until probably 16. Those were the people I hung out with and that were the people that we shared this interest and I just wanted to learn. And then music became more and more popular in my life. Like music became, and then at some point it's like, I can't do both. These are both full-time occupations. And when I say occupations, I don't mean jobs. I mean something to occupy my time. I can either devote myself to doing magic or devote myself to doing music. And at some point, music won. But that wasn't a loss. I didn't lose anything. That's a beautiful way to think about it.

38:58Yeah. It's like I let go of the thing that I loved for this other thing that I loved that just took on this new life. And I've done music for a long time and I like making other things too. And if it became, if my life became about making other things more than making music, that'd be okay. It's more about the making that excites me. This is why I kept asking, like, do you think you would like making a podcast? Like we can have a conversation. we could be doing your show right now instead of mine and at the end of this hour or two hours like we have it's done we have something we can do it again tomorrow like the the amount of time from you know creation to output is so much shorter than an album or even a great song true and if you're what you're saying i think you called yourself a lazy workaholic i'm saying lazy alcoholic lazy workaholic yeah like it's almost like this doesn't work this doesn't feel like work to me.

39:57I feel like I was a little surprised with the way you described working in music that does feel like work to you. For sure. It's also work because I have to show up. If you commit to be somewhere at a certain time, that's work. Because that morning I might wake up and think, I don't really want to do that today. But it's agreed to with other people. I'm going to be at this place and we're going to do this thing, so I have to show up. But most days, I don't want to do the things that I'm scheduled to do. Now, at the time that I choose to do them, I want to do them. I know I want to do them, but still, it's really nice not to have to get out of bed or it's nice to go for a walk on the beach.

40:42So I think I might be well positioned. I'm just now getting advice from you because I'm a huge fan of you and I respect the way you think. Anyways, I just did another podcast on the book you wrote, Creative Act, by the way. And there's so many ideas that you put into words that are in my head that I didn't have words for in there. So if I, right now, I feel like this is, I don't work a day in my life. I feel like I wake up and I'm like compelled or like, I don't even know the word to use it. Like, then there's no doubt that I'm just on the right path. If I was sitting here and we weren't recording and I was just seeking your advice, like, I don't feel it's at work at all.

41:16The only time it feels like work is when I have to edit, which I fucking hate, but I do it anyways because I think it makes it better. Yeah. But that's the only time. It's a good example. There are parts of it that are not always fun. And when you're committing time, like time is our most valuable resource. And when we're committing our time to doing something in advance, which we do, we pre-schedule the day of, you don't always want to do that thing. But I feel you have complete control over your time and your life. Yes. How are you still... I choose it. And I have to acknowledge, no one's forcing me to do this.

41:54I said I would show up. I have to show up. But in your day-to-day, that still feels like work. Yeah, it's like, I'd be happy not doing anything. Well, I don't know. I don't know if that's true. There's no way. It's never been the case. I've always. Because you could have stopped working decades ago. Yes. And I think you're addicted to making great shit. Yes. And I'm lazy. It's a real part of it. I'm telling you an honest piece of this, which is every day, it's not like, let's go. Every day, it's like, oh, no, I got to go work. You're disappointing me. I'm sad. I'm sad. But it doesn't feel like it feels like out of almost anybody in the world that gets paid for being them.

42:40Yeah. Is you. Yes. And you're saying that's not the case. No, I'm me. I'm definitely me. there is a part of me that doesn't want to show up for anything and I have to overcome that every day that's what I'm saying did you ever spend any time with Tony Bourdain when he was alive never have were you ever a fan of any of his yeah okay so I read all his books watch all shows and in his book I was shocked because that guy yeah first of all like in his book he describes what it's like to be a heroin addict which is insane and the amount what you realize when you read kitchen confidential is like the same work ethic he used to score drugs as a junk as a broke junkie once he broke that habit he just applied it to writing and building tv shows like his work ethic was the same which was directed the worst thing possible being a fucking heroin addict and then he directed in a positive generative direction and he took off but he said something very similar to you he's like somewhere deep inside me is this guy that just wants to smoke weed and lay in bed all day and he goes i have to fight his writing is beautiful he's like i have to fight that guy every single day.

43:40Yeah. Now, what's also true, I do have to fight that guy to show up, and there are parts of the job that are just like watching paint dry, waiting for something good to happen. But that moment of magic when something good does happen is the thing I'm addicted to. That feeling of it wasn't good, it's not good, oh my God, it's good. And it's like a miracle because nobody knows how or why that happened. It's not in our control. That's the other thing about it. It really is magic. So I'm addicted to the magic part of it, but I'm not addicted to everything leading up to those magical moments. I'm patient.

44:26I'm patient enough to wait forever for that thing to happen. But it's not fun. Like some people really look forward to fishing. It's like fishing. It's like you can go out and spend a whole day fishing and not catch any fish. It's like that. You can work in the studio for a day or for a week and nothing good can happen. That happens. It's out of our control. But when the good thing happens, it's like, ah, there it is. That's why we're here. That fishing analogy is really important to me. I've heard you say this a few years ago. It's the best example. I heard Akon one time describe working with Eminem.

45:03and he shows up into Detroit and he gives them a call. He's like, all right, I figure we're going to do a night session. You know, these guys are usually nocturnal. Calls them at like 7 p.m. And Em's like, yeah, I'll see you tomorrow. And Acon's like, tomorrow? Like, what are you talking about? Shows up and doesn't realize that he treats it like a job. Shows up at 9 a.m., right? He's in the studio writing, like you're saying, recording verses. I think it's like, let's say noon. He literally be in the middle of a verse. They're like, oh, I'll be right back. I'm going to take lunch. And he's like, what?

45:32But he goes, comes back at one, goes back to work, five o 'clock. He says, all right, see you the next day. And people misunderstood what Akon was saying. It's like he doesn't wait around for inspiration. He shows up every day knowing that if he does the work, then it will come. That's exactly what you're saying about fishing. Yeah. And inspiration is a real thing too, but it's both. Like if you only wait for inspiration, it won't ever come. You have to work and be there and show up. If you're not in the practice of allowing the thing to happen, it won't happen. Doesn't mean it will. Just because you do show up doesn't mean it will happen.

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47:25if you artificially constrain yourself, it forces you to be more creative. Can you talk about this? I feel like you've used this a bunch in your career. Yeah, it's like the idea of creating a palette. And the albums that speak to me most are ones when you hear them, you know if an artist has 20 albums, but you hear a song, you know, oh, that has to be on that album, that seventh album, because that's the only album that sounds like that. Even though the band always sounds like the band, this group of songs sounds different than all the rest. And it may be that it was either recorded in a different way or all the songs were about a particular thing or they're using different instrumentation than they used to use.

48:10I like it when an album stands alone outside of an artist's career as a defining moment in time. It's not just more of the same. But how is that tied to these constraints that you put on the work? That happens by coming up with like a series of rules that only apply to this project. Those are the constraints. So that could be... In the Johnny Cash example. In Johnny Cash's case, the first one was, I didn't know that it was going to be an acoustic album, which it turned out to be. but that was something that through the process of recording, I learned the most interesting version of this to me is when he's singing alone, which is really the demos in my living room, him singing me songs.

48:59That sounded better than when we went into the recording studio with musicians and played them with a band. It wasn't as interesting. I didn't know that in advance. That wasn't a premeditated idea. And then in terms of the material that he would sing, I grew up with this image. What spoke to me about Johnny Cash was this image of the man in black. And the man in black is a mythical character. Yes, Johnny Cash, but it's not just Johnny Cash. It's like the mythical Johnny Cash, the Johnny Cash who's the man in black. And the man Johnny Cash could sing a funny song. The man in black probably wouldn't sing a funny song.

49:43So the material that we picked was always through the eyes of, what's something with Man in Black, the legendary mythological character? What would he sing? And those are the songs that we chose. And so in this case, the constraints are you, Johnny, a guitar. I think he said he didn't even use a pick. It was like his fingers. Every guitar, every time he strung the guitar was his fingers. Yeah. And you guys in a house. Yeah, but a big part of it too is the choice of material. That's a big part of it for those albums. And it's looked at to the viewpoint of not a funny song, but a man in black will do this.

50:23And not even just a funny song. It had to have a certain amount of gravitas to fit a mythical character singing it. When I think about everything I've read about you and as much as I've heard you speak, it's like I feel like you would agree with the statement that great things can't be made by a committee. Correct. It would be unusual for that to be the case. In many cases, it's just... It tends to water it down. It tends to water it down. So this is the case in companies, since obviously my main focus is on entrepreneurship. It's like even if there's a group, there's usually like a main person.

50:58Is that the same thing in bands? Is there always like one... There might be four guys in the band or five guys in the band. Is it usually the stronger personality that has more influence? In a band, what makes a band great is how the different musicians hear music and play together. And it doesn't have to be a single point of view. The Beatles are a great example because John and Paul really were very different people and wrote different kinds of songs and approached music in different ways. Jagger and Richards, same. There's opposition there. That goes against exactly what you said. It's a different model.

51:39But then like in Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Tom Petty is really the flag bearer of the band. And everyone lines up behind Tom. They're all great. And they all can play great things. And they all add incredible things. But Tom is sort of the final word in what happens in that band. In a band like U2, it's democratic. Everybody in the band has to like it. If three of the guys like it and one of the guys doesn't, it doesn't happen. And that's another model that works for them. So if we go back to this designing in constraints, your work with Johnny Cash is very simple. Go back all the way 40 years before that.

52:22I'm reducing. I'm not producing. I think in 2023, I listened to, I don't know, 600 to 700 individual. Probably listened to two or three podcast episodes a day. So, I don't know, 700, 900 episodes. I think the single best podcast episode that I listened to all that year was your episode on Tetragrammaton with Jimmy Iovine. There was a story that you told in there that was very fascinating because Jimmy's like, I think, 10 years older than you. Kind of like 10 years. Almost exactly 10 years older. We're a day where our birthdays are a day apart. Yeah. And you tell this phenomenal story on the podcast of one of the first, maybe the first time you met Jimmy Iovine, he said something that was so strange.

52:57You go to play something you're working on. Yeah. And he goes, I wish I could still make something that simple. Yeah. And your response was, I'm sure you can. Yeah, what do you mean? Explain why he said that and what's happening, what happens over time. Yeah, because he was a producer. And as you learn more of what you can do, you tend to do that. You tend to, they tend to get bigger. At that point in time, I hadn't done it enough. it was my first record so it was that was the the cult electric was my first rock record this is after a almost a decade in hip-hop or half a decade in hip-hop no no no when was this same like same time oh okay okay yeah this is like 19 is this when you moved to california no this is still in new york oh shit okay so give me i'm still living in the dorm i'm still living in the dorm at nyu yeah i thought this was okay so this is the very beginning so it's as simple Because that's all you can do.

53:58Yeah, I was doing what I was very simple, but I stayed true to that as much as I can. There have probably been a couple of examples along the way where I may have not stayed true. Very few. If you look at my whole recorded discography, there may be two or three examples where it got out of control. Or where the artist that I'm working with just had a very different vision, which does happen sometimes. and usually we end up not working together again. And there have been one or two occasions where we end up not even finishing a work because it's just too, we just see it in a different way. I had that experience with Joe Cocker.

54:36We went into the studio to record and I had a specific vision of how I saw Joe Cocker and what I thought was great about Joe Cocker. And he really had a vision of it being something different than that. And we weren't on the same page and it didn't job. So it never happened. I'm curious your perspective since you've known Jimmy Iovine for so long, because he has another singular career where he kind of in music the whole time, but jumped around. Yeah, different job from engineer to producer to record company owner to then building businesses with his artists. What do you think is special about him?

55:16What's unique about him? Why was he able to do what he was able to do? He's got good taste and he's got a great work ethic. Those are the two. To me, in my mind, you two are very almost, before this conversation I'm having with you, almost at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Where I felt like you were just like drawn, you know, like a moth to a flame about what you want to do. Where he's like, it was always work. I never liked it. It was always a job. I like certain parts of it, but he essentially just forced himself to do it. He said something really interesting that I thought really summed it up, which was, Jimmy is in the banking business.

55:50These are his words. He said, I'm in the banking business and you're in the church business. And that's the difference. Explain that. I love this. It said, I'm doing a passion and belief. And he's doing a bottom line, what's going to work? What's going to be good for business? And it's just two different things, two different mentalities. There's a great line in The Defiant Ones where he hears, he's producing Tom Petty. And he hears a song. He goes, this is house music. And Tom goes, what do you mean? He goes, he goes, find me, you know, whatever. It's eight more albums. He goes, that song's going to buy you a house.

56:28Yeah, so we're different in that way. And Tom goes, I've never heard somebody describe music that way. He's going to buy me a house. Yeah. There's a bunch of stories that Jimmy tells in that podcast with you about the crazy things that you see in the music business. You know, where I think he tells a story of like Phil Spector coming to the studio with like a butcher's, in a butcher's outfit. And he's got like guns strapped to him everywhere. And David Geffen's in the studio and John Lennon's getting drunk. Do you have any like things that stand out from you? I've never heard you here tell any of these like stories of stuff you've seen inside the studio.

57:06I can remember doing a session with ODB, Old Dirty Bastard. Wu-Tang Clan. From Wu-Tang. And I remember being nervous because I'd never met him before and his reputation preceded him. So I didn't really know what I was going into. and um and i thought i'm gonna i'm gonna bring my dog i had a pulley which is a dog that has dreadlocks and i'll be and that would be whatever's going on if you see a dog with dreadlocks it's interesting like it it it doesn't it's fascinating in its own way and i had a friend of mine also filming everything because i thought well if there's a camera and if there's a dog it's going to be okay.

57:49What was his reputation for you to do this, though? All kinds of crazy things. Violence? Could be violence. Could be a lot of things that would not be good. Yeah. And just things I wasn't really prepared for. But I loved him. You know, I was a fan. And I remember we walked in, and he looked, and he pointed at the dog, and he said, he's okay, and then he pointed at the camera, he's got to go. It's like, okay. And then he went. And then the session ended up going pretty well. We mentioned Toby Luque earlier. And in the conversation I had with him that was very fascinating, he said something where he's just like, there's not like one right way to do things.

58:31There's probably a hundred, which I think you would agree with. And he's like, you just have to find the one that fits best for you. And just do that. And you would think this like German computer programmer engineer would be like very rigid. but when you talk to him, he essentially just runs his life by all intuition. Yeah. You are all intuition. All intuition. Like explain like why you essentially, your entire life is just, in my opinion, like managed or run by your intuitive feelings. Yeah. I've always been true to what I feel and it's worked out. I suppose if it didn't work out, then maybe I would have to try something else.

59:12But it's the fact that I've stayed true to what feels right to me. And luckily, by the grace of God, it has resonated with other people. It allows me to continue doing it. But I suppose if that didn't happen, I would just make things for myself on a small level and keep doing it and have a real job. Is this your guided by intuition tied to I feel you have a skepticism of human knowledge? I think you say like I think we know very little about everything. Yeah. Thomas Edison has this famous quote where he's like, we don't know one one thousandth percent of anything. Yeah. I believe that. I believe we don't know anything.

59:50Yeah. So if you believe you don't know anything, then what is the only other thing you could do is be guided by your intuition. Yeah. And to try things and see what works. And just because one thing works doesn't mean that's the way that that's the way it happens. That's a way that happened to work in that case. I found one of my all time favorite quotes when I was reading the book Zero to One. The quote says, the single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places. And they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas.

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1:01:08So you want to get started quickly before all your competitors are on Axon. And you can do that by going to axon.ai forward slash Senra. That is axon.ai forward slash Senra. I heard you one time compare and contrast the approach of Jay-Z to Eminem. Yeah. You work with both of them. Can you talk about just how different they are? Yeah. Em is much more, well, he writes down the lyrics, and he's really studious in the way that he works. And he'll also record take after take after take after it's written and try different things. Jay is much more spontaneous. It all happens in his head, and then he'll get up and say it once or twice, and that's it.

1:01:58What's the energy when you're in the room with both of them, though? Em is totally involved in every aspect of everything. And Jay is like, play me a bunch of stuff. If I hear something I like, I'll think about it. And if not, I'll see you tomorrow. He's like, Jay will only be there when he needs to be there. And if he hears something that sparks an idea, he'll sit and just say, play it over and over again. Play the music over and over again. and he sits in the back and you almost, it goes on long enough where you forget he's even there because he's just silent in the corner, listening, sitting on a couch, listening over and over again.

1:02:3830 minutes, 25 minutes later, it was like, I got it, jumps up. He runs into the room, hit record, and he does the whole thing just from his head. It's amazing. He's the only person I've ever seen do that. I think a lot of people know that he did Magna Carta, Holy Grail, essentially in two weeks. Like he did the whole album in two weeks. Most of his albums were made very quickly. Yeah, it was always interesting. He was like, yeah, he recorded them in two weeks, but these ideas he's been refining. It's not like when he's not in the studio, he's not thinking about these. He's like refining these ideas over a long period of time.

1:03:11Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some of them, it all happens in a weekend. The whole thing. That's crazy. Yeah. As opposed to Em, who will work on a song forever. Yes. Very different. Just two different styles, both amazing, but they just come at it from different, I think it's just different personality types. What do you think M's personality type is then? I would describe him as obsessive. You know, he's really perfectionist, willing to do whatever it takes for it to be great and diligent, hardworking. And Jay's much more relaxed. Jay's, it just kind of happens for him. He's doing it, but it's just a different style.

1:04:04Of the two, which one do you think your working style is closer to? I do a different thing, so it's hard to say. What I do changes according to who I'm working with. Whatever the artist needs is what my job is. So in some cases, it's totally hands-off. And in some cases it's, well, we got to start from the beginning and try to figure this out together. Oh, so you know what I just, I'm thinking of like, it's kind of tied to what you were saying about being a professional listener, that you take a sincere interest in the person, whether you're recording a podcast with them or you're working with them in the studio.

1:04:45And so your goal, if I'm reading this correctly, is like, has really nothing to do with you. You feel your act of service to try to get them to be the best version of themselves. Is that the way you think about it? Yes. I'd say that's accurate. Do you have anybody that plays that role in your life for you? I don't know if I do. I don't know if anyone produces me. Could they reduce you? I don't know if there's anything to reduce here. Yeah. I don't know. Luckily, I have friends and family who are not particularly interested in what I do. So I have reality around me a lot of just like, that's crazy.

1:05:26You know, like a lot of, that's a bad idea. And it's interesting for me because some ideas I hear, that's a bad idea. And it's like, okay, maybe you're right. And many ideas is like, I'll show you. I'll show you it's a good idea. I feel I have to do this, you know. Yeah, I could see that you take a lot of input, but I think you would be resistant to. I won't change my mind, but I'm open to hearing ideas and definitely open to help. If someone suggests something that makes it better and I see that, it's like, that's the best. I'm not closed-minded. Because someone offers information, even experienced wisdom, I might not always choose to use that information.

1:06:15Do you think you have a big ego? I don't think so. You have a lot of self-confidence, though. I have a lot of self-confidence. But they even said, somebody met you when they were like 19. And they're like, that's the most self-confident 19-year-old I've ever met. I think that's the mix. I think, you know, I'm lucky I learned to meditate when I was young. And meditation has been a big part of my life. So it's never been about ego. It's never been about me, you know. I'm confident in being able to share what I'm experiencing. I hear something like, that's amazing. And I hear something else, it's like, you know, it's not good enough.

1:06:50and nothing anyone can say will tell me otherwise. It's like I know I can feel it. So there's confidence in your own judgment because you were just saying you can have somebody who has a lot of experience with them. When I say confidence in my own judgment in this is how I see it, I'm not saying I'm right. I never say I'm right or I know what's best. None of those things. This is how I see it. I see it clearly. This is how I would vote for it. If I get to vote, I vote for this. But it's not my way or the highway at all. What is your inner monologue like when you're making something? Is it positive, negative?

1:07:32Are you self-critical? Depends. Like, I would say rarely critical. What it usually is is it starts apprehensive when we start because it could be anything. So at first, it's scary. So I don't know what's going to happen. Even today? Even today. and there's usually expectation because I've had success in the past that if I'm there, it's going to be great. So I feel this pressure of like, there's expectation and I know I can't control anything. It's going to be the way it's going to be. I know I'm patient and I know I'll wait until it's great. And we start by experimenting and see what it could be.

1:08:10And as soon as there's a glimmer, as soon as I hear something that's good, then I relax. But until then, it's too open you know it could be too many things but once something lands whatever it is i relax like okay we have a at least a direction to move in it doesn't mean we stay in that direction forever but having a direction is better than not having a direction and when we start we don't have a direction so you would say you don't have a you're a a cell like a self-critical inner monologue constantly playing in your mind. Never. It's interesting. The reason I ask you this question is because I was with an entrepreneur yesterday.

1:08:52Guy's worth$10 million and he wakes up every morning at 5.30 just assuming he's going out of business and like essentially paranoid. He lives like a paranoid life and that's why he thinks he's good. This is very common with like a lot of people. Yeah. And I used to have a self-critical, like kind of mean, I was fucking pretty mean to myself. There's a guy named Brad Jacobs. I actually had him on the show. I've talked to him a bunch and he used to have that too and now he's in the 60s. It's like, it's counterproductive. It's not helping anything. And something, I talk about this on the podcast.

1:09:24You can hear me mentioning it over again for a few years and just something one day just fucking snapped and I just don't do that anymore. That's great. And I went back and I was reading my notes on you and I was just telling my partner Rob about this, this way I look at the work we're doing now. It's like, I like Rick's framework that like, if you look at your work, it's just like an entry to a diary. Yeah. It's like, there's nothing to be critical about because you did the best you possibly could have done. In that moment. In that moment. Yeah. And then that was 10 years ago and that was five years ago.

1:09:52And then what we're making today is. And I might not do the same thing I would have done 10 years ago. And that's fine. But I don't have any regrets about 10 years ago. That's what I thought. That's real. Each of those installments are real. So it's always true. It doesn't mean that that's who you are forever. That's who you are in that moment. It's really freeing. It's helpful for an artist to think that way. Because usually, especially when we're younger, we think the thing that we make is, this is my magnum opus, and this is going to define me for the rest of my life. And it's a daunting hill to climb.

1:10:32But when you realize, it's like, this is just the one today, and we're going to make another one tomorrow. And hopefully the one tomorrow is going to be as good or better than the one today. what's true today? What's the one? I usually say that if you are excited to share it with your friend, like if I'm working in the studio and long before a record comes out, if we're making something and if someone comes and I'm excited to play it for my friend who has good taste, who I know likes good music, it could come out then. Like if I want to play it for them, that's good enough for everybody. Do you know what I'm saying?

1:11:15Yeah. But usually artists will feel like, well, I'll play this for my boys, but it has to be a lot better before regular people can hear it. And that's ridiculous. It's like, as soon as I liked it enough to share it with one person, chances are it's ready for everybody. I've seen you talk to a ton of musicians and artists on camera. I just finished rereading this profile that was in Colossus magazine on Josh Kushner. And it starts out with him coming to seek your counsel. There's a ton of people that come to seek your counsel. And I feel almost like your modus operandi is like holding up a mirror to them and just telling them to do what they know they want to do.

1:12:03But it's somehow more valuable if they hear it from somebody else. Does that make any sense to you? Do you resonate with that at all? That sounds right. I mean, there are occasions where someone will come to me and say, I'm thinking about doing this crazy thing. And I'll say, I wonder about that. But more often than not, when people share their hopes and dreams, that's all you need to know. It's like, these are my hopes and dreams, but I'm afraid of this, this, and this. Most often, it's go with the hopes and dreams. Don't worry about any of that stuff because that stuff doesn't matter. What is the stuff that they're afraid of over here?

1:12:40What someone's going to say. Will I be able to keep doing it? My last one was successful. What do I do now? Success is a funny thing. You know, when you're young and you get successful quickly, no one's prepared for that. And it's awkward and uncomfortable. And you think that's the thing that you want, but when you get it, it's not like what you think it is. It's very different. and there are all these pressures that come with it that no one's ready for and no one learns how to do and it's not like whoever uh you learn good habits from over the course of your life they don't know how to deal with it because they're they never got you know overnight famous or successful or like it's it's a weird thing um so a lot of artists kind of implode in success.

1:13:32Okay, so I want to ask you why you have not imploded over this many decades. One of the most interesting things that Jimmy Iovine told me, we talked a lot about this, because I'm obsessed with people that are just further down the line than I am. The wisdom they gain from experience. I got the book knowledge. I need the stuff that's not in there that they can tell you. He was just like, most people cannot handle. You guys have been around some of the most talented people, genius level talents that have completely imploded, maybe destroyed their lives, maybe died prematurely. And so he broke it down like four things for me.

1:14:07Like there's like people can't help stress. And these are the pitfalls, David, that you should watch out for. One was drugs. Second was alcohol. Third was women. And fourth was megalomania. That, you know, it's really hard to get on stage and there's 80 ,000 people screaming your name. And over time, they just think there's some kind of like they're not even human anymore, which you seem to be like, I'm not special. I have no, I know you say you have no talent, all this other shit, but like, I'm not special. You know, I think that's, there's a lot of wisdom to that. It's like, man, there's 10 million me's and 10 million you's all over the world or whatever the whiz.

1:14:41Do you think Jimmy's perspective on that is like the people that you've seen that were, had talent and had success and then destroyed it. Is there anything else that he's missing from there? I think those are all of them. It's like, because the last one takes into account a lot of like, there's both the mask of overconfidence and ego, which is hiding insecurity, or there's the insecurity. But they're really the same. You know, they're just presenting in two different ways. Two different people have the same overnight success. One of them gets really boastful and I'm the greatest that ever lived.

1:15:28And the other one is like, oh my God, they're going to find out that I'm really a fake. But those are both the same people. It's the same. They're two sides of the same coin. The megalomania is a way of hiding the insecurity. It's a brave face. They might not know this. They rarely know it, you know. It's different sides of the same imbalance. So that leads me to the question I hinted at, or maybe even said, like, how do you sustain success over such a long period of time then? I think the fact that I learned to meditate when I was young and always had a grounded, and the fact that I know it's not me.

1:16:15It's like those two things. It's like I'm grounded and I know I'm lucky to participate in this magic that's happening. I get to be in the room when it happens, but it's not from me. What do you mean it's not from you? I'm in the service of it. Is that what do you mean? Yeah, I would say that. I'm in the service of it. I'm devoted to setting the stage to allow it to happen. And I'm patient and waiting for it to come. it's not like when it's great, it's like, I did a great job. It's not that. No, I think the people that sustain greatness over time, even if they do something great, they don't like rest on their laurels.

1:16:59They don't go to sleep on wins. They just make something great. They're like, all right, do you try to do it again the next day? And they don't really think too much. Jimmy Iveen has, I keep bringing him up, but he has that great line. He's just like, I don't have a rear view mirror and I don't have a trophy room. He's just like, I don't give it, even when he did the show, he's like, I don't want to talk about the past. I want to talk about like what I'm working on in the future. They're all like that. I just had lunch with Jeffrey Katzenberg. Same thing. He's just like, yeah, we do the show. But like, I want to talk about what I'm working on now, not just what happened at Disney and everything else.

1:17:24It's just very, very common. Like staying in the moment of being present. Let me tell me if you disagree with me. Because again, like I have this interpretation of you in my mind because I've been a fan of yours for a very long time. And going back to this like sustained success over a long period of time. I talked to James Dyson, the guy that invented, you know, the vacuum cleaner guy. and he's a fascinating person to me number one person i wanted to meet because his first autobiography i think is so great because it's all about like him just enduring to struggle and refuse to quit and something i didn't understand even though i read his first autobiography five times second autobiography two or three times and his it's like that he wrote in cycle this i love obsessed people he's an inventor he wrote an encyclopedia while he's building his company on a history of great inventions and he's there's like fucking 200 inventions and he's like look at this little weird thing and he's just like complete obsessed obsessed but what i didn't understand what was driving him was he told me this great story on the podcast where he goes this is his or his simple organizing principle he's like i pick up a product right cop pick up product it exists i go how can i make this product better makes it better puts it back down waits a little bit picks it up goes how can i make it better makes it better puts it down he goes i just do that over and over again yeah i've been doing it for 50 years yes so if i had to guess what your organizing principle was that I think also influences the sustained success that you had is you just making things that you yourself like.

1:18:48That's it. And sometimes I'll go into a friend's house and I'll think, the furniture in here isn't arranged in the best way. Maybe I'll rearrange the furniture. No, you don't. I've done that. I've done that. What does your friend say? Depends. Some are, you know, some are cool with it. Some are like, he's crazy, you know? Okay, we could say more about this. Well, it's just like seeing the possibility. I've worked on a lot of living spaces, and the idea of designing a house from scratch is a daunting one to me. I can't imagine doing that because there's too many options. But if there's a house that exists, I might be able to see, well what's the best version of this thing that already exists and that's what same same with music it's like i hear what's there and now what's the best version of this what can we do to make it better what can we do to make it better same thing as james dyson exactly the same yeah i feel like you did this from the very from the jump when you're like well i'm in the club i'm obsessed going in the club the hip-hop club is incredible right yeah but i like this stuff that's here i go to the record store i'm buying this stuff that i don't like it's not real yeah so i was like why don't i just make what i actually like yeah and it wound up working out like fabulously yeah but again i didn't know in advance it would work out fabulously it's just like this is what i want to hear i'm making it for me which these are my favorite kind of people because you're again it goes back to like why are you doing what you're doing and you're doing it because you wanted to make it to the I want it in the world.

1:20:28You were willing to just make music at night and have a normal job just because you liked doing it. Absolutely. It was never, I never thought of any of this as a job. It's never been about that. It's only a job because I'm committed to show up. That's what makes it a job. The actual craft of making things is what I like to do. What would have to happen for you to basically disappear and to stop working with musicians, stop making podcasts? I think I would just keep making things for myself. You know, I give the example in the book of if you were to move into a house on the top of a mountain that no one could ever come and visit and you made that the place that you most wanted to spend your time and you really curated it to your taste.

1:21:20That's the job. It's not about I'm making this to show off to someone else. I'm making this because I want to inhabit this. I make the music that I want to, I'm excited to listen to. Now, it's ridiculous. It doesn't work out that way because in making the music, we work on it, we listen to it a thousand times. And then when it's done, it's fine if I never hear it again. I never put on music I worked on, which is funny because I'm making it to be the perfect version of what I want to hear. but in the process of doing that there's so much listening involved that's not fun to go back and listen to it for me i want to hear something new this idea of the you the example that you use in the book of the house on the mountain that no one can ever see no one will ever see say more about the thinking behind that though well it's it's true i just know for me if i was i don't decorate my home to impress someone else.

1:22:20I decorate my home to be the best version of the house that I want to live in. And it's not typical. I'm willing to go to extremes to make the thing that I want to inhabit. And it's not for anyone else. It's just for me. Now, often other people, if they do happen to come over, they're like, wow, I'd love to live in a place like this. I've never been in a place like this. I think the metaphor that you're using there though, it's like a, almost like a, a map for people to find their life's work if they haven't found it yet. It's like, what are you already doing? Yeah. And what will you do no matter what?

1:22:58What won't you stop doing regardless? I always say, it's like people say, Oh, you know, if you love what you do, you would do it for free. And I was like, no, there's another level to loving what you're doing. If you love, if you truly love what you do, they couldn't pay you to stop. Yeah. I think it's excellent advice for helping people find their life's work. Rick, this was awesome. You've been a huge inspiration to me. I've used a ton of your ideas in my work, and I hope this is the first conversation of Maddie between me and you. Great. Pleasure. Thanks for doing this. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

1:23:27Please remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review, and make sure you listen to my other podcast founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through founders.