RenderCon, Higgsfield AI, and Vimeo Streaming

0:00In this episode of The Noise, we're going to recap RenderCon, the new AI video model called Higgsfield, and Vimu's new product to help creators launch their own Netflix. Let's get into it.

0:14All right, Addy, we're back at the roundtable in person. That's it. Good to see you again. Good to be back. As much as I love Riverside for remote recordings, I don't miss doing this podcast remotely. Yeah, I think we've set a really important rule in the beginning that we'll do most of it in person. Now that you're moved to LA, this is really good for a natural back and forth and natural analysis. Let me just freeze here so I can pretend that the connection is interrupting again. Did you get what I said? While I was trying to catch up to hear what you said. All right, let me repeat that line.

0:44I think it's good for a natural interaction. Yeah, so much of the conversation the last few episodes was like, kind of hearing what you're saying, but just like nodding as if I heard everything. Yeah, it's also really interesting because we talk about cloud tools. We talk about remote collaboration, decentralization. Riverside, I think, is the most popular podcast platform for remote stuff. I love Riverside. it's still not 100 % there also in their defense too a lot of it too was like at nab i was on my phone's hot spot so it wasn't the best internet connection yes tools they're the best and the other thing is like even if the connection in real time is crappy i know that it's recording locally so i know the files are going to be as good as it can be yeah all things considered it remote better than yeah i mean it totally does the job yeah you know there's still some stuff left to be desired but that gives a new player to come in and dominate maybe maybe or it could be uh you know it'll be holographic or spatial or something like they did shoot that james cameron interview that uh we talked about last week there was a spatial video well it's meta so i don't think they call it spatial video but whatever their flavor of spatial video is it was 4d like a volumetric capture it was a volumetric capture yeah version of the interview okay which i did try to watch on my Quest 2 headset.

1:58Oh. It made me kind of nauseous. James Cameron and full 360 volumetric. All right. So I attended RenderCon a few days ago, which I was a little bit fuzzy after NAB and it was on my calendar. I was like, wait, what is this thing I signed up for? But yeah, I was put on by the Render Network. Can you give me some background on the Render Network and Otoy? Yeah, I've never heard of the rendered network before this year. This seems to be the first in-person conference. So I think this is sort of a compliment to something like GTC or even SIGGRAPH. It's very computer graphics oriented, technical audience.

2:37A lot of the big graphics vendors are there. You know, NVIDIA is there. Otoy is there. And you even have graphic celebrities like Beeple. We all love Beeple. yeah uh somebody asked yeah uh one of the guys uh ran from corridor corridor crew was there yeah oh awesome which one nico ren oh ren yeah yeah yeah because it was a lot of i think the common thread was a lot of people who use the render network which is their other product that's distributed rendering like gpu is on demand you got a huge thing to render oh a good example is alex pierce sim plates yeah uh gave a talk on virtual production because he is a user when he needs to render out his 16k crazy large driving plates render network is what he uses when it would either be like there's just no not enough gpus that he has to do that or take like a crazy amount of time and it's like oh you need to you know have a thing you need to render out send it you know spin up your gpus yeah send it there to their render network i think it's way easier than setting up a render farm on aws or something where you still have to like dial in the machines and the applications and everything this is like a render farm on demand for anybody that's pretty cool yeah that's like the background of the company but the event itself as you said kind of being like a gtc or a sigraph it was at naya wait uh is that a studio yeah in hollywood and you said that it was uh it was rather it was extravagant i mean i don't know extravagant maybe the wrong word of like it was extremely well run and put together uh very nice event I did feel like some points I was wondering if there were more event people running it than actual attendees.

4:13They're just like people everywhere. Like even at breakfast, it was like someone saw someone with like a platter with like little yogurt things like appetizers on a platter. Nice. And baristas and bars and stuff everywhere. It's just really nice. One event, there was like a gift shop where you can kind of customize your own t-shirt. The main event space, super nice. And then the movie, there's a movie theater that was part of Naya Studios. Okay. Super nice theater with like super plush, comfy chairs. Yeah. And they would like serve you popcorn when you went in. It's a fun event. Really nice. Very nicely put together.

4:43Yeah. I wish I would have been able to join you. I was in that shoot like that whole week. I didn't see much sunlight. But it seems like the people organizing RenderCon are well versed in organizing enterprise trade shows. So the funding was clearly there, you know, and I'm pretty sure we're going to see one next year. Yeah. So RenderCon was put on by Jules Urbach. CEO of Otoy. So yeah, can you give us a background on Otoy? Yeah, Otoy is really well-loved by the computer graphics VFX community. You know, long before Unity and Unreal were really a big player in our space in M &E, it was really the OG renderers.

5:20It was Octane, which is an Otoy product, V-Ray, Arnold. These were traditional path tracing renders. The stuff that you hear about, you know, one frame takes 10 hours to render. This is what Otoy has been doing for a long time. And it's a really high quality render used for Final Pixel. It competes with all of the other competitors in its space. And it's interesting to see they have diversity of their business model with the rendered network. And that there's still a very strong market for heavyweight offline rendering that takes hours and hours and hours. Yeah. And then a lot of the talks are too, or it's like, what's the future going to be, especially with AI?

5:58And it's like rendering versus generating. I think my speculation here is that all of the renderers know that the future is in neural rendering. So using AI in some form or fashion to simulate a path trace or create shaders on the fly or compute, you know, the lighting calculations with AI. Whatever gives you the most efficiency, the market will instantly absorb it. what i mean by that is if the rendering is better and it takes half as much time they'll just render twice as much like put twice as much complexity in the scene and so on yeah that was the thing that came up too where it's like oh yeah as the cards get more powerful you get more ram in it it's not like oh this is going to be faster it's like well what else can i throw at this thing that's it and i don't think we're anywhere near the level of where we're fully simulating reality right like a basic water simulation or hair simulation like can completely overload a render job like you could take it for one hour 200 hours or whatever so uh there's a lot of progress to be made neural rendering i think is a really promising new method that i hope that they're all exploring yeah yeah and that came up a lot and yeah just another big common thread was modeling the real world and leading into basically the holodeck and like the um the real-time doom video game generation example was brought up where it was like a version of doom but it was like generating in real time so as you're moving through the on the fly it's just like generating taking that like that's a very like low file example but taking that to the future of being able to create a holodeck world where you're kind of living in a 3d or experiencing a 3d world yeah but it's generating in real time yeah and uh whatever the story or your will or method and it kind of just starts to build it on the fly that's that's really interesting uh i heard the uh star trek folks were there so yeah jules is a big uh star trek fan and they had been doing work in the past with the roddenberry state and digitizing some of the enterprise models from like the original movies and creating digital versions of it and they created a i think full-scale 3d version that you could navigate of the enterprise like a life to scale model of like based on all the maps and stuff they had of like what it would actually be like to explore it in a real virtual space and they had like a vision pro experience where you can kind of navigate through the enterprise that's cool and then they did a star trek short film called star trek unification okay and it was sort of a film sort of giving an ending to uh kirk and spock who like kirk did have like an on-scene death in star trek generations but spock never really had a like kind of death scene in the canon of uh the movies like and the tv show one with chris pine the newer one leonard nimoy does past like in in i think they're going off the original oh okay that timeline got it um but it was a short film that was sort of like a you know kind of recap closure for the kirk and spock story yeah or goodbye for like those two characters to have a goodbye the issue is in making this william shatner is a bit old and let her nimoy has passed away yeah who played spock and so they worked with the estates and rod roddenberry uh who they've been collaborating with for a long time who is Gene Roddenberry's son and kind of manages the Roddenberry estate in Star Trek and, you know, continues the legacy.

9:12Worked with all of them and got Shatner on board and the Nimoy estate on board to basically shoot with other actors and deep fake, lack of a better word, face replacement. Yeah, with different age versions of William Shatner as Kirk and Leonard Nimoy as Spock throughout the years for this short film. So Otoy has built a solution that is essentially like what Metaphysic AI is doing. Yeah. So they're able to build a real-time face-altering solution, similar to what we've seen with Metaphysic in here, where in real time, looking in the director's monitor, they're able to film with their actor, who's like, you know, physically and kind of performance-wise matches Kirk, but, you know, doesn't exactly look like Kirk, and replace the face.

9:57and like on set so everyone can see what it's looking like. Wow, that's really interesting. You know, it just kind of makes me think about all of the golden IPs from the last century. Like you have obviously Star Trek for what, 60, 70 years now. James Bond going through like a exchange of hands right now. MGM Amazon has it finally for full creative control. And Star Wars having kind of a full reset with Kathleen Kennedy leaving. So the question is, are they going to put a new cast or are they going to digitally swap out and keep the OG cast? Right. Or do you blend it to like we had within Mandalorian with like Luke coming back?

10:39You know, young Luke from that timeline, which also the face swap on that was questionable. And then there was like that fan version that came out that that was way better. Redid the face swap. It was like a lot better looking. It opens up a lot of possibilities. and it also opens up a lot of questions too because you look at something like Leonard Nimoy where you know he's passed away so he didn't really have any say in this it was up to his estate to kind of determine you know if they wanted to go forward with this yeah and then also just the process of creating that the digital version of him yeah talk me through that yeah I believe I mean I think they have a lot more resources online as just sort of some of the highlights from the keynote but it was like they built a clay version of his head based on existing images and models that they had and then took the physical model of his head that they built and scan that using the photo scanner, the 360 rigs that I believe they developed for cases like this for digitizing actors.

11:28Yeah. And so then they use that as the digital model that they then were able to face swap out on the actor. Yeah. There's a lot that goes into the sort of face, digital face replication, because once you have the model, that's just like the first entry point. Then you have to re-topo the face to have blend shapes. Then the blend shapes have to be driven by facts, facial action coding system. And you also need rigs for secondary motion. So bones within the face that jiggles the fat a little bit here and there causes a wrinkle that otherwise wouldn't occur, but exactly what Leonard Nimoy has on his face.

12:03So my guess is that portion is still very much a high end VFX artist pass at building the facial rig. And then finally, in putting that into like an AI solver. Yeah, I'd be really curious what their pipeline is or what they can and how that defers from what we've been seeing with metaphysics and uh yeah and like you know a few different companies developing their own pipelines that are getting you know to the same similar end goal but like i'm curious how it defers with like how they do that the other issue you know or kind of topic that came up a lot too was specifically with this example and you're kind of using you know the likeness and digital versions of actors you know somewhere it's just like william chattner's you know just has aged out from like acting that but is still on board with it yeah they're the rights and, you know, the actors having the rights.

12:46And Ari Emanuel was part of the keynote. He's an investor in - The Ari Emanuel? The Ari Emanuel, super agent, also portrayed - Inspiration for the entourage, Ari. And this is, you know, a thing that's coming up now. I believe he was an advisor investor in Otoy, or like they've been collaborators for years. But yeah, with who he's representing and just as an agent and the actors. Yeah. And having, controlling the rights to their digital likeness and also how to monetize that in the future. Yeah. Especially for your family or for an estate, like the Nimoy estate, where it's like, okay, he has passed, but his likeness and digital, whatever the package of that rights would be called, still has value.

13:24Yeah, it's a goldmine for somebody like Ari Emanuel or any agent, right? Because they can essentially create a never-ending flow of income for the estate if they do everything right. And then somebody like the Roddenberry still continues to develop new Star Trek products. And then those things are developed and successful. And then that drives more use of digital human rights for the agents. I think it's an interesting ecosystem to watch, especially because you think about like where we are today in Hollywood, right? Like all of the big stars that we talk about are really the stars from the last decade, two decades, right?

14:01Like your George Clooney or Brad Pitt, your Sandra Bullock. Like these are not stars of today. These are stars of yesterday that still have a massive audience and hold a big sort of prestige over their names. And the agencies are probably thinking, well, how do we keep this income revenue going for both them and us? And so they're probably super interested in all of this work. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think from the actress perspective, too, there was another example of, you know, having to scan the same people multiple times, like, yeah, re scanning them for a new project. And I think it maybe said it was the rock was one example, where they have like scan them three or four times for different projects.

14:38And from his perspective, he's like, why do you have to keep re scanning me? Like, you've done this before? Yes, of course. And yeah, so it's like, is it a matter of just like, because who owns the rights to those scans, or it's tied to the project, the technique changes? Yeah, like a baseline where it's like the actor could go in and be like, I'm just going to capture myself now, I own this. And then I like, if I'm on a production, I can like license it out or something that they need these scans. I don't know. I'm kind of curious, like, yeah, from a technical end, or just like, I think the scan quality has gotten a lot better over the last few years.

15:06You know, it's not like something you could track like the resolution of the camera. The camera resolution is probably more or less the same. But the actual solve, you know, how you take 2d images and create something 3d that has a lot of computational algorithm behind it and maybe now there is a better version of that that is more accurate because you got to get down to a level of accuracy that's like your pores right you're talking sub millimeter accuracy and maybe that wasn't achievable five years ago but is now and the other thing is it's not just about the geometry it's about the material so like our faces are essentially subsurface scatter models shader models and so you're capturing reflections you're capturing light that is still left in the skin and all of the little imperfections on our faces so there's i think we won't see the end to the rock being scanned over and over again i think five years from now the rock will be scanned once again and imagine too it's like if you're doing it for that project you want their scan to match the pipeline but also what you were shooting in production with them too because like you know we change we age we yeah like so i could see there's like one version where it's like yeah the actor would want to own the version of like let me just capture me now in my 30s my 40s like i have this 20 years from now we ever need to come back or do like a younger version of me i i have you have it my yeah 20 year old model version of me that i can monetize you know i just hope the rock has some sort of crazy backup hard drive where he's storing all this i'm just kidding he probably is no idea no but someone from his team from uh yeah what two buck or what's what seven buck whatever his production company's called yes yes also like um you know fast and furious is probably an ip that's just going to keep going beyond the lifetime of indies or the rock the early cases too when this yeah a whole thing kind of came up with the early passing of um paul walker of paul walker yeah yeah and then uh he there's another uh branch hobbs and shaw that nvcu has i mean as the rock sort of ages out they're going to continue to keep putting him in the movies i'm guessing even though new actors will come in and kind of take on the primary roles, you know, and what if they need this time capsule video of The Rock when he was 25 years old?

17:20Yeah, and Star Wars is another good example of this too, when they keep making new series and bounce around the hill timeline of stuff. And it's like, oh, you know, we want to bring back a character, you know, from New Hope, you know, a 50 year old film, and you know, the actor's not around anymore. It just gives the writer so much more options. Yeah, when it's like, just because the actual actor passes away or is like ages out doesn't mean the character has to disappear yeah but also at the same time the antidote i would say the counter argument is like never underestimate the power of good artistry like an artist can completely make the rock from scratch at any age it's just a matter of time and money yeah yeah for sure yeah that's like another one of those like uh clips that keeps going around the internet of pirates of the caribbean too with uh the davy jones yeah with the face yeah and the eye the the squid face and the detail.

18:09And it's like, why does it not look like this good anymore? And it's like, well, that's because they had a lot of time and money. Yes, exactly. And like stuff is a lot more rushed. Budget was cut. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, RenderCon, overall, just great event. I mean, these were just like two of the talks, but it was like talks all day, presentations all day. So yeah, I thought it was an excellent event to hopefully do it next year. And yeah, excited. Also, one side thing, because of the Star Trek thing, they had a whole separate Star Trek kind of museum exhibition. So that a bunch of the costumes that they used from the film and from just other Star Trek projects.

18:38So as a Star Trek fan, it was fun to see that. I love Star Trek. There were a good handful of people there too who I think seemed to have known that it was going to be a very Star Trek focused conference. So they came fully dressed up in various Star Trek areas. My favorite Star Trek was J.J. Abrams' Star Trek. I don't know. Is that blasphemous? Is that bad to say? Are we going to lose some viewers over this? Come on, man. It's got to be the original series. Okay. Or our next generation. All right. Next up. Higgs Field. Yes, Hicksfield is a new video generation model. We see one every week, right?

19:11So what's so special? What's so cool about this one? Well, this one has the backing of Alex Mashrabov, who was previously the AI lead at Snap. He sold a company, that AI factory for$166 million back in the day. And now because he has that leadership and the technical capability, he built a new video generation model from scratch that is truly built for cinematic control and cinema. We talked about Asteria and Moon Valley a little bit, how that model was purpose built for our industry to have the highest quality output. Hicksfield feels like a competitor, not so much to like a Luma or, you know, a Pika, but rather Asteria and some of those cinematic models, quote unquote.

19:54Yeah, I mean, the stuff, I haven't had a chance to mess around with it too much yet, but the stuff I've been seeing online, the clips look very good, like very like realistic physics. Yeah, very realistic looking. And that was what they said their differentiator was what they trained their model to do was to train it more on cinematic lighting, camera movement. It has 49 different prebuilt camera shots. Amazing. Built into it to kind of like cue up. And on the sort of underneath the basic architecture, it's really interesting because they're calling it a diffusion transformer architecture. And those are two completely different things.

20:26Transformers are typically associated with LLMs like ChatGPT. And diffusion models are associated with image generation like stable diffusion. So they're combining those two things in a hybrid architecture. I would love to see like a little bit of white paper on some of the under the hood stuff. Yeah, maybe we'll break that down in the future. But yeah, I'm curious, yeah, what that unlocks and how that changes how this is able to perform better. You know, when you combine it into hybrid architecture, purely speculating here that the prompting will give you a much more accurate result because it's just so tied into LLM transformers underneath.

21:04Like it's better able to under the direction and the language better. Yeah. I believe it was also trained on, I think in the training process, they had the clips analyzed by Google Video Analysis to tag all the clips that they then fed into their training model. Okay. I don't know if that is better. I don't know as much transparency about how the other models are trained because you have to analyze a bunch of footage, tag all the footage to be like, this is what this is, and then train it. I don't know if that unlocked better control by training it on different languages of like lighting quality, color quality, shot design, stuff like that.

21:39But I mean, we're both seeing a lot of stuff out of Higgs field online. Yeah. And it's not anything you should be ignoring. Like it's good stuff. Yeah. Like a lot of people have been switching to it. So the thing that came out recently, like yesterday that caught my attention that I thought was interesting with what they're doing is they're calling it Pulse, but it's basically pre-programmed camera moves or like have been in a bunch of different ai models now so like his field had with the 49 different camera moves that we talked about but like runway has camera moves ray luma ai has kind of camera moves where you know orbit or pan or zoom just to like yeah moves that understands that stability has camera moves that virtual camera yeah what they came out with with pulse it is more about human movement so they have a like a handheld no more like what is the subject doing and understanding that movement and it's trained on that movement.

22:29So for example, baseball, like baseball hitting a bat. So it has that movement already programmed in. So if you like having to give it an image of someone with a bat and you want them to hit the ball, which can sometimes be if it doesn't understand the physics of how that's supposed to play out. But now it's specifically trained on that movement. You can call up like, oh, this is what that movement's supposed to be. You get a better output. Oh, that's awesome. Some other examples, skateboard glide, skateboard ollie, ski carving, ski powder, basketball dunk things where you know we know as humans know what this should be but if you give it an image like in traditional air in older ai models you give it an image of like someone with a basketball like approaching the basket it doesn't always know like oh it's supposed to you know yeah complete the movement and dunk it in the basket yeah and also just like holding the basket with a basketball with fingers like object interaction is still lacking so this is really interesting i i think it's a big uh this is the first one i've seen where it has programmed or it has training specifically for the human movement yeah we've seen a lot of the camera movement but now to be like oh this is what this you know how this should interact in the physics with this i wonder if under the hood they're running some kind of like motion capture model or like a character rig model where it's uh simulating an actual skeleton or they're just able to give it like maybe based on better tagging data from their training, they're just able to give it all of the snowboarding footage and be like, this is what a snowboarder should do.

23:51Yeah, and that goes back to being a transformer and not a diffusion model because transformers can correlate between action and image much, much better, I think. I'll have to test on Higgs field, but one issue I had last year that no model could do was finger pressing a button. I could not get a finger to press a button and I tried like every AI model, this is six months, seven months ago. Yeah. And it would be like, you know, I had a big shot of a red button and I went, I just want to, you know, figure to just press it, like slam that thing down. And it would be like, it would rub it. It would like caress it.

24:24It would like, it would do everything but actually press the button. And I tried like Runway. I tried Pika. I tried every single model. Could not do it. Yeah. I needed to do an updated test on the button press. And I posted about this and some other people were like, yeah, you know, just button presses. Like you can't, like they won't do it. They don't know. They won't do it. They don't know what that means. That's great. That's like the ultimate AI test to see if it's real or not. So I'm going to have to do an update on this test with the newer models and see if that got fixed. Actually, I'm going to test it on.

24:52We talked about this a few weeks ago, but VO2, the good Google model that was sort of in like a closed beta. Now it is you can access it in Google AI Studio if you have a Gemini subscription, I believe. which if you're on Google Workspace, I think they forced everyone to have a Gemini subscription. So I'm on it. Yeah, I messed around with it yesterday. And I will say I gave it a shot that I had tested other AI models with. And it was like a person holding a piece of paper and the paper had text on it. And that's always kind of problematic with the AI because it'll does not very good with maintaining details.

25:27And it'll like jumble the text or like blur it and make it totally indecipherable. The VO2 held it kept pretty much everything sharp. Nice. Really? um yeah that's where like uh chad gpt 4o image generation excels at is text text has been historically pushing buttons and text man yeah yeah so vo2 is more available now you can mess with that so yeah we're gonna have to do a vo2 higgs field button press uh showdown all right maybe you can make a youtube short just on that yeah push the button push the button with uh some Daft Punk going on. All right. And then the last story, so Vimeo announced a new service that is basically, they'll be the backend to help you launch your own Netflix.

26:12I mean, basically your own streaming service. Yeah. I think it's really cool on paper as far as like actual use case and how many customers that actually go for this will be interesting to see. But in theory, if you're a big enough content creator that have created your own universe, maybe I'm not going to take Mr. Beast as an example, but someone a little bit smaller, and you have 100 ,000 or a million viewers, technically, you can create your own application on a, you know, on a Roku or whatever, and then have Vimeo infrastructure host that entire thing. So from a navigation menu to individual playlists and everything outside of YouTube outside of Vimeo.

26:52When I first saw this, it was a bit confusing, because this doesn't feel new for Vimeo. They they had a product before called Vimeo OTT over the top, which is like the industry term for streaming apps and platforms. So yeah, I was a bit head scratching. I was like, are you just rebranding to make this clearer? But the same issues from the Vimeo OTT apply here, where it's like, basically Vimeo is going to be the backend to host your videos and do all of the app building stuff. All of the hard stuff. Yeah, where you could either hire a developer to build this from scratch, expensive or they already built the bones for this and you know i mean it's all the platforms are pretty much the same you have playlists you have a home screen you have you know your banner art you just need to upload your stuff and host the videos yeah the video does here that's the hardest is the cdn the customer delivery network content delivery network rather uh and that's like everybody major in this game has a very robust cdn youtube has their own netflix has their own.

27:52Verizon has their own. Vimeo has their own. So you're just leveraging this powerful CDN for your own version of Netflix. Yeah. Irrelated video do all the, Vimeo do all the, all the, the backend, like complicated stuff. Yeah. Network routing, cloud storage, play on demand, resolution based on quality of service, all that stuff that's difficult. Yeah. But yeah, the thing where I get stuck is like, there's like, how many creators, where does this make sense for? So basically you'd need, you'd have to be a big enough creator to have a big enough audience to get, you know, one to 2 % that would convert to pay a subscription that would want this extra material.

28:27Right. And that it would be worth it for you to pay whatever, I don't know what the pricing is, but I remember Vimeo OTT. I mean, I think the very base level was at least 500 to$1 ,000 a month, plus probably the two to five to$10 ,000 like initial setup. So you have to have enough money to invest in it, enough of an audience to convert to pay 10 bucks a month, six bucks a month, whatever that is. Yeah. You know, I think the ones that maybe make sense for like the how the lifestyle ones like yoga with Adrian, I think if she wasn't on Vimeo, she was another marquee person on one of these other companies that does a similar service, you know, yoga, daily yoga videos and workout videos like that makes sense.

29:01I think another example is maybe it's not an individual creator, the way we're thinking, but a collective. Yeah, you know, that's a good idea. Yeah. Like the example I can think of is there is a collective of educational, really sharp, really cool content called Nebula. Yeah, they're on YouTube, but then you have to shoot you. Same people that started Discovery Channel, the original Discovery Channel. I think that was when Discovery was educational. Absolutely, yeah. TLC and all those. It's good for kids to watch and learn about space. And even somebody like me, I love learning about World War II, lots of great content.

29:35So Nebula probably built their own hosting platform from the ground up. They've been around for a while. But the next Nebula can just leverage Vimeo streaming. Yeah, you just have to pool together. 10 or 15 high-end YouTubers. And that's actually a pretty good idea. That's a way that a lot of newsletters have gone, where it's like a collective of five to 10 online writers who have pretty decent audiences, but maybe not enough where they can charge five, 10 bucks a month for the content, but pool all of them together and make it like a package deal. So if someone subscribes to the company and they have the option to subscribe to the individual newsletters, it kind of pools together more of these resources so that it's more valuable package to sell.

30:16yeah then you can justify the six dollars a month you're like i'm getting you know the 10 different creators not just one creator uh i think another good use case for this is a lot of the smaller podcast networks you know like you can have like six comedians with their own podcast pull it all together and then host hosted like podcast comedy that's a little an app yeah and maybe between that you can have enough to have like a weekly special a week from someone where it's not like one person has to have some original thing every week, but like amongst everyone, it's like once something original every month or every other month.

30:49Yeah. The issue with Vimeo has always been that they are the sort of very distant second to YouTube, right? Like nobody is even aware. I don't even think they're that same. Yeah. I mean, I think they gave up on that race a while ago. I mean, yeah, I remember in college, you know, when like video streaming was like a thing and then you make your short film and it was like, do I put my short film on YouTube, this weird, you know, cat video place or i put it on vimeo you know where it's like real artists post yeah they have the staff picks and stuff which still exists but and i still think vimeo's player is much nicer quality yeah but yeah they've they lost the like online video streaming like discovery game yeah you know i mean now they're a back end i think a huge part of their business is just the uh enterprise customers and like being the video platform for like back end for huge corporate customers.