Carol Klein, gardener

0:00BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

0:49My cast away this week is the gardener and broadcaster Carol Klein. As one of the regular presenters of the BBC's Gardeners World, she's a familiar and respected expert on the pursuit she shares with an estimated 27 million people in the UK. For many years, she ran her own nursery alongside her broadcasting career. She's a six-time Chelsea Flower Show gold medal winner, a certified RHS horticultural hero, having been awarded the Society's Victoria Medal of Honour in 2018. Her love of plants is, if you'll pardon the pun, rooted in her Lancashire childhood. It all started with her mother's nasturtiums.

1:28Then, just as she does in the garden, she used a mix of skill and spontaneity to find her way thereafter. She was an art teacher until she started a family and a garden of her own. Looking for a better work-life balance, she began selling seedlings from her own cottage garden in North Devon at local flower shows. She's been getting her hands dirty professionally ever since. She says, when you go out in the garden, you become engrossed in it. It's been proved that physically touching plants and having your hands in the soil does lift the way you feel about everything. I'd find it very difficult to live without a garden.

2:04Carol Klein, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. So, Carol, I think we should start in your garden at Glebe Cottage, your home for nearly 50 years in Devon. It's become something of a gardening landmark. What did it look like when you first arrived? A bit rough. There was no garden there at all. Our cottage was built for the gardener-cum-gamekeeper for the rectory next door, so it wasn't really a garden at all. And then over the years it had just become somewhere, really, to turn the car around and get out. It's a rough round the edges. And what about the plot itself? It's on quite a slope, isn't it?

2:41Yeah, which is great. And there was plenty of space, so it faces south-west, so it's ideal. And it's got a kind of dog leg in it with great big beech trees in one part. So it means part of the garden is shady too. Oh, lovely. So you obviously must have seen the potential from the very beginning. Did you have a grand vision? Absolutely not. I was just so grateful to actually have somewhere where I could garden. And the beauty is, of course, it's still evolving. You know, it's still changing and growing. What's your process when you're imagining something new for the garden? Where do you start? Is it with a plant, a plant palette, a feeling, a mood?

3:21Well, I don't do very much new stuff now because most of it is a question of dealing with what's there. For instance, when we went, there were no trees at all in the garden. There was really nothing, a lot of old sheds and old cars. We buried one of the cars, actually. They dragged a lot of them out, but one of them, the JCB could only clunk it with his bucket on the front and put it into one of the holes that was there and fill it in with soil. So it's a planting tip, really, because I planted a cornice on top of it and it's the best tree in the garden now. Really? That's going to take some explaining to future archaeologists.

4:02You're going to be like, what's happened here? In a few thousand years. Carol, obviously you are creative and inventive in the garden, but you've also said that you don't believe in green fingers. Please talk me through this theory because there'll be listeners who are tuned in thinking, well, I've just killed everything I've ever tried to grow. Well, they haven't killed anything. It's just that they perhaps haven't given things just the right conditions. But what I mean is once upon a time when people started roaming around and depending on hunting and foraging, they would have had to garden.

4:33They would have had to grow things once they started to cultivate and stop in one place. so it's something that everybody can do. I mean it's only common sense and if you just follow natural laws and don't try and defy nature then everybody can be successful with it. And a bit of experiment is a good thing. And as we're speaking it is a glorious June outside our studio. Normally at this time of year how much time would you be spending in the garden on an average day? As much as I possibly could. I'd tell a lie if I said I was out there last night because I wasn't, I was just trying to make sure I'd ironed everything before I came.

5:13Since it's just radio. Radio 4, it would be well presented, we appreciate that. Thanks. And what do you like in the garden at this time of year? What's your favourite thing about it? I just love the way it's so alive. It's just reached its peak now. In the spring, all the leaves are coming out of all different colours and you can see through them. But then by the time you get to July, August, everything's become the same green. But right now, everything's still looking fresh and yet full. You've been a presenter on Gardener's World for 20 years, but you are the queen, Carol, of encouraging viewers to grow things from seed or from cuttings rather than buying plants.

5:54What appeals to you about that way of gardening? You know, it's frugal, it's accessible. Is that what you love about it? Yes, it is, and that's what I've always tried to do. And when I've been presenting, I don't know whether it's conscious or bad, I don't know, but I love it so much, that whole thrill of seeing a seed germinate. And it's still exactly the same now as it was all that time ago with my mum pushing those nasturtium seeds in. You know, you see things coming up and it's thrilling. And it also connects you with nature, with what's real. and so much of our lives is spent in front of screens or walking on concrete and tarmac.

6:35But even if you've only got a balcony and a couple of pots, actually growing something and seeing it, nurturing it, loving it, it's just a wonderful experience. Carol, you're here to share your discs with us today. What's your first? I've chosen a Nina Simone. I love Nina Simone anyway. It's feeling good. I just love it because it's all about freedom and I love her, I love her voice River running free, you know how I feel Blossom on the tree, you know how I feel It's a new dawn, it's a new day It's a new life for me And I'm feeling good

7:32Nina Simone and Feeling Good. So take me back to the beginning then. What's your first gardening memory? My mum taking me out the back door, poking my finger into some soil, giving me a nasturtium seed to drop into the hole and covering it up. But better still, later on at the end of the summer, going out with a paper bag and collecting seed for the next year. I was always mad about nature. I mean, there wasn't a lot of it. We lived on the A6. But I'd seek out whatever I could find anywhere. I just always, always was madly interested in flowers and trees and birds. Loved birds. Sounds like your mum was supporting you.

8:17Was there anybody else who shared that passion? Well, yeah, the mud through the kitchen. She told me the story, I couldn't remember it myself, of taking buckets of soil into the kitchen. A lot of your listeners might not know what lino is, but there was lino on the kitchen floor and I just emptied it out and then made a garden in there. Did she let you do that? Yeah, yeah, of course she did. She was great, my mum. She was terrific. So tell me a little bit more about your parents then. You were born 80 years ago in Manchester, between VA day and VJ day, I think, to parents Jeannie and Ken, what were they like?

8:54Well, they were wonderful parents. I can't remember ever arguing with my mum. I can only remember her telling me off twice. Once to tell me that I was too much like my dad. And once to tell me that I thought I was always right, which I do. But she was just so supportive and I was the eldest. I've got, or I had two younger brothers and she was the only one who was really glad I was a girl because both my dad and my grandad for the first year and a half of my life called me Bill. Just in hope. You've just been desperate for a boy. That's right. And even after my brother Bill was born and christened, I think I still got called Bill accidentally.

9:43You were still the original Bill. Yeah. Flowers were very important to your family when you were growing up, Carol, and nurturing your horticultural leanings. You had a couple of rituals, I think, with snowdrops and bluebells. What did they involve? Well, my grandma, that's my dad's mum, had sisters and brothers all over the place. But in the spring, from Cornwall, from one of her sisters, would arrive this brown paper parcel, small parcel with sealing wax on it, brown paper and sealing wax. and she'd gather us all, my brothers and my cousins and everybody, into the glass porch at the back and she'd open this up and pull the paper off, open the box and inside there were snowdrops and moss and I can remember the mixed, you know how evocative scent is.

10:33Absolutely, yeah. I can be right back there and I can smell that smell, fresh moss and these beautiful snowdrops and I'm going to do it from now on with my grandchildren too. You know, it was just the best present anybody could ever give. And the bluebells, me and our bill used to go up to, it was called Oakwood and we picked great arms full of bluebells. Couldn't do it now, of course. But we were on our bikes. I had to steer and pedal home with all these bluebells in my arms, but it was quite good. I could do it with no hands. places. It's time for some more music. Carol, your second choice today.

11:14What are you taking to the island next and why? I'm taking a Buddy Holly record. It's not fade away. I can remember this time when I was supposed to be doing homework at Elaine Pottersmith's house, but instead I went round the corner to Row Green and we had a shed called Charlie's Shed and And we'd sit round and gamble, three-carb brag. And everything in there was a penny. So Charlie would charge you a penny for a cup of tea or coffee, a penny for a fag, or a penny for a matchstick, because we gambled with matchsticks. He must have been making a killing. Yeah, he did. But he played us wonderful records on this little teeny deck in the corner.

12:00Were you rebellious? What kind of teenager? Yeah, I suppose you could. Spirited, would we say? Yes, yes, I had my own ideas and I believed in going my own way, doing my own thing. I remember I ran away for the first time when I was about 13 and it had been bonfire night and it was really, really cold. And my two mates, who also used to come to Charlie's, came out and brought me marmalade sandwiches. Where would you run away to? How far did you get? Oh, just round the corner from Charlie's. Not very far at all. So they turn up with the marmalade sandwiches to keep you going? Yeah. How long did you last before you went back?

12:44I went back the next morning, quite early, on my bike.

12:53I'm going to tell you how it's going to be Are you going to give your love to me? I want to love you night and day You know my love will not fade away Oh, well, you know my love will not fade away

13:24Buddy Holly and Not Fade Away. So, Carol Klein, we've heard about you gambling. We've heard about the love of nature, but also the running away. However, you were obviously a gifted student because you'd been awarded a scholarship to a prestigious school. How did that fit with your tomboyish ways and your love of nature? Well, it fitted brilliantly, really good. My dad went to Manchester Grammar School. He was a scholarship boy and he left earlier than he would have liked to because my grandad chopped off the fingers of one hand on a circular toe. So an industrial accident. Yeah, so my dad left school and went to work purportedly to help family finances because there's no social security or national health then.

14:11But in actual fact, he bought a motorbike with his first wages. Manchester Grammar didn't accept girls then. So the next best thing was Bolton School, which is a very good school. So I passed the entrance exam and I went and I was 10. So most of the time was spent making sure I'd pass my 11 plus, which I did. But I can remember going down to my 11 plus exam, which, you know, you went to from home. And I remember walking down Cow Lane with, he was called Dick, this lad. And he didn't even have a pencil case. He didn't have a pencil. He had no idea what he was in for at all. and I think even at that age it just struck me how unequal things are and how unfair it all was.

14:58Anyway, when I went to Bolton School, the very first day I went, I got all my brand new uniform on, but I'd heard that at Doffcocker Lodge is just up the road from there, which was a big sort of reservoir, but there were some great crested grebes. Now I'd only ever seen their pictures, so I had to go and I was faced with these iron railings with sharp points on the top but I climbed over the top and as I did, down the other side, I ripped my blazer, I could hear this great big rent. Anyway, I saw the great Curse of Greaves and I got back home and I went round the back of our house and my mum was there and I showed her what I'd done and my dad never found out about it because that brand new blazer, she sewed it up so you just couldn't tell at all.

15:52But I saw my great crested greaves. Well, that's the main thing. How were they? They were wonderful. Carol, you weren't at that school for very long. It came to an abrupt end of your time there, during a very difficult time for your family. Tell me what happened. My father was called into the school towards the end of that year and told that the catchment area for scholarships had changed. And I'm afraid, you know, your scholarship no longer exists. If you want to come any more, then we would have had to pay, which we could never have afforded to do anyway. But the whole reason, I think, although this was never spoken out, was that they found out that my father had been in prison for a year.

16:42so he'd left the civil service with his ill-gotten gains from selling insurance stamps on the cheap. So he fell foul of a scam, didn't he? What actually happened? No, I think it was somebody in his office who was already doing this and he was drawn into it. I mean, he knew what he was doing. He wanted some dosh to start his own TV shop and my grandad wouldn't lend him the money. The shop was very successful for a couple of years but then they caught up with him and he was sent to prison for a year. How old were you when that happened? I think I was probably eight or nine. And what do you remember about it?

17:21It must have been a really difficult time. I can remember us going to Pethely, to Butlin's holiday camp, with my brothers and my mum and dad and our uncle Lin, who wasn't a real uncle but a friend of my dad's, coming in a separate car and then my dad disappearing on the first day and then I didn't see him again until we went to visit him in Preston Prison. Oh, my God. What were you told about what was happening? Can you remember? Well, yes, I was told. I was the eldest. I just remember going in to see him and we weren't even allowed to go and give him a hug or anything. We were in the same room but across this big table.

18:00That must have been awful. How did you react? It was horrible being without my dad for a year. We did a huge welcome home sign. and I kept it under my bed rolled up for most of the year and we got it out the day it was coming out and my mum had cooked him something splendid. She was a brilliant cook. And he didn't come home, so he went to the pub. Oh, my goodness. But he came home eventually, but it was a bit of a downer, really. Anyway. And tell me more about your mum and how she coped with that because so she had all three of you for a whole year. She coped brilliantly. She was such a fine example of what it is to be a woman.

18:49She ran the shop and the two people who were working for him just pinched the customer list and went and set up on their own. And you can imagine there was quite a stigma around, you know, at that time. Absolutely, yeah. But she coped very well with that. You know, all three of us were at school, but somehow she managed to cope with that whole thing for the whole year. She just did splendidly. And I think we were doing far better when he came out than we were when he went in. And what about your dad? I mean, how did what he went through affect him? Not as much as it affected us, I don't think, perhaps.

19:29Carol, let's take a minute for some more music. It's your third choice today. What are we going to hear next and why? Bob Dylan, Carina, Carina. I love this song. It's very sad. You know, it nearly always makes me cry, so you'll have to excuse me. You've lent me a tissue, so I'll be all right. But I just think it's the most beautiful, beautiful song. I think everybody should have the capacity to be sad. I think it's just as important as being happy. Carina, Carina, care where you've been so long?

20:09Carina, Carina, care where you've been so long?

20:18I've been warned about you, baby. Baby, please come home.

20:28Bob Dylan and Carina Carina. So, Carol Klein, you left school at 15 and you did a series of quite poorly paid jobs. What kinds of things were you doing? I was the shop assistant, first of all. I wanted to go to art college, you see, but you couldn't go anywhere until you were 16. So I thought, what's the next best thing? How about doing some window dressing? So I applied for a job in Kendall Milne. I thought that was quite arty. While I was biding my time before I went to art college, I have to say that my father, that was anathema to him. So he just didn't understand the art college thing? No, absolutely not.

21:11He wanted me to follow in his footsteps and do the things he hadn't done. So he loved languages and had wanted to do them. And I was all right at French. I got chucked out of my Spanish class, but never mind. But I just wanted to do art, and I got a job as a shop assistant, first of all selling buttons, and then hosiery in the haberdashery department. I had a very unhappy time whilst I was at school for one bit, and I actually tried taking pills, and as you can see, was totally unsuccessful. and it's really difficult being a young teenager. I should imagine it's even more difficult nowadays. When I was that age, I had the opportunity.

22:02I could actually chase my dream, follow what I wanted to do, but now it's just so, so difficult for young people. And you did, as you say, have friends, which must have made a difference. I know that you were making the most of going out and enjoying Manchester nightlife. There was a night that I have to ask you about where you shared a bath with John Lennon. Yeah, that's right. Talk me through it. I'm afraid it wasn't nearly as exciting as it sounds. It's a great headline though. Yeah, it isn't it. I used to go every night after I finished at Kendall Mill up to a coffee bar called Amigos. I used to help drying up in the kitchen just to earn enough money for my bus fare back home there were often parties arranged from there and one night I was invited to a party and I went and I was told that this group there who were called the Beatles were going to be there I had no idea really who they were at all it was the Oasis Club actually in Manchester where they'd been performing and this was very very early days so I went along to the party and I got chatting to this bloke and he was really nice but it was a very noisy party and the only place we could find to have a proper chat was sitting in the bath we didn't turn the water on we didn't take our clothes off we just chatted what did you talk about?

23:29about art mainly because I think he'd been to art college and talked a bit about music too mainly about art it was very nice And that was John Lennon? Yeah. Wow. Well, as we've been talking about music, I think we'd better hear some. Your fourth disc today, Carol Klein. What's next for us? Well, it's not The Beatles, though I could easily have chosen one of those, but it's Al Green. It's Let's Stay Together. Me and Neil went to see Al Green in Hammersmith, and it was lovely. And we've always played his records. So you and your husband, Neil, love Al Green? Yeah, yeah, he wasn't my husband then.

24:11Not Al Green, I mean Neil.

24:43Al Green and Let's Stay Together. So, Carol Klein, you got a place at Bolton College of Art. After more study in Newport and Brighton, you qualified as an art teacher and you worked in that field for 13 years, I think. How did it suit you? I loved it. I didn't want to go and teach, first of all, because I disliked school at the end of it. But I absolutely loved teaching. It was great. and I've been so lucky. You know, the kids have taught. Fairness has always been important to you, Carol, and you actually took one of the earliest sex discrimination cases to court. You'd been teaching for quite some time.

25:21What happened? They gave the job that I should have had to a bloke who was less qualified than I was, so I took the London Education Authority to court. Did you win? No. So my head of department was Paulie, been ill for quite a long time. And then in the end he decided he was leaving. And there were several of us in the department, but I was the most sort of senior, if you like. I'd been there for quite a while. So when his job came up, I applied for the job. I applied for it and I knew I could do it. I'd been doing it, in fact, for quite a while before that. I took them to court under the Sex Discrimination Act.

26:02Neil was my Mackenzie man in court when we fought it, explained what had happened the judge reserved his judgement and then they came out weeks later with a decision that the Act didn't apply because it was when we had the interview it was before it came into whatever you call it, operation It didn't count because it predated the legal mechanism Exactly Were you disappointed? I wasn't at all surprised I knew the job should have been mine. Carol, you mentioned your husband Neil. The two of you had met by the time you brought the sex discrimination case then. You were living in a London flat then.

26:45I wonder how much gardening you were able to do there. First of all, we lived in Kensal Rise when eventually he persuaded me or I persuaded him that we should be together. And all I had was a window box. I grew nasturtiums and sweet peas. So Mrs Forbes, who lived downstairs, didn't really appreciate it because all the nasturtiums were hanging down in front of her window. But this West Indian family on the other side of the road came out one day and applauded us because, of course, they could enjoy this. The floral display. Yeah, but then we went to St Joel's Square in Ladbroke Grove and I asked my landlord if I could have a little bit of this garden at the front of the house and he said yes.