Chaka Khan, singer and songwriter

0:00Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

0:44My castaway this week is the singer, songwriter and musician Chaka Khan. She's a music icon, a vocal powerhouse whose range encompasses folk, soul, disco, jazz, pop and beyond. An 11-time Grammy winner and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame alumnus, her career has spanned six consecutive decades and given us classics, including I'm Every Woman, Ain't Nobody and I Feel For You. She sold an estimated 70 million records and collaborated with all-time greats, including Stevie Wonder, Miles Davis, Joni Mitchell and Prince. She grew up in Chicago in an artistic family surrounded by music. At 13, she took the Yoruba name, Shaka, and by her late teens, she joined the band Rufus, whose sawaway success paved the way for her breakout as a solo artist.

1:32Her path took her from the Black Panther movement to the giddy heights of global superstardom. Today, she lives on a farm in Georgia, surrounded by family, animals and, of course, music. She says, music balances me out. It makes everything okay. It lets me know I'm in the right place. It's where I fit, where I live. It's what I live for. Chaka Khan, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. I'm honored to be here. So as we've just heard, Chaka, at this point in your career, you have got nothing to prove. What guides the choices that you make as an artist and as a person today? Well, I just feel it.

2:07I feel it. It's a feeling I get. And, you know, I follow that. I call it the spirit. and it works for me. And you're about to release your 13th solo album. How does this moment feel when you've finished a record but everybody else is just about to hear it, that kind of moment of unveiling? Well, you know, I've been doing this 50 years. I'm sure that when I was younger, I used to get a little angst about the whole thing and wonder, oh, they like it. Well, I just give what I got and I hope and pray that they will love it like I do. that's all you can do really. Absolutely and of course you're sharing your story and your music with us today.

2:47Is music still as important to your life as it always was? You know it's important in a different kind of way. Tell me about that. Well you know when I was younger I knew less about life. I didn't know as much as I do now of course and I think that music the magic of music just had me in its grasp very tightly. You know and that's loosened up as the years go by and I I get interested in other things as well. And that's, you know, right now my focus is right now just being happy to be still here and with my grandbabies and my great-grandchildren. That's my biggest joy. Do you sing to the little ones?

3:26Yeah. We have a new baby. Her name is Cody. She just had her first birthday. And she's open to my singing. Now, the second one, her big sister is only five. She's heard me singing. She's over it. A lot of listeners will, like me, be longstanding fans of yours. And I have a confession to make, which is that when I'm having a bad day, I sometimes look up just videos of you drumming. There are many, many videos of this on the Internet, old school videos of you drumming. Do you still play as well as you? Well, not really. I do have a music room. But when I come home, I don't want to play drums right there.

4:04I used to go out and jam, go with people I knew, some people I didn't know who were playing. and there's not a lot of that today and the DJs have taken over and so you don't get a lot of live music like you used to So some things change but your story is still bringing in new generations and theatre goers now because a new musical's opened I'm Every Woman which is based on your life How did you feel about the project when they first approached you? Well Nia Hill who is an amazing woman who I've known for several years who knows me very well And that helped a lot with the success of this whole thing.

4:44She put her heart, her entire heart into it. Did a great job. It's very honest, very real. I didn't feel uncomfortable about it. I loved it. I saw it for the first time in its entirety. And I cried a couple times. It was really an emotionally great experience for me, done by someone who knows my heart. and I think that was really the key to what made it such a great offering. Yeah, and did you cry when you thought you would cry? No. No, it's funny that, isn't it? Yeah, it's funny how that happens. Yeah. I found myself in tears a couple of times and laughing is a lot of laughter because it's been a circus.

5:24My life's been a circus. You have an incredible story and obviously you're going to share some of that with us today and also your music. What's disc number one and why are you taking it with you to the old Desert Island? Well, it's a Led Zeppelin album. I was in high school. When that album came out, everybody was, all my peers were, wow, you've got to get a new Zeppelin album. I didn't know what a Zeppelin was. I didn't know who a Zeppelin was. I didn't know. So I got hip to Zeppelin. Whole Lotta Love, of course, was the first single, but I got stuck on what is and what should never be. And why did you get stuck on this track?

5:58It's so ethereal sounding. It is like, it's as if you're floating on a cloud just before it gets dark. It's got that beautiful purple quality to it. And I like the words, what is and what should never be. It's a really fine song. It wants to stop us pretty, baby

6:25But what is and what should never be

6:49What is and what should never be Led Zeppelin. So, Chaka Khan, let's go back to the beginning. You were born Yvette Marie Stevens, 1953, and grew up in Chicago. If I ask you to think back to your childhood, what comes to mind? What do you remember? I don't remember a lot at all. I really don't. Because I'm a forward person. I really am. I'm just next. I remember bits and pieces. I remember going to school and hating that. I remember a couple of sweet things that my mother and father did. we thought we were rich because they were so good at they were artists they were both artists and we had frescas on the walls and we thought we were in a castle in this apartment they made us the only christmas i actually remember as a child was when they built the dollhouse so very creative parents then and young parents i think your mom was 19 just 18 19 when she had me right okay so full of energy and creativity.

7:51She made a lot of my outfits. If I wanted something, she says, well, show it to me. And she would make it happen. Tell me about your father, Charles, known as Buddy. What was he like? He was a very, he was a serious guy, a Sagittarius man who wanted greatness and strove. He was striving for it, you know. He had some addiction problems that he did overcome. But he was my best friend. What connected you? Where did you connect? Well, I was more like a boy. I was the firstborn. You could take me anywhere. For instance, simple things, bike riding in the wintertime. It must have been cold in Chicago.

8:30It was freezing. And my sister would come along, my little sister, Taka, who's a year and six months apart we are. She was this sweet little girl and more feminine. And she would always get cold and start crying. And so he said, come on, let's take Bonnie home and then we'll go back out. did that. He bought his archery sets and we used to go to Lincoln Park and shoot bow and arrows and things like that. Wow. Yeah, he was a very interesting and an amazing man and he could have been whatever he wanted to be, except for the way the world is. I think it did him a great disservice. A lot of guys, it still does a great disservice to a lot of really talented, smart, intelligent people.

9:16Your parents, obviously, as you say, you know, energetic, loving and creative what did they do to make a living my mother worked at the national opinion research center and she rode a bike to work and i recall one morning it was snowing and she was pregnant with my brother i must have been about nine except maybe seven or eight i was looking out the window i thought to myself well i was always talking to her but it was to myself because she couldn't hear me of course but i said mommy one day you'll never have to do that again you'll never have to ride a bike to work again. I'm going to buy you a house.

9:53So that was in your mind from that age. Your dad, he worked in bookstores, I think. Yeah, he did lots of odd jobs as well and stuff like that. He wasn't a professional, but he was a genius. And he had lots of followers. In what way? Tell me more. He was very philosophical. And he read lots and lots of books. He was an avid reader. And he had like a crew of guides. They would come over and talk about really good, deep stuff. He got my brain working. He said to me that, always remember when you read a book, it was written by a human being just like you. Don't take anything you read completely to heart.

10:32And he gave me a lot of good advice like that. So the two of you were very close. It must have been tough when you didn't see him for a while because your parents separated. Yeah, there was a time we didn't see him at all, almost for almost eight years. That's when I ran away. I ran away. I was maybe 16, 15, 16. I went to look for my dad. So I called some cousins. I called them and I asked, do you know where my dad is? Do you have his phone number? I was on a pay phone with my dog at night and he was there. And I walked from my mother's house to Hyde Park where he was still living. It was quite a walk at night with the dog.

11:09It sounds like a movie. The whole story sounds like a movie, Chaka. They did do a play about it. Yeah, exactly. The movie's got to be next. All right, Chaka, it's time for some more music. Your second choice today. Tell me about this one. I used to be in a group called The Crystalettes. I started the group. It was my sister, Taka, or Yvonne, that's her slave name, we call it, and myself, Nikki, and Finesse. That was the four of us. We were called The Crystalettes. So we used to do a lot of competitions with other girl groups. And my mother, she would make our clothes. She'd make up our faces. She would sew our outfits.

11:50We looked like little China dolls. Did you all have matching outfits? Absolutely. I can imagine. Absolutely. And she'd take us to the competitions. She was like a guru and like a sergeant. And was this a track that you sang? You performed as the Crystalettes? We did a lot of Reeds and Reckons songs. We did a lot of Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin. This song is one of the songs that I really always wanted to sing, but there was really no background to it. It was just a single, just Aretha singing and the music. If I were like 15, 16, or now, I would have put some backgrounds to it. But I never thought to do that.

12:27But this is a good song because she sang, Get in the groove and let the good times roll. I want to stay here till I soothe my soul if it takes all night long. I thought it was such a great thing to put in a song. And I felt that way many times as I grew up. And she gave me good advice.

13:05I ain't had this much fun just I don't know when And I might not feel this good again Aretha Franklin and Good Times. Chaka Khan still worked perfect. You still know every lyric. Yeah, I do, yes. So when you called Little Aretha when you were young? Yeah, well, one of the competitions we were at, I was singing an Aretha Franklin song. People start throwing money on the stage. I was like, what's going on? and they were calling me little Aretha. So that moment for you, was that the moment that you realized, hang on, I've got a talent and, you know, it could take me somewhere. When I ran away from home, I was thinking all these things during the walk with my dog, Mimi.

13:47And I'm thinking, well, what am I going to do? How am I going to live? How can I make money? And that was the first thought that I had. I can sing. Oh, yes, I can make money. I can get paid doing that. And that's just as well, Chaka, because as you mentioned earlier, you didn't have a great time at school. Why not? What was difficult about school for you? I don't like to bash or to say anything negative about the way they taught. I don't know what it was about having children in school wearing uniforms. There were these undertones of something I just did not like at all. What was that? Well, you know, I'd rather not expound on this because there are a lot of Catholics in the world.

14:34I'm still a Catholic. I'm not a practicing one. I'm a world girl. I know there is God, there is spirit. I keep it simple. Okay. You also, as you mentioned, you ran away from home. So there were tensions at home between you and your mom in your teenage years. We're both Aries. We were both always butting heads. You know, and I was always trying to get my way, of course. I wanted to run away and go to Woodstock. I must have been 12. Yes, that's too young to go to Woodstock, isn't it? It's just young to go anywhere much. So she wasn't into it. Oh, hell no. My mother stopped me from doing lots of things that I wanted to do.

15:12So no Woodstock for you. But you did end up moving in with your dad, Buddy, and his wife, your stepmother, Connie. How different was that household? Well, it opened up my world for me in a way because they were very open-minded, modern. So they were kind of beatniks, right? Yes, exactly. So I got a freedom there where I could think for myself. And I loved that. I had a say, I had a voice. And it helped me to free me up. Did that extend to the kind of music influences that were around you too? Oh, yeah. My dad was in every weekend. He would take us to a place called The Point at night at Lincoln Park.

15:49And all these guys were there with their kongas, and they would have big drum circles. They would have their wine on the side, and all the kids, we were in heaven. And he introduced you to Miles Davis, didn't he? Miles Davis and Max Roach, his favorite drummer. He's also the guy that told me and gave me an ear to hear and differentiate what instrument was playing. I didn't know the bass from, say, the trumpet. I just didn't know what they were. All right. I think it's time to hear your next disc then, Chaka, which might be a bit of Miles Davis, actually. Dig that. This next song comes off of the album called Tutu.

16:31I've named it after Desmond Tutu, of course. And my favourite song on there, the one that really moved me, is called Tomas. And for you, I mean, you know, to get to know Miles Davis, to get to work with him, you know, one of your dad's heroes, what was that like? My dad actually lived long enough to see me. I did see an album with a lot of the guys that we were listening to growing up. And that is amazing that he got to see that. That really rocked his world. And I know, you know, Miles Davis is someone you cared about a huge amount. Why was he such an important figure in your life? He was very honest, to a fault.

17:07Not for me, though. I love it straight up. And he scared a lot of people. he was actually an amazing singer but he got some polyps removed from his tonsils and i got the same treatment a long long time ago when i lived in new york i was singing and singing too much and not getting enough rest and all that stuff overdoing it and when you get those polyps off you can't sleep you cannot talk for two weeks even whisper so it was very hard he got that done and he was his own manager. The day after he got the operation, he's talking to a promoter and that was a no-no and he's yelling and screaming at the promoter and he lost his voice.

17:49So I kept thinking about Miles Davis too whilst I was being quiet. But that gives us a little portrait of who he was as well. Yeah, he was very passionate. I love that raw quality. I like that in a person.

18:33Miles Davis and Tomas. Chaka Khan, your teenage years took place during the civil rights era and they were a political awakening for you. You began organising protests at school. Tell me, what did you do at school? Do you remember the protests? Well, I was always the one that liked the cherry bombs in the lunchroom. Pow! And everybody would get out. So these are what, like little firecracker things? Yeah, little bitty balls, little cherry things. I'd put them in the trash. Everybody would run out. Just to, you know, get people to march around the school. We got rid of one principal. There was a teacher there named Jenkins, Mrs.

19:09Jenkins. She was Afrocentric. She wore a garb every day to school. Very beautiful, articulate. And she was on our side and telling us what was the right way to do it, what was the wrong way to protest and things like that. The cherry bombs had to stop, of course. But I can see her right now, and I can hear her voice right now. She was my favorite teacher, period. And this is around the time that you took the name Chaka? It's around that time. Which is a Yoruba name, I think. Yeah, Yoruba, that's right. How did you come by it? We were going on weekends to this place called the Afro Arts Theatre.

19:45The musicians who opened this theatre, they were all Yoruba. It was a really good thing for all the black kids in the neighbourhood who were targets. To have a place to go, a place to be safe. To be safe and to be fed, to learn an instrument, to learn how to paint pictures, whatever. Yeah. And that was one of the highlights of my life. And that is also where I got my christening. And what does your name mean? What's the meaning behind it? Shaka, it's a warrior. Adune, one who loves to touch. Adfe, one who loves to be touched. Of course, a man named me this. Shaka Adunfe, Yimoya, woman of the water.

20:32So Shaka, you were about 16 when you joined the Black Panther Party. What drew you to the movement at that time? They were absolutely correct on every point, pretty much. They only believed in protecting themselves. I think a lot of people were fearful because it's called the Black Panthers. That's kind of strong. Well, it's okay. The thing is, they believe in self-defense and taking care of our people. I started a free breakfast for children's program. Things like that. We were really giving to the community. But the thing that we did not like and we did not go for, and it's only fair that you were able to protect yourself.

21:14And you knew the activist Fred Hampton. You attended many of his speeches. He was killed in 1969. What effect did his death have on you? A profound effect. I'm still mourning. But now, you know, I had to move on, but I love him. I know that in spirit, he's around when he wants to be. But the way he went is ugly. He was killed in the middle of the night? Yeah, they're asleep. Hanrahan busts down the door and his guys. And it's ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. It's a miracle that his pregnant wife... She was eight months pregnant, his fiancée, I think, next to him in the bed. It's a miracle that she didn't die, that she made it.

21:52Did you feel that danger close to you at points? No, I didn't feel in any danger at all. I really didn't. In fact, I had a gun that came into my hands. I forget how I got it. But it made me sick having the gun all the time. I got really ill, physically ill. That's when I decided I was going to be a singer or an entertainer as opposed to dedicate my life to the Black Panthers. It took a weight off of me. Well, let's go to the music then. Your fourth choice today, Shaka Khan, what's it going to be? California. you? Is that Miss Joni Mitchell? Good friend of yours. Yeah, a very good friend of mine, my sister friend.

22:30She took me through a lot of madness on the road, on tour buses. All I did, go on stage, then get on the bus and go to the next city. Get off the bus. Maybe we could have two or three hours in a hotel to shower and clean up and everything. But we had to get back on the bus, go to the gig, and same thing repeated itself over and over again. that's hard and when I had the babies with me that was extra hard we were driving in down south and we're a black and white band and this is refus yeah yeah we're all walking into a truck stop to eat and we used to get a lot of flack what y 'all doing here we were never welcome there was always uh static in the air like something might happen or jump off so we get our stuff to go all the time And we always say, that was our rule, get you something to go, we'll eat it on the bus on the way out of here.

23:25And Joni got you through those times, did you? Yes. I would go in my, I'd have the back stateroom, they call it, the baby of the bassinet, which is on top of the motor, kept the baby asleep. And I'd open the windows wide and blast her back there and looking at the dark. She helped me a great deal. Her songs, not just this song. It's one of her most beautiful songs I love this song because I had moved to California And whenever I got off the bus To go back home I would feel so, so, so wonderful So good, good to come home And I'd play California Sitting in a park in Paris, France Reading the news and it sure looks bad They won't give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had Still a lot of lions to see But I wouldn't want to stay here It's too old and cold and settled in its ways here Oh, but California, California Coming home I'm going to see the folks I dig Joni Mitchell and California from 1971's Blue Shaka.

24:41Would you have been friends with Joni by 71? Had you met by that state? No, I wasn't her friend then. We'd met, but we hadn't become tight. Shortly afterwards. It was when you moved to California yourself, wasn't it? That's right. We were both living in Lowell Canyon. What a neighbourhood. I mean, wow. Let's go back to 1970, though, because that was a formative year for you. You left school and you also got married. You married the bass player, Hassan Khan, becoming Shaka Khan. You were just 17. You also went to see a band called Ask Rufus. At that time, they were fronted by a singer called Paulette McWilliams.

25:10And I know that she had a big impact on you. Yes, she did. Before I came to California, just before I met Paulette, She had a boyfriend named Howard, and he was a motorcycle guy. My ex-husband was also a motorcycle guy. So we started a motorcycle club, and that's how I met Paulette. And then I saw her singing with this group on Rush Street. Rush Street in Chicago is on the north side, and it's like maybe two or three blocks of just taverns, and there'd always be a live band there. So a lot of musicians got good work there. They got to work. I was playing at Rush Over, and Rufus was playing at Rush Up, owned by the same guy across the street from each other.

25:50So on my break, I go over and see who's there. And I saw this beautiful young woman with this all-white band, and she had a big fro, and it was such a good look, you know. And she was singing. They were singing all songs that they wrote. And that's what you want to do. Because we were doing songs on the hit parade, Sly Stone, and name it, Rita Franklin, name it. That's what I was doing over and over again. And I just wanted to write songs, but my band wasn't ready for that. So I would sneak over and see her every break I got. We became friends. She would run across the street and see me on her breaks.

26:28One night, she called me up on stage because I knew their songs. I was there already. You were number one fan. Right. So not long after that, she quit the band. She wanted to go solo and then Rufus snatched me up. I was able to choose what song I wanted to sing. That was new to me. I got some kind of freedom going. It was a tough time for you in your personal life, though, because you were going through a breakup in your marriage and you're pregnant at the same time. How was that received by, you know, I'm thinking of managers, like especially in the 70s, that would have been... It was insane.