Lorraine Kelly, broadcaster

23:26But what was really silly was when I was working at the BBC and I was working as a waitress and I got a pound an hour, we would then go to Bennet's, which was a gay nightclub in Glasgow, and we'd spend all our money. And the song that always got us up, always got everybody up on the floor, Rock the Casbah by The Clash.

24:09Degenerate the faithful With that crazy Casbah sound The Clash and Rock the Casbah. So Lorraine Kelly, TVAM broadcast at the ITV franchise for Breakfast Television in the UK. You're an on-screen reporter based in Glasgow and sending stories down to the main office in London, but obviously this is pre-digital, so how did it work logistically? Oh, well, it was very strange. But most of the time we would send the rushes in an envelope. I would go to the airport, find a pilot that was like maybe British Airways, British Midland back then used to do it. And I would say to them, is there any way that you can take this with you and somebody will be at the other end to pick it up?

24:56I'm not kidding you. Can you imagine doing that now? I know. It's insane because it did look, you know, it was a tape, like a video cassette type tape. I mean, people knew we were doing it. we didn't just turn up randomly. We had a sort of system in place, but if it was a massive story that maybe broke overnight, then obviously we would just feed the rushes down the line. We can do that. But if it was maybe a feature or it was something that maybe wasn't for the next day, we would do it with the pilot. But I love the fact that I'd get mail in the office and it would be head of politics. Oh, that'll be me.

25:31Head of sport. Well, that's me. Me again. Industrial correspondent. That'll be me. That was amazing because, you know, in a big newsroom, women of my age back then would have been, you do the vox pops or you do the funny wee bit at the end or you do the girly story, whatever that may be. You know, you wouldn't be allowed near a big news story. It was an amazing learning curve because you just had to do it. Lorraine, in July 1988, you covered one of the biggest stories of your career, the Piper Alpha disaster. 167 men died following a huge explosion on the oil rig, which was based off the coast in the North Sea.

26:06How much did you know when you got the initial call? Not a lot. I knew there was something big. And the next day we went up in a helicopter and flew over and it was still burning at that point. It was still smoking, I should say. I don't know how anybody got out of that. I still, you know. And some people did. You met survivors, I think. We did. We met survivors. And that, again, was something where I think they would talk to me. You know, if people watched in the morning, they would see me in the morning. So they would kind of see that I'm one of them. They trusted you. Yes. That's actually the word.

26:35and that's the word that I think is really important. If somebody said to me, what's the most important thing that you think for your job is essentially is trust. That was the July 1988 and then in December you were one of the first reporters on the scene after Pan Am Flight 103 exploded over the town of Lockerbie, south-west Scotland. I mean, that was just a horrific tragedy. It was awful. I remember getting the call. I remember it vividly. It was the police officer who phoned me who said, look, get yourself down here. It must have literally just happened. And he said, get yourself down here.

27:05Something is going on. It's really, really bad. Now, at that time, I was going out with Steve, who's now my husband, and we were living together and he was the cameraman. So the two of us could just go. There was no kind of hanging around. We just went. So you arrived as the emergency services were still arriving. Yeah, I remember. We got right up to the nose cone. Oh, it's horrific. But do you know what? It's really strange because I have blanked out such a lot of that because I think in order to function, you had to. because there were bodies everywhere. Everywhere. It was horrific. You know, people's gardens.

27:37It was awful. And I went back a couple of years ago to do a documentary on it and really it was actually quite difficult to kind of remember a lot of it because I had just cut it out. That's a trauma response, isn't it? I think so. I think so because you can't really function. And the thing actually that broke me, I'll be honest with you, was people taking down their Christmas decorations. I know that sounds like a tiny, tiny trivial thing but that to me just said, well, they can't nobody can celebrate Christmas here you know, and that I think that really brought it home to me but my dad came to pick me up and all the way back to our house in East Cobride where my mum and dad were still living I just poured it all out you know, my dad did this thing of, oh, you won't want to talk about that then and I just, and that actually I think really helped but then I thought to myself I've got no right to be traumatised you know what I mean?

28:28I've got no right because I'm just an observer You know, that was all I was doing. And then I had this weird added thing, very, very strange and quite difficult to live with, which was that when I was doing all these reports, our boss, Bill Ludford at the time, was looking at the screen in the newsroom and said, bring that wee girl down. Bring that wee girl down and give her a go. That was the moment. Yeah, that was, and I got brought down in the January because somebody was on holiday. So I got brought down to do the news hour between six and seven. So really bittersweet. Very strange. Did that feel, did that bring guilt with it?

28:59Oh, absolutely. Of course it did. Of course it did. It was that thing again of you could know right to be doing this. I mean, eventually you sort of get over that. But it does, even now looking back and it feels very strange, you know, it feels odd. Lorraine, it's time for your fifth choice today. What's next? When I first came to London, I was a wee bit lost. I didn't really know anybody, you know, when I was called down to do the show. And because you were getting up at three in the morning, you couldn't really have a life. You know, you really, it was very strange. It was very, very odd. It was a very odd time.

29:31And music got me through. It really did. And one band in particular, I listened to their music over and over and over again. And I still, to this day, if I'm feeling a bit that I need, I don't know, I need, It's almost like putting a comfort blanket on because I know the song so well. But Hue and Cry and Truth, this is such a great song. I'll give you truth for all occasions I'll give you truth, keep you calm Give you truth to hold the shadows back Truth to save your heart

30:20Hue and cry and truth. Lorraine Kelly in January 1990 became the main presenter of Good Morning Britain on TVM, sitting on the sofa alongside Mike Morris. How did you find making the switch from reporter to presenter? How different were the skill sets? Well, essentially the same because you're getting the story. Although I never ever thought that I would be sitting on a sofa, you know, a pink sofa with big hair. I never thought about that. It wasn't, you know, I can't say... No, you were in the anorak on the side of the motorway. I, what, with my hair askew, you know, windswept. That was me. And I wasn't hired because of the way I look, which was great because you grow out of your looks.

30:59You know, that's always been something I've actually been very happy about. I remember one exec saying to me, you don't make my trousers twitch. Nice, huh? Wow. Oh, yeah, wow. Oh, yeah, wow. And I was like, well, I'm glad. You know, thanks. I'm glad I don't because I'm you. Can you imagine anybody saying that today? When was that then? That would have been probably late 80s, early 90s. Sounds late 80s, doesn't it? Yeah. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because even though not hired on that basis, you still get judged on how you look, how you present yourself. Absolutely. So that would have been an adjustment, I'm guessing.

31:31I'll tell you what made it easier. Mike Morris made it easier. He was a very kind, very generous, very underrated presenter. And we got to the stage where we could finish each other's sentences. I knew when he was going to do a follow-up question. Obviously, I'm not going to stand on that. I will lean back. And we had this kind of thing where if he asked the first question, it didn't really matter who did what, you know, but if he asked the first question and I wanted to ask the second question, I would just kind of tap him on his leg. And if he leaned back, I wouldn't jump, you know, I could jump in.

31:59But if he leaned forward, he'd something else to say. And we were all, you know, it was new and it was exciting and all of that. It was amazing. But it was scary as well, you know. But I had this thing of just, you know, we're all the same. We all go to the toilet. There's no point in being intimidated by anybody. Just get on with it. But TVAM lost their commercial franchise and GMTV launched in 1993. Now, the following year, you were at the helm of the main breakfast show there alongside Eamon Holmes. Then you became pregnant with your daughter, Rosie. While you were on maternity leave, you got a call from your boss.

32:32How did that go? What did he say? Oh, that did not go well. I had Rosie in the June and obviously I'm freelance, you know, just a taxi for hire. So I was coming back in September, which is no time at all. It's only a couple of months. But I fully expected to be coming back. We had a massive mortgage. You know, we needed to, I needed to work. And the boss called me up and just said, Em. And when a conversation starts with Em, you think, and he was sort of like harrumphing, you know. And then eventually spat it out and said, we don't need you anymore. Sorry, we're not renewing your contract. we don't need you anymore.

33:06What was that about do you think? I don't know. I've never quite got to the bottom of it but to be honest with you all bosses when they want to make a change in a show like that they'll change the cushions and change the presenter. And that's the way it is. You know that's it's brutal but that's the reality and it was a shock and it was very difficult. You know I took my baby under one arm and my little VHS and my best bits under my other arm and went round every station in the UK looking for work and then they got back in touch with me, GMTV, and they said, look, we've got sponsorship from Cowengate, I think it was.

33:38They want to do two slots every week about babies, but they'll only do it if you come on and do it. So, of course, the Glaswegian in me wanted to say, aye, right. Shove it. Exactly. But, you know, I got over that and I said, thank you very much, I shall do that. And it did well because it did so well. in the January, to my great surprise, they gave me my own show. And I honestly do think, I really do think that being a mother made me so much better at my job. You have so much more empathy. You have so much more understanding. You know, it definitely, definitely made me better. And your dad once said about you, there's a wee bit of steel in Lorraine.

34:21There's a hunger and drive as well as ability. Did you say that, my dad? He said that, yes. Oh, he's right. He is right. I think he is absolutely right. And I suppose effectively being sacked when I was off, having just given birth and your hormones are all over the place. I've never, ever take it for granted. Never, ever, ever. I think it could all end tomorrow. And that's fine. That's OK, because that's what happens. And I'll go and do something else and it will be fine. It's time for some more music, Lorraine, your sixth choice today. What have you got for us next? And why are you taking this one to the island?

34:53Well, I love this woman. And I remember, you know, back in the 80s, this album was just played all the time, especially in the gay clubs. It was played all the time. And I had a really close set of amazing gay pals who were just like the best. And it's Grace Jones. She is wonderful. And I could have picked so many of her songs. But this one in particular. Oh, it's a naughty song. Warm Leatherette. Warm Leatherette. Warm Leatherette. Leatherette Warm Leatherette Warm Leatherette See the breaking glass In the underpass See the breaking glass In the underpass Warm Leatherette Grace Jones and Warm Leatherette Lorraine Kelly on Wednesday March the 13th 1996 16 children and their teacher were killed in a mass shooting at Dunblane Primary School many of the children were injured the following day you and Eamon Holmes presented your programme live from Dunblane it must have been an extraordinarily difficult broadcast how did you prepare for it?

36:15Gosh that was a tough one because we had hardly any notes We just, do you know what? We just talked really like two parents. I was just glad that I didn't know that some of the families were watching that day, because I don't know if I would have been able to do it. But, you know, we had a duty that day to let people know what was happening. But also, again, because of the kind of show that we do, we were able to be not emotional. I don't mean that, you know, we weren't mockish in any way, but we could actually somehow try and articulate how people were feeling. so later on you met in private one of the mothers who'd lost a child that day did you instantly know that you know you were not going to go in there as a journalist at all you were just meeting her mother to mother oh yeah i mean it was i got a call to say that because each family had been given a police officer a sort of liaison officer to help them and pam pam rose whose daughter joanna was murdered she got the police officer to get in touch with me to say that she just wanted to talk to somebody, not for the telly, not for anything like that at all, just as, as you said, mother to mother.

37:21And I must admit, it's probably the most nervous I've ever been about going to see someone because I thought, I don't know what to say. I really don't know what to say. And I just basically, we sat and we just talked. We talked about, she talked about her daughter. I talked about my daughter. But it was, it was quite, it was such an honour, you know, to be asked to do that, to be given the chance to hear their stories, to see Joanna. Joanna was upstairs and to actually see her. She was in her little Pocahontas nightie and she didn't look as though anything had happened to her.

38:01Sorry, sorry. That's okay. Sorry, time. But it was very private. And I also remember on the window, there was Joanna's little palm print was on the window and kept that for such a long time. Of course she did. And she is one of the most amazing, extraordinary women and her husband, Kenny, and all of the families that I've ever met. Their dignity and their grace, especially when they had to fight for the ban against guns, because I think everybody now looking back, and I know there's a whole generation growing up who are probably not aware of the story. They're aware of the story, but not aware of the circumstances and what happened.

38:40Everybody just thinks that happened and the government banned guns. It didn't. All the families had to do this campaign, the Snowdrop campaign. It wasn't like now where if there's a campaign or you're urged to support something and you just click on your phone. It wasn't like that. Back then you had to write a letter and those families had to get all those letters and take them to Downing Street and try somehow to make something happen. There was a lot of opposition, unbelievably, unbelievably. Then there was a change of government and when Tony Blair came in, that's when the ban actually happened.

39:14But it would never have happened but for those incredible families. And I don't think we should ever forget that. What they did in the midst of their grief, unimaginable grief. You know, I can't even go there. I can't even imagine it. They're amazing. It was a story that you returned to years later and made a documentary with survivors, with families. What does it mean to you to be able to do that, to reconnect with people and revisit those stories that, you know, you've been there in the white heat of a moment like that? I think it was really important to go back and to remember the campaign.

39:49And it's trying to find light in the worst possible circumstances. But the Dumblain Centre, because you remember there was a real outpouring of money was sent. And that money has gone into this amazing centre that is at the heart of the community. And that's thriving. and that is such an important thing as well. You know, there's a symbol, they're a symbol of hope, really. Lorraine, let's take a break for some music. Your seventh choice today, what's it going to be? Now, I'm choosing this because it is so, so very special. This song was out when my daughter was born, so I was hearing it all the time.

40:24And I think there's a certain section of people, including Marty Pelo himself, who probably got a wee bit fed up with this song. But fast forward 30 years and here am I, standing singing this song with Marty Palo and our fantastic Change in Check choir in the Royal Albert Hall in front of Royalty. Our producer Helen Addis had breast cancer and she launched Change in Check and there we were with Marty Palo who's an angel. He came to us and said, can I do this? It's 30 years since Love Is All Around. I want to do something positive with it. I mean, if you'd said to me that one day I would be on the stage singing to Royalty I'm going to say singing, warbling badly.

41:07But what an amazing thing.

41:32It's written on the wind. It's everywhere I go. Love is all around. Wet, wet, wet. Lorraine Kelly, in 2019, you won your case against the HMRC. They demanded that you pay a£1.2 million tax bill. The case depended on whether you were classed as a freelancer or an ITV employee. And the judge concluded that you were a theatrical artist, which meant any payments to an agent would be tax deductible. The judge said that in your work, you presented a persona of yourself rather than your real self. How do you look back at that experience? Well, it was horrible and it was really stressful and it went on and on and on for years.

42:16But in the end, they didn't have a case to answer. But I just wish that I hadn't had to go through that because it was it's not easy fighting the big guys like that. And then I couldn't tell my side of the story because they could have appealed. So all these headlines were going on about me not paying tax, which wasn't true. But I wasn't allowed to say that. And that absolutely crucified me. It really did. I mean, I was heartbroken, you know, to see things online and I wanted to respond, but I couldn't. But the one thing I do take from it is that it has helped other people. You know, like my case is now case law and it has helped other people.

42:52and I had a brilliant lawyer, which I'm very grateful for. And how do you feel about that idea of you're playing a persona rather than yourself? It's a really difficult one because I am very much myself, if you like, but it's a version of myself. I mean, if I was really myself, I'd get taken off the air. I would, you know, I really would. I mean, I definitely would. So you are, it is a version of yourself, if you like. You can't be totally you. You're switching into a professional mode. Exactly. You're a version of you and a pretty sanitised version of you, to be honest. Well, I am anyway. And you have to put your good face on.

43:30You know, you have to do that. Lorraine, you've been at the top for such a long time. And earlier this year, it was announced that ITV would be cutting the show from an hour to 30 minutes. And it would air 30 weeks a year out of 52. How did you take that news personally? Oh, I was so, I was disappointed. Of course I was. This is the world that we live in now. Every single person in the media, no matter whether it's TV, radio, print, especially, or new media, this is the world we live in. Things have to change. I mean, I have been through so many regime changes in my life. For me, this is just another one, but it's seismic.

44:07The thing that really, I think, has upset me the most is the fact that we have got this great team and obviously that's not going to be in place next year because jobs will go. We're hoping that we can save as many jobs as we can. That's the aim right now. And hopefully I'll be able to hang on to some of these amazing people. That's my aim. But you know what? It's just the world we live in. It's very, very sad. It really is. It's a tough industry. Oh, it's very tough. And it is tougher, actually. In some ways, you would think, because of new media and because of social media, all of that, that there would be more opportunity.

44:41And in fact, there isn't. Do you worry about that? I do. Especially coming from the story that we've heard today, you and your roots as a working class kid. I do worry about that. And I really worry about working class people not being given the opportunity that I had. We talk about diversity quite rightly, but there's a whole raft of working class people, of all colours, who are just being, all colours, all creeds, all religions, who are being left behind. And that all comes down to money because these kids cannot afford to come to London to live in London because it's impossible for them to do that.

45:13Therefore, they cannot get the jobs. that they absolutely should be allowed to do. As well as the fairness of that, I wonder what the knock-on of that is for us culturally as a country. Huge, enormous, because you have to hear these voices because that's what our country is made up of. And if you're only going to hear elite opinions, we're never going to get anywhere, or whoever can shout the loudest on social media, we end up in an appalling state. It's almost time to cast you away to the island, Lorraine. What are you expecting to find there? What kind of island are you imagining? Well, if it's just some sand and a palm tree, I'm going to be bored out of my tiny mind.

45:52So I'd want to be able to go for a big walk. Can I make it a sort of reasonably large island? So it's got to be quite a big enough island to explore. Yeah, and birdies. I want to, you know, bird watch and animal watch and stuff like that. Oh, yeah, I'm sure we can do that. Yeah, thank you. One more tune before we send you away. Your last track today, Lorraine. What's it going to be? This is a song from a band that I absolutely love. They're a bit like Biffy Clyro in that they sing with a Scottish accent. And I really love that. I love the Biffy. And I love the Proclaimers. Now, this song, I was training for the marathon and I was listening to Proclaimers.

46:26And when this song came on, I had to sit down. It just got me. It's a story of love. It's a story of a relationship. It's a story from start to finish. And it's just so beautiful. And there's a lot more to the Proclaimers than, you know, walking a long way. there's a lot more to them and this one That's When He Told Her is one of my favourite tracks of all time That's when he told her When he told her That he loved her That he loved her And he'd love her all his life

47:02That's when he told her When he told her That he loved her And he loved her And he'd love her all his life

47:17Life, life The Proclaimers, that's when he told her. So Lorraine Kelly, it's time to cast you away to the island. I'm going to give you the books to take with you, the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare. Thank you. And you can take one other book. What will it be? South by Shackleton, the book that's by my bedside. It's his account of his amazing voyage where he managed to save all of his men's life and just the leadership qualities of the man. So that would be my other book. You can also have a luxury item. What do you fancy there? Do you know you can get these digital photo albums? Would I be allowed that if I had solar power on it?

47:56Absolutely, of course. And then I can just have photographs of everybody that I love. Obviously, there would be a million photographs of my granddaughter because obviously I've got a million photographs of her. But yes, I would like that to remind me of all the people that I adore. Oh, definitely, you can have that. And finally, which of the eight tracks that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves first if you needed to? I think it would have to be Careful by Horse because it's such a beautiful, beautiful song and it has such fantastic memories and she's just so wonderful. So that would be my song.

48:28Lorraine Kelly, thank you so much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs. Thank you so much.

48:55Hello. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lorraine, and I have no doubt she's going to be channelling her inner Shackleton while she's on the island. We've cast away many journalists and presenters over the years, including Sir Terry Wogan, Christine Amanpour, Lindsay Hilsom and Clive Myrie. The studio manager for today's programme was Sue Mayo. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky. The executive production coordinator was Susie Roilance. The content editor was Mugabe Turia. And the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the photographer, Sally Mann. I do hope you'll join us.

49:34Our culture can cancel someone in the blink of an eye. Celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers and royalty can all find themselves in the firing line. In the age of AI-generated evidence, lawsuits written in legalese you need to pass the bar to decipher, how are you supposed to separate the fact from the fiction? That's where we come in. I'm Manushka Matandadawity and this is Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds. We'll myth-bust, debunk, pre-bunk, fact-check and get to the truth behind the timeline. There are new episodes every week, so make sure you listen to Fame Under Fire and subscribe on BBC Sounds.