Maggie Alphonsi, broadcaster and former rugby player

0:00BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

0:51My cast away this week is the broadcaster and former rugby player Maggie Alfonsi. She's been described as the best female rugby player of her generation and her trajectory as a star athlete has followed the changing fortunes of her sport. She started out at her local club, playing in kit handed down from the men's team and only getting on the pitch when the men didn't want to use it. By the time she retired, she'd won 74 caps for her country, was part of the England team that won the 2014 Women's Rugby World Cup and had been awarded an MBE for services to rugby. Her sport, meanwhile, had acquired a global audience.

1:28Her achievements are all the more remarkable considering the obstacles she's had to overcome. She was born with talipes, the disability commonly known as clubfoot, raised in a single-parent family facing challenging circumstances and had to hold down a day job throughout much of her sporting career. Ten years on from retirement, she's established herself as a commentator and will be part of the BBC's broadcast team for the Women's Rugby World Cup, which will see England compete on home soil. She says, I want people to take from my story that you can step out of your comfort zone. You can challenge yourself.

2:03You can bounce back when hurdles knock you down. I know it's cheesy, but aim high, find something you want to go for and go for it. Maggie Alfonsi, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Now, Maggie, we'll hear today that you really like a challenge, but you have said that you've always aimed to be number two in your career rather than number one. Why is that? I have always been a bit of a fighter and the idea of being number one almost seems like I've reached my pinnacle. I think having the perception that you're number two means that you keep pushing, you keep working hard, you keep striving to be better and never accept.

2:42And I think I've stuck with that throughout my life because it keeps me hungry. And while we're talking numbers, Maggie, you played in the number seven position. Now, to the uninitiated, what is the number seven's role? in a game? They are a bit more, let's say, unruly. They just do their own thing. But they're very good at getting that ball back. Very physical, very fit, makes big tackles. That's what I was known for. I was Maggie the machine. And my thinking would be, I really hope prior to this game, the opposition are doing their game plan and thinking, how do we stop Maggie? We often saw you on the pitch wearing a scrum cap.

3:18And you said that putting it on made you feel invincible how different did you feel when you were becoming the person you had to be on the pitch having a scrum hat was a really good way of sort of getting me focused especially in a team sport there's lots of different personalities there's so many things happening before you cross that line onto the field that you can get easily distracted but as soon as I put that scrum hat on I was in the zone I knew what my job was I knew I had to execute and it's funny when I got off the field and took my scrum hat off it's all of a sudden you switch again you turn into this normal person and you get on with the opposition but I needed the scrum hat to give me that level of focus.

4:01You're part of the BBC's commentating team for this summer's Women's Rugby World Cup it's happening here in this country what are you hoping that the legacy of this tournament will be for women's rugby? I hope that we change the perception of women's rugby if you watch during the six nations we're starting to get sell out stadiums i think for one of the fixtures we had just under 50 000 you know when i was playing for england it was special if you've even got 10 000 you know that was huge so the interest has grown the sponsorship has grown broadcasting coverage has grown i mean we're talking about it on desert island disc i mean this is rare so i'm really pleased over the last few years how much it has grown and it's not just women's rugby it's women's sport women's football has gone through the roof in terms of how much coverage they get women's cricket netball all of that has improved so what I hope following this rugby world cup is that I want more people to also take up the sport now for me it it didn't just change my life it saved my life I think it's really important the next generation show them how amazing rugby union is I mean Lauren have you have you played yet have we got you in not played rugby yet no i'm still i mean it's complicated i'm enjoying getting my head around it we're doing the research for today but i haven't actually tackled a mischaping ball yet never say never i think you'd make a really good scrum half so i think let's let's chat after this episode i think we'll get you in okay so scrum half why would i make a good scrum half because you're very good at talking so most scrum halves are very very yappy um they talk a lot they're very good with the referee so i think you'd be good at that i'm not saying your ability around the other areas wouldn't be great, but you're very vocal.

5:42You're bang right there, Maggie. I can't argue with that. All right, I think we'd better get into the music before I talk my way onto a rugby team. Disc number one, Maggie. What are we going to hear first? Disc number one is Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. And I've selected this one because it pretty much represents my upbringing. So I grew up in a council estate, single-parent family, and all I wanted to do was almost find a way out. and this song just represents that. You get a fast car I got a job that pays all our bills And stay up drinking later I could buy some more your friends and you do your kids I'd always hoped for better Thought maybe together you and me Find it, I got no plans, I ain't going nowhere Take your fast car and keep on driving

6:35I remember when we were driving, driving in your car Tracey Chapman and Fast Car. So, Maggie Alfonso, you were born in South London in 1983, but actually grew up in North London, in Edmonton. Now, it was just you and your mum, Rebecca. She was born in Nigeria. What made her move to the UK? She'd come over here on holidays quite frequently and then started to study here. What was she studying? Well, she was studying secretarial skills. So she ended up getting a job later on in the Nigerian embassy. And she met my father as well. They got married via arranged marriage. And as a result, ended up staying over here in England.

7:19My mum talks very little about her past because I understand it's not been easy for her. and one of the big bits that I've taken away from what she's told me is that she did it all on her own. So yeah, she was married to your dad but he wasn't in your life. When did he leave? That's correct. Not long after I was born. This is why I think she's amazing. She's absolutely resilient. To be able to raise a child on her own, single parent, in a block of flats, 22 floors, very limited funds at the time, that's heartbreaking absolutely heartbreaking you said that she'd had a tough time I mean life before she came to the UK did she have family did she have connections back there yeah so um she was one of six it's an interesting one one of six but a really challenging upbringing you know in the culture back then in particular arranged marriages were quite normal my mum being one of six I think also found it quite hard that she was very driven was very progressive and I think fell out with a lot of her siblings as a result of that and as I guess things turned out she decided to to leave.

8:34So she was pushed into an arranged marriage back at home before she moved to the UK? That's correct yeah and she also had two children before I came into the world my half-brother and half-sister with another relationship. So for my mother to leave Nigeria was quite a big decision. And I think for her it was more around, I can't be in this environment any longer. I am struggling, not happy. My children are doing well. And I just need to get out of this environment. Were you able to establish a relationship or maintain contact with them? So, unfortunately, I sort of lost contact with my sister and I, in particular, Latoya, but maintained contact with my half-brother, Aziz, through letters, phone calls.

9:28And then, I guess, if you fast forward, he passed away. Your brother did. Yeah, and I don't really know the ins and outs of it. I think just a horrible incident that occurred in Nigeria. I think when I think about that experience, it's hard to know that you have a half-brother that you never met. You don't really know a lot about his history, his upbringing, because my mother struggled to talk about all of the experience that she had back in Nigeria. It's hard. At that time, it was hard as well. And even now, talking about it, I'm struggling to get a lot of words out. Because, I guess, being an athlete, I've learnt to just put things down and not talk about it if they've been quite challenging in my life.

10:10And Maggie, what about your biological father? You know, he wasn't in your life growing up. Were you ever tempted to track him down? If I'm going to be really honest, absolutely not, no. It's interesting because my surname is Alfonsi. That's his name. But since retiring, I actually do use my mother's maiden name in between anyway. So I'm also Sanny Alfonsi. So I'm very proud of the Sanny. But it's quite upsetting and disappointing disappointing when you think someone could leave another person to raise a child. That makes me think I definitely do not want to make any connection with this person.

10:48I do not want to give them any credit. I do not want them to feel that they had any contribution whatsoever to my life because I've been successful and I owe that to my mother and she deserves that credit. It's time for disc number two, Maggie. What have you chosen? This is They Live In You from The Lion King. so I love going to musicals and I've seen The Lion King probably about five or six times in various different countries to be honest and I love this song because it very much represents legacy, having an impact and seeing those that have made an impact in your life and now that I'm a parent I always think about my children and then one day looking up to the stars and going actually my two mums worked incredibly hard to enable us to be successful and I think this song in particular with Mufasa and Simba sort of symbolises that.

12:08They Live In You from the musical Lion King, performed by Samuel E. Wright with the original Broadway cast. Maggie Alfonsi, you were born with talapes, the disability commonly known as clubfoot. How much impact did that have on you as you grew up? I didn't really know about it when I was growing up. Not until I started to get into the England set-up and then progressed further. and I remember one of the doctors in our England team saying was you born with he said he used the term club first at the time and I said I don't I don't actually know a lot about it because because you've got a really big scar on your effectively your Achilles and it looks like you've had an operation you must have had an operation when you're young so I went away talked to my mum about it and she was like yeah when you were born you were born this is typical my mum's like she's like yeah when you're born you were born with club foot your right foot was turned in so she said I I had an operation, then I was in the cast and the boot, and she's like, you got on with it, but you're really young.

13:09The operation happens as soon as you're pretty much born because that's when your bones are really soft. When I was young, though, I did feel slightly conscious about the way I walked, my gait. So whenever we did sports day, I used to almost hate being the relay and being the final person because I know everyone's going to be watching the way I run. My foot was still slightly turned in. I was really conscious about it. But now that I'm older, I've been through sport, I've been able to win a Rugby World Cup and still have that condition. I feel really proud. And you know what? I can do anything.

13:41And that's what I always say to parents who have children who are born of it. They can do anything. Maggie, tell me a little bit more about family life growing up, you and your mum, because you've told me about her character. She sounds absolutely formidable. But what was daily life like for you? You know, she must have been working extremely hard to support the two of you. Yeah, she worked long hours so I spent a lot of my time either with a babysitter or a childminder I was very fortunate, mum has always been there for me but I have to be quite streetwise I had to be independent as a result of that I just sort of managed my own, I guess, progress managed my own challenges but I don't regret it I learnt more about myself and I also am more aware of where I want to go.

14:33So I have no regrets. How did you get on at school? Lauren, do you want the honest truth? Yes, you do. Unvarnished. Give it to me. I was. I was a good kid. I was a challenging child as well and would be at the back of the class creating trouble to the point where I would normally get kicked out of my lessons. So I was a smart child, but I just for some reason didn't engage in the school content. What was going on there, do you think, looking back? I would say I wanted attention and I guess I wasn't getting a lot of it in the upbringing that I had but when I came into a school environment, if I acted up, people would see me, people would notice me.

15:17And what were your mum's expectations of you at school? Was she quite traditional or did she want you to do well? my mother was typical nigerian mother you know go and be a doctor go and be a lawyer so how did how did this troublemaking go down with her she was not impressed so when you're when you're at school you get given these uh report cards if you're naughty and you you could see on the report card that i've been quite difficult and then if you continue to be challenging it gets escalated to a head teacher report card which is a red card um i mean it very much equivalent to rugby now so having that red card was not a good thing did you get there i got there and i was that close to being excluded what had you done just my consistent level of behavior every now and again not going into my lessons um being disruptive and i also fight uh laura i knew you were going to bring that up yes i did i used to get into a lot of fights i mainly got into fights with the boys and i did win all those fights so i'm i'm so proud of myself we're laughing about it you know now talking but actually there must have been a moment where it was kind of oh this isn't this isn't funny actually this is quite scary yeah turning point is i remember having a fight with you know the girl at the time we were obviously young and i remember the police being called it was the first time something had ever escalated to that level and the police brought both my mum and her parents together and we talked and at that very moment in time i just thought this is ridiculous how can I get to this point disappoint my mother I knew her parents and they looked so disappointed by the situation as well and it really did become a wake-up call for me I just got on the straight and narrow and just focused on just my education and being a good person Maggie let's have some more music it's your third disc today what's next stand by me by Ben E.

17:11King and I've selected this disc because it reminds me of my my school period but because I kept hearing it, but it also reminds me of my mother. I've been a challenging child throughout my whole entire youth in particular, but she really stuck with me regardless of how difficult I became and always believed in me. When the night has come and the land is dark and the moon is the only light we'll see No, I won't be afraid Oh, I won't be afraid Just as long as you stand Stand by me Benny King and Stand By Me for your mum, Rebecca, Maggie Alfonsi. So, Maggie, when you were about 14, you discovered the sport that you say saved you.

18:10This was thanks to one of your teachers. Who was she? yeah her name was Lisa Burgess she was a PE teacher that was very enthusiastic and I just remember one day her walking down the corridor and I saw her she had like black eyes and bruises and I was really intrigued by this I thought let me just ask her miss what have you been up to over the weekend and she said that she plays a sport called rugby union and it was really fascinating because at my school rugby union was not popular the boys did not care for rugby union it was just football always football so for me to see her have I guess this black eye I was like this this sport sounds really cool miss and she said she's like Maggie do you know what you should try the sport out it might make you a nice person and I listened to her I was like yeah all right miss that's a really good point you're to the point there and she said go to your local rugby club Saracens right That's correct.

19:05Saracens, the amateur ground, which is in Cottfosters in North London. And because I didn't know the sport, the sport had its perceptions. I was really worried about going on my own. So what were the perceptions that you had? What did you think it was going to be like? It's a male dominated sport, mainly people for middle class, white backgrounds. Last thing you see would be a black girl from a very poor background taking up a sport that was perceived to be for somebody else. but when I saw her and talk about it in such a way that was really articulate but also really passionate I was like I will give this a go miss I'm going to get on that W6 bus so I remember going to my first training session turning up and then just seeing a bunch of women a bunch of 16 year olds and then being like I'm not doing this got on the bus and went home that was my first training session you just saw them and then turned around I was like I was like I can't do this and I went on my own as well so I was really nervous about what was it about them that you intimidated you it was the first time i'd seen so many strong dominant women and girls in one space so i departed and went straight home very expensive getting that w6 bus back then so i was like okay i'm gonna come back again i'm gonna do this so i came to the next training session i took a friend with me my friend elif for moral support for moral support she hated it but i didn't care i got to go again she have to play she she just trained she just trained she I gave it a go.

20:29Fair play to her. She wasn't very good. She was pulling me down. Anyway, I went and I trained and I really, really enjoyed it. I felt so free. And I say that because at school, I had the big arms, I had the big legs. I didn't necessarily fit in with the other girls. But then I came to rugby and they were like, wow, you've got big arms. Wow, you've got big legs. You are going to be a great rugby player. Playing other sports like netball, I always felt like I didn't have that freedom. You know, I couldn't do contact. So you were kind of holding back anyway. Yeah, especially in netball. It's a non-contact sport, as they say, but I did not make it that.

21:08I had a lot of contact. So then to go to rugby where they're like, here's a rugby ball. You can run as fast as you can. You can tackle as hard as you can. Just go and play. Had you been self-conscious about your body up to that point? I had being around other girls who majority were quite petite where I was just quite big and strong and I guess I wasn't really proud of my my strength and my capabilities which now I look back I think that is crazy people would love to have my arms even when I came in the studio today the security guard was like wow your arms are massive and I was like thank you very much it's you know I'm I'm now so proud of that but when you're you know young and I was obviously exercising quite a lot back then you just felt like actually I'm going to cover up I'm going to cover my arms up and my legs up and it's different times as well because this is a good few years ago now and you know you talked about the kind of perceptions around rugby there used to be a perception held by some that women shouldn't play it because it's not feminine you know it kind of compromises their femininity what's your response to that view hey look some people still say that now do they do you still hear that of course like women's sport in general unfortunately there are still a minority of people who might say, you know, women shouldn't play rugby, women shouldn't play football, good old social media, you still get those comments.

22:29But what has changed is that you get more positive stuff now. So when people say, you're a great rugby player, I feel so proud, as opposed to people saying, you're a great woman's rugby player. Actually, no, I was a fairly decent rugby player as a whole. And it was about me being amazing. All right, let's have some more music. Your fourth choice today. What's next? And why you taking it today? My next disc is Woman by Andrea Triana. She talks a lot about being at school, the insecurities that you have, covering yourself up and that's what it was like for me at school. But then she talks about being empowered, owning it and being confident in who you are.

23:09And I guess this song really symbolises, I guess, my journey at school. I was insecure Yes, I was frightened To be myself Seemed like a distant dream Lost in the crowd I close the cotons And I hit my hips and thighs in baggy jeans But they said love Don't fail if you're trying I knew in my heart I would succeed When times get hard Woman by Andrea Triana so Maggie you started playing with your local club Saracens when you were 14 how did you pay for the kit how did you cover transport everything that came with it and what were the facilities like for women players back then so I would start off in terms of raising my funds through just doing basic jobs the first thing I remember doing was paper rounds then as I got older I did other jobs working in various restaurants I'm not going to mention the names but just other restaurants which um so fast food places fast food places yeah it was hard because you needed the money especially in rugby rugby most rugby grounds tend to not necessarily always be in in populated areas so you have to get a bus a train it's just quite young kind of getting yourself then these long journeys and i'm thinking i'm imagining you in the winter in the dark and all of all of that yeah must have been difficult it was but i was so driven by the idea of one day wanting to play for england represent my country i want to wear that rose i guess on my jersey what kind of facilities did you have back then at saracens in particular i just remember that the first team men also used to train there at the time and also the amateur men trained there so the women and the junior side almost became kind of you were sort of redundant you weren't necessarily had the first choice to use the pitches and i understand why because back then it was all about men's sport i'm not just talking about my club but many other clubs even today it It frustrates me and angers me.

25:14But back then you just accepted it. It was okay. So you were playing in old men's kits? That's correct, hand-me-downs, yeah. You were training in the nights of the week when even the amateurs didn't want to train. So what did that mean for you? What does that look like? So just imagine a 14-year-old girl who's relatively lean wearing extra, extra, extra large rugby jersey that has been hand-me-down from one of the guys. You just got on with it. I was just so happy to be there. That was part and parcel of being, I guess, in amateur sport. So we fought incredibly hard. Saracens was a brilliant club in that respect.

25:51We fought incredibly hard to get the training pitches because we used to train on the back pitch where, let's say, most people walk their dogs. Oh, no. I just remember our training sessions. Start the training session, we'd do a dog poo search. Everyone just walk around, get rid of it. Right, now we can start training. So you literally had to pick the poo up off the pitch before you practiced. That was the warm-up. That sums it up, doesn't it? But still, you set your sights on playing for England. That was the goal right from the beginning. And in 2003, when you were 19, you achieved it. You got your first chance on a tour of Canada.

26:26What did it feel like putting the jersey on for the first time? It was really special. I was actually playing number 12 at the time. So for those who don't know rugby, that's inside centre. And I scored a try on my debut. and it was amazing I can't really talk you through it but if I was to talk you through it I will make up quite a lot of it because from what I remember I ran it all the way from our try line all the way to their try line on a school to try and everyone just dived out of the way that's my that's my record that's what I remember I think in my head that's how it plays in your mind I don't think it was actually that I think it was like five meters out and I just dived over but uh to be fair after that that one cap I didn't get selected after that but well this is it so so this incredible successful success and then you get back home and you're not selected for the England squad how did you find out that you've been passed up yeah I remember getting a phone call from the England head coach at the time a guy called Jeff Richards Jeff Richards doesn't have many words said you're not being selected thank you very much for your contribution just keep working hard and that was his words I mean I can laugh about it now but back then I was I was broken then I remember getting a phone call soon after that same day from my academy coach a guy called Gary Street so this is the same day later the same day so you're what sitting on the bathroom floor crying I am I am broken I am broken and I do not want to receive any more phone calls but I remember Gary Street calling me and he was the England academy coach at the time and he said Maggie we've got a fixture against the USA I know you haven't been selected for the England main squad but because you haven't been selected it doesn't mean you're a bad player I'd love you to be in this England academy team against the USA So a lifeline?

28:12Yeah, he was like just play and I remember going back playing the game we won and I felt like I could play rugby and that's what I did I almost took the shackles off I took the weight off my shoulders and I just went and enjoyed the game and after that I then realised my focus that I want to get back into that England squad. Well, we'll find out what happened next in just a second but first I want to hear your next disc, Maggie Alfonsi. It's number five. What's it going to be? Wake Me Up by Evicci. Now I've heard you singing this, Maggie, in the course of my research for this programme. And did I sound great?

28:47You sounded amazing. Well, I was part of the BBC Children in Need choir and believe it or not, it went to number one in the UK charts, which I still can't believe.

29:27Avicii and Wake Me Up. Maggie Alfonsi, you took a year out of the England squad then and during that time you switched position from number 12 inside centre to number 7. It's a position that you love, as we've heard. How easy was it to make the transition? It wasn't easy because it's a very different position. So imagine being a really strong athletic person who can pass the ball and then being told, right, you now need to get into the forwards, less passing and more physical contact. So I had to really change my mindset, but I could really maximise my attributes. So that was my physical strength.

30:06And I really owned that number seven jersey. How were you supporting yourself financially? It was just very much working. So I used to do various different jobs. I also was very fortunate to get some sports grants that helped me to buy sports kit. During the time I worked for the RFU, the Rugby Football Union, I had a role there. I then later on worked for a charity called the U Sport Trust. And people, I guess, would say, do you wish at an earlier age that you were able to be professional, you know, get paid to play? Because that wasn't until 2019, was it, for women's rugby? That's correct, yeah.

30:41So it was pretty much towards the end of my career. But for me, I was fine with that because I had a nice balance to my life. I was able to develop my professional career outside of rugby. But then on the other side, I had this other job, which was being a rugby player. So it was hard balancing both, but it gave me a balance. And even now when I see the fact that the women are getting paid and getting paid much more than what we did back then, I feel so proud that we were a small part of that progress because now it's definitely gone to a different level. You played in the 2006 and the 2010 World Cups and the team lost to New Zealand both times.

31:17Can we talk about a moment in the run-up to the 2010 tournament? I think it epitomises the difference between the men's and women's game at the time. What do you remember about it? So in 2010, the World Cup was hosted at Surrey Sports Park University site. And we were all based in student accommodation. I mean, that's a big difference in itself. We have to go and obviously do our own laundry, which is nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's what I've grown up doing. but we had to go and do our own laundry in the campus laundrette and I remember just taking my laundry down to the laundrette and bumping into the Australian number eight and she was getting her laundry done.

31:57I think we were going to play them on that weekend. It was the semi-final and we were playing against Australia but that one moment summed up women's rugby at the time. You didn't have necessarily everything brought to you. It wasn't necessarily even or fair but you know we all just loved our rugby and we wanted to put on a good showcase for for the sport so Maggie you were frustrated in 2010 when you weren't able to win and I know that after that tournament you went through a bit of a crisis of confidence what was going on at that time I basically picked up an injury I tore my meniscus I was out for such a long period of time I thought I could come back without an operation then realized it was not progressing and again with the limited funds that we had the limited support that we had the the choice of having surgery you have to really make a big decision on it because you have the operation that may take you out of your normal job as well as rugby but um I didn't have the operation for a while then I did have my operation got back but I was out for I think in total 22 months which is that's a long time yeah very long time especially as you're watching your teammates progress other players came in took my jersey did incredibly well on that jersey at the time you think your world is coming to an end did you feel like that did you feel mentally low i did yeah and i guess i would use the term depressed you reach a point when you're injured you just think i'm just going to give up now because you just don't see it progressing then there's a turning point my knee felt strong i felt confident i started to watch rugby more again because you take yourself away from it all.

33:36Couldn't face it. Yeah and then I was like right I'm getting strong I'm coming back and then I got that call up to come back into England squad played my first game since come back from injury against France at Twickenham Stadium and I scored a try on return and what a way to get back and the focus was winning the World Cup so I came back just in the nick of time to get back into that England squad. On that note Maggie I think we should have your next disc Number six, what are we going to hear? You Gotta Be by Desiree. I used to listen to this track quite a lot after, you know, England training or coming back from camp when there'd be times when I think, oh, I hadn't performed well, I didn't step up to the mark, I just felt a little bit lacking in confidence.

34:20But you listen to that song, you listen to the words, and it just almost made you feel like, I am capable, I am good. So she would always bring me back to this point where I was like, I can do this. You gotta be bad, you gotta be bold You gotta be wiser You gotta be hard, you gotta be tough You gotta be stronger You gotta be cool, you gotta be calm You gotta stay together All I know, all I know Love will save the day Herald what your mother said Read the books your father read Trying to solve the puzzles in your own sweet time Desiree and you've got to be. So Maggie Alfonsi, by 2014 you'd come back from injury, you were part of the World Cup team and you were heading for France.

35:10You'd made up your mind that you were going to retire after the competition. What were you feeling as you went into the final against Canada? I was feeling a range of emotions. The night before in the England fixture you get presented your jersey. What normally happens is the players are seated in the typical theatre style and the staff were standing up in front of you all and they asked you to come up to collect your jersey. You shake everyone's hand. And that night they called my jersey up and I just cried. And I don't cry like I am. I'm odd. But at the same time I knew I had a big job to do the next day and needed to deliver for my teammates, for my country and for the trailblazers that had gone before us who had won a World Cup back in 1994 for and we had not won it for 20 years up to that point so I just knew that I needed to deliver the following day.

36:06There was someone else that you were playing for as well because I know the team had been working with a sports psychologist who asked you to record a voice message each of you explaining why you wanted to win what did you say? Initially I was like oh I want to win because I want to be really really famous and be really really rich and then you had more thought around it and I was like I'm doing it because of my single parent mum she had given up everything to enable me to live my life to do the things that I want to do and when I really thought about that I just thought wow I am going to give it my all for my mum and many other players in that team spoke about their why what's the purpose what's your driver and everyone had various different whys and I honestly say that's why we won that world cup we knew each other inside out we did it for each other's whys and we were not going to let each other down and like you say you won it how did you celebrate?