Mary Greenwell, makeup artist

22:56I mean, I never broke the law or anything because I wouldn't have actually known even how, frankly. But just this was just sort of this really walk on the wild side would have said it all about my life in California and New York. Holly came from Miami FLA Hitchhiked her way across USA Plucked her eyebrows on the way Shaved her legs and then he was a she She says, hey babe, take a walk on the wild side Said, hey honey, take a walk on the wild side

23:37Lou Reed and Walk on the Wild Side. Mary Greenwell, you made it to L.A. where you stayed with some friends, Bridget and Richard, in Laurel Canyon in the Hollywood Hills. Bridget was a celebrity writer for the L.A. Herald Examiner. What do you remember about your first night there? Bridget said to me, she was about to go and see a movie, and she said, do you want to come and have breakfast with me tomorrow morning? I went, I'd love to. She said, right, we're having breakfast with Clint Eastwood in the morning. So the first morning I arrived in L.A., I had breakfast with Clint Eastwood in his caravan on the lot of Universal Studios.

24:08What was it like? What did you eat? What did you say? I didn't say a word, I'm sure. But I just remember thinking, how divine. But also, because I was so young, I mean, I knew who Clint Eastwood was, but I wasn't yet in that world, do you see? So it was like, great, Clint Eastwood. I mean, anyway, I've been like that all my life, quite blasey about everybody, because, you know, as far as I'm concerned, we are all equal. So you weren't starstruck? No. And what about your sense of the future? Did you have any anxieties about the long term and how things were going to work out? I hadn't thought about that yet.

24:42Because I was brought up with no plan from the very beginning, which is pretty obvious at this point in the story, I still didn't feel the pressure to actually discover anything. I just knew everything would open up to me naturally, which of course it did. But this was just my way, I think, of dealing with things. But by 1975, you'd started working on the door at Joe Allen's L.A. restaurant, which sounds like quite a lot of fun. I couldn't serve food because I would drop it. I couldn't take orders because I would forget them. So all they could do is put me on the door. So what was your role on the door?

25:14Was it meeting and greeting? Hello, Paul Newman, here's your table. It was literally that, you know. So Jack Lemmon used to come in after my shifts and sit with me at the bar just to have a couple of drinks. It wasn't like he was trying to come on with me. He just was like a really, really lovely man to hang out with. You have said that, you know, throughout this time, you were in some ways feeling a little bit lost, though. What was going on? I mean, I think I was a little bit lost. I now was a little bit older and didn't really know what I was going to do in my future. You know, and that's the thing you felt.

25:44I felt lost. I had a wonderful boyfriend at the time, whatever. I didn't feel I was necessarily in a good place. I knew that my angels were doing their job extremely well and I was being protected, but I still felt, what am I going to do? and my friends bought a theatre in Beverly Hills. It used to be a movie theatre and turned into this incredible big shop, right? Fiorucci. And they came in one Sunday and looked at me and I was 23 now, looked up at me and said, wow, why hadn't we thought of you before? You'd be perfect to run the make-up counter. So I said, but hold on, this face has never worn make-up in its life, which is absolutely true, right?

26:23Don't worry, we'll send you to New York and we'll train you, which is what happened. Another angel step. So another incredibly lucky break. I mean, you know, an absolute gift. Yes, a lucky break, if that's the way you want to put it. I would say just an angel step. And you didn't just learn from anybody. I mean, you were learning the tricks of the trade from... Ilana Harcavi, who owned Il Makiash. Ilana took me down to her tiny studio, which was absolutely minute. And she took me down and did my makeup. But she didn't do it. Now it was a day with Barry Piers in the 70s, right? Like we could have put like a lightning.

26:56The Aladdin scene. Exactly. You could have put a lightning. Exactly. On my face. But she didn't do that. She just made me look really, really better than I looked already. Like total enhancement, which is where my whole inspiration for makeup comes from. She taught me through what she did. Obviously, this is the only makeup lesson I've ever had in my life. One lesson. One lesson. That was it. Then I went back onto the floor for Irucci the next morning and was amazing at selling makeup. Because it was New York. It was Park Avenue and I think 60th Street, a very, very chic area. And all the New York women just loved coming in and buying makeup from this little English girl.

27:33And how did it feel for you to find something that you were great at, that you really had a flair for? I loved it. I wasn't surprised because I knew my angels would always look after me. So you just had a strong belief everything was going to work out in your favour. Yeah, but not all of it has. I mean, there's certain sadnesses in my life. I've been in love quite a few times, but I've never got married because I always thought that I'd be lying if I did. In what way? I always felt they were either going to leave me or I would leave them. Because marriage was quite sacred when I was brought up.

28:05And I think I didn't want to be a divorcee or sort of have that, know that actually it's not going to last. I'm going to divorce you in five years' time. I never wanted that on my shoulders before I even walked down the aisle. And I always had that feeling that's what happened, so I could not walk down the aisle. So you couldn't commit? No, I couldn't walk down the aisle. I could commit for the time I was with them, but I couldn't commit to long-term marriage. And do you regret that? Do you have regrets? No, I don't regret it because I was honestly being honest to myself and to the people I was with.

28:34Mary, let's take a minute for your next disc. What's next? The next one is Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd. You know, Pink Floyd was so important in my life and they always have been. I've been to so many shows of theirs. I've watched them. I literally watched them grow up. We're the same generation. And what does this track mean to you? Freedom, joy, them. It reminds me of them. It also reminds me of my lovely friend Poe who did all the album covers for Floyd. And he was in Lowell Canyon and that famous cover on the Universal set with the man on fire. Yes. Oh, iconic. Iconic. So I was with him when he did that.

29:14So, so you think he could tell Heaven from hell Blue skies from pain Can you tell a green field From a cold steel rail A smile from a veil Do you think you can tell Pink Floyd and Wish You Were Here. Mary Greenwell, you worked for Ilana Harkavy's company, Il Makiage, on the shop floor for two weeks and then she took you along to a shoot with a very young Brooke Shields. She was just 12, I think. What happened? She said, Mary, why don't you go and do the make-up instead of me? And he's had this when he's had one lesson. I'd only been working on the shop floor for 10 days and I was suddenly doing Brooke Shields make-up for a magazine cover.

30:11The photographer was Scavullo, who was shooting all the covers for Glamour magazine at the time in New York City. So I was like, okay, Mary, you better pull yourself together. I mean, now this is your real test. This is like, okay, you can do it, you can do it, you can do it, you can do it. So I did Brooke's makeup, really nervous, obviously, but, you know, didn't show it to Brooke. And came back out and I said to Ilana and the photographer, she came out and they went, lovely, thank you, Mary. How did you feel? I went to the makeup room and cried. Oh, just a relief. I literally kind of, I didn't cry hysterically.

30:45I was like, oh my goodness, I've done it, I've done it. I was so nervous, you know. But isn't it interesting that it obviously mattered to you so much, having been this person who was kind of drifting and didn't really have a plan. It sounds like you'd found something that you cared about. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when I do something. You know, if I do it, I do it well. If I can't do it, I won't do it at all. And so also I'm sitting with now my boss, about to go to Los Angeles to open up El Maquillage in Fiorucci. There was a lot of love and trust put into me and I could not let them down.

31:17Mary, you once said that, you know, once you started to get into doing makeup, continuing a career as a makeup artist frightened you, which I find very interesting. What frightened you about it? I think the commitment. Again, it's like that thing, do I just stay kind of like hippy-dippy, which I think I definitely was, or do I commit myself? Well, Mary, you did decide to commit and ended up moving to Paris in 1984. 1984, on the morning of your departure, you had one last job to do in London, the Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher's make-up for a TV interview. How did that go? She was phenomenal.

31:53Whether you liked her or not, she was still a phenomenal woman. Was I nervous? Probably a bit. Yes, let's face it, Mary. But, you know, quite flattered to be doing this woman's make-up. It was actually for a BBC broadcast about the coal miners' strike. The miners' strike, right. And I was taken into her sitting room in 10 Downing Street, her private sitting room, and told to set up. and then I could hear this booming voice coming down the stairs, oh my goodness, I'm a little bit nervous now. In Mort Margaret Thatcher, I had the most amazing two hours with her. Did you? Why was it amazing? What was she like?

32:26Because she was so kind and sweet to me, and we talked about Carol, who's the same age as me. Her daughter. Yeah, and she was very interested in how I felt emotionally, and what I was doing and what I was up to. And then she said to me at the end of me doing her make-up, she said, do you want to come and watch me filming? I said, I'd love to, thank you so much. So I went into the now set up by the BBC, this whole set up for her to do the filming. She sat in front of the camera. She made one mistake in her speech, which lasted about probably 15 minutes. And at the end of the interview, she said, we have to do it again.

33:00And they said, why? Because I made a mistake. So she did all again, right from the beginning, the very end, didn't without one mistake. Then she got up, came over to me and said goodbye to everybody, including me, came over to me and said, good luck Mary, have a lovely time in Paris this afternoon I wish you the best of luck and walked out and that was my experience with Margaret Thatcher So tell me about moving to Paris then, you became famous along with the original supermodels tell me about working together, coming up together in that way, that it was a real moment in fashion history So we were all living in Saint-Germain in this little hotel or little apartment around Saint-Germain, Christy Turnington Cindy Crawford, Linda Evangelista and Tatiana Petit's.

33:42Those are the original four. I did Cindy's first cover in a small French magazine, literally her first cover ever. I never sort of saw myself as becoming famous, quote unquote. So I think it was really about just being accepted as someone who could do their job very, very well. Because during that first summer, I worked with Hans Führer, who is the most divine photographer ever. And he, we got on really, really well. And he was going to Hawaii with Grace Connington in the spring at British Folk. And he wanted to take me with him. And I hadn't met her yet. I mean, she is the most important stylist ever.

34:18Yes. So I had to meet Grace. I met her in the Crayon Hotel and really nervously. And luckily, she really liked me. So she agreed to take me with her to Hawaii with Hans Führer for two weeks to do all the June, July, summer spreads, swimwear, whatever. I had the most amazing time. And then Grace booked me for the next three years nonstop And what did that do for your confidence? It didn't do, what it did was change my career. The respect I got from working with Grace was extraordinary. Mary, it's time for your next piece of music, your sixth choice today. What are you taking to your Desert Island next?

34:56I'm taking Cold Little Heart by Michael Kiwanuka. Because I find the lyrics again, going back to the lyrics, I find the lyrics unbelievable. It touches me enormously. Did you ever want it? Did you want it back? Oh, my. Tears me apart.

35:24Did you ever fight it? All of the pain, so much brown. Michael Kiwanuka and Cold Little Heart. Mary Greenwell, in 1990, you worked on a shoot for Vogue magazine with your good friend, the hairdresser Sam McKnight. The photographer was Patrick de Marchellier and the model was Princess Diana. What do you remember about that day? It was so lovely. It was in a studio in East London and we hadn't been told who the model was, who was turning up. So we were like, who are we doing? I mean, what's the secret? What's the big deal? And she walked in. She was amazing. I've been around celebrities all my life.

36:09I've been around, you know, Paul Newman, first celebrity I met in Hollywood. I was not in any way in awe of the Princess of Wales. I just thought she was the most beautiful young woman. But I wasn't in awe of her, you know. She'd had quite a different look starting out in the early years. You know, she began with that doe-eyed blue eyeliner that we all remember. And as you went on to work together and work with her, you know, you helped her create quite a different look, quite a different image. Tell me about that. Well, I mean, Sam cut her hair almost immediately. But then, you know, the thing is that I did not put the blue eyeshadow and the blue eyeliner on her that day even.

36:46I made it much more soft and more natural. Actually, it was kind of quite a pretty sweet look. There's rather fierce blue, actually. And there was something about the photography as well that had an informality about it, had a kind of naturalness, a natural quality. There's that very famous shot of her. She's in a white, strapless white dress, sitting on the floor with her, you know, her arms wrapped around her knees laughing. With the tiara on her head. Yeah. The famous tiara. But quite kind of informal and fun. And that was a different, very different from the image that we were used to seeing of her.

37:19Indeed. Well, that's Patrick because Patrick's such a natural photographer. And also Patrick was the fastest photographer you could ever imagine. So that would have been like, oh, baby, stay there. Don't move. Baby, don't move. Don't move. Baby, baby, baby, baby. Don't move. And it would have been five shots, bang, done. With Princess Diana, You developed a relationship over a period of years. You worked together for a long time. How does that evolve? I used to go and see her sometimes just because she wanted to see me. And so I used to go down there and sit with her and do her make-up and have fun.

37:50And one time I went down there for the sake of it. I think it really was just for the sake of it to have a lovely morning with her. And she said, do you want to stay for lunch? I went, sure, OK. So in her dining room at Kensington Palace, There was a lovely great big round table. I was so honoured. And so I had lunch at the dining table with the prime minister and other people of super importance. And there I was just sitting there having the best time. Mary, your career was going from strength to strength. But as you mentioned, you know, you have had some difficult times in your life. And one of those came in 2012 when you suffered a huge personal loss.

38:29Your sister Jane died. She'd been living with a heroin addiction for many years. How much had you understood about what was happening, what she was going through? I understood quite a lot, frankly, because I was not naive. You described her at the beginning as being the one who found everything easy. You know, she was sporty, she was tall, she was smart. She didn't find her way quite so easily in life. No, because I'm afraid drugs took over. Lauren, she wasn't the only one taking drugs at the time. Everyone was taking drugs. Other people managed to stop, but she didn't. Did your parents know? Were they worried about it?

39:05They did, but they weren't... I mean, in the end, actually, my sister was kind of amazing because in the end she looked after my parents because she had nowhere else to live. She had no money, so she was living at home. Were you able to spend time with her? Were you close at the end of her life? I think I was living all over the place. I was now travelling the world all the time, so I wasn't able to spend that much time with her. but luckily I was at home the night she passed away in I mean I'm in England which was great because I can go and be with her was she was in hospital and so um I said to the doctor should I bring her her son with me and she went we probably should so I called up Benji and and I picked him up on the way down and we went to see her and we were by her bedside when the doctor came along and said we're turning everything off now and benji was obviously absolutely devastated and it was the most awful moment but you know she went she went in peace and if the two of you remain close you and your nephew 100 we're really close it's all good mary i think we should have some more music on that note what's your next disc so my next one is um diamonds by rihanna and the reason why i've chose this song is because it actually reminds me of my sister.

40:22After she passed away, Benji was at school for another term and this song was in the top 10 for about nine weeks or something. So we listened to it every weekend going back to school. So you would drive him to school? Yeah and diamonds so we saw my sister's the diamond in the sky which is incredibly it can make me cry again. So she wrote this song for me and Benji for my sister.

40:49a diamond

40:52Shine bright like a diamond

40:58Find light in the beautiful sea I chose to be happy You and I You and I We're like diamonds in the sky You're a shooting star I see A vision of ecstasy When you hold me I'm alive We're like diamonds in the sky Rihanna and Diamonds. Mary Greenwell, during the course of our conversation today, you've been quite self-deprecating. Why is that, do you think? Have I? I think you have. Oh, how interesting. I didn't know. I mean, I don't think I was brought up to seem in any way bigger than I am. You know, I was always being brought up. I mean, it's part of being polite, I think. But I've had, you know, again, a wonderful life and I've been very blessed.

41:44And do you think that you had this sense of safety partly because of your background? I think 100 % I was brought up to feel very secure within my position in society. So yes, I think that that allowed me to basically be what I wanted to be without any fear at all. So you had that freedom, that privilege brings. Exactly. I mean, you know, for better or for worse, yes. You know, nowadays, beauty standards are shifting. I mean, we do hear a lot about women like Jamie Lee Curtis and Pamela Anderson talking about ageing naturally. But women in the public eye are still held to a very high standard, you know, narrow set of beauty standards.

42:24What's your approach to dealing with that? And do you feel those pressures too? Within myself, not really. You know, I'm going to tell you something very honestly on the radio right now. I was going to have a facelift, but I've cancelled it. You have? I've cancelled it. Why? Why? Because I suddenly realised, why am I doing this? I don't need to do this. I'm the age I'm at. I really don't need to put myself through that. So I cancelled it. And I'm really glad I have done so. Well, you don't need a face lift. You look sensational. But it's interesting. I mean, you know, how do you deal with it in terms of the clients that you work with and, you know, their insecurities, the pressures that they're under and that they face?

43:03Well, it's going right back to our first conversation about, you know, looking them in the eye, being honest, being kind, being polite and being very, very gentle at the same time. Forcefully gentle, not gentle, submissive gentle, but forcefully gentle to make them feel more confident. Mary, your sense of fun has played an adventure, has played such a big part in your story and leading you to where you've got today. You know, you started out as that kid hitchhiking and exploring the States and here you are now. How have you been able to keep that sense of fun throughout your life? Because it is something that people often lose as they get older.

43:39Well, maybe because I have remained single, maybe because I haven't got the responsibility of children, maybe because I've never felt the pressure of holding a standard for some sweet, lovely man in my life. Maybe because I've always been so individual and so non-committed to anybody at all, even commitment towards myself. You've been free. Living day to day. in a sense. It's always time to cast you away to our desert island. What will your survival strategy be when you're there? Staying as peaceful as possible. I'm going to make my island very, very, very safe. Okay, so my desert island is going to be very lush, very green.

44:18It's kind of a small, it becomes very much my home in its size and knowing the vegetation really, really well and it's totally green and gorgeous. It sounds rather nice. And a few monkeys, by the way. Oh, you've got monkeys? Oh yeah, but really friendly ones. It sounds like you're quite looking forward to it, Mary. I'm not dreading it at all. Fabulous. Well, listen, one more disc before we cast you away there. What's your final track going to be today? So my final track is Heroes by David Bowie. David Bowie was actually quite an important person in my life. I met him with a man down in South Africa with Bruce Weber and Grace Coddington when we were shooting Vogue with a man.

44:53And then we got on so well. So I toured with him in America and it was just like, He was the easiest, most relaxed person in the world. I absolutely adored him. Not at all, I mean, just no ego. I mean, he was just a really intelligent man. And to be sitting with him in his apartment in New York, Central Park, looking out over the park with him there, was just like an experience of a lifetime.

45:31For nothing will drive them away

45:40We can be there Just for one day David Bowie and heroes. So, Mary Greenwell, it is almost time to send you away to the island. You won't just have your discs for company, I'm also giving you the books to take with you. You'll have the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and of course one other book. What have you chosen? A book by Mishima called The Temple of the Golden Pavilion because I haven't read it yet. I love his writing. I love his books. So I thought it would be a great opportunity to read something new by him. What about a luxury item, Mary? What will that be? You're going to think I'm really lazy.

46:14I don't really care what you all think of me. I'm going to take a seven foot square bed of the most divine mattress in the world with the best linen in the world. Oh, yes. That would be changed for me quite regularly, of course, by the angels. New linen, new linen, new linen. OK, so a self-changing bed. Correct. And finally, Mary, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you needed to? I would say I Am Enough because it is such a beautiful, long song. And also the lyric, I Am Enough, I Am Love, I Am Enough, would hold me in good stead all the time.

46:52Mary Greenwell thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs thank you so much it's been amazing I'm so honoured to be on this programme I can't tell you you have no idea how I'm feeling

47:22Hello. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Mary and I'm pretty sure she'll get some quality sleep on the island. We've cast away other hair and beauty experts, including makeup artist Pat McGrath and hairdressers Vidal Sassoon and Trevor Sorby. Kate Blanchett, one of Mary's clients, is in our archive too. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky. The executive production coordinator was Susie Roilance. The content editor was Mugabe Turia and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the actor Lenny James. I do hope you'll join us.

48:06Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes on BBC Sounds.