Mina Smallman, activist

0:00BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

0:46My castaway this week is the activist Mina Smallman. She was a teacher for 20 years before following her faith and training for the priesthood. In 2013, she became the Church of England's first woman of colour to be appointed an archdeacon, serving Southend in the Diocese of Chelmsford. But it's as a mother that she became a campaigner. In 2020, her daughters, Biba and Nicole, were murdered in a senseless attack after a birthday picnic in a local park. The horror of her daughter's deaths at the hands of a complete stranger was compounded by the news that two policemen who were guarding the crime scene posed for and posted selfies with Biba and Nicole's bodies in the background.

1:27They were later jailed for misconduct. When friends first reported her daughters missing, the police didn't launch an official search for them and it was their loved ones who eventually found them. On hearing the news of her daughter's deaths, she says she simply screamed. Four years on, that scream has turned into a demand for change, an end to violence against women and girls and for reform of the police. She says, I'm here to speak out, to fight for a better tomorrow and make sure that Bieber and Nicole have not died in vain. And I believe that if my girls could see me now, they would be saying, yeah, go for it, Mum.

2:04Mina Spallman, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you for having me. You're most welcome. So, Mina, campaigning wasn't a path that you'd envisaged for yourself. And you describe yourself, I think, as a reluctant activist. How have you managed to turn yourself into such an effective one? every time I hear that a woman has been murdered at the hands of a man a woman or a girl I go into at least two days of mourning because I go back to that moment in time and then I come out right okay can I help these people this isn't for everyone you know when you are in this tragedy I know I'm unusual that I'm doing this but it's only because I've been equipped to do it I you know my training as a drama teacher as a priest I find it easy life you know your early life yes yeah I've always challenged authority don't tell me what I can and I can't do.

3:12Don't tell them what they can and they can't do. But it was a reaction from meeting women who have lost their daughters. They are not in a position to do what I do, but the love and support I receive from them is they are saying, you speak for me, I can't do what you do, but thank you for doing it. But you will talk to people about your story, even if it's just an audience of one. There's one car journey that I heard about. So you and your husband, Chris, were being driven back to Ramsgate after a TV interview. And you got the sense that the driver, he thought you were a bit of a police basher, I think.

3:51It was really funny. By chance, we were given a luxury car, TV screens. You have everything you've got. And I thought, all I want to do is watch a film. I was absolutely exhausted. It's about a two and a half hour drive. I sat down and he said oh so what have you been doing today and I said well I've been doing an interview about and he said oh I don't go for this police bashing and that was it you were off I was off and Chris fell asleep and when we were like 20 minutes away I was still talking this drive of me and him were having this exchange and how did it go did you talk him around yeah If it takes one man at a time, because that man, he may know 20 other men who all know 20 other men.

4:42And he will now know the story and know that I am not bashing the police, but we all have a part to play. And so, yeah, he did turn around. He did. We ended up good friends at the end of the journey. Oh, I love that. It's time for your first disc, Mina. What have you chosen? It's Janet Kaye's Silly Games. As a young teenager, we were all listening to Lovers Rock. My first husband was from Jamaica. His parents became my chosen parents. And Bieber's favourite song was Hey Fatty Boom Boom. So the genre of reggae music for me is key. It holds a very special place in my heart.

5:32For so long it's a shame Oh baby Every time I hear your name Oh the pain Boy how it hurts me Inside Janet Kaye and Silly Games Mina Smallman, you were born in London in 1956. Your father, Hector, who was known as Billy, was Nigerian. Your mother, Catherine, was Scottish. How did the two of them meet? They met in Manchester because they were in the same jazz band. My father was in the jazz band for recreation. He played the drums. And my mum was an amazing singer, so she was the lead singer. Complete opposites. My mum, a real firecracker. My dad, very conservative, quiet. But they were both very attractive people and had that in common and just fell for each other.

6:35What were they doing in Manchester? Well, my mum had moved down from Scotland. She already had my sister, Anne. Her father had remarried. Her mother had died when she was 14. She then moved to Manchester to be with her dad. but it didn't work out really and so but my father was studying medicine. You've described your dad as quiet and academic and he taught you to be proud of your heritage and your identity from quite an early age while you were still at infant school I think. What did he tell you? I didn't know I was black I was brought up by a white foster family and you know you see yourself as the people around you it was never brought to my attention.

7:19So this is from when you were nine months old or so to when you were about five five and so when I went to school they read a book it was story time and it was little black sambo the pictures in that book are so cartoon-like of caricatures of of black people you know huge lips huge nose with a bone through it as well so the kids were chastising me in the playground calling me little black sambo and I found it upsetting and I went home and I said dad guess what they're calling me and so he said to me you don't look like that you look like Queen Cleopatra and she was the most beautiful woman in the world I had no idea who Queen Cleopatra was but I knew what a queen was so when I went around the playground I was saying to everybody I'm Cleopatra Quite right too.

8:15So your parents were chalk and cheese. We've got a bit of a sense of your father. Tell me about your mother, Catherine. What was she like? She was amazing, really. But she had mental health issues. She had a lot of internal anger about her situation. She had a difficult upbringing. Yeah. So she was a late baby and she was rejected by her mum. my grandfather was a minor and he was the one who really reared her brothers and sisters were a lot older and she actually found her mother who had gassed herself um she came home and found her on the kitchen floor and she ended up I'm sure looking for love having an illegitimate baby She was jilted.

9:02Is that your big sister? Yeah. She was jilted by Anne's father. And so she had a lot of anger issues. You describe her as amazing. It's so nice to hear you use that word. But having that kind of volatile, complicated parent, they can be someone that when you're old enough to understand it, you can admire and you can feel positive about, but difficult for a child who's looking for stability from that person. Eventually, my parents separated. But the issue was I was well behaved, never got into trouble. So I often got forgotten and was very difficult. She had a difficult childhood. And so I would get the lash back from my mum for the frustration that Anne was giving her.

9:50And Andrew, my brother, he came along seven years later and he was the boy that she'd always wanted. so you got the brunt you say the lash back, was that physical then? yeah, it was physical and emotional she could be incredibly cruel how did you process that? how did you cope with that as a little girl? I found alternatives and I met my first husband when I was quite young 13 and his mum, oh my goodness her Jamaican name was Precious and it couldn't have been more perfect for her because she really was precious and she took care of me like her own and I loved her and always will. Mina, let's take a minute for some more music.

10:35It's time for your second disc. Tell us what we're going to hear next and why you're taking it with you to the island. Handel's Messiah was introduced to me by my sister Anne who came out as gay in the 60s and got into drugs and had to go into an institution. and one of the things that they did there was music therapy and so when she came out... So this is like a rehab, is it? Yes. And so she got this little portable record player and one day, once she was home, she said, Mina, come and have a listen to this. And this music gave me a window into paradise. It was a moment of sheer bliss and shared peace that me and my sister shared together.

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12:22I Know That My Redeemer Liveth, from Handel's Messiah, performed by Dame Joan Sutherland with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir Adrian Bolt. Mina Smallman, as you mentioned, your parents placed you in foster care in Essex when you were nine months old. At that time it wasn't uncommon for West African kids to be privately fostered while their parents established themselves in this country. Your foster parents were Bill and Rose Petey and you lived with them until you were five. What do you remember about being part of their family? I'm one of the fortunate ones. I mean I know that many children of colour who were put under the same situation had horrendous times.

13:04But I had an idyllic childhood. bill worked at the fords factory as did his two sons and rose was a stay-at-home mum everything had a routine wash day was monday i remember shelling peas i used to eat more than i shelled i think sweet peas that would be cut and brought in i still love that smell and apparently my family would take me home for weekends and I had no recollection of that and Anne said to me don't you remember as soon as you'd arrive this is in Cricklewood you would walk straight into the sitting room you would open the sideboard you'd put your hand in take your dummy out put it in your mouth I never had a dummy when I was with the PTs so I of itself I needed I needed soothing.

14:02I needed soothing. And what was life like in that house in Cricklewood? How would you describe your home life? Chaotic. The day-to-day living was very fraught, very lonely. What was happening? Because they'd met when your dad was at medical school. That's right. But that must have not worked out because he didn't pursue that career. No. As I was told, he was the youngest son and his father died while he was studying, but he didn't inherit all of what he could have done. And so he had to switch from medicine to electrical engineering. And I don't think he ever really got over it. Electrical engineering must have been a good, steady job, but money was still really tight at home.

14:49Why was that? We found out later that he had two wives in Nigeria he had a son to one and a daughter to another. Okay, so he was sending money back. He had to. Being a Nigerian person of middle class, you would bring shame on your family if you didn't provide. So your life at Cricklewood, the ramifications of that, was this kind of instability and volatility. Your parents split up eventually. How did your mum make ends meet? How did she support the three of you? well you have to give her credit where credit's due she was a worker so she used to do factory work and I found out later to subsidize our income she would was a sex worker right I was able to put the dots together and she could have been anything highly educated and she put herself through doing the test for the GPO.

15:53And then finally, she was one of the first to operate computers. So she was a computer programmer. Oh, wow. So she made good in the end. So she made good. I wonder about your perspective on your relationship with her. It's so complex when you've grown up in an abusive relationship. An abuser generally isn't abusive all the time. Unconsciously, as a victim of that, You're blaming yourself. I must have done something wrong. I must have caused this. Why doesn't this person love me? And so you're constantly trying to get their attention to love you. It's time for disc number three, Mina. What have you chosen?

16:38Well, I became a Mormon. I found comfort. And this is another one of these chosen families in the Mormons. and the music coordinator, she loved theatre and she said, I've got a ticket for Blood Brothers. It's one of my favourite plays. Would you like to come with me? For people who don't know, it's about twin boys that are separated at birth. You've got the one twin that stays with the Liverpudlian mum in poverty and you've got Edward who's given to the middle-class family adopted and it's the struggle that the the working class mum has this song that we're going to listen to in a minute it's called easy terms and every time I hear it I well up with tears because it's about someone who is using not appropriate debtors you know people who give you money I remember living through this myself.

17:42My mum would have borrowed money and he'd come round for the money and my mum would say, go downstairs and say, I'm not in. And it just reminded me of how hard it must have been for my mum not to be able to provide what she would have loved to provide and the sleepless nights she must have had about how she was going to keep everything together. Only mine until the time comes round to pay the bill. Then I'm afraid what can't be paid must be returned. You never ever learn that nothing's yours.

18:39Easy Terms from Willie Russell's Blood Brothers, performed by Barbara Dixon. Mina Smallman, given that life at home was difficult and often pretty stressful, I wonder whether school was a bit of a refuge for you. Did you enjoy it? Oh, I loved it because it was normal. It was predictable. I threw myself into school I joined every single club that you could possibly I was in the netball team the rounders team country dancing I did everything athletics the acting I used to put on my own improvised plays But you left school Mina when you were 16 by then you were going out with an older boy called Herman Henry you had two daughters Biba and Monique before you were 20 but you were determined to get back into education and you took your O and A levels at college.

19:27What was driving you? I just thought, I need more. I need more stimulation. So I went back to school, basically, because I was going to follow the model of my mother-in-law, Precious, who was a nurse. And, of course, I was in a college with all these naughty teenagers who were doing retakes, who had mucked about in class. and they were disrupting the lessons and these lecturers weren't equipped to you know they were used to teaching people who wanted to learn so I would stand up and say right I want to listen to this if you don't want to listen you leave now I'm paying for this and you're spoiling it and so be quiet and little did I know all the lecturers has got together and said you know she wants to be a nurse she's a born teacher isn't she and so they conspired to get me to do their access course which led to teaching but you taught at so many schools you had a 20-year career what kind of teacher were you I was a scary one you know if I sent for you kids would all go what have you done And if I walked down the corridor, the kids would say, Miss is coming.

20:51I was the go-to for the dyslexics, the ADHD, fair and firm. You'd studied for your English and drama degree at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. Who were you hanging out with back then? Good friends of mine were Jason Isaacs, James Purfoy. I could just go on. A lot of people apply for the teaching course hoping that they may get some kind of acting experience. But I just wanted to be a teacher. That's what I wanted. And so this particular year, organised by Jason Isaacs, he put together a play called Barman Gilead. It was going to be the premiere of it at the Edinburgh Festival. so three of us decided we would apply to be the singers in this particular play and we got in and we ended up going to the Edinburgh Festival the Fringe and we were an acapella group and we taught the whole cast which was huge these songs Barman Gilead and Amazing Grace and we'd been doing street theatre and singing and we were coming back and we were going over this bridge in Edinburgh I looked down and there was a Scottish pipe and drum just put in their stuff back on the van and so I shouted down to them play us a tune and they said no we're going home now we're going home now oh go on play us a tune we sing amazing guys could you and that no no no no So they shouted back, you sing it.

22:40So we sang down to them. And as in it was a soul version of it. And as we're singing it down to them, gradually they start taking the instruments off the van. And start playing them. And start playing. And so we're still looking down at them. And they're playing and we're singing. and when we finished there was this roar of applause and when we turned around we just the whole bridge was covered in people who'd been listening to this and it was the most amazing thing I think I will remember it always. Well I think you better on that note Mina introduce your next disc for us are we going to hear it?

23:27Yes so as a good Scottish girl I love the bagpipes and the drums and so we're going to listen to Amazing Grace from the military band of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards.

24:13The military band of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards with Amazing Grace. Mina Smallman, your first marriage was volatile and that ended in 1989. You became head of drama at an all-boys school around that time and I think that is where you first encountered an English teacher called Chris Smallman. Yes. Did sparks fly between the two of you straight away? No. In actual fact, the head took me to the staff room and Chris was in there. The head then, Mr Connop, said, oh, I'd like to introduce you. This is Williamina who's come for an interview to be our drama teacher. And so Chris said, what happened to the other one?

24:59and I could see the head's face like what don't say that and um so he then hurriedly said oh because Chris actually teaches a few periods in the drama so you'd be working together so when I left the school that I was currently at said oh how was it I said they were lovely but I met this weird guy who apparently teaches some of my drama. I said, he's a bit of a twit, actually. Well, something worked because you got married in 1992 and you had your daughter, Nicole, Nikki, later that year. Your relationship with your own mum had been very fraught at times. Who did you model your mothering on? Oh, it was Mummy Petey.

25:47You know, my mothering skills and my... So you're a foster mum. Yeah. Everything about the way I am as a mum comes from that. And also Herman's mum, Precious. And Biba and Monique, well, Monique was an accident. She's my little gift, as was Nikki. But Biba was planned. I actually wanted to create a family. I was desperate to have someone to love. And I always believed that if I loved my daughter and my children, they would love me back forever. That's the security I wanted. And your faith had always been, you know, in the background of your life. I know you went to Sunday school when you were a little girl.

26:27That was another, you know, the school clubs all week and then Sunday school on Sunday was a big thing. You started theological training while you were still teaching. Why was it important to you to follow that spiritual path at that point? um it spoke to me you know I've met Christians and know Christians who've never had the still small voice I felt that and I know that it's true everything I am now I owe to this this force beyond our comprehension that has held me during my darkest times and you're ordained as a priest in 2006 where was your first parish? Embarking so Thamesview Estate I knew instantly like I knew the kinds of kids that I wanted to teach that I didn't want to be in a posh parish I wanted to be with people who didn't have it all but could have it all if just someone believed in them and we went to get fish and chips the day we moved in and I went up to the local precinct and I said I'm I'm the new vicar and they said we've got a church here I said yeah and it actually ran a nursery so it was like a hall church nothing posh about it at all but it became a hub for the community and I loved it yeah Mina it's time for some more music this is your fifth choice today what have you gone for and why we are the world the artists who sang on this were my music story with my sister and she would sing the main and I would be the backup singer and I would play the bunk bed so I would be the percussion and you know I'd do the do-ups And I just couldn't choose an artist.

28:27I couldn't choose. So I thought, why not have them all? Everyone's in here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Why not have them all? And I love that idea of, I think there was a note on the door, leave your ego at the door. It is people who have a lot of power taking time out of their lives to do something good for the world. when people do that you know the recent riots and when the people came forward and said this is not who we are that's my message of hope there are so many more good people than there are bad it's just the bad people can be so scary sometimes but we don't let them win we can't let them win and leave your ego at the door I think that's always important

29:22We are the children We are the ones who make it brighter again So let's start giving There's a choice we're making We're saving our own lives It's true, we make a better day Just you and me

29:47USA for Africa, and we are the world. Mina Smallman, your daughters, Biba and Nicky, were quite far apart in age, but they were very, very close as sisters. Tell us a bit about them as individuals. What were they like? All of my girls, they're so different. I mean, Biba was the pocket rocket. She was tiny, but feisty. And as teaching was for me, social work was for her. She found her thing. It was her thing. Yeah. And Nicky was like a flower girl from the 60s. You know, I always think of her, you know Alice in Wonderland, you know the door mouse or whatever, the one that's always like asleep. Oh, yeah.

30:27She was like very kind of laid back, you know. But if she wasn't there, she'd be missed. On Friday, June the 5th, 2020, Bieber and Nikki met some friends in Friant Country Park in Brent for a birthday picnic for Bieber. This was during the first lockdown, which is why they were celebrating outside. When did you first get an inkling that something wasn't right? Adam phoned. So this is Nikki's boyfriend? Yeah, about 7pm the following day and said, have you heard from Nikki? I said, no, I haven't. What's the matter? He said, well, she's not been home. and I thought, well, that is unusual. And he said, I've phoned the police, we've checked the hospitals, they're not anywhere to be found.

31:14And I thought, this is strange. So I said, let me phone the police. I just thought maybe, you know, the mum of spoke to this woman handler. She said, OK, leave it with me. Never got back to me. By Sunday morning, there was still no sign of Bieber and Nicky and no official police search had been launched. so family and friends started looking for them themselves. Can you begin to describe your state of mind at that point? By this time we were frantic. So you were at home, manning the phones and then Chris went out to look at the park and it was Adam who found your daughter's bodies. Yeah, yeah.

31:57And he just said, Mina, Mina, I need you to sit down. And he said, they're gone. I let out this primal scream. It comes from the core of your soul, really. And once I'd got over that, I thought to myself, oh, God, I've got to phone Chris. Chris is on his way. He was going to join the search. Yeah. He was still on the road. And I said, oh, can you pull over? He said, oh, I'm nearly there. I'm nearly there. I said, can you just pull over? I need to pull over. And he said, have they found them then? I said, just pull over. And he did. and I told him. And I think I was on my own. He was on his own.

32:39And it's like I've never in my entire life ever experienced a sense of there is no hope. That feeling of disconnection from the world. The days that followed must have been just a blur. And it was then just a few days later that the police told you that two constables who'd been ordered to guard the crime scene had taken photographs of your daughters and shared them with colleagues in WhatsApp messages. How did you begin to process that news on top of what you were already dealing with? You've got nothing in the tank. You have nothing to give. We'd gone to London to start preparing for the funeral and even Graham he was the person the lead person on from the IOPC when he was telling me his chin was trembling he said I don't actually know how to tell you this because I have two daughters myself I was thinking my god what is he going to tell us and when he told us I completely lost it my language was so blue when they left they must have said did you say she was a priest you know that must have said and everything about you're shaking me now oh yeah yeah everything about women who have been let down you know the carrics the cousins the police whose job it is to protect the vulnerable the oath that they take do not do this job to lord it over people do the job because you want to be part of good so many more of our police are that's who they are they stand in the gap for us and we've seen the worst and the best and you'll never hear me bash the police I bash the ones who have managed to squeeze in through poor lack of vetting, lack of funding, hidden pockets of filth that's been allowed to blossom.