Norman Cook, DJ and musician

23:18And so I've kind of identified with that. But the musical eclecticism of The Clash, but still with the greatest attitude and swagger ever. If they got everything to say With as many blacks as heavily sun But it was fun to stop night When I come from stage light Marching from the bass line to the treble But all things ain't got no blues for Reveal All things ain't got no blues Rock Reveal The Clash and White Man in Hammersmith Palais. So, Norman Cook, after Rygate Grammar, you went to Sixth Form College and that was where you met Paul Heaton. You started a band, but not the House Martins. Tell me about the Stomping Pond Frogs.

24:11We billed ourselves as an international beach band. But interestingly, it was the start of the Hawaiian shirts for me. Really? That was where I came from? Yeah, that was when I started wearing the Hawaiian shirts. Oh, wow. So international beach band in the style of, what, the Beach Boys, so Close Harmonies? We were sort of like a bastard offspring of the Buzzcocks and the Beach Boys, I would have thought. Because I was in a band with Paul, I failed my A-levels and then I made a promise to myself and my parents that I wouldn't be in a band with Paul if I was going to see through college. Get your head down, work hard.

24:42And so for three years I learned how to DJ and for three years he went off to Hull and started the House Martins. And then at the end of that three years, he needed a bass player and I was finished in college. so I rejoined him and after dreaming of it since we were at school we were finally on top of the pots I mean what was that like you were Paul McCartney in the dressing room next door I think 1986 yeah he seems to pepper my life that man the first time we were on top of the pots Paul McCartney was in the dressing room next door and he came in and said hello and we were like he talked to us and then it was like well we're one of him now we're like you know in the gang so what was the kind of band approach Paul kept you in check what was the manifesto you know what was the goal back then It was no pop star behaviour, no stupid haircuts.

25:28Everything's about the band, it's not about you. And we were very political, we were very left-wing. And originally too uncomfortable to stay in hotels because we just thought they were, you know, bourgeoisie. So even hotels were up? Yeah, we used to sleep on people's floors. So it was very, you know, utilitarian. We had our own sleeping bags and we were just, at the end of the gig we'd say, can someone put us up please? I mean, I'm sure even Billy Bragg's not a stranger to a travel lodge. I mean Yeah, yeah Even to this day Paul is very uncomfortable With being famous And successful He much prefers to be The underdog Fighting for something Yeah, but unfortunately One of the most successful Prolific, brilliant songwriters I know It's one of those You know What I love is that I saw a drawing That Paul did When the two of you were kids Of the two of you On Top of the Pops Yeah, well that was our dream You had a number one With Caravan of Love Released two albums And then the band split In 1988 You know what was taking that decision like for you?

26:26I think it was a relief for all of us because we'd had this dream and then all of a sudden it's going a bit sour. So we were all kind of going in different directions. And were you feeling the pull back to, you know, the DJing that you'd done, the music that you were doing? Well, all the people that I used to DJ with, like Cold Cut and Tim Simmon and people like that, they were putting records out because basically now they'd invented the sampler. Tim Simmon had bombed the bass, yeah. I always felt as a suburban white kid from Surrey, that I shouldn't be making dance records. And to make it, you had to pretend to be American or black or, you know.

26:59But then when they invented the drum machine and the sound flicks, like, white kids like me could make this music in our own way without having to put on fake American accents. Let's have some more music, Norman. Your fifth choice. What is it? In the midst of me being an angry punk rocker and in the midst of the disco sucks movement, where disco was deemed to be like the devil incarnate, there was this one record by Donna Summer called I Feel Love that spoke to me. And I didn't like the idea of disco, but there was something about the electronics of this record. Beautiful, soulful song, but also Acid House being invented 10 years early by Giorgio Amaroda.

27:36So this record, again, just has changed my life and it's been a blueprint of me liking electronic music. And obviously on the desert island, I will be hopefully getting the Patrick Cowley 16-minute mega mix for my mummy. But yeah, I mean, if you listen to it, it's a house record that was accidentally made by Giorgio Amaroda ten years before the house was invented.

28:31I feel love, Donna Summer. So, Norman Cook, after the House Martins disbanded, you went on to form Beats International and your hit Dub Be Good To Me brought together a clash bass line with a melody and lyric by Atlanta funk group the SOS Band. It was the kind of unexpected combination that would go on to become your trademark. Tell me about finding samples. You must have developed a real magpie streak doing that over the years. Yeah, I mean, so, A, I'm a vinyl junkie, so I've got lots of records. But B, I just, I'm fairly OCD about collecting things. And so as soon as I started making records using samples, that sort of legitimised my crate digging even more.

29:15Ah, so that was a nice excuse to kind of categorise and collect. I remember on my first honeymoon with my first wife, we were in the South of America and she wanted to be Orlando at Disney World and I wanted to be in New Orleans in second-hand record shops. But I justified it as a DJ and as a producer. I needed this, you know, source material. And in those early days, I mean, you were remixing so much as well. So you developed a real Midas touch, massive hits for Corner Shop, Groove Armada, A Wild Child, as well as music of your own. Did you feel like you'd hit on a winning formula? Did you feel like, yes, I've got this, I know what I'm doing?

29:52Yes. I kind of felt that after trying to be the bass player in an indie band, after trying to be the guitarist in an acid jazz band, it was like, or trying to be a producer managing a band and using vocalists. It's like just me in a box of records is like kind of, that's me at my best. and not having to explain to anybody else why I wanted to do it. It's just like, I think this sounds good. So, yeah, I mean, I definitely hit a very, very purple patch around the time of You Come Along My Baby with Fat Boy Slim and the remixes. And again, just being so prolific that I had time to do remixes for other people while I was doing my own stuff.

30:29And a new genre was minted. I mean, so successful that it became its own thing, along with contemporaries like the Chemical Brothers. That sound that you were working on became known as Big Beat. The music press back then were very into creating these genres and naming them in the 90s. How did you feel about yours? Well, it kind of was a thing. It took a while for us to coin the titles because there was me and Tom and Ed, the Chemical Brothers, and we used to play together every week. And we used to call it this thing, this music. And then somebody tried to call it Trypno or Brit Hop. But I was very happy that they came on the term Big Beat because that was the name of our club.

31:08The Big Beat Boutique. The Big Beat Boutique. And if you think that house music was named after the Warehouse Club in Chicago and garage music was named after the Paradise Garage, Big Beat was named after the Big Beat Boutique in Brighton. It just felt like being on the top of the wave. I don't surf, but I'm imagining when you're on the top of the wave, you're exhilarated, a little bit scared because you're not really in control of it, but you're just going to ride that wave. You had a lot of adventures, good and bad, during that time. I'm not sure what I should ask about first, whether it should be the Naked Radio Sessions in France or the time that you were rubbed at gunpoint while recording in the Bahamas, which sounds quite scary.

31:44Well, they were both the same band. So out of all the different... That band, Freak Power, seemed to be the one that got in trouble. Freak Power, aptly named. That attracted the trouble, did it? Yes, yeah. That was probably my craziest time. The Naked Radio Session. We were just being worked too hard by the record company and it's like, oh, and then you've got to do this radio session. And then we got to the radio station and there was an audience of 20 people to do a radio session. It's like, well, what was the point of this? We're playing to 20 people, it's on the radio. So we just thought we'd liven it up.

32:18We thought if we play naked, then only those 20 people on the radio. This is before people had little webcams. So we just thought these 20 people would be enjoying themselves all the more for the fact that the band are totally naked. Did they? I mean, how was it for you playing naked? It was quite liberating. If you're playing a guitar, a bass guitar, you've kind of got a little bit of a jump on some of the other members of the band. Yeah, you don't want to be playing a melodica in that situation, do you? I'm glad we're fully clothed today, though, just to make it clear for the listener in the mind's eye.

32:51Let's have some music. It's your sixth choice. What are we going to hear? The next one is Taj Mahal and Satisfied and Tickled To, which is one of the lesser-known choices to some of your listeners, but I think you'll agree it's a beautiful song. This would just remind me on the desert island of every lover that I've ever had, everybody I've ever fallen in love with. I've put this on their mixtape. I've sung it to them. It's a very pastoral feeling of being in love with someone. The sentiment of satisfied and tickled to maybe just to know I'm in love with you. All the lovers and partners and wives I've had, I'm pretty much friends with still.

33:30And I love them still. and so I would dedicate this to this and this would be my memory of all the good times. Baby, now I'm satisfied and I'm tickled too Baby, just to know that I'm in love with you Baby,

33:51now I'm satisfied and I'm tickled too Baby, just to know that I'm in love with you

34:05Leave it now Taj Mahal and satisfied and tickled too. Norman Cook, in 1994, you were living in Brighton in the so-called House of Love and you created another alias, Fatboy Slim. How did you come up with the name? Well, as you know from Taj Mahal, if you're a blues singer, you normally have quite a strange name. Sure. And I used to collect old pre-war blues records and I started writing this list of all the stupid names they had like Snooks Eaglin and Bo Weevil Jackson, Arthur Big Boy Cuddup and if you were a fat blues singer you would ironically be called Slim. So there was Pinetop Slim, Memphis Slim, Bumblebee Slim was my favourite.

34:45So Fat Boy Slim is the oxymoronic blues singer who couldn't exist and it came out of a very, very long drunken naming session. It was very weird to realise after trying to be in bands with people and trying to collaborate that maybe I'm best on my own. And your album, You've Come a Long Way Baby, became one of the definitive albums of the decade. You married Zoe Ball, who was Radio 1's breakfast show host at the time. The two of you had two children together. How did you handle the transition from being music nerds like me, famous, to being tabloid famous? Because it's a very different experience, those things.

35:22I only negotiated that change really with Zoe's help because there's one level of fame where you get recognised by people who like you. And then there's another level where you get recognised by people regardless of whether they like you or not. And so if they don't like you, they still shout things at you. What was that like for you? It was weird, but Zoe had been used to it. She'd been sort of tabloid famous for a few years before that and she sort of walked me through it. And there's just certain things you just have to reset your head. What kind of thing? Not being freaked out that people stare at you in public.

35:52And we had our phones tapped and we had got followed around by trying to shake off photographers who were following you around. Things went really crazy when we got together. We became more famous than the sum of our parts at the time when we were at our craziest. So there was a sort of acceleration to that. You've talked about the hedonistic side of the club scene and everything that you were part of. You did eventually check yourself into rehab 2009, I think. What was the tipping point when you realised, actually, this isn't fun, I need to sort this out? I was kind of aware for about a year before that that it wasn't fun, so much fun anymore and it was beginning to hurt.

36:33And people around me were saying, you know, you need to wise up, you know. And in the end, it was just one comment from Zoe and I realised that she was going to leave me unless I stopped drinking. OK. And all she said was, oh, Norman. But she said it in such a way as like, oh, my God, you're going to leave me and take the kids unless I get sober. So, yeah, that was my wake-up moment. And there'd been tons of people shouting at me before, but it was whispered very quietly in the end. Sometimes that's what makes the difference. It's when it lands with you. You must have been ready to hear it, I suppose, as well.

37:06I mean, addiction is such a weird disease. And it's like a parasite. It protects its own. So, you know, it knows that if you quit, it won't have anywhere to live anymore. So it will do things to you to keep you. Probably the last year of my drinking, I wasn't really enjoying it and things were starting to fall off in my life. But luckily I kind of managed to, you know, when I went into rehab, everyone was like, you know, one of the questions is, what have you lost? And I said, what do you mean? And they said, you know, have you lost your driving licence? Have you lost your wife, your kids, your freedom?

37:41Some of the people have been in jail. and luckily I didn't actually use anything and I got in just in time. Was it easy to get clean? No, absolutely not, no. Probably the hardest thing I've ever done but I couldn't have done it without going to rehab. I couldn't have just, you know, gone to meetings. I was too far gone for that. Yeah, so you needed to actually detox. I need someone to bash into my head for a month. You know, you will die and you'll be a misery if you don't stop doing this. Was it quite a hardcore rehab? then by the sound of it. It wasn't one of those soft fluffy ones that we read about with the those nice toweling dressing gowns and things.

38:19No, it was boot camp. It was like you had to live in a student digs with fellow addicts and do your own cooking and then walk into the centre every day and learn stuff and then walk home and then walk to a meeting that night. Yeah, no, it was pretty hardcore. But it worked. You've been sober for over 15 years. How long did it take to get used to DJing when you were straight? It took about five shows. For the first five shows, I was so paralysed, rigid with fear. I couldn't dance and I couldn't enjoy it. What was the fear? Can you explain to people? Thinking, what are you actually doing? Why are you going to play that record next?

38:58And why are they going to react to it? And in fact, what are you doing? You know, they're all drunk and you're a mid-aged man who's sober. Like, why are you even here? And what's your place? And why? Oh, God. And most importantly, why are you going to play that record next? Yeah. There's this kind of instinct of DJing that just went out the window and I just had to fight for each new tune, fight with myself going, why are you playing that? And then one night I had this beautiful night in Japan where the crowd were just so beautiful and so into it and they weren't even that drunk. They were just Japanese people, just really excitable when you get them going.

39:36And I just thought, oh, that's what it is. It's just making them happy. and everything sort of fitted into place after that. It all clicked. So you, but I think that'll be really helpful for people to hear that it wasn't immediate. It wasn't like that. You had to find a new way to be. No, I had like kind of 30 years worth of stage fright that I hadn't had because I'd been drunk every night. So all of those feelings that you just, you kept in. All that stage fright came crashing down on me in one day. Okay. What's it like now, now that you're past that and in a new phase? I enjoy my, this DJing side of my job more than ever.

40:09and I get to remember it all. And it's one of the greatest jobs in the world, you know, just to travel around the world, watching people have fun and being part of their night out. And the connection, I think during lockdown, I realised how much as human beings we need this connection through music or football. You know, there's all those things we tried to do virtually on Zooms that didn't work. It's like, no, you have to be in the room with the people. You have to feel them and you have to feel the warmth of this common love of whatever it is. And music's one of the strongest, I think, one of the most powerful ways of bringing strangers closer together and just making you feel like you're part of this big, warm, cuddly organism.

40:53Let's have some more music, Norman. It's your seventh disc today. What is it? Right. So the next one is if I'm feeling a little bit anxious and angsty about being on a desert island, then I must be in a good place now would be a good mantra to have. and one that, if you listen to the lyrics, it probably works if you are on a desert island, turning your desolation and your loneliness round into a positive thing. Oh, yeah, you're watching the sunset to this would be perfect. Yeah, and you'd need to do a bit of fishing. Sunshine coming through A rainbow-coloured sky

41:32Pants pretty pictures in my mind

41:40Oh, what a good day to go fishing

41:49And catch the sunset Bobby Charles, I must be in a good place now. Norman Cook, you've been teaching people how to DJ as part of a mental health project in Brighton, where you live. What does learning to DJ do for people and why is it something that you've been happy to pass on? It was something I was just asked to do by a friend of mine who works for the local NHS and I went along to one session and I just realised that power of music to unlock a mind or to soothe a troubled mind is a really powerful thing and it struck me that people who were really quite nervous or shy or troubled would walk out an hour later, literally physically you can see that they're a weight a weight off them i mean i don't really teach them to dj we just mess about with the decks and we like play with the filters and we mix tunes and we you know but it just seems to help people to relax or escape and i've had issues with mental health myself i know it's like anxiety can just hang up over you for no reason whatsoever and then it just takes one of this just like one squelching noise to banish that anxiety just for a few hours.

43:03And is music one of the ways that you've dealt with your anxiety? Absolutely. I think in my deepest depression I heard an Elvis Costello song and it was like, oh my God, you're worse than I am. You're worse than I am and now you're all right. And it's a bit like, you know, that thing of blues music, you know, there's always something worse off than you. If I'm really down, I listen to someone who's more down than me. Well, Norman, as you said, you know, your selections are really going to help you on the desert island. It's almost time to cast you away there. How do you imagine life as a castaway?

43:35What do you picture? I'm dreading the solitude. I think I'd be quite happy right now where I am in my life to live my life on a desert island and just take it a little bit easy. And that's probably the only thing that would let me retire, would be enforced retirement. but there's the solitude bit so I would, aside from learning how to fish and light fires and build shelters, I would always be gazing on the horizon for another castaway. So just one person would do? Just yeah, one other, one other I think would do it I mean it'd be nice if we could be a few I think that's interesting that you're not looking for rescue, you're just looking for someone else who's coming to be a castaway with you That's just how, in this whole process and then talking about my book choice My book choice is definitely all about the other people that hopefully are going to come and join me.

44:27Arrive at the island. I don't think anyone's ever said that to me. Imagining an influx of other castaways. Right, well, I think we'll give you one more disc before we send you away to your desert island, Norman Cook. Your last choice, what is it? It had to be something that would remind me of the clubbing experience. It would have to be an anthem. It was something that made the hairs on my back and neck stand up and my grimace turn into a smile. So it's Born Slippy. On the desert island, there must be some kind of room for a bit of a jump around. I can't just be reflective and pastoral and seeing the beauty in it all.

45:03At some point, I would have to have a leap around, and this is one of the best records to leap around that has ever been invented. Yeah, this is Born Slippy by Underworld.

45:40MUSIC PLAYS

45:51With you, the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and one other book. What are you going to choose? I am going to choose The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Chesall. For a few reasons. I've put a lot of thought into this. It was a book that when I was recommended by Captain Sensible, when I interviewed him for my fanzine, and he just read it and he was like, oh, you've got to read it. It's basically, it's a kind of introduction to socialism about some painters who get together and look after each other rather than because they're not being treated well by their bosses. But it's a very gentle introduction to socialism.

46:29I read it when I was 18 and that politicised me and set my political beliefs in action. But I think I could probably read it again. It's quite a long book, one that I've never gotten around to reading again, so obviously I would have time to read it. but also it's kind of the antithesis of Lord of the Flies. So when the other people arrive, I can get them, introduce them to the book and then we can build this utopian socialist society where we're all equal and not end up as Lord of the Flies where we're stabbing each other. Fantastic. You've really thought this through. My musical choice is it's not like, do I like this now?

47:06It's like, will I like this after 50 listens? I'm going to forgo the Bible if that's all right with you. So my new utopian society will be based around the ragged-trousered philanthropists. You can also have a luxury item, Norman. What's that going to be? It would be a label maker, please. Like one where you print it on and then it prints out the sticky label. Wow, that's very specific. I'm a man who's had so much chaos in his life and he's found peace through labelling things. There's peace and order and compartmentalising. and obviously while I'm setting up this new utopian society, I'll have to have everything in order, different washing up area and, you know, I'll know where everything is, but also, I mean, I could write my memoirs, depending on being a solar-powered printer and you giving me unlimited refill cartridges.

48:01Oh, yeah, obviously. I can actually write my memoirs on it and then stick them up. Like a ticker tape of memoir. Yeah, yeah. And also, most of all, I would just label everything on the island just to make me smile every time I walk past it. And it gives you that sense of order. So if I came to your house, like if I opened your cupboards, is everything labelled? Not everything, just things where they needed to be. Certain areas will be over-labelled. People who know me won't be surprised that I have a label gun on my desert island. I also have a label maker. I feel a sense of peace giving you this luxury item within.

48:34I'm very happy to make it yours. I'm glad that you appreciate the power of order. Oh, yeah. Because I'm pretty sure that it's going to be quite a distressing experience being on your own. So anything that can preserve order and a feeling of well-being. And for me, it's labelling things. That's it. Let's get labelling. It's what the Victorians did. Why not? It's basically what Darwin was doing. And finally, which track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you needed to? Oh, having listened to them back, I think I Feel Love gave me the most emotion. Yeah, I'm going to go for I Feel Love.

49:14Norman Cook, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs. Well, thanks for having us. Like I said, from the goose pimples I got when I heard the opening theme tune, it's been a pleasure to finally be here.

49:36Hello, it was lovely chatting to Norman and I hope he's very happy on his island, labelling everything. There are more than 2 ,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to. We've cast away many other musicians over the years, including Norman's former neighbour, Sir Paul McCartney, and his former classmate, Sir Keir Starmer. Norman's second wife, Zoe Ball, is also on the island too. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Discs website. The studio managers for today's programme were Steve Greenwood and Giles Aspen. The executive production coordinator was Susie Roilance.

50:11The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky. The content editor was Mugabe Turia. And the producer was Sarah Taylor. Join me next time when I'll be casting the scientist Professor Liz Morris away to the island.

50:45So, Alice Loxton, I'm here for the history. Well, Ben Henderson, I like the formality. And that's perfect because we have a lot of history to share. Why did tea become such a British obsession? How did English turn into the language we speak today? And yes, why do women's clothes still not have pockets? Well, in our new podcast, Here for the History, we're investigating how stories from the past shape everyday life today. Basically, the things we've all noticed but never stopped to question. Listen on BBC Sounds. Or watch on YouTube. Just search for Here for the History.