LIVE from Worktech Chicago 2025

20:22Yes, there is significant distrust depending on the demographic and the community around AI. And part of that is because, again, it's not necessarily being designed with some of those people or majority of those people in mind. And one of the examples I used, it was a hypothetical scenario, but it does happen, is a product engineer who's just phenomenal in their career. They do all the best things. And mind you, this person is based in Cairo, Egypt. After a call with London and Chicago, the AI tool in their video conference and software rated them in that meeting and their contributions as being disengaged, which was confusing for this individual.

21:01What do you mean? I contributed. I even noted some blind spots that people didn't catch. and that was just a one-time scenario. Now imagine if this individual has three, four meetings a week and out of those three or four, twice, AI says they're disengaged. Imagine that aggregate at the end of their performance assessment cycle. Now you have just somebody who, because of their cultural background, AI didn't recognize that in Egyptian culture, a calm and confident demeanor, low visual cues, non-visible enthusiasm which was all of the things ai said she didn't do all of those things are actually a sign of leadership and respect so you don't need to be as effusive in those cultures you don't need to be you know interrupt hey i'll just interject real quick in the way that most western professional settings do so when the ai is not considering this person's cultural background it's actually pushing them to the fringes.

22:03Inadvertently, that person gets frustrated, they leave, and now you're wondering why your top performing product engineer has left the company, simply because this tool just did not recognize her lived reality. So my recommendation then is, how do we infuse the human element into the way we assess AI, the way we design it? And when we get these kind of anomalies, How do we then make sure they go through independent human review to see if the AI is actually accurate? So amplifying and optimizing that human experience is important.

22:40Amanda Schneider:And we keep hearing this phrase, human in the loop. Yes. So AI is helpful, but it's not, in my view, ready to be a thing without a human in the loop to make sure that we have those double checks. Yeah. Not at all. that. Yeah. So a lot of our listeners are architects, designers, some commercial real estate, those like the folks at this conference making decisions for the built environment. Yes. Tell us, what is your advice as we look at AI? AI is an inevitable, just as much as multicultural backgrounds and multicultural experiences are inevitable. So yes, dig deep into it, but use that lens. And an example I can give, say, For example, those in CRE, facilities management, et cetera.

23:24AI can actually be used to optimize the accessibility of your design. Because, for example, if there's somebody who's dependent in a wheelchair and a box has been checked in the design like, oh, yeah, we have an accessible entrance. But then the ramp is at a ridiculous degree where they can't even roll up and down the ramp. Right. Or perhaps the accessible entrance is in a back kitchen. So if there's a red carpet in front of the entrance of this building, there's a fancy event, there's a gala, there's a red carpet. Somebody in a wheelchair has to skip the red carpet and go through the kitchen with the dishes to get to the event.

24:02AI can assess that design. You can program it to say, hey, can you take a look at what I have? And is it inclusive? Does it optimize the human experience? Where should I be putting this door versus this door? at what degree angle is it safest for me to install an accessible ramp? What can I do to optimize this physical space? So AI should not be something that we're scared of. What I challenge us to do is think about the human experience. And I go back to how I opened, which is, as you're thinking about who you're designing for and asking that question, the other question is, who are you designing without?

24:46Who are you leaving out of that design process? And once you do that, you start to see, oh, perhaps there are certain people on the fringes who are not included in this room. And then you can make it more accessible.

24:58Amanda Schneider:I love it. And you're going to see that quote because I wrote that one down. I'm doing this summary today. You're going to see it up on my slide. Let's wrap here because I told you 10 minutes, but I'd love to hear what you would invite our listeners to do as it relates to you and your work. I consult at the intersection of impact, the human experience, technology, and an optimized workforce. And that's why I say I create human-centered talent, leadership, and social impact designs. So feel free to reach out to me. I'm more than happy to talk through what do you have? What are some blind spots that you may have that you do not see?

25:32Because, again, there is no strategy that exists where it makes sense to not think about 85 % of your consumer base. For sure. So you can find me Moji Akinde everywhere. It's M-O-J-I-A-K-I-N-D-E. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on mojiakinde.com. And you can find me on Instagram at mojiakinde.com. I'm up to some shenanigans once in a while on there. Oh, I'm going to have to check that out. That's awesome.

25:57Amanda Schneider:And you can always reach out to me, Amanda Schneider, and I would be happy to connect you to my new friend. So thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Amanda. This was wonderful. Now third of our five short interviews. She was not a panelist or a speaker, but I always find it interesting to hear from event attendees. While most of the attendees are looking at investments on behalf of companies, her perspective is a little bit different than the traditional office investment, co-working. I am thrilled to introduce my longtime friend and new guest on the pod. So would you like to start by just introducing yourself and what you do?

26:33I'm Mara Hauser and I do a couple of things. One, We have an interior design studio called Workplace Studio. And then I also am the operator and owner of a co-working brand called 25 North Co-Working. We're suburban co-working. We have multiple suburban locations in the Chicagoland area and also in Texas.

26:53Amanda Schneider:Exciting. And I think I originally met you. I was blogging for the Huffington Post. And I was looking into co-working and how that was shifting and changing. And we've had so many fascinating conversations since then. But one that I recall in particular was around some research from, I think it was Juicy, GCUC, the Global Coworking Young Conference, that looked at what co-working spaces at that time sold out quickest and for the highest rates. And I still tell this story from stage often because it was the private office, which I think when people thought of co-working then, they didn't think about that.

27:27Amanda Schneider:They thought of co-working like WeWork, like OpenOffice. OpenOffice, everyone hang out, hoodies. Exactly. Beer on tap, social, social, social. But at that time, even private offices were the first to sell out and they were selling out at the highest rates. So fast forward, things have changed a little bit since my Huffington Post days. The pandemic hit, hybrid work is a thing. I'd love to hear what you're hearing and experiencing as part of the coworking community. Sure. Private offices are still the number one revenue generation for coworking spaces and things that people ask for. And it went through some phases where originally it was a single private office, then there were big team offices, like 10, 20 people in one office, and everyone just like everyone hanged together in one room.

28:12But it's actually gotten back to more individual offices where teams will have an area in a co-working space, and they'll have multiple offices, but usually no more than three or four in an office. So it's changed a little bit. We still have flex space or open space, but it's really the amenities and meetings and collaboration spaces that people are looking to use. A lot of people who come in as members or users of co-working space are looking for a place to go, even though they do have a home office or they might have a corporate office, as another place to go for productive gatherings. Just like what they say for enterprise employees here at the WorkTech Conference, people are looking to have meetings with each other or collaborate with each other or be together.

28:59So what we're selling a lot are packages for meeting rooms.

29:02Amanda Schneider:And is that like a function of commuting? Company A has a downtown office and rather than going all the way downtown, maybe some of their teams will meet in Geneva. Sure. So people are remote or distributed. So what's a central location that people can come? We'll schedule quarterly meetings at your office or every Wednesday. Say there's a group that comes in that wants to be in this room using that space. Or an executive lives in Barrington, let's say, and they want to come to our Schaumburg office. And so they'll have the other leadership team come out and meet them in Schaumburg, for example.

29:34So it's just what's convenient, what's there, and what tools do you have? So almost every room has LED monitors and Zoom capabilities. So they're hybrid meetings, marker boards, things like that. But it's also just a place where people can just come gather, grab your laptops, and sit in a room. So in a couple of our locations, teams have actually, offices are not just reserved, but they'll have a meeting room that they designate. Like this is our team's meeting room versus use the 25 North meeting rooms. And then they'll just use that so people could go in and out and sit down. And what was the statistic they said was 80 % of all meetings are unplanned when someone's in an office.

30:12That's really true.

30:12Amanda Schneider:Which is interesting, again, because I love studying co-working because to me, it's taking something that people would normally not even pay for, not even think about. You join an office and we just had a session on key cards. You get a key card and it's just where you go. So I always thought it was fascinating to look at co-working and say, what will people pay for? This thing that they've historically never paid for before, they find so much value that they're willing to pay, whether it's company money or some of your clients, I'm sure, are personal clients. And so I've always thought that was interesting.

30:42Amanda Schneider:But one of the interesting things to me right now is I hate the RTO conversation. And one of the things I always question, or I guess caution our industry is, let's not get so excited about returning to something that we forget about what forward could look like. And all of these spaces in between. And I know that you have a design background. You have a design team that probably learns from what people are paying for in your co-working spaces. What are these spaces in between that we need to think about? Is it just these meeting spaces and people are using that or are there others? I think we need a work club.

31:15Like we need a place like you go to the health club or you go to your country club or you go to a swim club or you belong to a CrossFit gym or whatever. You have the sense of community. And I think that's what draws people to come into what would be a co-working space. So it's really the idea that you could work alongside others even if you go to your office and do your thing. There's this little community that's there and you're not lonely. even if you could be around your neighbors or other people that you know but still get your work done but it's just other people who are doing what you're doing yeah and you can learn from them experience life from them ask questions from them it's that kind of camaraderie that you don't get by being alone or being on zoom or even just commuting downtown to an office where you might not see because in the hybrid situation of today's work world and really I think there's a new word that has come out.

32:05I don't like the word office anymore because you, you can office anywhere. Like you office at home. Like what is going to the office mean? If you put, you put your out of office on, I'll be out of the office. I'm not really in an office, but I'm just not going to be focused on my work day today. I'm going to be doing something else. So I just feel like it's some place, like I said, like a work club of sorts that draws people together to come and do the

32:28Amanda Schneider:thing that they have to do on a regular basis and be around people that they like to be around. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I did a little video interview for one of the companies that's here earlier. And one of the things I talked about is that work is a verb. When my dad said to me as a kid, he's going to work, it was a noun, right? That meant he was probably physically picking up a briefcase and driving in a car to a physical location. When I tell my kids now, I have built a fully remote company, I'm going to work. That means literally, I'm going to open my laptop and do stuff somewhere.

32:57Amanda Schneider:Wherever, wherever, maybe at a co-working facility. So I think it's an interesting shift that's going to happen with our culture. Agree. Well, we're hearing the bell, so that means we probably have to wrap this up. Step away and learn some more. Yeah, we have to go learn some more. But Mara, I want to thank you so much for sharing your perspective and joining us on the podcast today. Thanks for having me back. In our fourth of five interviews, we hear from a work tech panelist talking about one of the other hot topics Samantha mentioned in the intro, neurodiversity. We have just wrapped up the event for the day and I have another guest here.

33:30Amanda Schneider:So Olivia, I would love it if you would start by introducing yourself, tell us who you are, what you do, and most importantly, what you did here today. Sure. My name is Olivia Daniels-Inveed. I'm with HOK, an architecture and design firm. I'm out of the Chicago office, senior project interior designer. And today I was here talking on a panel about neuroinclusivity, how we bring that to the office on a global scale for companies that have a lot of offices, maybe they're going through the reorganization structure, like how do they bring that into their future for their workplace? That's great. And I feel like neuroinclusion is such a buzzword right now.

34:04Amanda Schneider:It really is, yeah. We do CEUs. We develop CEUs for clients and everyone's, oh, I want one on neuroinclusion. But you all are a little bit unique in that you've got some real data, real research. You've got a Kay Sargent and now a book. So tell us a little bit about where your unique insight comes from. And Kay will probably say this too, that it comes from being curious and really digging in with our clients on, okay, what are we trying to solve for you? We had a question, I think it was like 2016 or so at this point, about how do we develop a workplace for someone who has ADHD? There was one person on their team and they were like, is anything that we're doing here today going to impact them negatively?

34:46And it was a question that really just sprung into all of this research, partnering with different people, too, on how we come to the data, because that was a big thing we talked about today. It was all about data. And storytelling with data. And storytelling with data. So how do you do that? And how do you talk about it in a different way that kind of differentiates your brand, the culture you're trying to solve for, and how you bring that together?

35:10Amanda Schneider:And I thought you did a good job today of, I've heard a lot of these talks, but a lot of them that are like, here's how you design for ADHD, and here's how you design for someone who's overstimulated, and here's how you design for someone who's understimulated. And where I could never reconcile is how you make one space do all of these things. So will you share the example about what it means if you like to be more stimulated or less stimulated, how everyone exists on a spectrum, and even how you're bringing those safe spaces into a stadium or something that could be naturally overstimulated? Share what you just shared on stage.

35:41Amanda Schneider:Sure. So we've been actually doing a lot of these multi-sensory rooms, as we're calling them, acknowledging that there's a big spectrum of how people process stimuli. So you can be someone who's hypersensitive and you need less stimuli, you're sensory avoiding, or you can be someone who's hyposensitive and you're sensory seeking. So what we have to do, and we're given typically pretty small spaces for this, we have to get very creative, is how do we come to the table for these folks who are maybe attending a live event, which can be full of stimuli. You think of the, we were talking about Taylor Swift earlier at the conference.

36:18So her heiress tour, there's just, there's lights, there's sounds, there's just so much stimuli. And somebody who can't process that, they need to step away for a little bit, but they don't want to leave the venue to be able to do that. So how do you create some rooms and also navigate people to these rooms, which I think is a big one because often we're given storage closets that, okay, we have this storage closet. Okay, it's like in the bowels of the building.

36:43Amanda Schneider:It takes me back to like my breastfeeding days when I was like hiding in a chair closet. Yeah, exactly. So how do you do that for them and be able to give them a space where they can still be included? It goes back to being inclusive. How do you have people be included in the live events, but be able to do it in a way that supports their needs? We have rooms then that you can have a lot of variety control and choice on if you need a private moment if you want to be in a space that's tactile elements where you can maybe have a lego wall that's something that we do you can adjust the lights you can adjust the sound color of the lights color temperature even and just have kind of some control of your environment when you're in a space that largely you can't control and i'm very intrigued too and encouraged because a lot of these stadiums they have to have sensory rooms to be able to host larger events now.

37:36Amanda Schneider:Interesting. Required by who? Like by FIFA, for example, to be able to host World Cups or what have you. They need to have sensory rooms to be able to host an event. Interesting. Which I'm loving. And I think the interesting thing about this is even if you yourself don't have a recognized disability, you can still imagine a time when you're overwhelmed, when you needed a quiet space, when a Taylor Swift concert or a FIFA screaming soccer match left you wanting for just a moment of serene peace and you didn't want to go to a chair closet. I know I told you I keep this to 10 minutes, but let's make sure that our listeners can find out where to learn more about this research.

38:16You can go to HOK's website, hok.com, look for insights. You can click on that or ideas and it takes you to all of the written research we've done for any of our vertical markets. And we play in a lot of vertical markets. We also have the book that you can buy on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, that sort of thing. It's called Designing for Neuroinclusive Workplaces, and it's authored by Kay Sargent, who is our Director of Thought Leadership and Research.

38:42Amanda Schneider:Wonderful. And if you had advice for our listeners, what's your advice for them when it comes to this topic? I'd say, and this came up today too, listen to your people. So I would say include them in the decision-making process. Some of our clients have DEI committees or people who identify as neurodivergent and they have neurodivergent groups, but bring them into the fold. We do this a lot with our clients where we will meet with those groups and review company standards built for the built environment and then be able to evaluate what works best for their specific needs as a company, as a brand, and as their culture, how they can move forward with that.

39:24Amanda Schneider:And what would you say was your biggest aha for today? Of all the speakers, everything you heard? Because data is king here, especially at this conference, how do you use that data effectively in balancing the qualitative versus quantitative data? You have to honor both, but be able to balance the use of both of those. And I also, I'll leave on this quote of data without context is noise, which I thought was really. Tucker Dupree. BP. That was his quote. We're going to try and find him if we can catch him before he leaves. Yeah. I thought that was a good one too. We'll leave it for that then. Awesome.

39:58Amanda Schneider:Thank you so much for joining us on the pod. And I will see you at our workplace event coming up in just a couple of weeks. Pack us on. Love it. Last, but definitely not least, is a man who played many roles at the conference today. audience member, panelists, and for many of our listeners, client. Tucker, thank you for joining me. And would you start by just introducing yourself, telling us who you are, what your role, and why you're here at WorkTech? Yeah, my name is Tucker Dupree. I am on our global workplace team that manages our technology and innovation and looking at what we're doing today and our business as usual product and looking at tech stack and then also looking into the future through a program at BP that we call iLab that we partnered with JLL to bring in innovation and have the ability to push the limits on the workplace.

40:43Amanda Schneider:That's awesome. And on a personal note, you're an Olympian swimmer, right? Yeah. Yeah. Tell us more about that. Yeah. Prior to working at BP, I was a professional athlete. I got the opportunity to represent Team USA in three games and I won four medals and three in London and then one in Rio. And I was actually sponsored by BP before I worked at BP. And so it was awesome to transition into a company that really did help support my athletic career and now my professional career. And now they have pictures of you in a swimsuit on the walls at BP, which is not awkward at all. Yeah, that's awesome.

41:14Amanda Schneider:So tell me a little bit about what you hope to get out of this conference. This is not your first work tech. No, it is. Your first work tech. Okay. So what brought you here? What answers are you looking for as you think about your strategy? I think the biggest thing for me is the workplace is about community and listening and learning is something that I am really focusing on in the aspect of making sure that we know we're not doing it to the best all the time. And having that vulnerability is a big step for us and making sure that we're listening to the networks and what other people are doing.

41:42I really was excited when I looked at the agenda, asking to speak at this conference as well. And the networking and listening to stories and everyone's different pieces they're working on is really helping me get energized and go back to work. And I'm excited to literally call my boss tomorrow and just give him the download because I think that there's a lot of problems we're all trying to solve and you can't do it alone.

41:59Amanda Schneider:Nice. Now we'll give him a podcast that you can just share with him and be like, hey, we got it. Yeah, I have. I love this podcast. It's great. That's awesome. So talk about then what you learned today. You knew a lot coming in here. You were one of the speakers, but surely you learned something. What is one aha that you're taking away today that you maybe hadn't thought about in that way when you came in today? I'm not going to actually go with AI just because I know that's a hot button. I would say the biggest thing that I actually took away is that I think when we're in the weeds and we're in our offices and we're really fighting this fight, it's really common for us to feel hard on ourselves and what we're doing.

42:32And the thing that actually I think really helped, I don't know, clarify is that we're not the only ones. I think that we're all in our own different boats in the same storm. When we look at this, it's people first, and we really try and drive that home on our experience team at BP. And it's nice to come to industry-leading conferences and listen to this and hear that we're up against the same problems, but the fact that we're going after it a certain way and really designing after the human element, I think is really important to me as a person with a disability. every day that we come to work, any time that we can remove barriers and have the opportunity to say, listen, you're not alone.

43:05We want to make sure that this is as simple as possible and look at that human journey and what that looks like. I said this at the end of my panel as well, is if I could give advice to anyone in the workplace environment is that metrics and what we look at, it's not just a number in the dashboard, it's success is felt. And that is something to me that I really do think is true. I think that it's easy to get in stakeholder meetings and look at things and say, it's always back to the numbers, the budgets. But at the end the day, like we're looking at those numbers as a financial piece when I'm looking at it as culture and people, because the people are what really give us our job as well.

43:37So I think that's all those things together.

43:39Amanda Schneider:Yeah. And I think you were one of the most quoted speakers here. You've been quoted on this podcast already today, which is without context, data is just noise. So talk about that a little bit. Prior to workplace, I actually was in a marketing role at BP and marketing is really done well when it comes to storytelling and simplicity. So for what we're trying to do is tell that story. You can go into a lot of meetings and you sit there and say, okay, here's occupancy numbers and all that. You had to look at the audience and how you're telling that story because otherwise it's just a number and it doesn't really resonate with, is that good or bad?

44:11And so for us, I think that having the context of that's a good number and this is why is something we get to as workplace professionals tell that story. And sometimes I think it's easy to just throw those things on a slide and be like, yeah, that's what it is. But I think that when you add that context of, no, that number is really good. And this is why, because you're creating a culture where people want to come to the office, right? That's RTO, the acronym that I think everyone else twitches. You have the ability to say, hey, 60 % occupancy. That's amazing. And that's because the culture of what we do at BP is what's powerful and why people want to come to work.

44:44It comes to that experience of how do you interact and differentiate between my home office and when I come in. Those are the things that I think really do help tell that story rather than And it just being like, you're doing great. It really does resonate with leadership and having the ability to not manage up, but also say, hey, we're doing this. And this is because our company is great. And that's why people want to come here.

45:02Amanda Schneider:And something else that came up I felt was a common theme today related to data was this idea of who's included in that data and whose perspectives are not included. That was part of the AI conversation. You mentioned a disability earlier. And I think your story with BP is really amazing. So could you talk about for our listeners, how has BP embraced that for you? Sure. At the age of 17 years old, I woke up on October 16, 2006. And when I did, I remember literally rubbing my right eye, looking out at my left eye, and I couldn't see a sticker on my closet door. Over the course of three months, I lost 80 % of my vision centrally.

45:34And with that disability, it was something that I didn't prepare for. I had no idea this was going to happen to me. And so being faced with that, I think that it really had a moment where one of my swim coaches at the time basically said, you have a choice. You can pick between what's right and what's easy. And it was easy for that to become a moment where I was upset or I could do the right thing and leave a legacy. So that's the thing that I've tried to manifest and help out with different swimmers and different people going through things like losing your vision or acquiring a disability. But at BP, I think that coming into an organization that is so massive, there was a lot of things that I had to be the trailblazer on of, hey, I'm a blind person in corporate America.

46:11What does that look like? and we didn't have the answers right away. And I think that was okay because to me, I didn't look at this as like a, oh, bad on BP. I looked at it as, hey, we need to pave the way for that next blind employee that comes in. So I think that we've been able to grow and I've been so fortunate to have amazing managers that really respect that and look at me as a person first. Those are the things that I do really think that also is changing in the disability community. I think that we're really trying to be looking at that quality and making sure that people understand that we're not asking for special treatment.

46:42we're asking for what everyone else receives and it might have to come with a different accommodation or a different thing that really helps us have the opportunity to perform next to our peers. Those are the things that I really get excited about and again BP has been really I would say supportive in the aspect of we're building different things. I know Accenture was talking today also about some of their accessibility centers and we've actually seen one and we've tried to build our own version of that and it's having a company that doesn't just look at people with disabilities as all accommodations, but actually looking at us as, hey, they add value.

47:14Those are the things that I really do look at what we do as a company and say, hey, I'm in the right place. I know this is a good fit for me.

47:21Amanda Schneider:Yeah. I love that authenticity. And I have to say, holy crap, you took your swim coach's advice, like you could do what's easy, or then you blew it out of the water. You went to the Olympics and it sounds like you're doing the same for the workplace, for the next people that could sell. Well done. I'm trying. Well done. And I guess as you look at the future of work, what is a big question that you have or something that you're exploring? I would say, how can we consolidate and make things so simplistic that we don't need to market them as this was built for X? I think that's something that I actually respect Microsoft and what they're doing.

47:57They are very pioneering in the accessibility space in the aspect of, they're not keeping their roadmap to themselves. You can log online and look at any Microsoft roadmap because they realize the power of sharing that knowledge and that to me is like a very impressive thing right like a large tech giant having this opportunity to say hey if we're going to really forward this movement of accessibility and how people with disabilities interact with the world let alone the workplace it can't be a secret it can't be a trade secret and that to me is what I hope a lot of other companies really look at as hey we don't have to keep this to ourselves the more we share this knowledge and practice and things that we're doing and these standards that everyone benefits.

48:36There's billions of people in the world that have disabilities and it's the one minority group that you can become a part of at any part of your life. Those are the things that we can't shy away from and making sure that we're delivering a good experience for everyone.

48:48Amanda Schneider:And I really hope that's the way our world is going because nobody's pie gets smaller when you share that information. No, you don't. So that's really great. And I think it gives me hopes for the future of work and how it can get better for everyone. Same. Good. Any other closing advice or closing thoughts you want to give our listeners? I think that the biggest thing for me is feedback is a gift. If you can use that and really understand that the feedback is what people really feel and don't look at it as a negative and look at it as an opportunity to step up and say, hey, we know we're being vulnerable opening the doors for the feedback, but at the same time, it's not a bad thing.

49:21It's an opportunity to listen to the people and make sure that they understand that we're building spaces and experiences for them.

49:27Amanda Schneider:And I love that vulnerability showed through on the stage today. There was one gentleman on the last panel that was just very vulnerable about they are not at all where they want to be with their workplace. And they're starting literally from grounds of your to the point that he was like, maybe if we just wait another five to seven years, our product might come back in style. So I guess my hope for the future is that we're going to continue to have this open cooperation. So I love all the work that you guys are doing and help sharing the word. And I think that's how we really get this movement to keep continuing.

49:55Conferences like WorkTech make that happen.

49:56Amanda Schneider:Wonderful. And we'll be excited to see you at our event, July 31st in Chicago. And now I'm the only thing standing between you and your wife getting to happy hour. No worries. No worries at all. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. And we'll be excited to share this with you. Thank you. All right. Take care.

50:13Amanda Schneider:We hope you've enjoyed this special episode of Design Nerds Anonymous. We've got more live research events coming up at Think Lab. So if this sparked your interest, let's connect. Feel free to reach out to me, Amanda Schneider, on LinkedIn, or just follow this podcast so you don't miss what's next. Design Nerds Anonymous is a proud member of the Surround Podcast Network. Special thanks to the podcast production team, Rachel Senatore and Rob Schulte. Thanks for listening.