The New Rules to Recruit and Retain

0:01If they aren't able to learn and grow, they're going to have to move because the cost of living is crazy right now.

0:11Amanda Schneider:Welcome to Design Nerds Anonymous, the podcast that sparks curiosity at the intersection of business and design. I'm your host, Amanda Schneider, founder and president at ThinkLab, speaker on TED.com, and now author of Work for What's Next, published by Wiley. This season, we're unpacking the shifts, shaping how work is actually getting done. And today, we're stepping into perhaps one of the most crucial as we build on last week's episode about trust. That's recruitment and retention. Now, it's easy to say loyalty is disappearing. it's harder to ask whether we've designed roles, cultures, and career paths that are worth staying for.

0:56Amanda Schneider:My guests today bring two very different, but quite complementary lenses. Grace Snelling covers branding, design, and cultural shifts at Fast Company, bringing a front row and Gen Z perspective to how work and identity intersect. She sees how companies present themselves and how that story lands with her peers and emerging talent. Megan Detrato is a partner and co-founder of Toko Next. She spent more than two decades guiding AEC firms specifically. That's architecture, engineering, and construction through recruitment, succession, and next-gen leadership. She's sat in the rooms where talent decisions are made and where they quietly unravel.

1:41Amanda Schneider:What makes this conversation powerful is the tension between those perspectives. Lived experience paired with emerging expectations, filtered through the patterns that we're seeing in the built environment. Together, we explore whether less loyal is the right or wrong way to look at it, what transparency actually signals to candidates, and how leaders can design organizations people want to grow inside, not escape from. All right, let's get into it. Here's my conversation. with Grace Snelling and Megan Detrato. I would love for you to give me one word to describe the future of recruitment, retention, maybe even this loyalty concept if we kind of stay on the path that we're on today.

2:27Amanda Schneider:So Megan, do you want to go first? I'm Megan Detrato. I'm with Toko Next, and we are a consulting firm that focuses on people solutions in the design and building industries. So anything from organizational design, succession planning, talent acquisition, And we help firms grow smarter, not harder. I think the next question that you asked was like, describe recruitment and retention or the future in one word. A piece of cake. One word to describe all of that. Oh, so easy. I think it's intentionality. Oh, I love it. Because action for action's sake or change for change's sake doesn't create a purpose-filled direction.

3:05And so without that, I think you just end up perpetually confused about what you're doing or why you're doing it or where you're going.

3:14Amanda Schneider:Grace, you want to introduce yourself? I'm Grace Snelling. I'm an editorial assistant at Fast Company and I focus on writing in our design section. So a lot of stories about things like branding and product design, but I also sometimes write about how Gen Z is shaping the marketing world and how brands are speaking to Gen Z. And I'm a Gen Z-er myself, so I'm just kind of seeing those trends as they play out with the people around me. So excited to bring the Gen Z perspective to this conversation. I unfortunately went in a less positive direction. I chose cynicism. That's kind of the energy that I feel from my peers in terms of the job market and job hunt right now.

4:01And I think there are a lot of forces at play to make it that way.

4:04Amanda Schneider:Can you give us an example of cynicism? What leads you to that word. Yes, totally. I mean, I think you gave a great example in the book about how a lot of Gen Z job seekers are applying over and over again, even to a certain point. Some people I know, they've applied to maybe hundreds of jobs and not even heard even a word back, sort of just feel like they're speaking into the void. And I think that's one of the biggest issues I'm hearing about recruitment right now is just this feeling that you're doing all of this work and not even getting any kind of response back. So I think that creates a lot of cynicism from the Gen Z perspective of just feeling unheard in terms of that job search.

4:45Amanda Schneider:While I don't necessarily want to push us to go negative, I actually love that we started there because I think that it really is an honest look at what's happening today. And you guys haven't read the whole book cover to cover, but it really starts with this idea that there's a growing trust gap. And even the fact that you started with cynicism, Grace, and kind of this sentiment that is really reflected in some of the stories and the chapters about recruitment, I think is maybe a call to action or a caution. If we continue on the path that we're on, what we're headed for is this growing disconnect, this growing fragmentation.

5:19Amanda Schneider:And I think that we're at this beautiful moment that we could change that with some simple actions. And that's what I hope we discuss over the next 30 minutes here or so. So I'd love to dive into maybe one core idea from the two chapters. You guys read the chapter on recruitment and retention that aligns well with your work. And maybe there was something that was really exciting to you in these chapters. So Grace, maybe I'll start with you. One idea that really interested me is when you were discussing sort of the recruitment and how companies should kind of almost pitch themselves to Gen Z employees, you mentioned that companies should come at this almost on a more personal level of like, what do they offer to the Gen Z employee and try to avoid kind of corporate speak and like that bullet point energy and instead aim for showing sort of what the morals and values of the company look like.

6:13And I thought that was a great point that really resonates with my coverage just because I'm writing a lot about how Gen Z impacts branding and social media marketing and just what that looks like as a digitally native generation. And I think what we see is that Gen Z has just become really, really good at seeing through corporate speak and almost sick of the way that companies position themselves in that way. And so I think in order to stand out in the job market, companies need to be adopting a more frank and transparent tone in job listings. So I thought that was a great point. Another trend I've seen recently online in terms of what I was talking about with cynicism is I think a lot of people are really sick of, again, just hearing like nothing, getting ghosted by potential recruiters.

7:09And you mentioned using AI to follow up and just send a little note to any type of applicant to let them know like where their application is in the process, which I like that idea. But I also think Gen Z can be a little bit wary of AI and can tell when things are written by AI. And I saw a few posts go viral on LinkedIn recently about receiving a handwritten note from a recruiter, even if it's super brief, just saying XYZ is what I liked about what you brought to the table. So sorry, it's not going to work this time, but would love to connect again in the future. And I think that makes a huge difference just as a generation that's used to that constant communication to get even like a super short note directly from whoever you spoke to.

7:57So those are a couple of things that stood out. Megan, anything to add to that? Backing up to the comment about cynicism, I don't think that that's just a Gen Z thing. I talk to people in all generations and there is quite a bit of skepticism and cynicism in that older generation, even the boomers that are sunsetting out. I recently talked to somebody who is still leading a curated search, but was like, where does all this stuff go? Just like in the abyss, like I don't hear from anybody. So I'm hearing it across, you know, all generations of talent in the industry. And it is an issue.

8:33Amanda Schneider:If I could just jump in there. I think the difference is, you know, I'm a Gen Xer and I know what it was like before. And this doesn't feel normal. I think to these Gen Zers, it's like, this is all they've never ever known. And it's like, what the hell like this is the way it's going to be this dichotomy right where you have the the older generation who's like really missing that human connection and is highly skeptical of ai and is never sure and you have the younger generations who are like there's got to be more than this and is also skeptic skeptical of ai and plus you just across the board like nobody wants to get a boilerplate generated response that has still has like the parentheses with name and bolden caps.

9:17Like I see that all the time. I'm like, come on guys, we could do better than this. But I also think, you know, bouncing forward to what you were saying, Grace, about the intersectionality between marketing and some of those approaches to how you communicate the opportunity. As a consultant who's been leading search and really curated search for a long time, the thing that I always educate leaders on is, you know, your talent acquisition team is a PR extension of your organization. They're telling, they should be telling your story. They should be putting that recruitment marketing out there as an extension of your organizational marketing tools and collateral, because that's the engagement ring.

9:58That's the way that you create this platform of a destination firm where people want to work there. It's how you educate people on what they'll be doing on a day-to-day basis, how they spend their time, right? Everybody knows is that nothing really has changed in terms of generation to generation and how much the design and building industries folks spend at their desk in their work. We're a really hardworking, hours-driven professional services platform, right? So the work that you're doing, who you spend it with, and all that stuff really matters. So communicating that is really important in your marketing materials.

10:35If you can say what your differentiators are in your job description about not only the work that they're doing, the job that they're leading, but also about the firm that they're working for, that makes a huge difference. We do a ton of educating on that. And it's surprising how disconnected the talent acquisition or HR teams are from the marketing team. So we do a lot of stitching and zippering together. And I think more firms just need to know how to not put boilerplate stuff out.

11:04Amanda Schneider:Well, and that's so interesting because in chapter two, we get into this a little bit about building trust. And we do an exercise. ThinkLab has run some exercises with actually office furniture dealers. And we ask them, all of their client facing people could be someone who is selling, could be someone who's in customer service for a call in line. What are the three words that describe what makes your company truly unique? And then we put these into word clouds. So the more frequently that word is mentioned, the larger it is in the word cloud. And we put those word clouds on a wall. And when we have 12 of these dealers in a room, we ask them to pick their own word cloud out.

11:42Amanda Schneider:And guess what? Most of the time, they can't do it. And I think that that is a really tough realization for a lot of these companies to come to because it's a big aha that one, they're not aligned. People are seeing different things. And I think that that's especially notable to Gen Z, who has this high bullshit-o-meter, right? They're really kind of reading through the lines like Grace said. Yeah. I mean, I think just to that point, I was looking back at actually Fast Company's coverage about sort of what leaders are doing to retain Gen Z and just reading some anecdotes that founders and CEOs had shared.

12:19And I think one thing one leader pointed out that really rang true for me is that Gen Z very much grew up watching corporations make big promises about things like diversity, accounting for neurodiversity in the workplace, mental health, et cetera, and then watched companies just totally back off of those promises. And I mean, we've seen that become a huge trend this year. If you just think about Target, for example, which completely walked back its DEI commitments. And Gen Z, as you point out in the book, Amanda, is very value-oriented in terms of how we tend to choose what workplace we want to work for.

13:00And so, yeah, I think not knowing what your company stands for and especially making a promise about something as important as a DEI initiative and then walking back away from that is really a red flag to any Gen Z applicant for sure. Yeah, I think about that's a great point. And, you know, one of the things Amanda is saying in the retention chapter around loyalty is not dead and people stay where they grow and there is people also stay where they feel seen and valued and where they find connection. Right. We try to get ahead of when I'm tethering this back to like, don't use the boilerplate job description in your recruitment marketing is the if I had known statement is a really important one to watch out for, right?

13:50Sometimes you might catch the fish with your hook in the water that way. But if you do, and you get lucky enough to, it's going to be really hard to retain that person because they're going to get into your organization and they're going to start realizing like those holy shit Sherlock moments. Like if I had known that this was what I was really going to be doing, I might not have accepted this job. Or if I had known that this is the reality around how you guys operate or what this company's values are. And I think that's where I see a lot of turnover, right? So when we sit with hiring managers or organizations, most hiring managers don't want to be crappy hiring managers.

14:26They're really good professionals. They're high performers that do their jobs really well. And when they do their jobs really well, they have the opportunity to grow and scale their teams and their businesses. But they don't know how to do that, right? And there's not a whole lot of organizations or programs in any scale of firm that are doing that effectively. And so we come back to the if I had known, right? How do you get ahead of that? And a lot of it just really comes back simply to what would you have wanted to know as a person stepping into this company or the seat that you're in? And how do you speak with transparency in a way that's engaging but informative, right?

15:04Where it gives people the opportunity to say, man, I don't know if this is the right job for me. Because then that hiring manager can say, okay, cool. Well, you're still super talented. So maybe you belong over here. I think that's a huge missing. It's like in the periphery. It's like an adjacent thing that is the space of opportunity that people just don't have, they don't access enough or as frequently as they should. And I'm trying really hard to bring visibility there, but I think it's a big, again, it's a big piece to all of that. And it's so interconnected.

15:39Amanda Schneider:Mm-hmm. Can I add, this is totally an aside, but I'm actually so curious when you guys both mentioned, Amanda, you said a bit ago that you're seeing cynicism across generations and that it did not used to look like this speaking into the abyss vibe. And I just graduated like a little over a year ago, so I actually have not known any other type of job market. What did it look like before for you guys? What are the big differences that you're seeing? That's a great question. I I mean, I've been doing this in some form or fashion for like 20 plus years. So when I first started out, even as a young person in talent acquisition, there was no digital world in which people could, on a massive scale, produce applications, right?

16:25So a lot of it really was like I would get people walking into my organization and asking to fill out a paper application, or I would be handed a stack of paper applications and have to sift through them, literally make phone calls and say, hey, Grace, I'm from so-and-so, I got your application and do that type of exchange and make a decision, right? Now, you know, fast forward going to some of the intentional exploration on the corporate side that I did, because this was something that I was really curious about, you know, some of the firms that I've worked for, it is really difficult because they're, you know, especially for some of the younger, more entry-level positions, there are thousands of applications.

17:09And oftentimes, there's only a handful of people that are leading in a recruitment seat for that entire region supporting 20, 40, 50 hiring managers. It literally becomes an abyss. So much so that, particularly for federal contractors, there's compliance protocols that you have to follow in terms of how you review applications, hundreds of which never even get looked at. It is a true thing that you have to differentiate yourself and it can feel really defeating because it is, right? So, you know, I'll leave it there, but I think it really went from a very interactive personal experience to a really impersonal one very quickly.

17:56And I think everybody is feeling that. There's a lot of desire to change it. But in a digital world, how do you do that effectively? Right. Yeah. Because I think that concept of just walking into a company and sitting down and talking to someone, that's almost become a meme in the modern era. It's like that's what your mom suggests when you ask her. I saw Grace giggle when you said that. I think that's a common meme format of like, oh, my mom told me that I should just try calling the CEO and chatting with them. But that is real. Like, you know, it feels almost impossible to have a conversation with someone who actually works at the company that you're applying for.

18:33So it's really funny because I have, you know, I I'm a mom and I have a college age kid and a high school kid. And I'm, you know, he's going through his little job search right now. And this is my wheelhouse. So I'm guiding. He's applying at our grocery store down the street. And we went into the customer service desk to talk to the store manager. and that person was like, oh, well, you have to put an application in. And then we put an application in and it goes, like, it does go into the abyss. So I'm like, Max, you have to go back and you have to go talk to these people because you have to have an in.

19:06And if you have an application in, you have to find an advocate, somebody who's going to say, hey, I talked to this really bright kid and can somebody search his application up so that we can advance the process. And I do think that we're in an era now where, to your point, Grace, you know, as laughable as it may be, one of the more unforgettable stories that I have in my little memory is when I worked at AECOM, I had gotten a note directly from one of our RBLLs, which is one of the big regional executives about an intern level individual who went to Howard University, was a really bright electrical engineer.

19:49And the reason why this executive was forwarding his information to me is because this young man worked really hard to network his way towards this executive leader, had no through lines and did through every channel, found his way to this executive's inbox. And this executive was so impressed. He said, we need to find a place for this person in our organization. And we did. And I know that it can feel like moving a mountain, but personal communication is reciprocal. That cynicism is on both sides of the table, right? So, you know, whether it's the younger generation or the applicant saying, you know, how do I know this place is for me?

20:30Alternatively, there are a lot of leaders on the other side of the table saying, are you the right person for my team or my organization? And that is impossible to determine or discern from an online application or resume. It comes down to interpersonal experience, exchange, and interaction. And when you show ambition or interest, that makes a difference. You know, it may be discouraging, but if I have like a call to action or a word of advice to anybody, keep going, right? Wherever you're meant to land, like if you're putting the effort in to work your way in your interest, your interest will be heard at some point if you put the work in to find your voice there, right?

21:14It is tough, but it's not impossible. And it does make a big difference. So call that CEO. Might get his assistant. You might get a nowhere, but call the CEO. Google it. Google his phone number. It's probably out there somewhere. I love that.

21:32Amanda Schneider:I'm so proud to introduce Mannington Commercial and Cindy Coffin as a season 10 sponsor of Design Nerds Anonymous. Mannington and Cindy herself have been alongside me, not only in the research, but also in writing of this book. Mannington Commercial has been a longtime sponsor of DNA and one of the reasons I'm so proud of that is because DNA is the voice of our industry. I'm so thrilled that you've been a partner for so long on DNA. What are the changes that you think people are struggling to solve? It's a tough time to be a designer because you're dealing with a lot of information but the responsibility lies on the shoulders of our industry for a great deal of what our future as a civilization looks like.

22:13Amanda Schneider:What is Mannington Commercial doing to really address some of these challenges? We are committed to being fully transparent with everything that we do and the way that we do it. So that transparency really supports designers having access to all of the information that they need to make the right decisions clearly and plainly and transparently as possible. If you could invite our podcast listeners, what would you say to them? I think human beings are the differentiator. So I invite you to connect with a Mannington commercial rep to learn more, not just about our new products, but how we think and how we show up for you as your design partner.

22:58Amanda Schneider:We're looking at generations and the different perceptions as clues. But as we're hearing in this conversation, it kind of affects everyone. And I think the difference is the context that, you know, maybe Megan and I, because of our experience, understand how this could look different. But Grace, I love your, the way that you kind of asked this, right? Because, you know, we know from the stats, like there's double the number of clients and half the FaceTime for sales reps today. There's double the number of applicants, but less than half of the FaceTime to really get that, you know, even at the jewel trying to apply for a job, you've got AI weeding out a high schooler's application.

23:33Amanda Schneider:Like what the heck is a high schooler supposed to put on their app to get in there? Exactly. What exactly are you looking for? Right. So I think it's really about, you know, some things that haven't changed are that human to human element and working that personalization. And I think people are looking for that grittiness to say, no, no, no, you're the one for me. It's almost like the dating realm. Like, are you going to give up too quick? Are you really coming after me because I'm the one that you want? I will say there's a lot that's discouraging about the current job hunt state of affairs, but I think one good thing that has emerged is the LinkedIn people I know feature.

24:09I've seen that really work for people in terms of just reaching out directly to somebody else from your college or something that works at that company and then just scheduling a conversation with them first before you ever even submit your application or move forward with a company. I've seen that strategy work for quite a few people in my circle.

24:29Amanda Schneider:You know, we have a ton of tangible ideas for companies to try. Grace, I love that you went to kind of the individuals. What are some ideas that you'd add to the list, given the cynicism we're seeing across the board, Megan? Forget perfection, right? I think a lot of people, especially the younger generations, it can be really intimidating to reach out to senior leaders or, Grace, I love the example of like the who do you know? So I last year led a senior studio session at Columbia in Chicago, just all around this whole subject about like, what are the sweaty armpit moments in your job search as a new grad?