The Oprah Encore: What Jean Twenge Says We’re Getting Wrong About Gen Z

0:00Gen Z is like, look, we don't even know if we want to play this game anymore, that we really need change. And I think that's a message of yours I completely agree with. Welcome to Design Nerds Anonymous, the podcast that sparks curiosity at the intersection of business and creativity. I'm your host, Amanda Schneider, founder of ThinkLab, speaker on TED.com, and bestselling author of the new book, Work for What's Next. If you're new on this feed, you're likely joining us after hearing Oprah's recent podcast. Our guest today, Jean Twenge, was the featured guest on that episode, and for good reason.

0:40She's one of the world's most influential generational researchers. Her latest research and book, called Generations, draws from more than 42 million data points, making it one of the most comprehensive studies of generational differences ever conducted. Now, I had the opportunity to join that conversation with Jean and Oprah as an audience expert, bringing insights from Work for What's Next. And when that recording ended, I realized that there was an entire workplace conversation that we hadn't had time to explore. Because today's conversation really isn't about Gen Z alone. It's about understanding why work feels different today and what that means for all of us.

1:22But before we dive into my interview with Jean, I wanted to let everyone in on something special coming to the DNA feed. Beginning in August, we're taking Design Nerds Anonymous live and on the road as part of the Work for What's Next book tour, bringing together researchers, executives, educators, and industry leaders to unpack some of the biggest workplace and cultural shifts shaping organizations today. We'll kick things off with a special milestone in August, the 100th episode of Design Nerds Anonymous, recorded live at our industry's largest trade show. Together, we'll unpack what happened when we created our own Gen Z shadow board, and what organizations in any industry can learn from inviting younger voices into the conversation.

2:10All right, now today, Jean and I pick up where Oprah left off and go deeper into the questions leaders everywhere are trying to navigate right now. What's actually different about Gen Z? what the data tells us about loyalty, resilience, communication, and workplace expectations, and perhaps most importantly, what leaders can do about it. Here's my conversation with Jean. I have been deep into your book. It is obviously one of the most comprehensive studies out there, and I know I sent you a copy of my book as well, so we'll dive into both of those things today. But I guess for our listeners, could you start by briefly introducing yourself and your area of expertise.

2:51My name is Jean Twenge. I am a professor of psychology at San Diego State University, and I've been researching generational differences for my whole career, so since the 1990s. And I think we're mostly going to talk about my book Generations today, about all six living American generations and how technology impacts all of us. You know, knowing that you've been studying all of these generations and this is not new to you, some of these generational arguments are not new, but what do you hear as maybe what is new around Gen Z and their challenges with work? Yeah, there's so many, but Gen Z can be challenging, especially because they're so different from millennials.

3:30If you look at some of the generational trends, even though there were definitely differences, Gen X kind of built on what boomers did. Millennials kind of built on what Gen X did, but then Gen Z turned a lot of those trends completely in another direction. And I think that's been kind of disorienting for a lot of people, understandably so. They just need a different approach than millennials because their psychological profile is just so different. One of the things, the way that we, I guess, coded it in our book was what we call the boomerang effect because you can see it in a lot of our data where things really change with the millennials.

4:06I guess as you dive into some of those biggest differences, what are a few of the biggest differences, especially in how they approach work as we look at Gen Z? One thing is that Gen Z is more likely to say that they want to have a job where they can help other people. So that had actually been kind of sliding across the generations, and then that picked back up. And just for context, the data that I draw from, all data has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is everybody's the same age. They're all high school seniors and then considering what they want out of a job. So that means age is not in that equation.

4:43So it's not just the young people want to help people more. We know that Gen Z compared to other generations at the same age want to help people more than, say, millennials or Gen X or so at that age. So that's one thing that pops up. Another thing that is really prominent that's been going on for a while in terms of the generational differences is work-life balance. What you call this and how you see it depends on your perspective. For a lot of people, it is work-life balance. It's making sure work doesn't take over your life, making sure you have enough time for sleep, or as Gen Z would often put it, mental wellness.

5:18Basically not killing yourself for work. Some managers would see that as lack of work ethic. So it really just does depend on how you are looking at the problem. This is probably the number one thing that I get questions about as I'm out and about. And I feel like it's even a lot of what we covered with Oprah, right? is this concern around the rise in burnout, anxiety, overwhelm with young workers. Many are wondering if we're raising a generation with less resilience. We hear they just don't have the grit that previous generations did. Some even say they have a discomfort with adversity or anything that they have to kind of grit through.

5:55What does your data tell us is actually happening here? Well, one thing that's important, I think, for this conversation is to start with the trends in mental health, because that's been one of the biggest drivers between the differences between particularly millennials and Gen Z at the same age. So this is how I discovered Gen Z was already here, was these big data sets that I work with of young people and seeing that as you get that transition in birth years of those born, say, early 90s who are millennials versus late 90s Gen Z, that's when you start to see the increases loneliness anxiety depression unhappiness you name it in terms of mental health it got worse in that transition from millennials to gen z for you know adolescents and for young adults so it's not just the kids it's also entry-level employees up to about the age of 26 or so we're seeing those increases in even major depression So I think that really underlies a lot of these differences.

7:02So, and I've noticed this with my undergraduates because I teach college students. It's at the core of why Gen Z needs a softer touch than millennials did. It is true that they don't have that underlying resilience that millennials had. They don't have the optimism that millennials had. They're much more pessimistic. So, you know, both things are true. that they did grow up in a different environment and then, you know, have these challenges like anxiety and depression. But that doesn't mean that you can say, well, you know, we need to change them and we need to like pile on a bunch of stuff because that's what's going to teach them.

7:45Then they'll just quit. So if you're a parent and you have a 12 year old and you want to build they're resilient, that's a better plan. But if you have a 22-year-old or a 25-year-old and you're going to bring them into your organization and then think that you can build up that grit right away, well, that's going to be a tough road. What caused that and what do we do about it? Yeah. The what caused it, I think I figured out. The what do we do about it is a little harder. The what caused it at this point is pretty clear. Stuff turned in the early 2010s, for particularly for adolescents and a year or two later for young adults.

8:21So around 2012, 2012 happens to be the first year the majority of Americans owned a smartphone. It's also when Facebook bought Instagram, when algorithms started to become more common on social media, when social media just went from kind of optional to almost mandatory, especially for young people. There's also some turnarounds in the data. People also start sleeping less around that time, particularly young people. and they also started spending less time with their friends in person. So you put that together, less sleep, less time with friends in person, more time on a screen. It's a terrible formula for mental health.

8:54Completely changed the way that they were spending their lives outside of school and in a way that was worse for mental health. In the workplace, you have to, you know, that first step is understanding, realizing that you don't want to overgeneralize. Not necessarily true that any one individual is going to fit this profile, but there's been a big average shift. So your average Gen Z are much more likely to be depressed and anxious than your average millennial was at the same age 15 years ago. This is how they're coming in. So I think a lot of it has to do with valuing mental health and wellness and stress reduction.

9:32Anything that you can do in those categories Gen Z really responds to and taking those things seriously. And it can be really practical stuff like does your health care plan also cover mental health services at the same rate it does for services for physical health? If it doesn't, why not? Gen Zers are going to ask you that. And then also just any other types of things where you can consider the role of mental health. And that's going to come up across the board in a lot of different ways. Does your data tell us anything about the effect of the pandemic? So I think the pandemic was an add-on. Look at those trends in mental health, including resilience.

10:18I mean, they were well on their way before COVID was ever on the scene. And a lot of those indicators have actually recovered. So if you look at depression, it's the latest data that we've got, it's back to 2019 levels. It's not back to 2011 levels because the change that happened between 2011 and 2019 was much larger than the change between, say, 2019 and 2021 at the height of the pandemic. So at least in that mental health data, what we're seeing is that the pandemic had an impact, but it's now faded. But the impact of spending a lot more time on social media and a lot less time interacting with people in person is still there.

11:01So I think that also informs those ideas around return to work, that there is still that desire for more convenience, having, as I know you mentioned in your book, the flexibility not just of where to work, but when to work. Those are still things that are very, very important, especially to Gen Z, but also to other generations too. that's there but there's also now that we're out of the pandemic for many years now the recognition of hey you know interacting with people face to face there's some really good things about it that we maybe want to go to that hybrid model of being in the office a few days a week so we can meet face to face so we can talk so we can build those bonds with each other and actually connect and then have more flexibility for when and where you work on the other days.

11:53Which I think goes back to that mental health piece, definitely has a piece there. And one of the other things that I talk about in the book is this Gallup study that shows the fall off and engagement of all generations was really sharp in 2020. And we've actually seen a similar fall off in 2024 and the first subsequent fall off in 2025. So the first time we've had two years in a row, employee engagement. So this is the Gallup survey. It's measuring all generations. So this is not a Gen Z thing. Actually, the biggest fall off was in the mid-level managers that are trying to translate policy from the top down and trying to be translators of all the worker bees under them to the people making policy above.

12:35But this tells me that this is not just a generational issue. It's kind of a workplace issue. And obviously, that's what I present in my book is we can look to Gen Z as these first digital natives. Do they have everything figured out? Absolutely not. Do they have all the answers? No, no, no, no. We still need to filter that through the wisdom of older generations. But could there be clues in Gen Z about a better world for all of us? So I'm curious if any of that from the book kind of struck you or what you see in your data that either mirrors or challenges that. The way I would parse it, just given what I do, is that there's time period effects and there's generational effects, and they work together.

13:10So a time period effect, by definition, affects everyone of all generations equally. It's never going to be completely equal, which is why we also have these generational differences. But I think it does often show up with Gen Z first because they're vocal. And just given their age and their generation, they look at the way things are done in the workplace and go, why do we have to do it that way? And so that's what's really wonderful about having this perspective on generational differences and realizing that not all of the differences are bad. And a lot of them can really teach us something is that that new perspective that Gen Z brings, often the ideas that they have are helpful to everybody.

13:52So I totally agree with that. Which is interesting because I will say that's the biggest pushback that I've gotten so far is this is great advice for all of us leaders, but who's teaching Gen Z what they need to know? And so how do you respond to critique like that about what we need to learn from Gen Z versus what Gen Z needs to learn from all of us old folk? Yeah, I think it has to be both. And you're right, you know, too often, it's a focus on only one of those directions. So I see this a lot with just generational differences. Overall, the older generations are fascinated by younger ones and really want to understand them.

14:25And then a lot of times younger generations like we don't need to understand you you're old, you're going to be gone. Like it's this really terrible attitude sometimes. So it really can go both ways. Because you can also get the really negative attitude on the part of older generations or managers of, oh, I'm just giving up. I'm giving up on these young people. They don't know anything, have no work ethics. I just can't do it. They're just too challenging. But we're best off if we're talking to each other, that communication goes both ways, because I really do think both things are absolutely true.

14:57Gen Z has something to contribute. A lot of times their ideas are things that will help everyone, but we can't meet them where they are and then give up on profit and things moving smoothly and the work getting done. It has to be something that's balanced. It has to be something that maybe we can give Gen Z what they want, but we also have to, yes, teach them a few things about how things are going to work and professionalism and all that stuff that sometimes, you know, the rumor is can be a little bit lacking, but we can each learn from each other. And I think it always works best that way. I agree.

15:35I agree. And what's so interesting about what you said is I do hear that a lot too. The older generations want to understand the younger, but they don't necessarily want to change. So it's almost like marriage counseling, right? And then sometimes the younger ones, they don't even want to understand the older ones. So I agree. Really using data as a foundation to kind of get these generations talking is what's hugely important. And as we look at, I guess, one of the biggest business challenges all generations can understand and relate to is going to be this idea of loyalty. I think Gen Z often appears less loyal to employers than previous generations.

16:09They have shorter tenure, they might switch jobs faster, and generally have some different expectations around work. In your research, what is actually driving that shift? And what do you think most leaders misunderstand about it? Well, I think the thing that a lot of leaders misunderstand is that it goes both ways. That it may be seen that Gen Z has less loyalty to the company, but companies have less loyalty to their employees now. That standard of staying at the same company isn't dead just because employees now want to change jobs. It's dead because companies reconfigure their workplaces and lay off people.

16:45Millennials have the same reputation, by the way. So when I gave my Generations in the Workplace talk 15 years ago, I would hear that about millennials as well. It's not necessarily what they want, though. Like that high school senior survey, they're still likely to say they would like to stay in the same job for their whole career. It's just it's not the way the workplace is set up anymore. And to be fair, a lot of times they come in with expectations that are unrealistic and they are often not prepared. It can be tough for Gen Z because they often come in without, as you were talking about, spending as much time with people in person.

17:22So those social skills can be a challenge. Some of the workplace norms, the unwritten norms, can be a problem. They need things spelled out for them a lot more than previous generations did. I think that's another tip. You know, you might have some expectations, and you may need to explicitly tell them about what those expectations are. Well, and I think that they're changing for all of us, right? We've had hundreds of years to create our norms for a physical work environment, but this digital world is new for all of us in terms of how we communicate, in terms of how the digital and physical worlds come together.

17:56And so, you know, I think that that is a cultural shift that all of us have to work on and a reason that, again, we've got to get these generations talking, I would say. Absolutely. So let's talk about some of those communication skills. As I talk about digital and physical, you know, one of the things I challenge in my book is this idea of digital natives versus analog natives. It's a concept that I credit to a woman named Hannah Grady Williams, who originally talked about that in her book. But we often say that younger workers are entering the workplace without these communication skills, maybe lack professionalism, or just don't understand that workplace etiquette that other generations maybe were set up to pick up a little bit more naturally.

18:36I think that the pandemic and the onset of these digital communication norms that are natural for these digital natives, less natural for all of us analog natives, combined with all of this massive change that we're seeing right now was a big part of creating that gap. What else do you see that has kind of fed this? And again, like, I know you don't have all the answers of what to do about it, but like, what does the data tell us that are clues about what to do about it? I think this is one of the biggest challenges. and it just it has not you know been discussed enough social skills take thousands of hours to develop and a lot of gen z just didn't get those hours just because of the way that they grew up with overprotected parents and not getting their driver's license so they were older and not going out with their friends as much when they were at school if phones were allowed which in most schools that was true up until about two years ago they were looking at their phone during lunch not talking to friends and classmates.

19:35So there's definitely some disconnect here. And I think companies are going to have to do more training around that. What is the responsibility of schools? What is the responsibility of companies? Because I think some of these communication skills come from, it feels like maybe our education system is not preparing students in the same way for the workplace. And I'll use, I have two Gen Z and a Gen Alpha son. And I'll say one example is, we've been on college tours. One of the tour guides was like, and hey, your paper's due on Tuesday. You need an extension. You just tell them, hey, can I get an extension?

20:09And all the professors, they let you do it. And I'm thinking, oh my God, if this is the way our kids are growing up, which it is in high school, on to college, where a deadline is just a soft deadline and we can change it. Now when those same kids get to the workplace, I can understand why these employers are having these struggles. So what do you see as the role of education? What do you see as the role of kind of the workplace when they get there and maybe even parenting? Like, how are we getting here? I teach upper division undergraduates. They're in my classroom and in three months or six months or nine months, they're going to be in their first, you know, quote, real job after college a lot of times.

20:45So what standards can I keep that might, you know, help them in the workplace? And they don't like it, but they don't get extensions in my class. And everybody takes the exam at the same time. If you actually have to miss it, we drop that exam. That's just, that's how we do I mean I have 350 students so that's part of the reason too but sometimes when I think I'm being mean and I wonder if I should be more empathic and flexible and so on that's always what I think about is what is their boss going to say when they're like oh I I can't take I can't do the big presentation then it's not that's not a good time for me I'm just I'm not I'm not up to it like that's not going to go over well I mean this is more in the millennial era but I had a student saying, I can't take the final at that time because I'm going to Vegas for my birthday.

21:32What is your boss going to say in six months when you say that about the big presentation or the conference or whatever you have to go to? I'm like, no, no, not going to be a good scene. So I actually do, I think both through K through 12 and for college, we need to start holding the deadlines more. And I know why people let it go because they don't want to be mean and because it is tough to wade through all the excuses and so on, but we're setting a bad precedent and we're getting a bunch of people used to this idea that deadlines mean nothing. When in the real world, they mean something. And then the social skills piece, I think, is the other big part of it.

22:08It's one of the many reasons why I think the idea of no phones during the school day bell to bell, not just a classroom ban, makes a lot of sense. It's that social skills piece. there's been a lot of attention in the last couple of months like well is it is it going to improve test scores is it not oh maybe it is some researchers found it does some find it at least doesn't hurt but nobody's measured the social skills piece yet that what a big benefit it is to have say high school students talking to each other at lunch instead of being on their phones are there studies starting on that because i think that's that's really interesting even as we look at the people trying to design these spaces for that human interaction.

22:49Yeah. I don't know if anybody is looking into that, but I think it is definitely another reason to say, hey, you know, students don't really need their phones. There's not any compelling reason why they have to have their phones during the school day, say in high school. So let's get rid of that. And one of the many benefits is maybe it'll help with their social skills. I feel like I hear often that Gen Z is very difficult to manage and it kind of builds on all the things that we've talked about from social skills, communication skills, you know, lack of loyalty and more willingness to leave. I hear that they need more reassurance.

23:19They definitely need more coaching because, you know, maybe they just haven't been prepared in the same way than previous generations. What does your research suggest leaders should understand about how these younger workers maybe respond to management differently? So one place that I would start is with the understanding the generational differences piece that when they were in high school and sometimes in college, Gen Z compared to previous generations are less likely to have had a paid job, less likely to go out with their friends, less likely to go out on dates, less likely to have a driver's license.

23:57All of these adult things, they're just not doing as much or they're doing them later. They're getting to adulthood without as much experience with independence. They don't have as much experience with making decisions on their own. College campuses, everywhere I go, the staff say, I have more and more students who can't make even simple decisions without texting their parents. So this is where this is the environment that they have been raised in. And I don't think it's useful to debate like whose fault that is or who should we blame or, well, it's just the way it is. And there's upsides to it, too.

24:31They're also less likely to drink alcohol and have sex as high school and middle school students. Most people would say that's good, but having a paid job or the driver's like, I mean, it's not all bad or all good. It's just that they are taking longer to grow up. There's big advantages to that, but then there's also the downsides, especially once they get to the workplace, that they do need more guidance. They do need step-by-step instructions. They do need more reassurance because they just haven't done as many things on their own in the real world. Maybe they've opened a social media account on their own without their parents knowing and spent a lot of time on it.

25:06But a lot of those real world things, they just haven't done as much on their own. And I think that that shows up in them, as you said, needing more reassurance, more guidance, more management. It's so funny to think about because as we go back to, again, that Gallup study looking across all generations, the group with the highest level of disengagements that seems to be struggling the most is those mid-level managers that are often the ones struggling with burnout of just midlife and childcare responsibilities and some of these issues as well that don't have necessarily the time and the patience to coach some of these Gen Zers through.

25:45I know that you mentioned training earlier, but is it about training? Is it about creating new experiences? What do we do from here to bridge this gap? Because there's not endless energy and it feels like the world is just moving faster and faster and everyone's getting burnout. Yeah. Well, I hate to say it, but at least for high school and college students using AI, it's just going to make this worse, not better. I mean, maybe they'll develop skills in using AI, but then they're going to miss out on thinking skills, critical thinking, learning how to write, learning how to think, all these things that can't really be replaced by AI.