We Tested a Gen Z Advisory Model. Here's What We Learned.

0:00The older generations look to the younger generation like, hey, you grew up with phones. You should know how to do this. It's like, right, but we didn't work with you guys before, so we don't know what you're trying to do.

0:13Welcome back to Design Nerds Anonymous. Before we jump in to today's conversation, I have to take just a minute to acknowledge something pretty big. This is our 100th episode. When we started this podcast, the goal was simple. Ask better questions about how people work, learn, lead, and create. Now, 100 episodes later, those questions have only gotten bigger. And while many of our conversations begin in the world of design, they've never been only about design. They're about how work is changing, how people are changing, and what all of us, regardless of industry can learn from the organizations willing to rethink what's next.

0:58Now today's conversation is a perfect example. It was recorded live at NiaCon, the interior design industry's largest trade show, where we're exploring a question that extends far beyond the design world. What happens when you intentionally give the next generation a seat at the table, Not just to observe the future, but to help shape it. For the past few years, ThinkLab has been experimenting with a Gen Z advisory cohort. It was inspired by Gucci's famous shadow board. You can hear more about that in my TED Talk. In this live conversation, we share what we're learning and what it could mean for how your organization works next.

1:42So let's jump in.

1:48Today, we have a really spicy panel here, a really lively discussion about what we've learned from doing this Gen Z advisory panel that, if you've watched my TED Talk, was modeled after the Gucci advisory board. So if you haven't done that, go check out the TED Talk. It'll explain everything here. But I think we're going to learn a lot from this fabulous panel today. So without further ado, I'm going to invite our panelists. Candid, I'm going to come to you first. I'm going to invite you to introduce yourself, your name, your company, your role on this panel, and one word to describe. What organizations are underestimating about the future of work?

2:20Thank you, Amanda. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Kandon Murphy, she, they. I work for HOK. And my role on this panel is as kind of a mentor leadership adjacent. So I sit really closely with leadership. And I also spend a lot of time with hundreds of designers across our firm at many different levels, frequently lots of them juniors. My official title is design resource manager because I work with materials and products. And my one word to describe what's happening with work right now is isolation. Oh, we're going to come back and unpack that. Perfect. All right, Joseph, you're up next.

3:04Hi, everybody. My name is Joseph Oliveri. I'm a designer and project coordinator at Corrigan. And I'm also an educator at the New York Institute of Technology based out of New York City. My role as part of everything here, I'm a Gen Z cohort member for ThinkLab for 2026. And I'm as well our lived experience Gen Z member of the panel. And if there's one thing that I can kind of think to consolidate a term for everything, it's confusing. confusing. I still need it and confusing, so we're starting off well. All right. Hi, it's so nice to see all of you. My name is Caroline Murphy. I work at Sandow Design Group, and I am our future gen engagement lead, which I always get a couple questions on what that is.

3:55And really, the biggest part of my job is to connect with Gen Z and other generations that the future generations of our leaders in the industry. And my role today is as really the aggregator, but think of me kind of as a translator. With my role through Sandow, I meet a lot of people all over the country from firm leaders to college students. So I see a lot and I hear a lot. And what I hear more than anything, building off of them a little bit, is just difficulty. And I hate that word, but I love that word at the same time. And I'm excited to dig in. Amazing. Okay. So we heard isolated, confusing, and difficult.

4:38Like who isn't excited to be in this room now? So let's unpack that a little bit. Why is it feeling so isolated, confused, and difficult? Who wants to take this one? I feel like there is a lot of disconnect as we have come back from working remotely and this kind of culture that was immediately thrown at us, especially in design, we got to go home and work from home. Most of us did. We got to be in that during these lockdown times. And that culture, I think we've seen infiltrate into as we've come back in person. And I watch people having meetings on videos while sitting three bays away from each other.

5:23And yes, they're talking to other people, but they're still sitting on video. And it feels like there's so much more time spent with the internet and maybe an internet assistant rather than your own self. But I've also noticed it in my personal life and even what I've heard from friends of mine and also in some of the data I've seen that people are really struggling to find human connection in their personal life at work kind of everywhere. I will say that this world almost feels dystopian, if that makes sense, of hearing you talk about people on meetings next to each other. When I worked in a firm, I would work with people three feet from me and we would be on a meeting together.

6:07And then you would walk over to their desk and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry, I have a virtual meeting. I can't speak to you right now. And it's very confusing for a young person to come into this. And I have found your word isolating to feel so true of what's happening in the world. But at the nut of it, we all want connection. And so I think that's what we're all really trying to attack and accomplish is how do we bring that connection back into the workplace? I don't have the answer right now, but maybe Joseph does. In the next 30 minutes. We got it. We got it. Or maybe Joseph right now. Go ahead.

6:39We'll solve it for you right now. It's so interesting, too, because we're at a point post pandemic where, you know, we're having a generation enter the workforce that doesn't know what the workforce previously was. so so much of that is culture sharing so much of that is training and habitual and getting people to develop their own strategies and getting people to develop their own habits that previously don't know what it was like to have a regular schedule for things not to expedite every task or not to be requested to do everything faster and faster and faster so there's also a that confusing element where it's like, well, what is normal?

7:22Because this is now our sense of normal. They don't know what it was like before, but maybe there's some, you know, there's some handholding or secret keeping from the other side of the fence too. I think that context is so important. And I think we see it generationally. You all, I don't know if you realize that you, when you walked into this live podcast, you walked past a would you rather wall. Did anybody take a look there? Okay, for follow-up listeners, we're gonna have to post some pictures of this so you can see it. But we have three different games of would you rather. And the answer is people vote by dots of two really awful or two really wonderful choices that kind of makes them think.

7:57And I think the interesting thing there is the different context that these different generations are coming from. But I would also argue in addition to generations that, you know, especially as you said, Joseph, Gen Z is not aware of the context they're coming in from now, especially in the design industry, but I'm sure other industries as well. People are working across offices. We had a meeting this morning with a young Gen Zer who is out of a Salt Lake City office who works at the team that is all in other offices. So she's actually in the office, but working remotely. And the context that each of those individuals brings, whether they're working from home, whether they're working from different offices, I know a lot of project teams are now working across offices, is very different.

8:36So this is a piece of what the book proposes, is we kind of have to look at a world that is still very much relying on analog norms in a digital paced world, right? Those analog norms aren't moving as fast as this digital world around us. So it's trying to call out some of these generational or contextual differences to really say, how do we come together and figure out what we want, what's next to look like? So I want to go into something called the Gucci shadow board. If anybody's watched the TED talk, you've heard about this. Gucci put in place what they called a next-gen shadow board. They recognized that their sales were declining as their core demographic was aging.

9:15And so they decided to bring in a group of young advisors to help them connect with this next generation of consumers. And the result was 136 % sales growth during the same time period, their closest competitor declined 11.5%. So very, very effective. ThinkLab has modeled a shadow board for our industry, of which everyone here is involved, that basically does the same thing. We're looking at how are we connecting? How are these firms? working. For anyone who's interested in creating that for your own industry or your own company, chapter six of the book tells you exactly how to do that step by step.

9:47But I'm curious for you guys that have participated. You know, Gucci didn't create the shadow board because everything was working. They created it because they realized they were losing touch with that context that we're talking about. So as we tested this model, as you all have been a part of it, what's one thing that surprised you? And I'm going to start with you, Joseph, as our resident Gen Zer. Yes. For me, it's probably the way in which people are still apprehensive about talking about the topic. We, across generations, we see, I think, that technology has now outpaced our ability to keep up with it.

10:23So we also know with that, older generations are returning to the workforce. And what that means is different positions are being filled. Teams might be becoming top heavy and things of that nature. So when you bring it up, hey, I need to know how to do X, Y, Z. The conversation is then looked at potentially, oh, I'm training my replacement. So I may not be as willing to share information with you because you're going to take my seat. So because of all different factors across the industry with the economy, with the social landscape, there's all these different elements that sort of pull back on people's willingness to share and people's willingness to uplift others because everything is so precious now and the younger generation is trying to get in so intensely.

11:13So it's a tricky game to play, but that's really surprising to me. Almost in a way that compensation at one point was a really taboo subject to talk about. That sort of openness and levity is really taboo to me as I've been seeing across the industry. And you feel like it's taboo for the older generations, but not yours? Or you feel like it's taboo for your generation? It varies. You know, I think it's taboo in the sense maybe for my generation that it's uncomfortable to ask or you're not always in a place where you feel like you have the platform to ask or the support to ask. And then taboo from the other side of the fence where it's holding your cards very close, you know, holding your knowledge and not maybe being as open to skill sharing as we may have seen in advisory or internship programs in the past.

12:04Kandan, I'd love to hear as a senior member that's also managing a great deal of younger members, what has surprised you about participating in this panel that you maybe didn't expect? It's really interesting because I do sit in a really lucky position that I do understand the reasoning of senior leadership's actions. And I get to understand the overall direction of the very large firm that I'm a part of, while also gaining the trust and being kind of almost like a therapist ear to many junior designers because they're looking to me for technical advising and advice. on their projects. But what that ends up being is also technical advising and advice on their careers.

12:50And the disconnect is really interesting because I feel like we all want the same thing and no one's really sure how to do it and why there is such a disconnect. But it is almost like we're speaking a little bit of a different language. It's like I find that a lot of the senior leadership that is especially more traditional mindset is they have an expectation of actions or behaviors or something that is from a time when we all worked in the office all of the time. That was in a time that a Gen Zer never experienced and they had no way to learn that and then the the gen zers are kind of coming in and wanting to understand how to work their way into this complex roles that we have because our structure and design you know can be really complex and and kind of paying your dues and understanding who the the head of the project is and who's the second head of the project and that's not necessarily you know written on anyone's email signature of who owns this project.

13:58And so it's almost like we both, we all want to connect and there's just kind of, I don't know, some kind of wall in the middle there that's stopping it. And so I really find myself recently listening a lot to the cohort group and understanding and then trying to figure out how can I take these insights and find that common language. And I I don't think we have that yet, but I think we're getting, we're inching, Amanda. Because no one's read the book yet. Exactly. This is a plug. So I think one of the interesting things, and there is a stat about this in the book, but more has come out since, is that the Gallup Employee Engagement Survey that comes out every year, you all have probably heard pieces of this, but there was a drop off in 2020, which is understandable.

14:46A lot of change happened in 2020. We can all see why that employee engagement might have fallen off. But the more interesting thing, this is in the book, we actually saw an almost equal drop-off in 2024, since I've turned the book in. Actually, the 2025 data came out, and there is an equal drop-off, which is the first time in Gallup's history that they've seen subsequent drop-offs. And that, to me, says burnout. What's happening? Because we haven't seen a pandemic-level change since, but again, we're still operating with these analog-era norms at digital first world paces. And actually, the largest, Candon, is your generation.

15:20It's these mid-level managers that are trying to be those translators up and translators down. So I know, go ahead, do you want to add to that? I was going to say, I'm tired. Yeah. So Caroline, I want to come to you because I feel like you hear this as kind of someone who runs a whole team of Gen Zers in our industry, but also with sponsors that has questions and firm leaders that are nominating these young folks. Like, how does this resonate to you and what are you hearing? Well, all I could think the entire time both of you were speaking was, yes, yes, I hear all of this. And I hear it on both sides of the fence.

15:55And really, when I say both sides of the fence, one side is those that had a full-time career prior to the pandemic happening. And the other side is those that may have been graduating during that time. This might have been their first few years working and that being the norm. And so generations aside, whenever you entered the industry, that matters a lot. And on both sides of the fence, there's a complete us versus them mentality. And both people think that they're in the right. And like Candon was saying, we both really want the same thing. We want connection. We want things to be more seamless.

16:28We don't want to feel burnt out. And I would say, I hear from Gen Zers. I hear from baby boomers. Everyone feels like they are so spent right now. And so what Amanda was saying, I think so much of that is we're trying to force these analog norms into this now digital landscape, but no one really knows how to use the digital landscape. But the older generations look to the younger generation like, hey, you grew up with phones. You should know how to do this. It's like, right, but we didn't work with you guys before. So we don't know what you're trying to do here. So it's just kind of, I think, back to what Candon was saying, it's a language barrier, really, at the end of the day.

17:06Truly, we're all seeking connection. I think where we all get it wrong is connection looks different to different people.

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17:53So super interesting. This is in the book. We looked at some research from Mark McRindle. He's one of the leading generational researchers. And OK, so all the Gen X and baby boomers. I'm going to know who you are by how you answer this. We all grew up with the golden rule. Treat others the way you want to be treated, right? But what McRindle looked at is what good leadership looks like to different generations. To baby boomers, great leaders, direct. So look at what's happening in the largest group that's kind of doing these RTO mandates is who? The baby boomers, right? That are being respectful.

18:26Like in times of crisis, this is what you do. You direct. So we're going to direct people back to the office because that's the best way we know how. And it goes on through what the words are for Gen X coordinates, millennials, and down to Gen Z. To Gen Z, great leaders empower. And receiving RTO mandates is probably the least empowering thing that they're feeling, right? But baby boomers and a lot of leaders aren't sure how to create this empowerment. And I think that that's where a lot of this. So, you know, we talk about shifting from the golden rule to the platinum rule, which is treat others the way they want to be treated, which sounds really nice in a mic on a podcast interview from a stage.

19:03Easy for you to say, Amanda. But it's really hard to kind of figure out that personalization at scale. So I think this actually leads like beautifully into our next question, which is what is one tension this cohort surface that you believe now is existing far beyond our industry? They're all like avoiding eye contact. Like don't call on me. I can jump on this. And I've seen this beyond the industry because of my kind of personal hobbies. I'm going to call it a misplaced confidence, but I don't want that to be a kind of a derogatory term. We all remember when we were young and we thought we knew everything.

19:46And then the older you get, you realize that you don't know anything at all. What I feel like I'm seeing is a misplaced confidence that is being fueled by AI and the internet. But that's being fueled by the isolation and this disconnect in mentorship, right, is what I frequently observe. I observe senior leaders giving a directive and then with an expectation that if the young person didn't understand that they would follow a question. And the young person is like, I don't even know if I can ask a follow-up question. so I'm going to consult the internet and then we have the wrong answers because in design the internet cannot answer many of our questions because we're deep specialists trust me AI has no idea what I'm talking about I will not use it because it autocorrects me incorrectly I'm like I knew what I was saying in the first place so it's this kind of cycle and then the senior designer is like oh they did it wrong this is completely right and the designer is like no I did it right but nobody understood where this disconnect was.

21:01And this is something that I don't know how to solve at all, but it's something that I've observed many, many times and to frustration and burnout and late nights and Google holes that are incorrect and hours lost and sleep lost and frustration. I think that's so interesting. I'm going to bring a statistic to it because it's my favorite nerdy game. When we kicked off our cohort, we did a survey. So this year we have cohort members which are Gen Z and young Millennials that are kind of in that younger age group Kind of helping us understand them and then we have firm champions which is Candon's role kind of more senior members So we had each of them take the same survey One of the questions was about design firms and what their biggest challenges were in specifying product Joseph is laughing because he knows where I'm going 70 % of our cohort of our Gen Z Click the button nothing I know it all which was shocking even to the cohort as we reviewed these results and it was very different a lot of our senior firm leaders were like even had we had more of them say I need to learn things like it's not that I don't know anything so I think this goes back to some of the context of you know even you all when you looked at that was like man I must have been having a really good day that day like I why would I even do that so Joseph do you want to talk to that a little bit and and where you think that might have come from or talk about this context piece yeah I don't know what they had for breakfast that morning, but it was, it was a whole plate of confidence.

22:23I'm going to see if you were one of them now. I'm going to have to go back. You know, I, I love this term. I always think of this term when we talk about this, which is willful innocence. And I've, it's something that I've thought of and brought up and sort of studied in conversation for years, which is the ability to look at yourself and say, you don't know everything. You are incapable of knowing everything. So when it comes to implementing that in practice, there is sort of that oversell of confidence maybe where you feel pressured to have to know everything. And the ability in both a leader and a mentee to step back and go, okay, I don't know everything.

23:11It's okay to ask questions. And asking questions communicates that I'm trying to further understand the things that I don't know. So you're taking action and you're putting, you know, your feet to the pavement on trying to improve yourself. So when I look at statistics like that, it makes me a little weary of your peers. You know, you look around and you go, okay, you know, how many people here are maybe overselling their confidence or maybe how many people here are self-aware and what they don't know, because it's maybe a little overzealous to walk into every room and think that I'm good. I got it.

23:48I know everything. So it's jarring to me to see that. And it makes me wonder what our true priorities are across identifying things like that as a generation. I like the word willful innocence. And I also feel like it could even translate to willful ignorance. If we take it in the negative, but maybe we shouldn't do that. And I think that also translates to other generations. You know, in some of our survey data, we asked young Gen Zers, like, what kept them from asking questions? And the number one thing was I can't tell if they're available for their senior members. You've seen this? I agree.

24:21I agree with this all the time because one of the things that I frequently do when hearing about frustrations with younger designers is speak with any leaders and say, you know, this is what they've shared with me. It sounds like they need some mentorship. You know, maybe it's time to step in or I will, you know, share a specific thing that they're looking at. Like this person needs mentorship on this specific technical thing. I can help with that. But for the project, like we should make those connections and really encourage the check ins and and also reminding some of the more senior leadership that we can't just say we can't just give a directive and run away.

25:00People didn't do that to me when I was a baby intern. somebody checked in on me they popped by my desk and they said do you know what you're doing how are those red lines coming we have a deadline and what questions do you have so and that is another thing that is one of those things I feel like that's losing as we're sitting next to each other on screens so it's like all a all a trickle yeah I feel like this mentorship piece has really come up a lot and I'm going to come to you on this one too because I think that's one of the biggest reasons we're told we have to come back into the office but it's something that's come loud and clear from our cohort is you tell me I have to be back in the office, but now I'm just on Zoom in a different place.

25:39And now there's worse snacks and the bathroom is further away. But one of my favorite quotes was from a previous podcast guest. It was a Gen Zer who said, yeah, we have to be in the office because our mentorship models are still built from that analog era, from that apprenticeship model. So until we reframe it so it can happen in a digital first world. And digital first does not mean digital only. Digital first does not even mean you have to be from your home. Think about that woman that I was talking about earlier working in Salt Lake where her team is spread out across the world, right? She's working with people in Tokyo and other countries as well.

26:13So what do you hear when we start talking about this mentorship conversation? What questions are you getting? Because I'm sure it's not just our industry that's struggling with this. You're right. It is not just our industry that's struggling with this. And going back to that kind of two sides of the street, I think both parties here of the younger generation and more established in the workforce generations feel this kind of difficult stickiness with mentorship. And I think it goes back to a little bit of expectations of how a Gen Zer or someone who is younger expects to have things a little more handheld.