14: Alex Zhang - Curating Cultural Playgrounds

31:15So it was like those two trends and personal experiences started to sort of occur separately just out of my own natural curiosity. On the skiing side, I became obsessed with equipment and gear and learning and I started getting every fancy new ski toy because it just became fun to like feel like I was leveling up physically and in a sport where there's like a heavy culture around it like and then simultaneously around art beginning to like these people who visit Marfa and you know it's like a it's like a it's like a check box of like you do all these experiences and so organically when we started thinking you know the kind of the the the smooth brain would be like well why hasn't these sort of artistic experiences taken place on a on scene that went before and then you start to go through the the logistical jujitsu of oh well like labor costs and staffing and it really couldn't work but then you actually start to realize like on a ski on a mountain maybe yes but on a ski mountain where you have 500 600 seasonal employees who operate and maintain the the land and the ski resort could you train ski staff to maintain art like it started to literally cross sort of like that and then you know obviously when the conversation sort of naturally arose with Reed and we sort of shared this kind of kismet-y moment around it and he had the resources to meaningfully sort of enable it.

32:31It became sort of then honestly back to the like pure idea then to act and then to realizing an actual product laden with flaws and challenges that you're sort of working through but by then you're already committed. So then that to me is just like the process of sort of figuring it out. What I love about those large kind of architectural scale art things is there's this, I think it's from John Collison, one of the Stripe guys. He says the world is a museum of passion projects. And I think those types of things, and you could, if you wanted to stretch, you guys have talked about Desert Axe, obviously like Burning Man.

33:05You mentioned Marfa too. Like even the Terrell Rodent Crater stuff. Like talk about passion projects. Totally. Truly just like one guy or a small group of people saying like, I'm going to do something that doesn't. And maybe it ties back to the earlier question, too, which is in skiing. Like, yeah, people love skiing. People have built some amazing mountain things. But you'd have to care a whole lot about art and doing something weird and fun to, one, want to invest in something like that. In Reed's case, but two, have the people with the time and ability and capability to try to like do something.

33:37so there's not like a in some sense back to the earlier question that it's hard to imagine it fitting very cleanly on some like strategy deck well it doesn't because it's authentic and it's accidental and it's random right and that's the kind of purity that i think is what draws really strong ideas and yeah you know full circling it back to like all those examples you mentioned roading crater like all of those were built on the patron model like there is no business model to Roden Crater. James's business model for Roden Crater is he sells art to like separately to finance as much as he can for Roden, which is his magnum opus.

34:14And I think Naoshima took 50 years of that family working on it, going through multiple recessions, going through multiple bankruptcies and continuing to push forward. And anytime they made money in category A, they would fill it over into category B to continue to sort of sustain it. So it's like, It's clear there hasn't really been an efficient capital culture model quite yet. And we've seen that capitalism gets its nails sunk very deep quickly in anything cultural really fast and tends to kill it. Let's just say - If it starts really working. Correct. With the music industry or whatever and top hits and what ends up happening in that sort of instance.

34:50But to your point around, yeah, I guess that authenticity of an overlap, to me it's when we put out the release and we started to share with the world what we were doing with with with powder mountain and sort of the art program the amount of notes and random emails i was getting from people being like this is the most like perfect insane project i feel so seen how can i get involved i grew up and then you start hearing all the stories i grew up on the mountains my dad was a ski patroller weird venn dine i'm now in new york i worked in the gallery for 20 years like you then realize oh wow there's a lot more randomness than you had imagined and then also a lot more overlaps and relevance where if we can sort of deliver this experience i think it'll be a really really special special one what has it been like to return to for people who don't know you obviously spend a ton of time around powder mountain in one context and you left it for a while with summit and you come you come back to it in a literally returning to the same place but also coming at it from like a one a new set of people a new context a new orientation how is that does it feel like coming back around on the merry-go-round does it feel like i don't know climbing the same mountain twice is it totally new the rare opportunity in your career the joke i give is um if if if you've watched uh if any of you guys have watched succession is that i feel like tom lomskand or i'm just like the last guy standing and i just kind of like i i joke right a little more competent and yeah but i look around and i'm like how am i still i'm how am i here you know but uh no real talk um yeah it's interesting i think it's like uh in a way it's almost like a toxic relationship where you're like how am i coming back to the i convicts her like yeah exactly and and and and perhaps the mountain is like a siren call luring me to the to the craggy rocks but yeah no i think i think the mountain mountains in general are such intoxicating places so i think any chance you get to sort of create something i'm just i think any chance you get to create something permanent like like really permanent to me is what's the most motivating thing that will allow that will keep continuing my drive to to work on it and often people ask oh is this like a couple year thing what's your next project i'm like i i definitely will work on other things but i feel like this project specifically will be a lifelong endeavor i don't know what full what the full capacity will be.

37:15But to an extent, like in shaping, in shaping a town, it's like, I've got, we're building the master plan right now. And the master plan has five, 10, 15, 20, 25 year time scales on it. So it's like, I want to see that through. I don't know what the extent will be in year 20, but I definitely want to play a role in at least coming back and participating in sort of these architectural design charrettes and sort of watching it evolve. So, so it really is a thing that I think, you know, it's not too overly complicated of like, oh, I'm back. You know, at the end of the day, it's a place a lot of people deeply care about.

37:47I feel super lucky to be able to be one of the stewards of it. There will be other stewards that come after me, but to be back in the mix and yes, to have all the conditions have changed in a more positive way in terms of financing and leadership and all of that allows us to really move forward at a much more accelerated and also focused pace. it's cool to think about too the tension between what you started with and what i still think you're amazing at which is creating one amazing experience for a night you mentioned in the context of a party like this is never going to happen again and then maybe the full other swing you mentioned like yeah if you're lucky you the work you guys are doing on powder is like part one of a many decade journey like you're just laying the groundwork for for what might be able to come in the future what one one specific question on that that feel free to take kind of however you would want to, but there's a number of iconic, let's just say, ski places in the U.S.

38:42You have Jackson Hole and Park City and Yellowstone Club is a sort of different type of example. In Sun Valley, some of this is obviously in the private public and in the different elements of the actual mountain, but I'm curious if there is anything that feels most important to get right about powder relative to the field. How do you guys want to be the most, what is most important to be different in? Yeah. So the, I think the art will be obviously our fundamental differentiator in that no other ski destination in the world will have a, you know, a site-specific art sort of sculpture park or sort of art integration to this extent.

39:23So I think that'll be a clear difference. The goal there is to basically do the Naoshima or Storm King's time. Naoshima ice is my joke. Yeah, Storm King's. Yeah, exactly. And then in the actual - All over the whole mountain? Yeah, all throughout this 12 ,000 skival acres. So the idea is you have a multi-season, multi-modal way of experiencing art that you ski to in the winter, you hike and you mountain bike to in the summer. The work is spaced out and given room to breathe. It's not like you see sculpture, sculpture, sculpture, sculpture in one view shed, but you ski for 10 minutes to one place and you see a 30-foot sculpture.

39:57and that you just get space, time to breathe and to ingest it and to reflect on it. And then you go back into the pure wilderness to then reemerge back into sort of another artistic experience. But secondly, I think what will be our biggest differentiators, I mean, really architecture in the Western Hemisphere ski resorts has been pretty one note for the last 30 years. I think the big opportunity is to really do something different. It's either sort of American West log cabin-y vibe or it's faux Bavarian, you know, post-World War II, 10th Mountain Division. All these developers went to like Zermatt for their first time.

40:37So they like in a classic American way, like just literally copied it. Zermatt is great, by the way. One for one. It's amazing. But, you know, so much so to literally just it's a very American attitude. Well, we like this. We're just going to rebuild this one for one here. in an amusement capacity. So that's what they did. And it worked for, you know, so many years. And it's charming. You know, you go to these American ski towns and it feels kind of Austrian or Bavarian. But, you know, our great challenge is how do we reinterpret and create a set of architectural guidelines and designs that all the homeowners follow, all of our public buildings and amenities and commercial buildings follow, that unifies a place that sets a new sort of architectural language.

41:20So we're kind of calling it internally high Alpine architecture and trying to think about, okay, well, what does that mean in the context of the American West? How can we shed the sort of big log cabin feeling that obviously has like historical relevance? How can we draw inspiration from, you know, high Alpine environments in the Alps, but not like one for one copy the ornamentation, but like sort of look at more of the like efficient building strategies, the notion that the roof is sort of this dominant feature. That's why when you see these amazing photos on the internet of the Alps, you see sort of all these snowy towns covered in snow with the lights on.

41:56It's all designed intentionally in that capacity. So we're taking and borrowing and remixing all of those things that we find really interesting into what we're calling high Alpine architecture, which will be essentially infrastructure and architecture that's defined by buildings that have really strong roof presences big overhangs big heaves natural wood siding stone bases that you know are sort of laid out in a very organic way that hopefully over time if that pattern can can can sort of propagate will create something in the u.s that is like super distinct yeah yeah that's cool what do you love about utah and how has living in the mountains changed you oh wow i love uh i love I love Utah so much.

42:41It's grown on me so deeply. The most amount of time I'd spent there, I'd been visiting on and off since I was in my early, early 20s when I was working with Summit. And for folks who don't know, Summit, where I previously used to own Powder Mountain, that was sort of the context of that notion of kind of coming back. But I'd been visiting on and off a week at a time, two weeks at a time, a couple days at a time. but then it was really COVID when I actually just lived there for a year straight did you ever visit me during that yeah yeah so so it was just like a year straight maybe even a year and a half and it was me living in a house with four other people and it was honestly like I think of it as probably my most fond memories of my life time you know I think a couple things I noticed and began to enjoy and learn one that was the season that was the year where I first learned to cook and I sort of fell in love with cooking.

43:35And, you know, obviously COVID, no restaurants. So I started to fall in love with the process of finding produce and going to farms and going to farmer's markets and understanding the bare bones, the sort of essential quality of food and how if you combine all of those things together, you know, salt, fat, acid, heat, that whole logic, that it can create something really, really amazing. So we played a game where every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, each person in the house took a different night to cook and it became almost competitive. And I was Tuesday night. So like all of a sudden it was like I was flying in fish from Alaska and doing sushi night.

44:14Someone else was doing like a 24 hour roast. It just became like a game of like, what else were we going to do during the pandemic? So I think food, also just watching sort of the natural process of entropy and sort of season change. I think it was so amazing to watch winter melt into spring, all that snow melt and every, it felt like the whole mountain was like leaking. Every crevice was like gushing water and snow melt. And then all of a sudden in like a month, you watch the flowers start to sort of the grass. Most of us drop into mountain towns, by the way. We just get a tiny slice. So I got to fall in love with like the trend, like everyone calls it mud season and you always avoid it and it's gross.

44:54But I actually was like, wow, this is so poetic and beautiful. And then when the summer came, you were just so filled with gratitude to be like, this whole thing I'm looking at is an organism. Yes. The snow that was here that we were recreating on is now melted. It's filled the reservoir. That water has seeped into the earth. That has allowed for now these lush flowers and plants and trees and all these things to grow over the course of the summer. And the summer is like lush. It's like Switzerland over there. It's like swimming in the lake and in forests and flowers. and then you watch all the leaves turn red orange yellow and eventually die get barren and that first storm comes and then you watch it happen again and it's it was such a beautiful also we're both from southern california for those listeners who are like seasons are obvious i actually realized how i mean i don't know i moved to new york you did something similar shortly before i did i moved to new york a couple years ago i'm experiencing but this is also i think a level of a level of texture and richness on the season scale yeah yeah and and then and i think the last thing i'd add of that is um i was talking to oh dave morin who spends a lot of times and a lot of time in mountains as well and we were kind of talking about this notion of like why are we happier in the mountains and i think it's because when you live in a place where the common denominator or revolving factor is nature or god let's say god isn't just the more you know whatever uh generalist phrase where it's something not in your control, everyone begins already entering on that.

46:25So if anyone's ever lived in a mountain town or maybe the equivalent of lived in a beach town, you know that there's a frenetic energy in the air the night before a storm when the forecast is projecting nine inches of powder and everyone's like, dinner's ending early, everybody. We're going to bed. It's just kind of like, and you're in the grocery store the afternoon of and you're like, oh, storm's coming in. And, you know, so it's this amazing like like way of living in tune with your environment that I think brings you so much closer to everybody around you. And then when you that next morning, when then everyone's on the hill and everyone's skiing together, it's so you just realize how precious it is.

47:04Like all these things came together. Yeah. The weather, the temperature. And you're not on your own schedule a little bit. Modern life is very much. I'm going to watch what I want to watch and do what I want to do. Totally. Maximum efficiency. And on my schedule, I want. It's also, for those who don't know, the town you live in when you're near Powder is called Eden, Utah, which I think is about as telling as it gets. I want to talk a little bit about this basket of architecture and planning and cities and some of your key inspirations, as people probably have a sense of. Like, I think you're a very high action-oriented person and you've done so much in the world and you've thrown so many events and been in so many places.

47:42But I think you're also pretty influenced by theory. And there are a couple of people in particular that I thought would be fun to chat about in that they embody so much of what feels like your core essence about how you think about building things, whether it be organizations or communities or places. This very bottom up grassroots gardening orientation. And the two people in particular are Christopher Alexander and Jane Jacobs. for a while while you were running FWB, you referred to yourself as the Jane Jacobs of Dows, which was amazing. Back to a bizarre overlaps. Yeah, exactly. Literally, like, what better example could we have?

48:19Alexander, I think, has this phrase that cities are, like, a mosaic of subcultures. Maybe to start with cities, because this will get into some of the digital stuff and FWB stuff, too, but I guess what is a very open-ended question, Like what is important to you about cities and why are you so attracted to this very sort of like bottom up emergent orientation for the world, at least in these types of complex systems? Yeah, I think the let's see the triangulation of like, let's call it some of these mediums of cities, events, social platforms. I think all these things I've always been drawn toward is I'm very fascinated by building systems that allow for randomness and connection to sort of occur.

49:08So I, you know, to me, it's like kind of obsession over building the apparatus or the scaffolding that allows for these sort of interactions to be facilitated. So, you know, whether it's when we were talking about events, lighting, music, you know, the distance between the stage to the bar, to me, it was no different than if you're thinking about building sort of a social app, thinking about where are people congregating inside of that digital space? What is your relationship between, you know, sort of the push notification and getting pulled back? It's all the same thing, which is like one person is in control or there's a set of the controller designing the conditions.

49:48And then the human is being put inside of that environment to essentially discover oneself and discover the environment around them. And it's through that process of discovery that I think like that sort of joy is created that creates the delightful moments when we find a really cool application we like or when we go to a really good event or a good party. And so it's all the same to me in a way. So architecture is the most permanent version of that, which is what is the most exciting and also daunting. You know, we, Reed and I joke a lot about, since he's a tech guy, he's used to being able to like push code and pull it back and manipulate it.

50:23But we're always reminding each other that But in architecture and real estate, the only thing you can do if you mess up is to grow ivy on something. So you can't change it. I can't. If I put the stage in the wrong place. That's why there's so much ivy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, I think. But it's all the same. And so, well, if I were to try to draw any distinction, to me at least, architecture feels more like rules. And some of those elements you described, even in a physical environment, feel more like prompts or sort of like nudges or gestures. And the closer you get to physical durability, the more they're like imposing rules.

50:59Yeah. But that notably, I mean, Christopher Alexander, when it comes to architects, is about as one end of the spectrum as you could possibly get. Yeah, totally. And so, yeah, I think I think what I what draws me most to those people like Jane or Christopher Alexander is just this very humanistic. And, you know, anthropological, sociological approach to thinking about systems and rules like they're very they're they're pro human. They're pro feeling, they're pro emotion of just like, what, like, why are we drawn towards natural light hitting the side of a nook underneath a windowsill? I don't know.

51:32But like, anytime it's in a house, you want to sit there. Yes. It's where you naturally sort of gravitate towards. And so I think thinking about like the theory side of it has always been really, really, really inspiring. because like why not stand on the shoulders of the giants who have come before you when when when painting on a really really large scale on a canvas it's like i almost don't have time or money to make mistakes like that right but you also don't get stuck as someone who probably is slightly more in the tempted to get stuck in the theory like you are very much like theory so i can do stuff yeah totally i'm always i'm only a theory so i can do stuff how any any uh rationalization on that i'm just kind of impatient i've always been impatient so it's like it's like uh if i learn something i almost it's let's go try it let's go try it that's fine yeah exactly why not i like that prior to powder you were the mayor slash sort of ceo of friends with benefits what goes into which is people can look it up they want more context it's one of the one of the first if not the first crypto native social media type things or dows the big idea though it was an attempt to create a place on the internet a digital place that had some sense of feeling and weight and obviously i think many people who have experienced fest got to experience the digital shelling point turned into a physical space which was cool but lingering on the digital part for a second, like, in hindsight, maybe especially like what actually goes into creating something digital that can have some of the great elements of what a physical place might have?

53:11Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is just when thinking about sort of a digital environment, like we kept coming back to this theory of like, you know, the strength of the collective is sort of defined by the strength of the one to one connections between the people. So like often in user experience design, like how can you facilitate more one on one connections? How can you increase the rate of chat or DM between different sort of users inside of an environment? Because if you're presuming that A and B are now going offline to meet and talk and build a relationship, that they're going to come back and sort of further strengthen that larger collective piece.

53:44Just like a great party is good at prompting people to talk to each other. The best parties are when you are having an amazing hallway conversation with somebody and then you pop back into the main space and there's like this great collective moment. And, you know, I think of I think why concerts are sort of think of just like, I don't know, let's go back to the ancient Greek Colosseum and the sort of all eyes on one performer. I think that is a very humanistic trait of like a collective attention concentrating on one person orating or speaking or performing or singing or broadcasting to a wider group of people.

54:19So I think like to me, that moment where you have in the digital space where everyone sort of tuned in to one moment. So why are we so why is X so entertaining sometimes? Because when when when speed in China on Twitch. Yeah, we're all part of some. We're part of some moment together back to that sense of sort of belonging. So it's all this. I mean, it's like not to get too woo woo, but it's all all of it boils back down to, I think. People are seeking belonging, community, being a part of something bigger than themselves. tech platforms to accelerate that feeling. Events create that, you know, in a sort of a higher fidelity because we are still in meat space and we are still like, have sensory experiences that can't fully be translated yet through digital environments.

55:02And I think the ultimate, my ultimate North Star in life is to seek and produce and create and to be among those sorts of moments and those experiences, if that makes sense. One of the ideas that I don't think is really that close to FWDB, but is at least adjacent. and people in crypto have certainly been interested in this internet broadly is this idea of like, can we take these digital things and actually produce much more substantial, whether it be a network state or an emergent city or a sort of hybrid physical digital city, there are different variations of people trying this now. And there are lots of components in that there's can you build an economy that can you have the cultural production?

55:43Can you have the physical part of it? Any broad thoughts, especially maybe with the hindsight of FWB about these things and maybe what the biggest hurdles for them are. Yeah, I'm relatively pessimistic on like sort of network states, if you will, or network states or these sort of broader things. I think it's incredibly aspirational and exciting, and I'm all in on it theoretically and conceptually. And what was that one that Toby went to that we were talking about? Yeah, Edge Esmeralda. Yeah, and like I was talking to him and the guy who started that, And I found that to be one of the most interesting apparatuses for it.

56:20But I still - For context, there's Esmerella, which is Devin's Wagle, which is specifically Esmerella. And then Edge City is doing this all over the world. We're doing one a quarter. Correct. And so I think those are really inspiring models. And I think that might be a model that actually sounds incredibly sound. I think the pitfalls are, it needs to be a lot more, there needs to be a lot more diversity and porousness of entry and exit. And I think when it becomes too... Don't cities... What about friction, though? Like, my instinct would be that, if anything, part of what they need to do is to instill more friction, both to get there and to...

56:57And granted, like, Esmeralda was a month, FWE Fest is a... Or Burning Man, or a week or a weekend. But to me, it feels in part that a huge part of what makes it meaningful is actually that it's not like a thing happening in New York City. Like, it actually requires... And so I'm sympathetic to the poorest in this point, and certainly a diversity point, but like, it does feel like you eat, you need, it helps that even powder mountain is like a little off the beaten path. Yeah. So sorry, maybe we're talking about two things. I think there's the, um, let's call it the temporary event model that I think is like the edge city model.

57:34And that's temporary. Temporary can be anyone from a three day festival to a four month long experiment. I'm totally for that. I'm fully aligned that friction. that value. I think in talking more about, I guess I was using an example like Dryden's Praxis thing and thinking about like, oh, we're going to create a permanent place. I think that needs, to some extent, some friction. But I think you need to find a way to increase a lot more diversity and stratification. And frankly, you need a mosaic of subcultures. You need diversity and experience. If it's everyone from Dime Square hanging out in Greece, it's just not going to last very long.

58:06Which means you probably also have to tolerate some people coming and going. That's what you need to build in that. That makes sense. You need that flexible immigration policy. And so I think I think but I think for the temporary thing, we actually want to hold people for a focused amount of time. Yeah, you actually want, I think, some level of friction. Right. Powder definitely being that it's kind of off the beaten path. There's a whole private ski club component to it where we're indoctrinating sort of rituals and values and community. And there's a whole business, there's a very explicit business model around that.

58:35That includes essentially it's a country club, right? It's a high membership fee, high initiation fee tied to real estate that you buy in and we're only doing 650 home sites. So it'll be a 650 family community forever. So that'll be in our premium neighborhood. And then we're building hotels and - By the way, it's adjacent to Eden and the other - All these other areas. And that to me, so that highly porous, highly porous, highly, and then on the private side, highly, you know, high intensity friction. Makes sense. And then that's at least how we anticipate the two to interact. So, yeah, I guess your point of what would your reservations be around those sorts of models, I think.

59:14Or even just things that they should have in mind, not even necessarily just hurdles that they're going to have to figure out. Yeah. Hurdles that they're going to have to figure out. I also think are around, yeah, how do you introduce enough diversity of thought and activity and experience and create that sort of range? But also how do you create a back to a why? How do you create a strong enough why that everyone there can quickly, mimetically share it? Here's why we're here. Right, right. And those two things are sort of intense. You think about like the U.S. U.S. is a great example of this early on.

59:42It's like a very, very clear unifying why that also is sort of like you can be whoever you want. And those things, if you pull it off, are amazing together, but they're kind of intentioned. Totally. So let's call a cult high Y, low range of activities. Right, right, right. Which is why there's a scaling problem, Dunbar, past 150, whatever. And then, you know, beyond cult, post cults, like if you go to a true establishment of a new settler establishing a new town, it's like you need to make it porous and you need to have a freedom of entry and exit, I think. And then you need to have a strong sort of economic reason to stick around.

1:00:25How are you contributing beyond the vibes? Like what is post vibes? What is the like, oh, I'm generating a unique opportunity. Or now we live in this sort of remote work world and it's got to be some other reason to stick around. Some other reason for meaning to exist there. Totally. Which could be, yeah. Another huge part of so much of what you've done is community. And community is a word that sometimes like almost feels completely empty nowadays. Yeah. And I think part of that tension is maybe the delineation between community and brand and some of those questions. And I want to get into that, but maybe just to start like any sense of or an attempt to sort of try to describe what community is and how what core things you think go into building it.

1:01:10you've built communities in very tangible ways, whether it be at USC, obviously at Summit, you built a digital community that became physical with FWB, and now you're very much thinking about community and the broader kind of ecosystem around powder. Yeah. I mean, to me, community is just a really strong shared sense of beliefs, vernacular, ideology, where if you were to interact with another person from within that network or within in that community somewhere else in the world, there's a high sense of belonging and intimacy and safety that can immediately be sort of established with that person.

1:01:48So to me, like, oh, you know, I have a really good example. Last week I was in this random bar in Milan. I was catching up with a friend. She asked me, you know, we were just getting to know each other and she was like, where'd you grow up? And I was like, Claremont, California. And then literally the bartender looks at me and goes, what the hell? I grew up in Claremont, California. And I was like, what? And we both were like, he's like, where? He's like, I grew up on Indian Hills. I was like, oh my God, I grew up on baseline. And all of a sudden we're like, oh, did you go to 42nd Bagel Street?

1:02:14Like vernacular language. We were just like going so deep to the point where my friend was like, I'm going to let you guys catch up for a little bit and I'll be right back. And I felt like in that rare moment, the world shrunk. Yes. And we were halfway around the world. I don't even know this person. He doesn't even know me. Right. And we just had so much. We just understood each other so deeply. and we saw each other, that I think, to me, community is the ability to tap into that feeling wherever you are. This tribal identity. This tribal identity, yeah. This notion that as you, I think why FWV was so resonant is that it's like, especially at the peak of sort of whatever crypto culture, was like crypto is a very isolating community.

1:02:57It's intense. There's bad PR. It's laden with bad PR and bad vibes. And you're a scammer if you work in crypto. And so, and it wasn't like cool, whatever cool means. But then as you move through that culture and that world, and then if you interacted with somebody who was also in Friends with Benefits, there was this fundamental assumption that they were different. That they were also a real person in a cultural sector. And that immediately created this sense of like, oh, we're both like, we're straddling this weird Venn diagram of like, we're really interested in technology and new modes of technology.

1:03:34But we also can talk about like, oh, did you hear that new album that came out? So it's kind of this like, it's kind of this like transgression that allows for you to, those types of moments that make the world feel smaller. And so I think that's ultimately what, what I seek to sort of like try to facilitate if that makes sense. Yeah. Crypto also can be very tribal at a global level, especially when it's working. But like anytime one, it's not working or two, you just get like two or three clicks beneath the surface. there's a little bit of a sense of like, where are the subcultures? And I think after you filled that a lot, what about like building?

1:04:08Cause obviously one of the reasons the word is sort of loaded now is that people are commercially trying to build community and not even in always horrible ways, but brands are trying to build communities. In your guys' case, you literally set out to build a community. And granted, I think you did it in a lot of bottom-up ways, but it was very deliberate. And I have to contrast that with the first example you gave, which is like the emergent community that anyone's going to feel with like where they grew up. are there ways to intentionally build community that still hold on to this sort of, I don't know if it's authenticity or if it's just a certain quality or like, like if it's totally deliberate, does it not work?

1:04:47So I think we're just overthinking. Okay. You know what I mean? I think community is like, if you were to ask someone 500 years ago, who would just, they wouldn't be calling it community in the way we've sort of like branded it as like a, like they would just be like, yeah, I had 10 people over for dinner because they are my friends. Right. So I think of it as like, perhaps there is some factor of, of we're over complicating it. And there's one, I think second, ultimately like, yes, there are, I think like, the ultimate question is just like, at what point does the authenticity around community building break when like capital or commerce enters the equation and it becomes too clearly exploitative or too clearly like one side is profiting over the other, like whoever's sort of creating that, you know, that unequal dynamic.

1:05:33And so to me, my take in, how do you actually create sustainable communities or at least where do I think the future of whatever, the community, let's just say, where do I think the future of the community business model is going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is I think like, you know, I'm watching the whole new next gen of membership clubs pop up, Living Room in LA, WSA in New York, Cipriani, Chez Margot, whatever. They're all coming up again of like SVB, Soho House, Noya House was sort of era one, And then they felt like in this, and this is a very US take. And then now we're sort of watching this next gen come up.

1:06:03And the ones that are the most interesting to me are the ones that are tied to a very explicit utilitarian function or purpose, or a very like lifestyle niche oriented way of living. So two examples. One, I think WSA, what they're doing in New York is super fascinating with their tying office space to that sense of identity and community, but in a way that is like way more strategic than we work where it's not like a floating desk, but it's like you get a corner office in this old AIG building that they renovated with great design and everyone there's sort of a creative and you get a little small cubicle effectively, but the furniture in there is USM, they've got great design and you're in there and you feel like it's a luxe premium service.

1:06:43It's also built something very tangible which is like I actually need office space. 100 % so when I pay the rent I'm meaning I'm happily contributing to an exchange of goods. And then I get back to current commerce and culture. And then I get the community component on top of it that is all upside and it feels authentic. I'm here to work. I'm not here to like seek community because there's always going to be this kind of Groucho Marx. I never want to be the club that'll have me that whole dynamic. For sure. And so I think that's on the utilitarian side. I think on the lifestyle specificity side, you've got things like Remedy Place where it's really focused around health and wellness.

1:07:16And this is the like upscale spa. Yeah, exactly. To, you know, I think what was an atomic clouds like car club thing where it's all around like, or my buddy starting one in Park City called Warehouse, where it's like all luxury cars that you get to store in the warehouse. So that's like a full utilitarian need where you're paying rent to store your high-end vehicle. But then there's like a members club and a bar above the warehouse of the car garage. And then everyone does coordinated drives every other weekend. So they get to talk about a shared interest they have. And so there's real depth to it.

1:07:50And I I would honestly put powder in something similar where no one's joining us if they don't like to ski. Skiing is the fundamental reason of joining. So I think to me, it's really like, what is the future of this community model, these community businesses is I think this shared interest, true utilitarian thing, because my take is that over time, there will be this like full race to the bottom zero of like, there's gonna be a real scaling issue of like how many members clubs I wanna be a part of just because it's a reservation. And every time one gets big enough, it's no longer interesting.

1:08:23Cool, then it moves on in the next one. Right. I also want to talk about leadership. I think one way into talking about this would be that you've had a pattern of sort of finding people who have ambitious visions that are pretty fuzzy, but there's like some kind of seed or ignition. And I think you both come in, like there's certainly a template but for like bringing somebody to operationalize it, that's kind of you. You are kind of arms and legs, but you're also very much typically coming in as like a creative visionary or collaborator. You've done this with Reed. Obviously, most recently, you took what was effectively like a Discord server with Trevor and FWB and turned it into this very thing that was full of life.

1:09:04And then obviously you came into Summit as well that had a whole bunch of stuff it had done and got to put your fingerprints on it. Is there a reason you think you're attracted to these types of things? These types of leaders, you mean? uh like specifically it's like you're coming in when there's like a little bit of something and it's not totally clear what this is and the person behind it wants to there's like an ambitious vision there but it's like kind of fuzzy and most people either like i'm gonna do my thing i don't care what anybody else thinks or like i'm gonna join something that's working and you're like you're this really great you're like this kerosene that like that pours onto a thing that i don't know i was in fdb when it first started and it was not yeah it was interesting but not really that substantive yeah and obviously reed i think was interested in this project but it seemed to me at least in some part meeting you was a a kindling for this to become something real yeah i'm highly generative and i and i and i'm a people person so like i don't i don't think i'd be the solo founder too boring for me so like i i love partnership i love i love being able to call somebody and punch through an idea yeah i like winning together i like losing together i like that whole process of it and i think you know in college i had like a brief stint as like a music manager and in that process i would always say i loved my favorite thing about it was i loved being behind the stage behind the curtain watching the the the the talent or the you know the artist do their thing and i my fulfillment was feeling like i helped make this happen right i produced the conditions for this to happen i'm so happy i'm not on the stage i think you are not only producing the conditions for it to happen but you're also i think very good at making the person believe it can happen yeah and i'm and that's back to the generative thing i'm very like i like to inspire and poke and push and prod.

1:11:02And so I think that early on was like, I loved that behind the scenes kind of nature of it almost to an extent. And then, yeah. So then I think through that, I guess you are right in reflecting that. I have like partnership and it's fun entering into kind of that zone where it's, I think it's one of the most amazing, intimate generative things you can do with somebody is to build, I don't want to say build a business. Like build, maybe. Yeah, link and build. It's so fun. I think it can be even more, it's different than a romantic relationship, but it can be really like you get to watch this thing actually exist in the world and have market forces react to it is different than like building a family with somebody.

1:11:43Right. Yeah. You've done a lot of like learning on the fly, especially in these contexts. And in particular, usually learning on the fly that requires also like getting some amount of existing people's buy-in. So again, with Summit, certainly you ended up even becoming like an interim CEO and president of Summit at one point with a whole lot of five years of history. You come into FWV, there's a bunch of people to discord. There's not that much organization. Reed, again, new relationship and then also all the history of powder. And so you're like, you're coming in, you're both learning really fast and quickly building credibility or trust.

1:12:20Is that something that you, it's just a product of agency and competence? Or is that something you're kind of conscious of? Building trust quickly? Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm trying to combine two things here, which is a mix of learning really fast and building trust while you learn really fast, which maybe those two things inherently are reflexive. They inform each other, but. Yeah, I mean, I think high trust organizations are like, I think the key and the only way to success. And so I've always been very drawn to facilitating as much trust as quickly as sort of possible between people. You almost have to like win over people from day one.

1:13:01When you come in to FWB as the mayor slash CEO of this thing that doesn't really have a leader, it's like there's like I'm going to start a new job and I'm going to learn really fast. That's fine. Or there's like there's an organization that has trust. But you're basically like coming in. I have to learn what this place is and then win trust as quickly as possible. I think it's going to break. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a valid observation. I think maybe, you know, I feel like I've weirdly been doing that my whole life, which is just like I've been, you know, I grew up in a very small private school for K through eighth grade, and then I transferred to a huge public school, and I quite quickly had to, like, find my own and find my voice and win over trust, if you will.

1:13:42And by, you know, whatever senior year, it was sort of prom court thing. You know, it was like winning trust. You quickly end up a leader. Accelerating, yeah. or entering a new context. Overwhelming. It keeps happening. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a super valid observation, and I think it's same for even in university, right, with the radio station and all those things became organic leadership opportunities. I'm not, you know, some might say I'm like power hungry. I think I like power because I like making decisions that impact things, but I don't think I'm seeking anything purely for power for power's sake.

1:14:17Like it's more so I like to lead and make decisions and get a group of people working together in the same direction. Like that's a very motivating, fulfilling feeling of mine is achieving results together as a group. And so I think over time, it's just been learning how to perhaps create the conditions for high trust to occur for a relatively new leader to enter. And so to me, I think that's a mix of having really, really high EQ and sort of sitting down with all the different stakeholders and people and quickly like and then second i think it's also just having a really good idea like i you know not to be too like you know not to be too reductive but like if you can come in and have a good idea and communicate that really good idea and get people behind that idea and then quickly validate it it's almost like well we might as well follow it because because i actually think most people want to follow especially if there isn't a lot of clarity of vision totally it's this all it's like a zipper it just like or it's a gravity Yeah, it's about I think it's about taking something I've always enjoyed doing is taking really complex ideas, distilling them into really core, basic fundamental visions and then communicating that out.

1:15:23And so like I'll, you know, one thing we're constantly doing at Powder and the exercise we and I are always doing is it's so easy to quickly become like, oh, we're this luxury ski destination and we're going to and we're doing art and then we're going to do architecture and then we're going to do longevity and wellness and then we're going to do music and then we're going to do food and get Massimo Batur to fly in and do shit. And you're kind of like you're now like if you become everything, you become nothing. And I remember having this argument a lot at FWB over and over because it was probably the hardest organization I've ever had to lead because of its sort of like headless nature.

1:15:54And it was a community and it was a DAO. And everyone has an opinion. Everyone has an opinion. You kind of, you had to listen to it. And it was part of the, almost part of the LARP was to listen to it. Right. But I would say that like what was really interesting to, you know, in the exercise we and I are going through now is we're like, no, no, we actually need to like really focus. Powder Mountain is about art and skiing. And we are really trying to own that category and that Venn diagram. And then back to the like trust and creating that environment, it's great. So now our job is to really communicate that over and over and over to as many people as possible to the point where that becomes a very clear identity as to why, like sort of an organizational fabric.

1:16:37So one of the things that I find, I found super valuable and one of the coolest learning opportunities I had working with Redon Powder was like brainstorming with him early on on on creating the company values. And I remember thinking like, you know, you all read about HBS or MBA sort of company values and authenticity, integrity, respect, you know, whatever. But Reed's take was always like, like if you do throw away words, it's gonna be throw away values and it doesn't actually mean anything. And he was like, instead, like, can we come up with really sticky, specific, authentic words that when you speak them, it feels very, very visceral and authentic to the culture.

1:17:17Opinionated. And opinionated. No, exactly. And be very, very opinionated. And so, you know, at Powder, we kind of quickly arrived on this notion of like, okay, at Powder Mountain, you know, we are big hearted champions who pick up the trash. And we created each of those, you know, big hearted was one. We specifically chose that word to be like, cool, we want to be a passionate place. This is a ski town. Reads explicit about like, it's not a Silicon Valley tech company of like, win at all costs. It's about love. It's about passion for the mountains. But then champion is in like, we all want to be on a winning team.

1:17:44So it's not about like, well, this person isn't doing their job, but we like them. So let's keep them. It's like, if they're not executing, then they're probably not a good fit. But to still marry that with the compassion and to sort of pick up the trashes and like, but we also take care of the place that we're in. And if you see trash, pick it up. And it was really interesting to kind of go through that exercise, then to now roll that out, right? That's like literally printed on the onboarding brochure for it. And remember, this isn't like a 20 person startup. It's like a 700 person ski resort with seasonal employees that are J1s that come in from Peru.

1:18:16And like, you're like, how do you most mimetically train a company value to somebody who's never read a corporate values book? And they're going to remember one sentence. One thing. Yeah. And now it's like, it's like a whole vernacular. We're like, we're all in these email threads where someone's like, Marissa, great job on being a big hearted champion when you did this. And it's like, it's cool to see people. So I share all that as in like, that's an example to me of like how over time you can actually use language to kind of scale trust and scale leadership. Because introducing that has already done huge wonders for the team.

1:18:50There's something too around, obviously, like some of this goes back to like the Jane Jacobs or Christopher Alexander stuff of like top down leadership and bottom up leadership. And inside of anything that isn't, and granted, I think people have talked about this. There are definitely areas of leadership where it should feel almost dictatorial. But to the extent you're doing any of the more bottom-up leadership and empowering people, it is one of the things that's been cool about the AI stuff is it feels like such a good metaphor for communication of just like now that everyone's very self-aware about prompting computers all the time, we prompt people too.

1:19:24Like big-hearted champions would take out the trash is a system prompt that you basically want running in 700 minds that, again, needs more specifics in different contexts, but is really, really powerful. In some sense, you've also played with scale in interesting ways. And whether it be, again, 700 people working on a mountain or a bunch of people in a Discord who all have different ideas of whatever this, is this a brand, is it a community, is it a coin? This type of thinking is really empowering. Because, by the way, every single person is going to have a slightly different interpretation of big-hearted champion or whatever, but it's a container to fill and also put themselves into, which I think is very cool.

1:20:02We have talked around him. Reed Hastings is a pretty notable person in the world who's written actually on leadership and is like, people know things about him. But I'm curious if there's anything that's either less obvious to the world or just that has really stood out to you about what makes him special and what, in particular, you have learned from him about leadership. yeah he's a real force of nature he's he's obsessed with building building things so that's that that that that one's become really interesting to watch he's so he covers so much ground you know i always joke like if it was a month earlier a month late he wouldn't have done powder it was just like like it's less about ski resorts it's less about skiing like he obviously loves like skiing but he's not it was really a like he moves to the world as identifying problems to solve that's like as fundamental as it is so on any given day powder mountain is his problem to solve for the day or it's or it's rwandan it's breaking up the telecoms monopoly and east congo is one thing he's been working on to netflix to you know he's just kind of moving from thing to thing and he likes to solve problems so that that kind of like globalist take is really really interesting Like he was he was he was pretty involved early on and like, you know, pushing the Democratic Party to get Biden to step down.

1:21:23Like he was he's very just when he sees problems, he likes to jump in and solve leadership styles or even just like things about leadership that you have learned implicitly or explicitly. Yeah, he's one of the best communicators I've I mean, I've ever worked with hands down. He is super, super explicit about what he's trying to communicate to you or to the team or to the company or to a group of people. And so what I mean by that is he'll often tell you when he's talking about a complex decision or a scenario, he'll often say, this is what success looks like in the outcome of this decision. And then he will, in equal amount of detail, talk about what failure looks like in that decision.

1:22:07And then sometimes he'll even talk about what the gray area in between looks like in detail. And so then when you leave that meeting. Here's a really clear map. He's like, this is failure, this is success, this is in between, to like seven people in a room. So you're like, there is no misunderstanding of what failure is. So let's make sure we get as far the fuck away from that and we get as close to success as possible. So like, I now have started to use that in most of my communication in, you know, to my teams and that like, it's super helpful to just be really, really explicit about, hey, I want to share, this is a concern I have, this is what I think success looks like, here's what I think failure looks like.

1:22:42And like, do we all do we all agree that these are the two options? And so what can we do to mitigate, you know, the sort of the latter? So I think can be concise sort of communication. And then I think he's he's he's taught me a lot about or what I've observed a lot about. He's such a good capitalist. capitalist and I say capitalist is in, he really understands pricing and economics. And so like his ability to sort of look at a macro industry, develop the business strategy without like, he's never written a business plan. He's almost an intuition. It's an intuition and understanding, oh, here's the market forces, here's the industry, here's how it's growing to then being like, cool, here's how we're going to arrive at pricing.

1:23:24He had a really great kind of saying where he was like, pricing, finding the right price is finding just that right amount where the consumer is willing to pay for it and taking them to the edge of pain. It's a capitalist. We're taking it to the edge of pain where they're willing to pay for it and they still have a high NPS score and they'll still come back. So he says the example to that is if you gave away the product for free, your NPS score would be perfect. So he's like, that's not, it's about pricing and it's about NPS. So then he's like, efficient pricing is about finding that perfect calibration.

1:23:59And I remember he told me this story right after we had this whole debate about raising prices for our season passes. And, you know, raising season pass prices in ski towns is always a lot of drama. And you're pricing at locals and it's filled with emotion. And you get all these comments and emails and letters about. So I remember, you know, I run marketing. So I was the guy essentially implementing and communicating the pricing change. And I was like so worked up about it. And he tells me this quote about like pricing. And then I remember thinking, like, you don't get it, blah, blah, blah. And then I was on the ski lift riding up one day with this old guy, and we changed our senior season pass pricing from, it used to be$80 a year, which shows how poorly designed it was, to the average industry season pass is like$1 ,400.

1:24:49So it used to be$80. We moved it up to$800. So it's still half of what the industry is, but we were like— But a 10X. But a 10X. and I was on the lift with this 70 plus guy. And I was like, he didn't know who I was. I wasn't wearing my uniform. And I was like, oh, like, how's it going? What do you think about powder? He was kind of grumbling. And he was like, well, they raised the prices of the season passes for me. And I'm a senior and it used to be 80 bucks. And I'm like, oh man, like, he was like really upset. And then I was like, I'm so sorry. Are you going to go, are you going to like renew?

1:25:18Are you going to go, you're probably going to go ski somewhere else, right? He was like, no, I renewed. Love powder mountain. And then he skied off. And I remember thinking like, that's real. It's a lot of tension, by the way. Yeah, that's the tension you're trying to seek. Or then if you can get someone like that to then renew every year and still love it because you found that right. You know, obviously you can't charge them$4 ,000. But it's like you find that right pricing equilibrium where the NPS score is still high, but they're willing to pay. And, you know, Netflix is sort of the king of that, of exploring$24.99 to$26.99.

1:25:46Like, where does that go? And by the way, what does price do? What does price change allow us to do more? Exactly. Obviously, some person might find this podcast and be like, oh, these guys suck. They're just trying to gouge me. But it's like, okay, we're trying to do something kind of, let's go back to the very top of the conversation of like culture and commerce together, any of these things, like how do you actually, it's a set of trade-offs, but Netflix has been able to do a lot in part because they raise prices. Correct. Yeah, it's fun to sit in that tension. And like even just going back to the other thing, like being able, I found that some of the wisest, most compelling people are just really good at holding ambiguity in gray areas.

1:26:22and like not needing to like rotate super hard to one conclusion really fast and they're able to just kind of sit with it. My last thing on Reid is there's an incredible quote in this New York Times profile on, I think that the title is, is that a James astrologist skied by? Where Reid says, Alex is the visionary and I'm the banker. What has it been like to have that kind of trust and empowerment from Mr. Hastings? Yeah, it's been really, it's been really, I have a lot of gratitude towards him and it's been really fulfilling. I think he's such an exceptional leader and that he's really not detail, like he's really not like micromanaging.

1:27:00And I truly feel like, you know, to an extent, like a partner working with him on it. And yeah, to see that sort of like public external validation is really rewarding and fulfilling. But yeah, I would say it's really, it's really, it's really a unique dynamic. And we both are teaching each other a lot. Obviously, he's teaching me so much about business and leadership and intuition and decision-making. And then to an extent, I'm teaching him more like implicit things around, like we're both going through this journey of discovering and building a place that we hopefully will spend time in forever and continue to sort of add memories to.

1:27:37So it's this, you know, it's funny. He just went on like a week-long silent meditation retreat. I was telling you the week all of Trump's tariff stuff were going off. So I was like, well, I wonder what he's thinking. I mean, obviously he had no contact with the outside world. But when he got back, we were catching up and I asked him, what was one thing you grew more conviction around while you were there? And what's one thing you grew less conviction around, whether it's personal or professional or whatever? And he was actually saying his main thing he grew more conviction around was he wanted to be even more involved in the artistic expression and the creation and learning about art and learning about adding the beauty of the place because that's sort of been effectively my role because I oversee like art architecture design urban planning the storytelling of it like I'm kind of the soft feel right side right and he's the like business finance strategy order operations and so he's actually like oh I want to learn more about the former which I thought was really inspiring as someone who doesn't you know I he wouldn't say he has like a ton of aesthetic preference you know he's just he's very he wears the same that stuff is also about in many ways about like just intimacy with it or like exposure to it it's intimacy exposure and i think it's i think what he probably realized is it's it will lead to a deeper connection of purpose yes he will he will be happier right with the investment of his time right it's not about the money for him it's about the time right when if in 10 years he gets to walk around with his family and be like oh i helped make that decision or i weighed in on that decision yeah or even here's why we made this yeah exactly exactly a couple questions about like career arc stuff to start.

1:29:14It's possible I have this wrong, but I believe you and I met while I was sitting in a golf cart waiting outside of an auditorium at USU to drive Mark Cuban across campus. And you talked me into letting you on the cart so you could talk to him about something while a flock of other students literally like ran behind us, which is an amazing Alex Ng story in part because it represents something that I've always been both admired and sort of been bewildered about you, which is you, like people love to talk about agency on the internet, but you are one of the most skilled people I've ever met at just like getting into rooms for lack of a more precise description, or maybe it's meeting exceptional people or just like finding the serendipity.

1:29:55Obviously the art and culture worlds I think are especially opaque in certain ways. How do you, you interviewed Elon while you were at USC. You've told me plenty of other stories about getting into strange places. How do you do this? Or what goes into that type of sort of like making weird doors open in the world? Firstly, that Mark Cuban story will be an infamous story for you. And I just have a feeling it'll keep coming back in our only age, like a fine wine. I like Cuban. Cuban's doing great. Yeah, no, but no, more so is that it's just funny because it shows both of our personalities. Like, you letting me get on the golf cart and me jumping on the golf cart.

1:30:41And then I do remember the kids chasing us. That was 10 years ago. Nine or 10 years ago? Yeah. Yeah, it's something I've always... Firstly, I get a fucking kick out of it. I love it. Like, back to smooth brain. Like, it's just fun. It's exhilarating. I love sneaking into places. It's just fun. It's like, you know, it's like, I don't know. I don't shoplift, but I imagine it would be like what it's like to steal a stick of gum. It's just like a little adrenaline kick to do it. But I think, what was your question? It's like, why, how do I do it? Yeah, what goes into it? Yeah, yeah, or explicitly like, I'm not asking how do you sneak into a party, but I'm kind of asking what makes you good at it, maybe is the better question.

1:31:26So I think back to the universe being this malleable, random constellation of chaos. Yes. I think humans aren't rational actors, right? We all, we make impulse or most, you know, whatever the whole saying of most of our decisions are driven by whatever the five core vices. Right. I think it's just understanding that, like, the universe is a call and a response mechanism where you can sort of bend things slightly in your way. The most extreme example of that would be Steve Jobs in reality distortion field. Yes. But it's the notion of like, most things in the universe aren't rational things. And if you approach things by understanding what motivates or drives a person, and you can kind of jab it where it hurts in a way that is like, it tickles that vice.

1:32:18I think it's sort of, the world can open up to you in really miraculous ways. And it's also not being afraid of failure, which to me is like the worst thing that happens is you just got to know, which is fine. and all of us are terrified of no we all are and i think so to me it's like actually you know what the simplest thing i don't think you're that afraid of no i think so when i say all of us i guess most people are afraid of no yeah and most people are also the other thing i see in this at least is they take the rules a little more seriously that there are a lot of things that people think are very serious rules that you have sort of internalized are like more like guided guided yes yes yes and and here's the here's what i'd say that i think is actually the clearest is i think it's just about being playful and it's about channeling your inner child and i think children don't know what is a rule or what is not a rule yes and maybe they're being mischievous maybe they're just being naive but i think retaining a childlike wonder with the world will i think allow you to fall in love faster and easier it It will allow you to get into, like meet people you wouldn't normally meet.

1:33:23It's like, it's just moving through the world with curiosity. And so it's like, if you're sitting on the subway and someone interests you just based on the way they look or what they're saying, it's like, just talk. It's like a child would just engage them. Yes. So to me, it's when you meet somebody in a childlike state that they feel seen by a child, that they then enter this childlike state and they're invited to play. And then they're way more open to engaging with you in that way. So to me, it's all about breaking rapport is sort of how I think about it, where it's like, how do you take the norm of like, we're two businessmen doing business?

1:33:55It's like, how can you break out of that? And like, you know, use the Elon example where like, yeah, in college, we I emailed him, and I broke the rapport and, and treated it with a childlike sense of communication, where I think I wrote something like, hey, Elon, I know the school's been trying to get you the business school has been trying to get you to do the commencement speech wouldn't it be really funny if you did ours instead and now if you think about elon and who he is in 2025 i didn't know this at the time i knew that he was sort of cavalier and i knew that he was obviously brilliant i didn't know he was like the meme lord that he is today right but it's sort of understanding how people tick i think there was the i was listening to um howard uh lubnik or whatever is his secretary of commerce and he was talking about the first time he met Elon and he was he was nervous for the meeting this was right when Trump was like oh you two you're gonna be commerce and you're gonna be doge and you need to meet and figure out a plan and Howard was like super nervous about how to um how to how to engage Elon and then when he showed up to the meeting he he said something about like you should change the like I think the street that Elon lived in was called like E Street or something and he was like you should change the name to be Meme Street.

1:35:12And like Elon just laughed for 20 minutes because he's psychotic. And then Elon immediately was like, we're going to be best friends. So I say that as in like, it's just understanding where somebody comes from. And so you can clearly tell Elon's on, he's brilliant. He's very controversial these days. But at the end of the day, I just view him as he's just sort of a misunderstood character. And why he likes - And everyone else is being very serious with him all the time. Exactly. And why he acts the way he does, I think it's immature and I don't think it's appropriate. And I think there's a lot of instances where it's actually offensive and bad for whatever, like the world.

1:35:47But I think in general, I understand him. I understand that he's been treated so seriously his whole life. And the ultimate, the most powerful man in the world, all he wants is childlike wonder and play. That's literally all he wants. It's channeled in a weird way. Totally. But all he wants is that, I think. Totally. And so back to your thing about how do you access whatever or how do you – To me, it's just moving through life with this sort of childlike wonder and discovery and then a couple other factors of just not taking things too seriously and enjoying the process. People are seeing you have fun.

1:36:19They want to have fun. Yes, it's an invitation. It's an invitation. That really feels like the right framing. I mentioned serendipity. We've talked about kind of our own nonlinear career paths over the years. And I relate to this. I think you've done a bunch of things that were like zags and that weren't like necessarily obvious that even people, if you would listen to a sort of like normal, serious people advising you to do the next thing, you haven't taken that path. One, do you see an arc or like you mentioned, even the Steve Jobs dot connecting only in reverse? like is there an arc and when it comes to maybe taking these taking the fwb opportunity or even the reed thing how have you found your ability to make these types of decisions or go with your gut like what what makes how do you know when when you're supposed to kind of take these weird detours yeah um i'm actually a horrible long-term planner so i honestly like i really i really really move just vis-a-vis intuition.

1:37:26And as I've gotten older, I've come to be better at understanding market opportunities about when does that intuition align with a good potential financial outcome, like a financial opportunity, if that's what I'm trying to index for. But I would say in general, I don't think I've, I only do things that I think are fun and fun to me equals steep learning curve, curiosity driven, in usually a new industry or a sector that is like, I just want to learn more about. And then most importantly is I'm a people person. So who do I get to work with? That's kind of, I did FWB because of Trevor. I wanted to work with him, right?

1:38:02I had zero crypto experience prior. And then the community of FWB was really interesting to me. Yeah, it was a new way to do what you do too, which is something. Same thing with Summit. Same thing now with, I don't think I would be working on Powder Mountain if it wasn't for Reed and the team he's built. And, you know, so I would say it's about, it's about intuition for me personally. and in terms of career arc yeah i'm a cute it's funny i'm accumulating a very random set of experiences but you nailed the through line in the very beginning which is it's just about people and bringing people together and about creating authentic experiences that fuel belonging so whether that next venture is in back into a social digital experience or whether that's into a hospitality thing like more real estate or hotels or restaurants or whether that's in media i don't I don't fully know, but I definitely feel like, you know, it'll always be the confluence of all of these different sort of sectors.

1:38:58I think you know yourself pretty well too, which makes it easier to know is this, even if it's weird on the surface or the, the aesthetic of it is different. The kernel of it is something that, you know, you can connect to. I have a few kind of miscellaneous questions as we wrap up. One, what did you learn from, what do you learn? What did you learn from or if not a lesson what did you enjoy about doing student radio at USC well I mean to quite obviously but it was my first foray it was a really it was my first foray into music and I say music as in like I really got to hone and develop that it was the first rabbit hole I took of like whoa music is way more than just whatever top 40 and it was just like discovering ambient music, discovering world music and discover, like it was this like process of discovery.

1:39:50Like, I think life is just actually about refining taste and, and, and not to be melodramatic, Bossart and I were talking about this, but like, I think the ultimate point of life, this is my point of view. It's obviously not, it's incredibly privileged. My ultimate goal in life is to just keep refining taste. The, the, the process and journey of finding what you like and don't like is super interesting to me. Furniture, art, music, food. And so obviously, like I said, you have to be incredibly privileged to have the opportunity to actually have the means to explore that. So it's not like everyone should do that, but it's mostly in the like, I think it's one of the greatest pleasures in life.

1:40:28And then finding another human where you are on that safe wavelength of that taste is incredibly special. It's like when someone comes over and sees a book that they also, it's like we're both reading the same esoteric Rob Erwin book that's crazy. yeah and it's amazing yeah so uh so i think to me the radio was the first experience of like one field music the process of taste i always shout out this girl anya that i met i was a freshman she was a senior she asked me when i the first day i was in the radio station she's like what do you listen to and i was like i don't know like i was like always the scariest question to get asked yeah and then she was like wait you've never heard of you've never heard of 410 nicolas jarro you've never heard of whatever whatever i was like no and she was like oh let me make you up She's like, let me make you a playlist.

1:41:09Here's an invitation. So she was like, give me a USB drive and I'll load 50 songs under it every week. And then you listen to it and you tell me what you like and you don't like. And I remember hearing like, this is because I didn't have, like I grew up in a pretty sheltered environment, but I didn't really listen to music before that. But it was like the first time I heard Tom York. It was the first time I heard the Beatles. It was the first time I heard like Fleetwood Mac and Bruce Springsteen to like crazy weird ambient music to, you know, it was Fela Kuti and just like, like Afro. it was like it was all of it all in one playlist and i remember i kept like going back i was like i like this i don't like this i like this and then by the end of it i was like all of a sudden like obsessed with collecting vinyl and so to me that was like one of the earliest experiences of like taste developing taste and and and reframe developing my taste like knowing what i liked and now i'm doing that through art again and now i'm doing that through architecture and the other side of that is curation like the the personal side is taste and what i would argue you've done your whole career as you've said hey i've i've gone and rubbed up against all these things and here are the things that i care about and maybe you do too totally i uh my my last interview with with nabeel we talked a lot about sort of like whether or not you even get to choose the things you care about but back to maybe your idea of like an another frame of of the of the of the taste framing would just be like yeah like life is about leaning more into the things that you care about and you know there probably aren't that many maybe there are like really deep rabbit holes or maybe there are finding new adjacencies of it.

1:42:35But I think that's a power. And I think a lot of people end up just sort of chasing the things they think they're supposed to. Totally. And I think life is about chasing the things that just naturally feel you. And if you apply that, you will find a commercial way to do it if you are trying to. But just fundamentally, I think, start with the things you're most interested in. Why do you think music is so influential in terms of creating great events and spaces? I mean, in some ways, you've spent a lot of time bringing art into spaces to create events around them broadly. But music, more than almost any, overwhelmingly, music is the type of art we pair with events and spaces.

1:43:17I think it's the most immersive. It's the most, like, it's the most, like, transcendental. Like, I think it's quite hard to look at a painting and fully lose yourself in it. It has happened, and to me, great art is about living with it, but it's not quite like the most peak music experience will always overcome or will always crest over the most peak art experience, I think. Well, music's also lived with life. Yeah. I think maybe that's part of it is that an art or even a film, I love film, but film is about I'm going to pay attention to this and this alone, and music is paired with life. Yeah.

1:44:00maybe it's more anthropomorphic in that it's like it's a voice it's human it's like your mother singing to you as a child i don't know right why do you enjoy photography photography um you take a lot i you don't do that much capital at like p photography although you do some but you just take a lot of photos you take a lot of photos of the people in your life the people you love like yeah you have an unseriousness about photos that maybe everyone has but is there something about that medium that you like to capture?

1:44:34One of the first things I remember on your website was just a page dedicated to photos you've taken over the years. And I think that's probably still on there somewhere. Yeah, I guess I haven't changed that in a while. I think photos are a great way to just get a sense of who someone is because obviously it's the things that they feel attracted to. I like photos, photography, because it's a moment in time that will never be created again. I don't, I don't, I like, I'm definitely not a capital P photographer. I don't ever stage photo. Like I don't ever like shoot things where I set it up as a photo shoot.

1:45:08I like things that are more like whatever in situ and that it's just happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love party photography. I love travel photography. I love animals. I love - You're documenting. Yeah, it's just a moment of like, I'm seeing this thing and I see beauty in it. So I want to capture it, which is why i pretty much only really shoot in film because it's i don't have to think about it i just click it and i develop it sometimes five months later and i forget and it's a surprise it's like a treat yeah it's a memory play thing too totally so it's less about i'm definitely not the like dslr and like editing it i don't edit i don't think i've ever edited a single photo i've just like take it and i upload it if i like it so it's more so just capturing a moment in time um which is why i've always loved party photography it's just like wow that was just like something that happened in that moment yes very and it'll never happen again yes ever yes is what always gives me the goosebumps any recollections you talked a little bit about skiing i i grew up i started skiing when i was probably two although you've skied much more than i have in the last decade any things you remember about to where you get to be a beginner in such a dramatic way yeah learning to ski and then having that become such a significant part of your life as an adult anythings that come to mind about that process especially early on or being a beginner with it i'm actually going i i i was reflecting on how i love the beginning of things and steep learning curves so i actually am right now getting scuba certified because i was like wanting to learn about it i did that in a pool when i was like 12 and yeah never ended up doing it yeah i'm taking the online courses right now i'm like oh my god this is so intense and i'm Like it's like back in school.

1:46:47Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm in the accurate. I'm very in the real moment of like learning something new again. But skiing specifically. Yeah, I just remember how frustrating it was in the beginning. So it's so painful. It's so expensive. It's so you're renting all this gear. Why did you keep doing it? There was a there was an extent of like I had to because I was working. Yeah. But I would say after like the 15th time I skied, it just like clicked. And 15 is a lot of times to do an expensive activity that you don't like. That's how privileged. Yeah, 100%. There's a lesson there, I think. 100%. And now it's probably one of my top favorite things to do in the world.

1:47:28And it's such a fun way to think about, holy crap, I just like traverse this whole mountain on these two pairs of sticks. I wonder how many things I've tried. 15 times? Well, no, no, no, that I have tried like three times. They give it up? Yeah, what 15 would? But I'm being dramatic. It wasn't like every 15 was. No, I get it. And our mutual friend Ava, I've talked to her about this. Maybe she wrote about this idea that flow and things that feel great and fun and easy are great. But you actually have to kind of trudge through the mud sometimes. Totally. Like writing doesn't feel good for a while.

1:48:02Totally. And then you go through other troughs. And yeah, I think that maybe one of the lessons there is that forcing functions are good. sometimes good or good my final question is we talked a little bit about cities you lived in new york for a while you've lived a lot in utah but you currently live in los angeles and it's more or less where you're from la is a place that i think a lot of people have a complicated relationship with or even explicitly visited and like that place sucks it's a complicated place and it's like of all of the cities at least i've been to been in in the world it's the most its own thing.

1:48:37And so I'm curious, maybe one prompt would be that if you were the mayor, but it doesn't have to be that explicit. What would you want to do to make LA richer or more of itself in a way that, assuming this is probably your home for the next 20, 30 years, you're a person who's obsessed with people in spaces and cities and design. It's an open-ended question but i'd be curious if if there's anything that comes to mind about ways that you would want to help this place lean into itself more public space more public parks la needs more premium needs more public spaces where those public spaces actually have a stratification of premium to democratic access offerings so i think like you know what makes central park so amazing is like it's free but it's also next to like the highest price real estate in the in the world so i think And then there's food and amenities and experiences there.

1:49:35So I think finding a way where if LA could create more outdoor amenity-driven experiences out here. Sort of like Washington Square, high and low. Yeah, totally. Like if you could create like, let's say LA is about the beaches. If you could incentivize private development to come in and create really nice high-end experiences by the beach. But then there's public areas. How do you create more like interesting places to hang out? because right now the issue with LA is nobody hangs out in any public places all the places to be are like restaurants that are hard to make reservations to or people's homes it's very home driven yeah which is why everyone who usually visits for the first time has a negative experience because you're in the car a lot yes you don't get invited anywhere you're like this sucks and it's like LA has a lot of layers it's not like New York where it's like where's the iconic New York right walk up you know whatever the street and in the park and you know easy to drop it you can You can parachute it and you can get it.

1:50:27Right? Yes. It's highly legible versus here is not legible. It's kind of like the most legible thing of LA is the Hollywood sign in Venice Beach. So it's like, even though the best parts about LA are Highland Park, Silver Lake, Echo Park, it's the downtown local Latino community and the food options there. It's all the places Jonathan Gold ate. It's like, those are the parts of LA and there's obviously way more Chinatown, Little Tokyo, you know that that make la la but it takes time to understand it yes so in a way i actually think la is a kind of a has a deeper experience and that has also back to your earlier comment like has lots of randomness like it has lots of yeah i um well it's i think you're someone who's who's good at working with the illegible and and enriching it so maybe that maybe some long but more public parks that's the starting point theory alex thank you thank you man this was so fun.

1:51:24Cool. Hey, before I leave you, if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a rating and subscribe on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. You can also find full transcripts on my website at jacksondoll.com slash dialectic. And obviously everything's linked in the description. If you have notes, feedback, or guest ideas, you can email me at pod, P-O-D, at jacksondoll.com. See you next time.