34: Ryo Lu - It's All the Same Thing

32:13To me, it's almost like, because software is almost like a live form. It's like a run. It can mutate. It changes itself. you don't have to be like so opinionated like your opinion is actually taking the stance of I don't have too much opinion but you always make things start really simple and then you let people play with it you let people discover what they want or the way to to do things. What is their way to do things? That's not my way. Like I don't want to force my, like my way of thinking where this is how you do it. One, two, three, onto you. I just kind of give you like pathways and elevators and the tools to do the thing you want.

33:14Yeah, you have a line somewhere you say, no point solutions, always spectrums. which I think captures that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, fundamentally, all of these tools are the same things. So if you're okay with that, then you don't have to really pick, like, do I want to do this cursor for salespeople or a cursor for coding? It might be the same thing. I wanna talk about that kind of process of making and you started to get out a little bit, you have this metaphor of sort of like sculpting or finding what's in the stone that is really powerful. That's not totally intuitive for how people think about creating.

33:59You say there's a quiet, almost mystical art to starting with something so unrefined that you're unsure if it's mud or marble and patiently revealing its shape until others recognize its beauty. In the end, they'll say, of course, it's so obvious. Yes. Why can't greatness be, why must it be emergent?

34:22Because you haven't seen enough, you haven't tried enough. You think, ah, this first idea I have is perfect. And you throw it out there and then you realize, hmm, maybe only I think like that. Or maybe people like it, but they don't really understand the words or the nuance in there. Then you need to like keep tweaking and keep getting input. It's like, you never start with something that's like the ultimate answer. You always start with shit and then you make it better and better. Is that the case for every medium? I think so. like um like even when you're painting yeah you start with like the pencil sketches and then you layer on top like the paint or like you're sculpting you start with just like a blob of clay and you're like making the high level like shapes good enough and then i start like working on the details it's the same thing like you never you never get the first shot right.

35:36Even more true with like AI. Yeah. But with AI is like, we're like, say with custom composer one, because it's so fast. It's like, it's a different way to do things now. Like you you're building as you're seeing things as you're thinking, right. And as you're designing, and it's all together. Yeah, I wonder, like, you, you referred to software earlier as is almost like an organism. And maybe that's something that's true about software inherently, but it feels especially true with AI now. Yeah. And one of the things you said to me when we met, you talked about sort of how you used to work being much more like painting or drawing, and now it feeling much more sculpting or finding something new as stone.

36:23I don't know that that way of thinking is intuitive to people, even people who make software. And so maybe one question I'd have would be like, have you started to think about it in a fundamentally different way with ai or is this actually just a continuation i think it's almost like going backwards it's like i started building things myself and designing everything a lot of times i did not use like pixel tools i just coded it and then um i became like a professional product designer yeah capital d design yeah and then oh interesting now i just make mocks and fancy animated prototypes and then i would drop that mock into my pms prd and i'll wait for things to happen and things don't happen

37:19um and then now it's like going backwards meaning like i have an idea i'll just prototype it out like a kid like a kid with a piece of glass oh yeah or oh there's a bug okay I'll just like make a screenshot and then circle the thing ah add cursor fix this and it'll get fixed it's like instead of waiting instead of getting stuck in pictures or words you actually make the thing where you use software or use code as a tool to communicate your ideas better and because we're software makers the best tool is code there's a i interviewed early on i interviewed a couple of designers like industrial designers physical designers sayway and taylor and one of the things that they feel really strongly about is like they hate renders now it's like make make the prototype oh yeah and i almost feel like this is the digital version of that it's like get it down in the metal exact code exactly you have to play with the material like our material as software makers is never the pixels it is the code itself that renders the pixels yeah yeah you have a line i love you say uh but it existed and because it existed it could be improved which so captures the like power of working with actual material Mm-hmm.

38:49I do wonder, like, you, when we were first talking, you said, I use Figma when I want to go into my old way of thinking. Yeah. Which obviously relates to what you just said. I'm curious today, like, and maybe part of it is that you're designing Cursor, which is especially conducive to, it's less about the pixels already. Mm-hmm. But when do you find yourself sort of like tempted towards the old way of thinking? And like, is it a yo-yo? Is it a event? Like, will you be using Figma at all in a year? Oh, yeah. It's like, they're just tools. And like, sometimes we think in words. Sometimes we think in pictures.

39:35On podcasts, we definitely think in words. Yeah. Or like making videos too. Some people do that. Yeah. or like slides or whatever like those are just you know different artifacts or like forms to help us think and i i think like i don't want to take them away like different people have their performed preferred form to think maybe some people are more like linear they just write text yeah um i like bullets i i think i got the disease from notion it's like like all i do now is like i go go out and then i walk i have ideas i'll open notion doc and i put in a list

40:33and then once I'm done with my walk I'll go go back maybe now draw some pictures then maybe I'll do Figma because it's so like because I've been doing this for so long it's like water to me like I don't I don't think yeah when I make more artboards or when I do the Figma like shortcuts so when they change shortcuts or like they move around my things I get mad they keep doing it I saw you were really mad that they had changed the checkbox oh for Notion the to-do box oh yeah that's for another thing that's more for like it's like I feel like like every piece of software is almost like a person it has a vibe it has like a history it has some character essence like you don't want to lose that yeah you don't want to water everything down to like like border radius for pixels.

41:31Like sometimes it's good to keep that. Keep a lineage and keep a thing that's maybe a little weird, but it's so like characteristic. Yeah. On the note of sort of your thinking time, and you talked about thinking and using different tools, you're thinking using Figma. You've talked about your walking and like the value of this sort of like idle time, and the space between thinking time isn't wasted time. Are you, and maybe this is running against what you just said about it feeling like water, but are those like different modes? Like when you, watching you use cursor, at least on your phone, when you're hanging out, it didn't seem like you were doing very much thinking.

42:17You were just like, you were just throwing like paint at the canvas. Right. And then when you write about your walks or like that, that feels like a very structured. Is that maybe a template for how? That's more for the longer term things. Ah. Yeah. We're like vague ideas, ambiguous. Dreaming. We're like, ah, maybe we should do this. I'm not sure. Maybe we should do it this way. What are the components in there? How do I break it down? What are the things people care about? Whereas when you're using Figma, you're using Cursor, you're... Those are more for maybe like Figma.

42:55there's still some difficulty where it just takes more time to say build a really crazy prototype in code so if you want to just communicate ideas into the space really quickly draw some pictures, that's fine and then when the thing gets to the state where I think I know what it is I want to figure out how they fit together, how they work together, what are the, you know, especially with like building AI stuff, there's like so many, like both like procedural and like non-deterministic things that you need to think about. It is really like really hard to simulate in Figma or like in static pictures.

43:45Yeah, and you're not with the material. You're not up close to the material. Like you actually need to glue it up and then see how they fit together. See how the states transition. If I get this like error, what happens? Or if the return gets too long, what happens? Dot, dot, dot. Like you'd never get that in Figma. I want to talk a little bit about real OS, both because I know you're very obsessed with it. And it does feel like the perfect embodiment of this sort of working with clay. um and i i think it's i would strongly encourage people listening or watching to go to poke around with it um as i understand it real i started as a soundboard app you made for your friends when you were leaving notion and it sort of feels like it's this just infinite thread you keep pulling or this piece of clay you just kind of keep turning over in your hand yeah um for people's content i we when we first met you had your phone out and you were like we were just talking and you were literally making apps as we sat there and talked what have you learned about making things and maybe even about yourself from this crazy project i learned that oh shit i can do all of this i think that's the biggest thing and it's like

45:13it's all like little ideas piling up on each other um you start with like something simple small um and you just keep building and building and building and building and see it see it grow and then when it grows to like a size where it's like you know there's some constraints i actually started the thing in v0 not cursor like the soundboard thing yeah yeah yeah um like i ran into some like errors that i'm like i need to do it in cursor and you use cursor much prior to that not really i tried three times i turned three times oh interesting why yeah it's like the first time it was like oh cool new new code editor let me try it out uh i typed some lines it completes like five lines of code instead of one line of code versus like github copilot then i turn because you felt like it was trying to do too much no it's like it's just completing code oh with more lines yeah and then second time it was the chat yeah it's like chat gpt next to your code yeah it can read the code it can answer some questions but i can't do much so i tried and then the third time it was like discovering the agent this is post using v0 or pre after okay it's like i needed some tool that can let me do anything then I found Cursor and I'm like hooked yeah and you start from like simple things and then you just ask some maybe a little crazier idea and then you see it getting built and so now with PlanMo you actually see how the models think and you can change.

47:20You can be part of every step that is still your clay. But it's like the model now handles all the parts that I don't really care about. I actually studied computer science because I love computers and software. But I hated writing code or all the algorithms and stuff we learned that's kind of useless. And what I care more about is like, like, what are the ideas? How do people, you know, feel? How quickly can I make this thing I thought of? Exactly. It's like the thing, the idea, the concepts, I want to play with the concepts. You mentioned it like real OS. it doesn't really seem like something like that could be should be able to be built by just throwing more paint at the canvas like it feels like the type of thing that should have needed to be more planned there is a lot of things that say like it's not just throwing okay so it's almost like it's a constant throwing things and cleaning up shit okay same it also happens there in real s what is the cleaning up that's that's what we're not seeing i think yeah you don't see that but you you can see in my commit logs.

48:40The maintenance. Yeah, it's like the more things you add, the more things you realize, it's the same thing that I just talked like earlier. It's like, all these apps need say some AI endpoint and some auth and like they need to store their states. They need to write or read into the file system. da da da da da da like maybe I started you know doing the file system part from the text edit app but then now I want you know all the other ones that that can use the same ideas

49:23to use the thing then I need to kind of abstract the system like put that part out or unify some you know, state management things. And then you need to kind of refactor your original things, even though maybe to the user, it looks exactly the same. That part of it though, I think is where like, for lack of more precise language, people get stuck. Yeah. It's like, again, I watched you use cursor. It's like, you're literally, it's like, you're just nudging the model. And your prompts are not, yeah, it's that demeanor for the listeners, you're just poking it. It's not these long specs. I'm watching you just be like, can you come up with an app idea?

50:10Your language is really casual. And so I think to the average person using V0 or the person who tries cursor and is churning, I think we'll talk about it later. You're very clearly focused with cursor on building for the hardcore user. But for someone who has somewhat of a computer science background, hadn't written a lot of code, maybe what I wonder about is like in the poking process, you're getting more invested that you care enough to do the hard maintenance part. Oh yeah. I learned a lot by building real us like before, even like since I became a professional product designer, I would have little projects I do on the side.

50:56Like the first few years I kept doing those. and then i got busier or something and then i stopped and then every time i tried to go back oh shit i need to learn like react 18 and tell when css whatever all of this like new things and then it takes a long time i have to read all the docs i need to understand how people do things now um but it's like now with the agent you don't have to do that but you're still doing that it's like the agent maybe helps you do the research it comes up with some ha here are how people do it now and then maybe gives you some alternative options maybe you know certain things you also don't know certain things but the agent can kind of help you find your way and then you can say ah now just do this it would write the code you can look at the code still you can learn from its output but how things work.

52:00You're getting deeper into the complexity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Intentionally or otherwise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like just by reading, like a lot of users say this too, it's like they love reading how the models think. They actually want to expand everything and then they want to look at all the output because it helps them understand and what the model is doing, gain trust from it and learn, especially when they're starting to code. Yeah, it might be a strange comparison, but somebody I interviewed, he was talking about reading with his seven or eight year old daughter and how reading with her, these books that were actually far beyond her sort of ability level, it pulled her in.

52:49And now she's reading whatever. I don't know if she's reading Anna Kronin out, but like she's reading well beyond her level and there is something about sort of like being exposed to someone else's thinking. Yeah. Even if it's GPT-5 codex or Composer or whatever. Yeah. It's like most of the, as you said, it's like most of the prompts that I did in ReOS is like just really short, simple things. Yeah. It's like theoretically we are ready. Like you can actually build a lot of things and you just vibe. but there is like, you know, I'm a little cheating too because I know things before. So I know like when the AI gets stuck, how to like get it unstuck.

53:34Or like as I play more, it's like my full-time job is to play with all these models and use cursor. So I kind of develop like some intuition on how these say different models behave as i make it yeah or like what are their limits maybe this one's faster this one's slower this one's smarter at certain things um that a lot of people like they don't know they don't really know what to do yet so that helps me like put this back to the tool. On that last note, when is it your job, or maybe a better way of asking, when is it Cursor's job to try to solve those things versus the model's improvements job to solve those things?

54:35I think it's both. The models can kind of raise in capabilities or like say, now the models are getting better at say using terminal commands, clicking around in the browser stuff like that as they get better you still need a way to unlock those capabilities so you need to fit them back to the tool itself package them up make them just really obvious so people can just play with them they don't have to think too much like how do I I don't know trigger it or get it out or use this crazy like script or MCP thing to do something yeah um like you start simplifying making things that are possible more obvious yeah for more people ah that's an interesting way of thinking about it yeah making things more obvious making the next step more obvious yeah it's like you're constantly simplifying unifying figuring out like uh now that we i have this and this and this now how do i like clean it up even better it feels like it relates a little bit to the like readiness thing we talked about i talked about earlier which is like you feel like maybe the model's job is the technical readiness and your job at cursor is the cognitive readiness yes like again humans are kind of we're like kind of single threaded you know we've been trying a lot with like multi-agent or like parallelization of like agents yeah and like nobody has really solved it yet because most people are still thinking about now like let's just give you 15 agents here you go 15 agents are like have done all these changes like 2 000 lines of changes it's like all horsepower no steering wheel yeah yeah so we need to like figure out you know these like i'm not even sure if there will be new patterns but it's like better framings or packaging or interfaces for people to just get out get utility out of these things um without breaking their minds or like changing too much or feeling overwhelmed yeah yeah yeah you um You've obviously worked on a lot of different types of systems and you're sort of drawn to almost like this container type tool or product or something.

57:36And certainly at least with cursor and notion, you have a line where you say systems thinking is essential because the only path to building products that scale, not just technically, but cognitively along the lines of what we were just saying. yeah um what are the is the goal when you're designing a tool like that um to allow the user to stay as single threaded as possible and like like is that essentially what you're designing for no no well it's like it's up to you ah um it's like you need to design the zero state the one state and the end state for everything and then see how they melt together.

58:17This is the simplicity and complexity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when you have end times, end times, then it'll be kind of crazy. But if you really want to be there, so be it. Yeah, you should meet the user where they're at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if you are actually like someone, I don't know, you have ADHD or something, like you want like eight different windows, all like running, so be it. Yeah. Yeah. Like the average person probably wants, right. Maybe average people just want one main thread. And then it's like how we're thinking right now is like, instead of having you, like, you need to review changes from these 15 different agents.

58:54Maybe we help you like kind of cluster them a little bit, organize them semantically. Maybe you, instead of talking to each of them separately, you just talk to one person or like one agent. And then it's almost like your PM or like your assistant. and then it's going to figure out, ah, these guys are blocked. Do you want to approve the terminal command? Ah, these changes, I think they're pretty good. This is bad. You should look at it. There's a very small subset of users want StarCraft. Most people want Candy Crush. Right. It's actually like, I'm fine with both. Yeah. We can actually do both, I don't know, a TikTok and a StarCraft.

59:36Because of AI. Yeah. There's an idea that I think is really interesting that I think is connected here, which is about slack in systems. You say the best systems have slack in them. Redundancy isn't always waste. It's optionality. Multiple paths mean you can explore without breaking everything. The core remains simple. While layering itself into more complex permutations, controlled chaos means you're stable enough to not collapse but loose enough to evolve. Mm-hmm. I think that's such a powerful metaphor. And maybe Slack is that like willingness to go as complex as I want to. Yeah, I wonder about like, somewhere else you talk about that sort of chaos and order together.

1:00:20It's like you let diversions happen and you let things evolve. It's like evolution. It's like nature is constantly like making more, you know, permutations of the same thing a little different. See which one works better. How do you give a tool more slack? It's... What does it mean to add slack to cursor? Right, it's like, it's a little complicated, but also it's like, sometimes you just kind of, you know, all designers were like kind of perfectionists. we want like things to be exactly what we wanted. But sometimes you just allow this ugly thing to pop up or this random button someone else added.

1:01:15And then I kind of keep a blind eye on it. And you let it simmer a little bit. You let people play with it, more being like our internal group of people. and then as you do that or like maybe people you know through the first bucket of paint and then now that it's there you can see it you can play with it you can think about it more understand it better there's a sort of roping off the canvas yeah then it's like ah now I know how this thing fits with the other things or like, ah, this thing is actually like a start of something much bigger. Then it's almost like this constant, you know, chaos convergence thing.

1:02:10And it gets into like an equilibrium and then you want that thing to be in like almost at the edge of like the maximum chaos you can allow for the thing. Your job as a designer is almost - You're trying to help people like, here is the line, don't cross it. Yeah. And then you're also helping people bring this reducing entropy. Just tame it a little bit back. Or like, you should talk together and then make this thing actually the same thing. Or like, you're making a new thing? Cool. Think about these four things that we have. And that's it. I'll just let them think about how does this new thing relates to the four things?

1:02:58And then ideally they come back with a good answer. You're almost like, you're like the game maker or you're like, you're the agent of evolution that's sort of like setting the rules of a little bit of what is tolerated, but critically you're not snuffing things out too early. Yeah. And it's like, you're mostly like an observer or like... Like I'm not dictating how things should happen. I just tell you like, uh, given all the things I know, here's probably how we do it. And this is also maybe why it seems like you're very attuned to not just the different ideas for cursor inside of the company, but all over, like all over Twitter, different stakeholders, students, whatever.

1:03:47because you're almost trying to like broaden the aperture of what is allowed in right because fundamentally it is the same thing all the vibe coding tools cursor all the cli agents it's all the same thing but only like cursor kind of tries to bridge all of them and like i try to give people like their ideal form and i think like one big like a big reason cursor got popular is because it looks exactly like vs code at least before but as we kind of noticed like people change their patterns of usage people kind of moved from like manual coding at like reviewing every line to do more agents yeah you have to move with them then we just flip right like our defaults change as the world moves and as the product evolves but fundamentally it's still the same thing what is cursor hmm obviously cursor is a plugin or a skin of vs code on some no not just that of course of course not just that and it's changing every day like um again at least when we spoke first like you talked about cursor like it like at least the way you seem to relate to cursor is almost like it's your little butler that just does things for you it's your hand um and we talked about code being the universal language, like in many ways, it almost feels like cursor is just this medium to work with code with a computer.

1:05:33And so I'm kind of asking about what cursor will be when I ask what cursor is like, do you have a conceptual, do you have a metaphor you like it is a tool, but it's sort of this more, is it just the agent? I see it as just like, we, we started from like one slice of like making software, which is you're just actively coding when you're sitting on the computer. We put an AI next to it so that I can help you write the code. And now it's like, like I want Cursor to be, it's like one place where you can do everything about making software. And that is not just writing code. And it's not just the developers.

1:06:22There is like the PMs thinking about what to do, how to measure things, aggregate all the data, synthesize it, figure out like what are the problems to fix, breaking it down into tasks. There is the designer, maybe they're trying to kind of you know explore in in 2d space higher level abstractions. There's the engineers writing the code but also they need to review, they need to test whether it worked. Once you put it out, you need to gather feedback and input from the market and people using it. All of this is making software, especially in a team or a company. And now people's workflows and tools and the metaphors they use, the artifacts are all scattered and disjoint.

1:07:24Yes. Whereas I think cursor can actually help everyone put everything together again. And then using the agent as the same agent to help you translate between, say, your form of thinking, your preferred artifact, into the code itself. Then it's almost like anyone who wants to build software or any team, they can just be closer together yeah and then the agent kind of helps them it's like solving a lot of the issues that we have today that were kind of created by all the tools that that we've made in the last yeah we just need one more tool you need you need a thing that kind of melds them fully what about cursor shape though yeah every people have been trying to build the final tool forever.

1:08:18Right. What about cursor's shape makes it what you're describing theoretically possible? Acknowledging you're still currently serving mainly devs. Yeah, I think it's like people joke about cursor is like a fork of VS Code and it's just code editor. But if you look at VS Code deeply, there's actually really good low-level primitives. For example, in VS Code, there's a concept of editors like you can open different files and different kinds of editors some of them might be looking like you know the code editor maybe there's like a diff viewer maybe there's like a markdown preview maybe there's a browser like just having this allows me to just present different things to people differently even though you know underneath it's still the same code is that because it works with files or yeah yeah yeah so that's another thing it's like in vs code there's a concept of workspace which is just like folders and files maybe they're tied to a repo it's like a lot of these low-level ideas again it's like they don't have to change and i don't intend to change them though like i don't know if we will ever detach from vs code at some points maybe once we kind of you know go fully agent yeah um or at least a lot of the people using yeah exactly right but i think it's still like like the challenge for me is to come up with a way to so you're tying all of these different workflows and people's preferences together into one thing and you're trying to come up with like different reconfigurations of that thing.

1:10:08How they transition between these states for these different people, what do they each see by default? How do they like customize it? How do they actually talk together? That's a really complex problem. How do we move from like cursor from like a single player thing to like a multiplayer thing? Not sure. Your work cut out for you. Yeah. on the note of like literally using cursor we talked about the way you kind of poke it at least when you're using real os yeah um you had given me like your advice was like treat it as someone who's like a little dumb yeah composing things it's seen before don't expect to come up with full components you shared a list of 12 rules or tips for using cursor back in april yeah um so those are almost like two slice time stamps of of advice around cursor like uh one of those i think that stood out to me is if the code is wrong, just write it yourself.

1:11:02Cursor learns faster from edits than explanations. Obviously, that works for someone with a coding ability, not without a coding ability. How often is advice like this changing? Oh, yeah, it changed a lot. I would say a lot of the things I said in April don't apply. For example, the agents now are so good at finding stuff that you don't have to say like at the exact file anymore back then it was like if you don't include the right context the agent will just come up with something random or it will make some mistake what is the what is the is there anything that stands out as long as you've been working on cursor that has been um true consistently or even like the type of person who consistently remains good at...

1:11:53Like, what is staying the same, I guess, is what I'm asking. Not much. Not much. Yeah. You got to be surfing the new wave. Yeah. Things are constantly changing. Even the things that appear the same might be replaced under the hood. That's both exciting, but also, back to the... You were talking about, I don't know, it was Notion or something else, like you have a tool you're used to, and they change a little... Jeffrey Litt has this metaphor. They change your chef knives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hard. Yeah, I guess there are things that don't change. Say, the agent. It used to be like, you know, before I joined Cursor, there were like five things.

1:12:33Like there was command K, tab, chat, composer, composer agent. The first thing I did was to merge the agent. So chat, composer, composer agent became agent with more specific modes if you want, more specific behaviors. And then the agent, the idea is they're all the same. They're just like applied configurations on top of the agent. Maybe for this agent, it has some custom prompts. It has the specific model set to it. Maybe it has some tools that it can use or cannot. That's it. And you give it a name.

1:13:15And then these agents all operate on different models. Those don't change. They need context that don't change. And then you need to show something with the editors that don't change. But all of these things are changing. Yeah, it's like all the things inside are changing. I guess your bet is that somebody's - How they know that are changing. Right. So if your bet too, is that if somebody is playing with the clay, they're okay with change because they are living with the material in a way that... You have to. Or like, I think, like in my career as a professional product designer, the thing I hate the most is like, like people want the design to be final.

1:13:59Where's the final version of this mock? If you don't have it, I won't start building it. Like that doesn't make sense. Because the first mock is never right. like you have to keep building it like now it's almost like the reverse happens at cursor which is kind of chaotic but I'm actually okay with it it's like our engineers were like some of our like enterprise PMs they start like vibe coding and then some weird patterns emerge or then you need to clean it up again you need to like wrangle it back and then now it's like because AI is really good at composing parts, I'm actually thinking we need to build bricks, really good bricks.

1:14:48It's like from all the things that we have that kind of suck all the patterns, the core bricks. This is something that seems like you guys did a really good job at Notion, which is pretty principled about what the bricks were going to be. Yeah. Notion did it more on the conceptual level. oh you mean like tangible feature bricks almost or like i don't know it's like low level components up to like patterns that people can just reuse yeah that are not just you know every dialogue is different or list view is different you you um like you start helping people create these patterns that just work and just fit together that both humans and agents can, you know, make things a little better by not reinventing the wheels every time.

1:15:44Because the agents, when they're like lacking guidance, they have a tendency to do that. We talked a bit about like, I think you're clearly designing for hardcore users, even if people are vibe coding with cursor like maybe the lines are thinning there was I think a line from you somewhere that I found where you or maybe I made this up but I think you talked about like designing for power like to give the user power what does that look like maybe in the context of cursor or more broadly yeah I think a lot of people so I don't see your users as like they're dumb, they're not, they can't figure things out they don't have to be like babysitted they can it's like I want to make things the simplest that you can when you start but as you go you get all the you know depth that you want um like as a beginner you get the same tools as what the pros use just maybe packed a little differently.

1:16:54Yeah. Um, you don't have 18, you don't see everything yet. But maybe this, this thing that you get can do like 80 90 % of what you want it. Maybe on the other side, like, currently, there's I think most people's, my intuition would be that most engineers relationship is like, there's five coding, and then there's real engineering. Obviously, that's, it's the same thing. challenged yeah what is how did what does it look like to design for power and for serious hardcore users on the like vibe coding dimension ah and part of that is conceptual right because it's like they have to be willing to say i'm gonna i'm gonna give up the wheel or not the wheel maybe but i'm gonna let the engine be yeah yeah we do like little nudges and we change our defaults sometimes and i think those are probably the most powerful tools that you can do as a product or like a piece of software.

1:17:52Yeah. And then you want to introduce them in a way that like people can still get out of it if they want, but you want to show them that, ah, now here's the new world. Here's how you do it. If you don't want it, you can get out. But it's almost like, again, the same thing, but reconfigured or like slightly more optimized for the new way of doing things. There's a little trust there too, right? Like it's like, actually, if you trust us for a minute, let us show you how much the agent can do. Yeah, people, like a lot of people haven't felt it yet or maybe they've tried it before, but it didn't work.

1:18:36And then they kind of lost their trust. Right. And then they never come back. They turn three times like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, so it's, I would say for now you can probably do something pretty impressive even on the first shot but even say like for a month ago it's not the case so maybe the first time you tried cursor it didn't work or it got blocked or it did something stupid and now you're like I don't want it it's like we need to figure out how to like get the new people in without too much thinking and setup, they can do stuff. Get the existing users, you know, onto like better ways to do things that are more like up to date.

1:19:29Without feeling like they're by one of the apps. Exactly. It's like you want to kind of carry them over instead of like teleporting them to the new world and then they're like, ah, what the fuck is this? Yeah. And then there's like getting the people who maybe tried cursor before that thought it was not good to come back because it's good now um yeah there's like work for us to do there solvable problems yeah many many problems to solve uh some questions about kind of process and some some other stuff that relate you have this amazing essay i'm on about creating something great um so a few things in this broader vein.

1:20:09First, like, I guess we kind of talked about this and maybe this is silly, but is design kind of just writing now? Like, it seems like most of the design you're doing, you have your walks, you go on, and then you go to Cursor and you write. Maybe you write a longer spec sheet as Cursor improves. Yeah. I do write docs and stuff. I think it is just about like

1:20:37communicating your idea and all the details that you can think of in a way digestible for your peers and the agent and the agent yeah critically yeah um so depending on like who i work with even i will change the way i make these things so like i work with an engineer his name is ian he loves mocks he loves pictures like when i do like live code prototypes he doesn't like it he just want figma mocks with all the like every detail in one picture yeah so i just do that with him or if i you know talk about something more vague people have like also vague ideas then i keep it more like maybe they're just bullets maybe they're like simple writing and then maybe when we want to do something like it's gonna be like a multi-month staged thing that's a little bigger yeah then i'll write a big rfc yeah it's all like kind of inherited from the way we do it at notion the writing part but with cursor it's like now there's like also you just kind of ah i have this idea i'll add it to my prototype and then oh look at this should we do it?

1:22:00yeah let's do it I suspect those two modes together are quite powerful yeah like you get from like the most high level like abstract level to the most detailed writing when you say the abstract level you mean long writing or like even just high level bullets what are the ideas and the constraint is a really detailed spec doc and an actual prototype two forms of like two almost different trees of detail it's like the same thing but right yeah visualize differently at different levels totally yeah what is on that note maybe like what is a week what does your time look like or i think cursor has like one meeting a week you're going on walks and thinking you're prodding reos whatever uh you're in figma sometimes like what is that like pie chart of time that's kind of random every week's different yeah very different yeah we also like jam with people at the office people are always like there um not much meetings um but a lot of talking it sounds like not scheduled meetings but a lot of Yeah, chatting and talking and jamming and drawing pictures, finding people to help join us.

1:23:32Podcasting sometimes. Oh, yeah. Getting designers to turn into coders. You're a big ringleader for that. Yeah, I want to make it happen. What do you say to the average designer currently who's feeling stressed out? You're ready. You're ready. Yeah, like it's time. Just start building. Just start pulling the thread. Get in there with the clay. And then send me all the feedback. And if you don't like what you're seeing, we'll fix it. Maybe on that note, although this could buy to engineers or any maker too, I think one intuition people have around AI, maybe the average creative or artist, non-technical person especially, is that vibe coding or AI or whatever can make slop, but it can't make soulful things.

1:24:13you have made one of the most you've certainly made the most soulful vibe coded thing I've seen if that's what real is you just need to put your soul in this you need to care about every detail you need to not accept whatever purple gradient the AI gave you as the end like that is just the beginning you always start with shit you always start with sloth with AI and then you refine it that's the beginning not the end Yeah, you just poke at it with little prompts. And then it'll get better. It'll take some turns. You say in the age of AI, the question everyone's asking is, will I be replaced? The real question is, do you know yourself well enough to become irreplaceable?

1:25:01I don't think we're through with technique and skill and craft and mastery. I am curious if if there are any of those that you think are worth mastering now, but it seems to me that it's actually more about what you might call intuition or sensibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you talk about that? Like what goes into that? Because that feels like the, it's not the end, it's the beginning. The beginning feels like, I don't like the purple slot. That's like, I know what I like and I know incrementally what I like. True. It's like the AI models are trained on all the public knowledge information and the code that I can see.

1:25:38and you are trained on the same thing, like all the books you've read, all the fonts that you know, all the artists that you admire, the world around you, and you build that intuition or taste or whatever, and you start forming an opinion about how you want to shape the world, and you express it by building.

1:26:10Yeah. That's what it is. Like. Not by thinking, by the way. Yeah. Not by thinking, not just thinking. Then it's like, you have to keep making things and keep looking at things. Yeah. One of the things that get missed in that when people talk about taste is taste is eating food. Yes. It's not thinking about food. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to keep eating and making shit. Yeah. and then make the shit better and better you critique design is aesthetics i think a lot but you're also like very attuned to aesthetics yeah real s is like the most specific thing ever like you've perfectly handcrafted recreated aqua among many other things like what is the maybe it's back to this taste thing but like what is your relationship to sort of like not holding aesthetics too tightly but also still clearly really putting a ton of time and effort and energy and thought right i think it's like it's like how you present things visually will always be there and

1:27:24like i don't really think about it anymore you just start noticing like this feels off this feels wrong and once you you have almost like a set of patterns then you don't really think about it anymore unless it's like something new that you want to stress on or you want to like put a little bit more flair into it but it's like all the foundational bricks they need to fit perfectly even in the visual space. It's like the visual space, the bricks are, it's like the color, the spacing, the layout, the grid, the different like type, type scale font sizes and all of that. It's sort of part of the, it's part of the big picture.

1:28:18Yeah, it's part of it. It's more like one layer of it. Yeah. But it's like, ideally the thing is also constructed in a way that it's like, like it's almost like the simplest form for the low level ideas that you want to convey. Yeah, I like that. It's, they're compressed. Yeah, it's like compression to pixels. What are they? Yeah. Yeah. So you still think about it, but you don't think about it too much. Yeah. Once you're over. It has its hierarchy. It has its role in the hierarchy. Right. And I also just like how people think of them separately. Sometimes it's like, so at Google, they have like interaction designers and visual designers that are split and that's bad.

1:29:14then you create a world where the visual designers only think about how the button looks and then they fight not what it looks like to press the button yeah or um it feels like i should like how should the buttons be fit fitted together why is there so many buttons yeah yeah you're always backing into this you need to have the cohes the cohesion in mind when you're in the micro yeah it's like um i know you in that in that greatness piece you wrote about focus and breadth like we're taught to focus early choose what's important discard what's peripheral the genesis of a thing that might be great um strict focus is a ruse the treasure lies in expansive searching and stitching together a tapestry of interrelated issues later once you roam far enough clarity will guide you toward the right edges until then let curiosity roam and it almost feels like that is going in two axes which is the axes of like incremental new thing and the axes of like hierarchy and cohesion yeah you do that at the same time and that's why it's chaotic yeah and ambiguous yeah yeah and you have to rein it in with the order and yeah yeah like when people try to put this into like a linear process or order they just fuck it up

1:30:30yeah because there's no more like emergence do you think that one view just says that like google doesn't have realu or whatever and pick your favorite designer another view that says the people at google are talented and actually like they are the system is failing them yes it seems like you think the latter i think the latter and i think say a tool like cursor or its ideal form can help with those meaning like people with different roles or they're kind of stuck in boxes right now yeah you just break the box and let them build the thing they want yeah another part of that essay on greatness pursue agility and quality in equal measure the myth says you must choose move quickly and break things or move slowly and ensure elegance but genuine excellence emerges from a dance between speed and depth, agility and quality.

1:31:24I love this. Like a skilled musician who can improvise yet still maintain impeccable technique, you must learn to adapt fluidly without compromising the integrity of the final piece. I'm curious how this dance, it makes sense to me that it could happen working solo on a short-term project without that much of a plan, maybe Rio S. how does that happen maybe at other modalities either with wide collaboration or let's say you're working on cursor 2.0 and it's this big long-term project how do you how do you embody that in that type of context it's kind of like the you let chaos be and you wrangle it at the same time or it's like you're,

1:32:19you don't pick size, you find like an equilibrium. Yeah, between the complexity and the simplicity. And same thing with like how much fast you want to go versus like how much thinking do you want to do? And I think especially in this age, it's actually so easy to just try try things out maybe it starts with so much in so many of your answers it starts with just saying like it doesn't have to be a choice like you're allowed to do both oh yeah they're the same thing yeah it's like people get stuck thinking like they need to pick sides or they need to make these hard trade-offs when all of these are just like variables and you can add a little bit here, lower a little bit here.

1:33:13It's all dynamic. You want to be more flexible to the situation you're in and the change that's coming. You don't want your system to be stale or stuck in like a form that you can't get out as the world is changing.

1:33:37you want to keep the essence clean and simple you want to create like a space for people to play with ideas so they can ship really fast but maybe it doesn't disrupt like the rest of the system as much and then once you have say more room or even like you're constantly doing this like let's wrangle things back, let's like unify things then you keep the core system better as you add more things or as you experiment with more things. Yeah, it's like a complex system can actually be quite high quality and fast if its parts are simple. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we build all this complexity and scaffolding and arbitrary bureaucracy, whatever, all these things, all these shoulds.

1:34:25Right. And ideally, you'd actually get rid of all that crap that is not even part of the system, the software itself. Yeah, it's bloat. Yeah, it's like everything around it, the processes, a lot of it just don't make sense. Where they slow things down. They slow this loop down. Like you have an idea to see it real, to test it out, and then you iterate on it. How does this, how many people are cursor now? 300. 100. And you were obviously a notion for a long period of that growth. Like how does, when Cursor's 3000 people, how does this not happen? You guys like, you don't really have that much of a roadmap.

1:35:08The planner agent will be ready by then. And then multiplayer Cursor will be there. Sure enough. Then people can be still like pretty, like I think how Cursor does it really fast and pretty good is like a lot of people we hire, they're just really high agency people. They were like founders before that have made stuff before. They just want to build. They don't want to think too much. Sure, but that definitely works with 30. Maybe that works with 300. All wisdom would say that doesn't work with 3 ,000. Even if you had 3 ,000 Steve Jobs, it would actually be a disaster. Yeah, I'm not sure. I think that is actually one part of the, it's like a part of the questions we need to answer, which is like in this new world of building with AI, how do teams work?

1:35:58And I think it won't be that, like it won't be too close to what we had before, like layers of management and linear processes. It's probably not going to be that. So what is it? How do you like both make sure like people are kind of aligned on the general direction, but each person have agency, each person can build whatever they want to an extent, have systems to kind of manage this and help people control.

1:36:32Making sure that these people are actually talking to each other and share the same information when they do stuff. Like that's the main problem we have now, I think. It's like people are so, so distraught. they talk to their own teams that are created like with row boundaries they work in their own files own tools one thing that maybe helps that i you also have in that essay is about the quality of a team you say the team that molds greatness is not a conscript army but a band of pilgrims such people don't hide behind process or hiring. Oh, yeah. What does it feel like when you meet a group of people, you're in a room or you're in a visitant office or when you first kind of met the cursor people or whatever?

1:37:25How can you tell that it's a band of pilgrims? Just see what they're doing and what they care about. You ask them, why are they here? And then they tell you, because I love programming. They just like doing this thing. like they're into it they're passionate they care deeply and they want to make the best thing and they want to put the work in it and you see it like they don't talk about I don't know equity or whatever you know investment or I don't know they talk about like the latest models the new ideas, they exchange their ideas. And they're there for quite a long time every day. And they're doing that, like not being forced.

1:38:31Yeah. Yeah. On the note of the sort of essay about making something great, do you aspire to greatness? Oh, yeah. What does that mean for you? To me, it means like you make something that helps a lot of people that lasts.

1:38:56And ideally is like pretty close to the ideal configuration of the thing.

1:39:04Yeah. That truth, the trueness we talked about. Right. But sometimes you fake it. It's like sometimes we make the upper layer really nice and pretty and cohesive, but under the hood is like chaos. But that's fine. You just, you do that like slowly. Yeah, it's like the, I don't know, the picture of the SpaceX rocket, the first SpaceX rocket, the iPhone. The same, the iPhone air now is like. Oh yeah. Like even if you look at the inside, it's like so pretty. Yeah, yeah. I saw your, I want the clear iPhone air too. That would be amazing.

1:39:41I have, we have a little time left. So I have a bunch of like quick speed round questions. We can, we can, we don't have to take super long on each one. First off, maybe it relates to your last answer. What does it mean for technology to feel more human? Not exactly the easiest speed round answer or question, but. I think I should like fit each human better and it's different for everyone. like some people prefer something really simple some people actually want to see everyone some people like talking some people like reading some people like like watching youtube tutorials some people like uh going to a course buying a book it's fit it's a personal connection it's about like fitting the human in the way they do things not in the way like i do things yeah or like our engineers do things.

1:40:39Those can be like good examples. And as it fits you better, it inevitably needs to understand you better, your preferences of even like your way of thinking or how you talk and the things you care about. it's like almost being seen by a design or like when you do it it just feels like like you're in flow and you don't think kind of like how i yeah but that took like years of training yes but now it's like maybe a couple tries you you're like there yeah yeah you write a lot and you clearly are really thoughtful about how what not only what you have to say about cursor publicly, but the narrative and the conversation around cursor.

1:41:35We spoke about this briefly and you said like tools are all selling ideas. They're all attaching themselves to ideas. There's a lineage of ideas they're, they're sort of pointing at. How you talk about tools matters tremendously. You have to plant seeds. What do you mean by planting seeds in like, how, how do you think about shaping what people think and perceive about cursor? Right. Yeah. I think like software to me, kind of like what we said, that's just like a tree of concepts packaged up in the word cursor or notion. Notion is blocks, pages, databases, cursors, agents, models, contexts and editors maybe.

1:42:23But you also want to like create something like, it's like a brand that lasts that is not just your present form that is a little bigger that ties with the past and the future and that is definitely not say cursor is the AI coded it is not even like say cursor makes you extraordinary productive it is bigger yeah and then you want to tell the bigger story and then you want to also like tell smaller stories to like different groups of people right right but tie them all together yeah it's almost like it's like the tool itself or the product is like the ship and the story is like we're going to the americas or something like you having that broader context is important people attach a lot of identity to the things they use to to make things yep like i think it's actually a service like we need to do more of this um to kind of paint a picture for people to see how we came here yeah and how these things are actually the same things same ideas how the ideas originated how they kind of interweaved yes well that's how they are especially yeah yeah it's so alienating a lot of people like now when they start they actually just start from like now now they don't see the past they don't know how we came here or they're living in the past and they're like I don't like this they're stuck in the in the past and they don't know how this future can take them yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you said you there was a tweet where you said you're talking about a bunch of things you said don't build slot machines and a few people accused cursor of being a slot machine right um what do you say to that i don't think cursor is a slot machine because slot machines they don't let you open it up it's closed black box but cursor is like i actually don't want your primary way to interface with cursor to be like kind of like say cloud code or codex cli is like you're in the terminal, you're in this little box and then you're kind of constrained and just like that input.

1:44:45And you're just typing the thing in a little box and then enter and see what happens. Wait for a little bit. See what happens. Versus like in cursor, like that is say it is possible and you can do it like that. But that is just like one form of it. It's the beginning. Yeah. Or like you will just naturally hit these ah I see a code block maybe I want to click and see what's in it ah I'm like done with this chat I hit this review button and then now I see all the things and it slowly teaches you say like now we're doing code reviews we're going to stitch the agent reviews with the code review with git and you know all the other stuff then as a new newcomer even like you come in and you start it with a simple thing you slowly get to the like if you want, like I don't force you either.

1:45:41It's like, if you don't want to open the code, you don't have to. And you keep hitting the slot machine if you want. If you want that is fine. And I don't think that's a slot machine either. Again, it's like, it's customizable. It's open. You can open it up. You can do whatever to it. Even in the simple form, you can still customize the thing. And you have full control and you have the whole spectrum of control from like the most manual coding which is you just type and it's still your thing i don't do anything to like you type and then our tab model is still the world best thing you type and then boom it kind of completes your thought it jumps you to the next place you keep going so if you prefer that and you're like in your flow state there you should keep doing that um and then for say like there's now like a small chunk of like professional developers who have became very agent coded like they don't do manual coding as much anymore then for them that's like we have tools for them to focus on one agent spend multiple agents manage them at a higher level soon then you get the whole spectrum and And for these people, again, it's like they can find their preferred spot and then they can open it up and do more if they want.

1:47:13But I don't force them to be like, ah, you're always in this little box and all you can do is put the problem in a little box, see what happens. Is there a pattern from Stripe to Notion to Cursor as you've spent most of the last decade? Yeah. I don't see them as too different either. or like they're actually very similar like Stripe to me is just passing messages around the internet but the messages are transactions or money related Notion is just like basically like the meta SaaS tool kind of databases and all the archetypes of views and patterns Cursor brings it more low level but it's also more flexible like you actually break all of these patterns and parts completely and at some point like you will get a composed by the ai or with our like presets or something so you get the tool you want yeah you have a line somewhere where you say building stuff that frees up people's minds and it felt like that's kind of true for all those three things yeah it's like helping people make make the thing they want.

1:48:28What did you learn from, what did you and what have you learned from the Notion founders and the Cursor founders, respectively? Or maybe even Stripe. From Ivan's, like...

1:48:45I think he kind of showed, like, system thinking and aesthetics can be melded together. Like, you don't have to pick. Wow. And then from Cursor people, it's just like, you should just YOLO and do stuff and don't think too much and keep doing it. Ambitious naivete. Yeah, exactly. It's like, that is actually so good in this age because actually nobody knows what they're doing, right? Like all the old ways of doing things don't really apply anymore. What do you love about Steve Jobs? I love him as it's almost like a spiritual figure, kind of. Like I'm not religious, but I feel like sometimes people need like a thing there.

1:49:47And I kind of put this as a symbol there. That helps me a lot. What does that symbol represent? It's like forcing you to be thinking about everything, all the details and coming up with the simplest thing. Yeah, and he kind of helped me start all of this. Like he got me into design or like, you know, the old Apple. Yeah. Like they showed how like computers can be beautiful. maybe on that note what is the difference to you between liquid glass and i mean

1:50:37like aqua it's more like what they're trying to do was like they bring a lot of like the physical metaphors into the computer yeah so that people feel more familiar with things like if you look at all the icons they almost look like they look like the emojis we use today yeah like they're super detailed yeah like with real world like reflections and material yeah um and it's like back in the days it looks completely different from say the gray boxes people used like the beveled totally 3d buttons and stuff so that was like pretty game-changing they also mastered like how to render fonts. Like back then how Aqua was made it's like all just kind of PDF rendered on your screen.

1:51:30You can stretch the UI like freely. The text was not like you know in like bitmap little pixels but it's like it's all like anti-aliased, like perfect. Liquid glass almost feels like it's almost like a flex on what Apple can do now. And it's kind of weird. It's like, I get the point. It's like they're trying to like unify the design language across all of their platforms coming up with like one thing. But it's like how you use a phone versus how you use the Vision Pro when you stare at things and then they need to track your eye, your finger, and your little pointer on the mouse button. They're all different.

1:52:20So your interface probably can't be the same thing, but they try to make it the same thing. And this material, even though it's inspired by glass, it's purely digital. They're just flexing that they can build system-level shaders and make them perform across every single UI. And then my menus can morph into a button and out from the button. But then to the users, like, what's the point? It's just... It actually makes, like, it makes a lot of the UI, like, like, you can't see much anymore. Or, like, the tabs take so much space. Like, you need to keep clearance for the tabs, their shadows, the little blur under it.

1:53:07so you actually like when you compare the old ios and the new one you actually see less text or like there's like less stuff you can do so maybe like the priorities have changed like instead of being truthful to the platform themselves and the way you interact with it either it's a finger or your eye or your little pointer they have different precision let's just like make everything the same I have to stop you because I know you can rant about this all day. I'm really good at finding things to get my guests to rant about in the last few minutes. Just a couple more questions. Yes. I know I had to get this one in.

1:53:43Okay. What makes new jeans stand out in a world of factory farmed cable? I think it's the same idea. Like, I think all of the things that we make, the new things, are just kind of remixes of the old things. And what new jeans did was they just mixed things really well. and then they give these girls like a space to just be themselves and have fun and that's why like it feels so different from like all these scripted manufactured like k-pop songs um that were it's almost like most you know people they're just kind of mixing a lot of crazy things together now whereas like new jeans they're more like soft full and so again it's like about taste and yeah like the constraint yeah k-pop some in some ways k-pop can feel like it's just like what does the algorithm want yeah yeah yeah like you find like a concept and then you kind of like what they do is they get a lot of sound writers and they buy a lot of songs and then they're just like oh let's like mix these parts or mix these genres boom put the English Korean Japanese lyric together boom what uh can you say something about uh Zhuangji's butterfly dream ah butterfly fly dream.

1:55:16It's like life in a sense, it's like, like reality is not that real. And it's like a lot of it is just in your head. So sometimes you feel like, so almost like you're, you're living in a dream where you can actually mold anything. it's old steve jobs video it's like when you figure out that the world is moldable and plastic you can poke it and you get feedback back yeah and it's like the the butterfly and sometimes you you just let things go and see how it how it happens and sometimes you go back and you take control like you wake up from the dream right sometimes Yeah, you're in between dream and reality.

1:56:09Yeah. We're always all doing that, by the way. We're on autopilot and we're not. You know. I was talking to Rio OS and I was talking to Steve Jobs, Pope Francis, and Rio. And the Pope said something about a revolution of tenderness. And Steve was skeptical. So I asked Rio what tenderness means to him. He said, tenderness to me is when a system or tool feels intuitive, almost invisible, making things smooth and delightful. It's the empathy baked into the design. We didn't talk a lot about empathy today, although I think it's kind of running in the background of our conversation. It's clear you are deeply empathetic to the people you care about, which is, I think, people who make things.

1:56:54What does IRL Rio think about tenderness?

1:57:01tenderness

1:57:06just like putting the care into things and people you meet and the people we serve um

1:57:19being truthful that like you know the ideas that we work with or the technology even is like universal. It's general, it's like generalizable. It's not exclusive to like a group of people. And you can always start by like, like you understand what you need, what you are frustrated with. And then you find a group of people who are maybe similar to you. So like the people working at Cursor. And they all share similar problems. And they, you know, make stuff for themselves and make this tool. And then it's about like, how do we bring it out to more people like us or even beyond people like us? And that's maybe like the next breakthrough will be.

1:58:16Like the vibe coding tools and the pro coding tools today are still very split. Like it's really hard for say the non-technical people to come into cursor today but also very hard for them to like progress from a vibe coding thing to a real thing so maybe we can help with that um we can help with it's like turning the designers into coders the pms into coders the coders into designers it's all the same thing it's all the same thing and we start realizing oh we can actually like we don't have to like put boxes around our heads or our eyes we can actually do things we can do things better with other people who have say different areas of specialization but we're all thinking about the same thing people don't have to fight like instead of fighting about I don't know bureaucracy you fight about the truth like what is the best thing to do what is the ideal configuration of the thing we're doing together and you're helping people you raise all the parts in their job that they don't really like doing you help people like amplify their strength like what they care about what they're really good at and you help meld these people's drinks together and then the agent covers the rest yeah realu yeah thank you very much thank you