Cultivating Virtuosity: Integrating Philosophy into Everyday Life

29:26And I think it's by continuing to participate, by continuing to have my relationships with the two of you, with the other aspirants, with the people in my life, I can, and in continuing to go through the course, I can hone in on a kind of center. That's valuable. Yeah, that's the best I can do for now. That's very much. Yunaris is communal criterion of truth. Truth is that which affords shared sense presence. That's really interesting.

30:19You're actually giving me a concrete example of exactly that. That's how we get a sense. We do that circumambulation of perspectives and identities. Okay, that's very helpful. And it's helpful outside of, like I said, really helped me getting a clear idea of what your Norris is talking about, about how if truth is not affording shareable and mutually correctable sensed presence of meaning, we shouldn't be talking about it as truth. And then you just enacted it there, which was really, really sweet and delicious. how is that not therapy because I have a sense how it's not but I want you to articulate how is that not just therapeutic I feel somewhat constrained by the fact that I've never been in therapy but it how I imagine it not being the same as therapy is that the the authority is a lot more flat and participatory rather than therapy being a place where you go and talk to somewhat of an authority figure that's separate from your life and then you go back into your life and then there's still this like, I imagine there would be still be this like centering process and swinging but um here this it feels a lot more um distributed and like and and those two things domains that are separate in therapy are have much more overlap can i stretch a little bit more also because i think what's what's coming out for me and i i'm not i'm not trying to expose you, but I want to also name sort of like where I've heard the most impact around like, at least the words impact that me very strongly because we talk quite often that when I hear you say, oh, you know, I go back to my family, I'm visiting my family for the weekend, or I had a chat with this friend, and these are people who have not come to workshops or are not within, I suppose, even the aspirant cohort.

32:30What I've noticed about you, which allows me to trust you quite a lot is that you're also taking their feedback very seriously. Like, oh, you know, this person has named this or has mentioned this. And it's like, I always get the sense from you that you take that feedback seriously and as self-corrective. Like, ah, okay, you know, how does it apply to relationships and dating? How does it apply to what's happening? How am I participating differently in a work setting or in like a different residency and you know in like summer jobs that kind of thing and also how is that feedback that i'm getting out in the world how could that inform how we might need to do things differently as well yes yes exactly so it feeds back and it corrects what we're doing as well yeah yeah could i now ask ellie to answer those two questions and how they converge

33:30I feel like this is kind of a tangential answer, but I'm going to try. There's a way in which therapy and my worldview before doing Tiamat was very substancy and transactional. there was a time where I went into a mall of like everything's so beautiful and like you know we don't need to be anything more you know we're just fine we just need to be which was more open but it also kind of hid the instrumentalness instrumental attitude that was still there or that is very much drained and I think therapy like I at least I went to therapy with that very instrumental kind of intention of like I have an issue I want to get a solution to that expert has been trained in multiple solutions that you know have evidence that might work so that's why I'm going to them whereas in Tiamat it's much more of like it depends on who i'm doing these practices with in every different configuration of participants friends i um i find new ways that i can be with or new questions to ask myself even just to reflect on what's underneath, why I do anything at all.

35:08And in that process, I realized, I need to be careful about this, like the non-dual or like the fact that multiple things can be happening at once and it doesn't have to be one or the other. Like something can feel really difficult and also really joyous at the same time. So there's like both weight and a lightness. And that was like,

35:44there's this analogy I used to use. It felt like my world changed from a 2D world into a three-dimensional world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, there's this whole new arena to play in. Yeah, which therapy didn't really do for me. I mean, it opened up more things, but in a 2D way. So I'm hearing, I'm hearing, that's a really, that's a really good insight. I'm hearing therapy. And I think it's fair to say that therapy often presents itself this way, especially with its allegiance to sort of the medical institutions. It's an instrumental, engineered approach to a specific sort of breakdown or problem.

36:34And what you find in Tiamat is not that instrumental engineering attitude. It's much more emergent, dependent on who you're working with. And then what you noted was a complexification, Not just more, like therapy might give you, but more dimensions, like that's your 2D to your 3D. And I'm wondering, is that partially also an answer to my question about overcompensation? Because it strikes me that being rigid or overcompensating both destroy the affordance for complexification. But when we're getting it right, we have complexification. And Renj, you were also sort of alluding to that. I'm trying to get at, again, and that would make sense given how much the multiple perspectives and multiple identities and multiple games drive you towards complexification.

37:36The idea that when you went from 2D to 3D, you didn't say, well, maybe that's a mistake, right? It struck you as, I'm no more in touch with reality. I have an enhanced and increased sense of reality. And I'm wondering if it's that emergent complexification that is, right? And it goes with what you said too, Renz, if that's our sense that we're getting in between rigidity and overcompensation. Because both rigidity, rigidity destroys complexification because it doesn't allow transformation. Overcompensation, right, is because it destroys any emergent structures that are trying to take shape. There's no integration.

38:27Is that track? I know I'm using abstract language because right now I'm trying to get a theoretical purchase on the phenomenology. I'm trying to, okay, what is it they're telling me? What is it? Like, what is it they're doing? Is this landing at all? I'm trying to pick up on your 2D, 3D thing, Ali. I think that's really, really important. And for me, that's a prototypical way of talking about complexification. Like, you're not losing the two dimensions, right? They're being folded into an emergent, new, more complex structure. Yeah. I mean, what came up for me when you mentioned rigidity and overcompensation was that both seem like states of certainty.

39:15Like, I must be this or I must be this other thing. And in between is all this ambiguity. And I think that's where we play. Right. But I want to press on that because ambiguity can be really horrible, too. Right. So there's an implicit normativity here of the good ambiguity versus the bad ambiguity. So I can give my question back to you again then. What allows you to distinguish the good ambiguity from the bad ambiguity? And I think it's something like an intimation that this is going to give birth to complexity, where the other one is just dissipating my attention and my efforts and frustrating me.

39:59it's like um yeah you're right because the um i'm really familiar with the bad kind of ambiguity yes yes me too me too yeah um yeah so i i do for for me uh and i feel like i'm i'm i'm at a really early stage of this it's still quite very new to me it is a kind of uh felt sense of phenomenology of

40:29like all of being able to see all these things that were always possible, but that I'm only getting to know now. All these ways of being, all these ways of acting even that I could possibly do that in the past just seemed like it never occurred to me in that moment. But so, So, sorry, I keep on following this because I feel like I'm on something here, right? So my hand is complex because it can do many different things while still holding together. I think the bad ambiguity is many possibilities open up, but there's no way in which they're held together. And I think what you're telling me is you have those possibilities, but they open up and then you're in a space that holds them all together and gives you access in a coordinated fashion to the possibilities.

41:26That's what I mean by complexification. That like the possibilities were out here and they were just abstract and now they're live for me because I'm in a place from which I can reach them all. Is that tracking? Yes. Yes. And that reaching feels like completely agentic and practical. Yes. Not airy-fairy, not view from nowhere, kind of like, oh, there exists in some kind of abstract space. But I'm struggling to make it more concrete than what I'm seeing. You're doing a great job. I'm tracking it. I think this discussion about trying to discern good, like, okay, I think that idea about ambiguity, neither certainty, right?

42:19But then how do I discern the good ambiguity from the bad ambiguity? And this notion of the sensed presence of possibility as a live option rather than as an abstract goal that is somehow unreachable by you, that I think is very, very, very helpful. Yeah. Does that relate to the therapy question that you asked earlier and if so, how? Because the way that I'm holding it somewhat abstractly is that if I'm receiving therapy, then the normativity of the therapy, if it's instrumental, if it comes with an instrumental orientation is, does it solve my problem? Which presupportes that I knew what that problem was anyway.

43:06But what I'm hearing you articulate is something different, which to me is, and I'm particularly biased because I think this is what therapy should be doing, which is empowering someone's agency. What I'm hearing you say, Pao Pao, is that the ambiguity arises, but the certainty of what I thought was the problem now fades into the background, but I can participate in the ambiguity and I can participate in the problem formulation process. And in doing that, the affordances open up. Rather than, oh no, now it's complex. Now I need someone to tell me what to do here. Someone tell me what to do here.

43:45Someone tell me what to do here and fix that. Yeah, I think that's right. I would not try to propose a dichotomy between therapy and what you're doing. I think that there's a continuum. So we're talking about the poles, not the polarity. Neither are we discouraging people from therapy, by the way. No, no, no, no, no. This is more what I'm doing. We're talking about the phenomenology behind... But I'm also trying to say, what could you reasonably expect to reliably get from Tiamat that you might not get easily accessed in therapy? That's what I'm trying to get at. Because our culture has been conditioned into the garbage can of therapy, which is, well, you don't have a problem that fits into all the other institutionalized problem-solving machines, go get therapy.

44:35That's what we do now. And for me, there's this whole dimension of you're not instrumentally solving a problem, right? You're doing something else. You're opening up possibilities of how to live, which is a different thing. So to use some of the psychological language, most therapy is about addressing pathology. Piamat is about cultivating excellence. And in that sense, it's more like positive psychology. And I think there's, I want to add something to what you've named also, which might bring sort of what both of you have brought together, which is that there's this deep participation in being able to play in the possibility space.

45:26Yeah. But then there's also a corrective function that is distributed rather than authoritative. I think that's really important. Okay. I think we've really done great at tier one and then the liminal between tier one and tier two. And now I'm going to pass it back to you, Ethan, to open the door into tier two and and talk about a little of the stuff, some of the stuff we talked about off Kramer and what you foreshadowed at the beginning of this recording. Yeah, thanks. So about a year ago now, a year and a half ago, Taylor Barrett sort of passed me this paper that was written by Ken Wilber and Dustin DeParna called Towards a Deliberately Developmental Civilization.

46:13and you know taylor and i use this metaphor in common in all of our containers which is they propose that in order to become deliberately developmental you have to address three important poles or what taylor calls the three-legged stool if you lose one of these legs the stool falls over and that structures of consciousness states of consciousness and shadow work so obviously across tier one tier two tier three structures dynamics and states you can hear the echo of that. The shadow work piece for me has now recently been rejigged into speaking about dynamics. And I'm trying to address kind of what John, you had pointed at, which is around, I suppose, a kind of hunger for a psychological structure, I suppose, or structure of psychotherapy, which comes up in our pop culture, right?

47:05So there's a lot of this like pop psychology, especially now with the advent of social media, on TikTok or Instagram, you can look up the things that you need to do, how to change your mind about this thing, how to influence your relationships or your mental health in this way, that way, you know, other. And for me, I think I've noticed an issue around shadow work. So, and Jung's corpus at large, which is that there is a kind of cherry picking of things that Jung has said that are, oh, these are good and shadow is one of those things, where I think there's a conflation. There's a conflation and a rhetoric behind it, which is that, oh, if you do shadow work, you heal all your trauma and you'll magically become better.

47:51But you need to go deep down into the storehouse of your pain, pop that open, gaze into the abyss, unpack all of that, and suddenly your life will turn over and become better. And here are a list of 15 things that you can do if you buy my book to fix that in 30 days. Which to me is like, okay. First of all, Jung's work is broad and he has a coherent, at least to him, system of the ways in which those work. So when we cherry pick something like that out, I think there is a risk of over-indexing on that. So with shadow work, I think that what people now conflate or call shadow work is actually a conflation between shadow work and animal work.

48:43Animal work being the more sort of like developmental trauma piece and shadow work actually being more of a trait-based character intervention piece, right? So the issue that I'm seeing is that when this conflation is alive and active, people identify with their states as being their shadow. So if I want to be happy, then all the times that I feel sad, that's my shadow. So my shadow is all of the things that make me feel sad. Really? People are doing that? I believe you, by the way. But that's really a mistake. Yeah, it is. It's a huge mistake. And, you know, to me, I find that like, okay, we need to parse those out a little bit.

49:31We just want to offer... But it's a mistake because the shadow is archetypal. And that's not how you're supposed to understand archetypes. You're not supposed to identify them with one particular form of manifestation. You have to look for deep dispositional patterns, not just experiential intensity or contrast. Yes, exactly. This is why when I do my intro to shadow work, I have to give a framing lecture of exactly this thing, which is the ways in which we enact ourselves in the world, the affordances that we have socially, relationally, and particularly the ones that are disidentified. That's the key idea, Ethan.

50:20The shadow is about patterns of deep identification. It's not about contrasting sets of affective states. Yes, exactly. And I'm exasperated at how often I have to explain this to people. Because I think when we understand them as the traits that we disidentify, autonomize, automatize, sorry, so they are automatic and dissociated, right? So it's not, not only is it just in plain language, not me, but I don't even remember when I behave in that way to other people. But Jung pointed this out in Ion, we recognize that as a maladaptation. So he calls it a character maladaptation. When something occurs, like I say something to you, I go like, don't be such a freaking asshole, man.

51:20And I go like, oh, I recognize this maladaptation. Right. Actually, we notice it on some level. But when we recognize them as traits, as opposed to intense states of affect, now something opens up and affordance opens up where we can go, okay, what kind of person would I like to be? And how do I address that? And I think that's distinctly different from at least my conception of my proposal of the animal, which is the ground upon which those affordances are generated at all, right? The framing of that. So we, and we can talk about that more at length because that's more complex. But when we're talking about dynamics, particularly in tier two, we're trying to do exercises that get us used to understanding how we project.

52:06So what projection is, and that's to be clear between projection in the predictive processing sense, right? And psychodynamic projection, that's a distinction that we draw as well. The distinction between traits and states. So one doesn't necessarily feel aggressive. What is beneath the aggression, right? And we might see the affective state then as anger, but the aggression is a trait. And I can recognize where I am and how I experience something as intense as anger or fear, but I can regain my agency in the ways in which I can enact that in the world, right? In a different way. I don't have to be aggressive just because I'm angry, right?

52:54So this is the thing that we're trying to explore in tier two to be able to say that, hey, how do you come into a relationship with yourself that allows you to recognize what's coming up for you, how you might be motivated in the world, how that habitually in an automatic fashion annexes itself in your relationships with others, right? And allow ourselves a little bit more flexibility for that. Of course, within distributed group practices that I can go, well, if I say this, this is the kind of feedback that I get. Okay, then I have to tune, and I have to tune, and I have to tune. And a lot of it is non-propositional.

53:36I think tier two is probably the most, quote unquote, intense, most embodied, and deeply relational part of the container. Yeah. So that's why I will offer kind of front and center, and then we can have at it. Yeah. That's great. How do you want to proceed? Do you want to talk about how that is showing up for all of you, or at least Renz and Ellie now in tier two? I think that's good. Yeah. Let's do that. Yeah, I would love to actually hear from the two of you. I know we've had longer discussions about some of these and they're ongoing, but perhaps in a more reflective capacity, now that you guys maybe have had some time away from a tier two, what are some dynamics that as you're looking back, when, oh, I discovered this in tier two and this is the journey that I've went through, whether in the container and also out, integrating that recognition with your everyday life.

54:44like what are some of the dynamics that you have noticed in your relationships that might have shifted or changed or you still hold the question around?

54:57Something that I remember quite clearly happening. So in tier two, I want to push back a little bit about what you said about tier two being the most in a sense like intense and body because tier three is it's like tier two plus plus plus so um but in tier two whereas in tier one i i was more of seeing uh being able to see how i interacted with this group and what comes up for me in tier two i'm seeing how i have always or have been interacting with the world that results in that in the deep secret patterns that you were mentioning john and um that's really uh difficult to look at sometimes because there's a lot of shame at least for me around them like i'm um so like a concrete example was i i had i was having this a really big shift and this also comes from uh our conversations just my conversations with ethan about um how i saw uh gender roles in the world and in a in a personal context like within my family now that's me my sister my brother and my dad and there's always this dichotomy between not like there's always this um like tension between the the the women and the men of the house and um my sister and i used to have a lot of stories about how um the men in the house would not uh hold on to the mental law would not be aware of what needs to be done would not communicate and all these and um but yet we had not had a direct like open conversation with not the men in the house but my father and my brother who I love deeply um and I didn't even recognize that like it didn't occur to me that hello this hasn't happened yet because the kind of information that I was getting on social media, my friends were also like, yeah, there's a way in which I felt we were not being very rigorous or generous to the opposite, gender two men.

57:35And so like in tier two, when we do things like two person vipassana, I'm hearing myself say all the things that I would not ever say in real life, but I have thought, and I do think those things at some times. And that's the confrontation with myself that I realized like, okay, something needs to happen here. I can't not see this anymore. And then something like it shifts.

58:11yeah it feels like a big shift and then I can go and have a conversation with my dad my brother my sister about about this and and now my my thinking or my attitude around like men or what it means to talk about gender roles at all is quite different yeah is that I'm just trying to understand what the dynamic is that you're pointing at, which seems to be something like the assignment or I suppose the lens of the gender role thing is transparent and automatically imposed upon the world, including most presciently in your family, right? But then in tier two and through conversations with me, what actually ends up happening is being able to go, hey, what this thing keeps happening and if I don't look at it that way or if I just turn the lens or clean it or get more like a higher resolution on why that's there, in what way, in what form and the impact that it has through sort of verbalizing it I suppose in the example that you're giving that you now have more what's the word, facility facility with it with the dynamic or with what with the way with the way in which it's because it's more opaque to you there's more facility with it rather than it coming up forward and it becomes the the frame in which you look at the world yeah right so now I guess I can feel more intentional and agentic about like is this the kind of dynamic you want to have with your dad you know if not what do I do about it yeah

1:00:04is there something like that to do no no no you just did what I wanted to do Ethan that was very good I wanted to thank Ellie and just ask Renz the same thing

1:00:17the major one for me when I did the tier 1 and tier 2 in Czech Republic two years ago now yeah last year okay wow Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:01:00I could open that up pretty much fully and be terrified and like in a fully embodied way, like I'm really scared of you guys right now. I'm afraid you're judging me. You're thinking this about me. You're hating everything I'm saying. And then the feedback that I could get from all these people was, no, no, we're not judging you. Some people might have been indifferent, some people might have been sympathetic, but it was not the pattern my mind was predicting. The feedback I got did not fit the model. And then through that, it's been a long and bumpy process, but I've definitely gotten a degree of peace from that consuming fear.

1:02:04Good. It was five days of that. Yeah. With your fear. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, the peace that I've gotten has been more long-term. Yes, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, and I think there's something, I love that. There's something valuable that what you named, and this might also feed well into sort of the ongoing project of the integration between predictive processing and relevance realization, which is there is a story that I have about the world. There's a model that I hold. I project it onto the world, and I recognize that for whatever reason, people are going to think this or be this, or they'll behave in a particular way, and we've mapped that as the affordance landscape of how we've been treated before.

1:02:47how we treat others. And there's, you know, a limited scope on that, depending on how much experience you've had and the kinds of developmental experiences you've had. And I imagine it's quite, I mean, we were talking about this, especially in the context of dating as well. And we ran into this, especially when we were dating as well. Like when we think this is the way that the world works, and then someone comes in in good faith and goes, Yeah, I know. It's like, oh, really? That's possible. I remember when we were having one of our first contractions, you had named to me that like, I think it was during, it was in it or after where you were like, I had no idea someone could be upset and angry, but also logical and gentle and wanting to hear what I'm experiencing yeah yeah and that seemed to be quite a shift for you yeah that was it felt like a superpower what kind of training have you had that was early days but is it no but the opposite is also true which is like you know for me I've it was somewhat far away from me that there was a possibility that someone could be in a contraction with me or be in a conflict with me, right?

1:04:17And not collapse, but to actually like hold and go, no, tell me what's happening. Why is this? And to treat me with a gentleness and the grace to go like, when I'm angry, you treat me with grace. And I go, huh, I don't know what to do with this. I guess I have to figure out, right? And then that's how it sort of opens up the affordance landscape. So what I hear you saying, and you invoked predictive processing relevance realization is you're actually opening up, you're diversifying the potential error sources on your predictive processing. And then you have to re-engage relevance realization to do how to pay attention to those error signals and get the correct precision weighting on the new kinds of error signals, which goes back to the right normativity, getting the sweet spot between.

1:05:16So that's landing very, very well for me. What about you, Ethan? like I've been hearing a lot from Renz and Ellie which has been really good by the way thank you so much I mean one of the things is given what we said is you're not standing outside of this wielding therapeutic instrumentality you're somehow you're participating but you're also facilitating, what has that been like for you? That must be developing its own set of skills and states and traits in order to get that sweet spot between too much therapeutic intervention and too much theoretical reflection or I don't know what to say, but you know what I'm trying to point to.

1:06:13I know what you mean. and this is something that has come up quite a lot and we've made it as an organization at 5 to midnight. One of the guiding ideas is exemplification over demonstration. So when I'm explaining an exercise or when we're doing two-person vipassana, we're doing owning your judgments or we're in the gymnasium, right? When I'm explaining the exercise, even with one of the co-facilitators, that I'm not trying to make a facsimile of what it would look like. What I'm trying to do is to work with something that's actually here for me, actually present. And I think the tier two that we did last year, I was wrestling deeply with this sense of, am I good enough to actually facilitate this?

1:07:06Because that was in the midst of the conversations that you and I and Taylor were having, John, where it's like, oh shit, there's actually quite a lot here. And Taylor, for the love of him, he's one of my best friends and therefore I can trust him to tell me straight. And one of the things that he told me straight was like, dude, I love you, but you don't have the degree of experience to be able to hold this alone. You need to have a team with you, right? And I went from that into a container where I'm like, okay, well, I'm running this by myself, kind of, but is it really that? Is it really that?

1:07:47Or am I truly alone if I'm, I'm only alone if I'm not participating, but I reasoned for myself that, okay, if I participate and I take everyone's feedback seriously, then in a way we're helping each other. So I was wrestling with this thing of not being good enough. And in one of our exercise is called the market, which is basically a deeply embodied ritual of knowing your, of recognizing your wants, right? And your desires kind of like, I suppose, a primary fundamental drive thing. You're allowed to make requests to other people and they have to find it in themselves, what we call either a fuck yes or a no.

1:08:33It's either fuck yes or no. There's no in between there's no renegotiation. So what ended up happening is I go, okay, what do I actually need right now? And what surfaced for me was I want to be trusted. I want to be trusted by people who trust me. And so there was something of like, I asked the cohort, But would you all be willing to have me ask you if I'm enough to run a container like this and tell me no? And to reject my question or refuse my question. And the feedback from everybody was, we're not going to do that. There's no need to tell you that you're enough in that way. So there wasn't a sense there that they needed to give me affirmation, right?

1:09:34But that refusal, so you see how multi-layered this is, right? Like that refusal means I go, oh, I'm confronted with the fact that like people actually do trust me. And then now I have to walk away and deal with that. But in the dealing with that, what it did for me was that it called me to a higher normativity, which is okay. So people actually do trust me. My story is about them thinking I'm an imposter, all wrong. Like I hold my imposter syndrome with a degree of proportion, rational proportion. But then it could call me and open up more affordances of, okay, then I'm going to show up into conversation to join differently.

1:10:16I need to ask different questions. I need to do, I will be a little bit more rigorous. I can be more vulnerable, more humble with this. And it pop that open for me. So when I'm facilitating, I always take it that I don't have everything figured out, that I try and recognize where this work is something that I can exemplify and embody and trust that it will be of as much service to me as it is to everyone else. And in doing that, sort of actualize it. So I went around your question, but I think this is - No, no, no, no, no. You didn't go around it at all, maybe other than circumambulated in a platonic fashion, which I like.

1:11:00That was very helpful. I think people are getting a very good sense. And the fact that you're doing exactly what you just said, the three of you, you're exemplifying rather than merely demonstrating in a prescriptive propositional fashion. You're demonstrating by exemplifying. I think this has been very successful. I guess I'd like to start bringing this one to a close. We're at our time. And what I want to do is I want to shut up. And first of all, before I do, I'll thank all three of you. you all held your roles with a lot of good ratio religio and it was very very helpful and I thought there was good interaction between the three of you and also good interaction between the three of you and me that I think was helpful but now I want to be quiet and allow the three of you to bring this to a close in the way that you mutually see best fit

1:12:13I'm holding a question but I'm not sure if it's appropriate for closing but I'll try and we'll discuss maybe I had a follow-up question to what you were sharing about how facilitating the container has impacted you and how you've changed because of that I'm still curious about how that within the container that has transferred into your life. Sorry, how the change that has happened, say within the context of the container has transferred into your life. Yeah. Is that a new thing? That I think serves as a wonderful bridge into a third conversation. Because what this work has done is illuminated for me on its own terms in my own practice, which I imagine is different for John's path.

1:13:15Like it's kind of shown me a road, how to say it's like a path on the Silk Road that, you know, John is not tugging for me, but it's nonetheless in parallel. And that's the only thing I can articulate that is a deep calling to continue. It's a pilgrimage on its own. Yeah. So I think that's a good bridge. Yeah, that's what I would say to that. What do you have, brother?

1:13:51It's an honor to walk this path with you guys. Yeah. That's what I'm with. And with gratitude for you having us on. Yeah. That's what's here for me. Thank you. Oh, go ahead, Yali. I have often, no, I've been starting to describe Tiamat to other people as, oh, we are trying to teach, for lack of a better word, or enable people to be able to enact a relational ontology. and that has felt one of the most kind of radical changes in me and to me that has impacted every aspect of my life and how I treat people and how I treat the world. So, yeah.

1:15:02There's a lot. Like knowing that we are going into another big conversation soon, I feel at home, like more at home in the world in a sense of like, okay, I don't need to like put on my armor and like prepare this and prepare that and go in. It's more like this is my home, that's also my home. I'm just going to go in and be like, Oh, what's going to happen here with us today? And I feel really grateful that I can do that at all. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, John.

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