How to Get Your Kids to Eat Vegetables | Charlotte Stirling-Reed

0:00Dr. Karan Rajan: Fighting your child at dinner time has become the norm for most parents, especially if you want them to eat anything resembling a vegetable. But meal times don't have to be so hard, all so full of guilt. For all the advice you'll ever need, I'm joined today by Charlotte Stirling-Reed, baby and child nutritionist and Sunday Times bestselling author. Putting pressure on has the opposite effect. So if we press your kids to eat, it has the opposite effect at meal time. So that pressure, that one meal that you've got to eat this might help there and then, but it will not be helping long term. I'm Dr.

0:31Dr. Karan Rajan: Curran. And in this podcast, I speak to the world's foremost experts in science and medicine to cut through the BS of modern health advice. Thanks to Loam Science for sponsoring the show, the world's first invisible fiber blend with clinical trials. Charlotte Sterling-Reed you are a baby and child nutritionist and I'm sure you get so many parents asking you about probably their number one struggle which is how do I get my child or baby to eat more vegetables and I think that's probably a struggle most people face at some point is there something we're missing in that weaning stage where we can get our kids primed to actually enjoy vegetables well I love that you asked this question actually because it's it's a lot of the conversation that I have around introducing solid foods and weaning.

1:15So you have to really understand that babies are actually born with a preference for sweeter foods. We've seen this from research over years and years that babies prefer sweeter foods. And it kind of makes sense because sweet foods in nature tend to be quite nutrient rich and quite safe, whereas bitter foods are more likely to potentially contain toxins or poisons. So it makes sense for babies to prefer sweeter food. However, plonk us now into, you know, the environment we live in today. And what we have is actually a lot of sweet foods, really readily accessible, highly palatable, and actually not often ones that are going to add lots of nutritional benefit to us.

1:54So we're kind of pre-programmed to really like foods that actually aren't always going to be the best for us so yes during weaning some of the things that we can do is we can help babies to enhance their palate so what weaning is about is about introducing the new so rather than you know five years ago weaning was very much about offering sweet foods because that's what babies accept but actually now we know from research that introducing them to new tastes new flavors including bitter and savory options is really great for helping to encourage them to accept those flavors so i talk a lot and in my book i've got a whole kind of 30 day step-by-step guide to veg led weaning which is about introducing veggies and keeping them in the diet early because we know that first of all this helps them to learn to accept those tastes and second of all it helps them to be familiar with those foods and those flavors which not always not every single time does it work but which will hopefully help them to accept a variety of foods including some of those veggies later.

2:57Dr. Karan Rajan: So I guess, you know, it's about the exposure, right? And I think most of the studies that I read in the run up to chatting to you, it seemed I mean, this is not like a blanket rule, but around like the 10 to 14 exposures seems to make sense to continue to make it familiar to the baby or the toddler or the child. And where each step, it becomes less of a threat or something, and they can maybe get exposed to the taste, you know, more readily. And I think in most of the studies where consistent exposure to broccoli, for example, will increase the consumption of broccoli at some point. So, you know, if your child doesn't like broccoli the first or third time, you're just reducing the barrier to entry each time.

3:40Dr. Karan Rajan: And it may be the 12th time, the 15th time or the 20th time. At some point, they may enjoy it. Maybe some kids will never enjoy broccoli. But I think for most people, it's just about continued exposure. Exactly. I love the way you explain that as well because it really makes sense. I like to talk to parents about familiarity. You know, babies and kids, they like what is familiar, whether that's people, environment, bedding, routines, sleep. You know, everything is about familiarity. And it's the same with food. And unfortunately for some foods, it takes a little bit more nudging, exposure and help before those things will be accepted.

4:18so exactly 10 15 20 times some babies might be more than that and some of them might never like broccoli you know so it is really tricky for parents but the one thing i would say is try not to give up with foods it's very easy to offer foods two three times and then go they just don't like that and i see parents constantly who will come and say oh no they don't like that but actually we experience tastes so differently as we get older you know there's probably things that maybe you didn't eat as a kid same for me that actually we now accept like olives like red wine like coffee you know so taste change um and I think it's really important to remember as parents that just because they don't seem to or they don't appear to have quite accepted something it doesn't mean that's a hard no you know I love the statement that a lot of people in my field say which is that's okay you haven't learned to like that yet you know that yet really matters so and

5:14Dr. Karan Rajan: And also, I guess another really fear point or, you know, thing that worrying for parents is the type of eating behaviors some kids show where maybe they'll gorge on food and then not have food like for another meal. I guess as adults, adults are used to tracking their meals and having a certain allotment of calories per meal, whether it's five, six, 700 calories per meal and a range of nutrients per meal. And it's quite formalized in a way. And it's quite robotic. but in kids they have quite peculiar eating habits where they might not have anything for two meals or virtually anything and then gorge on a huge dinner.

5:52Dr. Karan Rajan: Is there fundamentally anything wrong with that type of eating pattern for a child? No, and I think, again, another thing it can be reassuring for parents to know that actually, you know, babies and toddlers have, I always say they're really fickle. They're really fickle. Their appetites are really fickle too because they are changing and developing at really fast rates. And also they're so influenced by so many outside factors. You know, the weather, what they ate yesterday, how they slept. All of these things will impact their appetite. And they're still very much learning their own appetite.

6:23They're learning, when am I hungry? What am I hungry for? They're also learning about things like patterns of eating. So a breakfast, lunch and dinner approach. And it all takes time to figure it out. And as I said, so many things like emotions, you know, will impact how, you know, children eat. distractions they're so readily distracted they can only pay attention for a certain amount of time so sitting at a meal for any longer might be boring for them so so many factors impact children's appetites they're very fickle with their eating so I always say to parents if your child's appetite is up and down please know that's normal very very normal I remember when I was weaning my son and it was actually he was actually about one year of age and I just remember he had the biggest drop in appetite and I suddenly thought oh my gosh what's going wrong but actually his growth rate had just slowed around one year of age children's growth rate starts to slow and before then it's incredibly rapid so actually sometimes you might not realize but actually they're just following their own intuition about how much food they need so I think it's important

7:26Dr. Karan Rajan: to listen to their their kind of they're kind of regulating and calibrating their own bodies and metabolism and they're being led by nature and i guess their appetite can be whatever their appetite is as long as they're not showing any signs of lethargy you know delayed milestones all the things you'd be concerned about from a medical point of view like any illness exactly but actually the appetite is not a marker or a barometer of how they're doing you should be looking at other major milestones definitely and i think yeah exactly as you said if they're not lethargic if they're not overly tired you know tired and not able to kind of get up and move about and run around um if they're producing kind of normal normal kind of bowel movements and and we as well um those are the kind of things to look for if they're growing properly all of these things if any of those were a concern i'd definitely be saying go and chat with your health visitor but ups and downs in appetite are really normal and also we have to remember that appetite is really different you know my daughter and my son have completely different appetites one eats huge amounts and likes big portion of meals and one is a bit of a grazer and she's much much happier with smaller amounts more often so we have to take that into account too i mean there's a concept called the division of responsibility which is something that can be really helpful for parents and i think it's helpful because it just takes a little bit of that pressure off you know i think a lot of parents i work with they have this desire which is which makes so much sense as a parent that we need to get them to eat i need to get them to eat I need to fuel them.

8:57I know that food is good. I know that it's energy. But actually taking a step back from that and realizing that we as parents, we're in charge of establishing a nice routine and a structure around food. And we're in charge of what we offer. So what food goes on that plate. But actually, it should be up to the child to decide how much and if they eat that food, because they are regulating their own appetite. They are quite good at being able to predict how much they need based on what they ate yesterday or how much milk they've had or, you know, what snacks they had, for example. So it's really hard.

9:33But actually, if you can step back and do that, I provide and I decide what's on offer. And my child decides if and how much they are actually going to eat at any given time.

9:43Dr. Karan Rajan: Well, you're the kind of, you know, the kitchen staff or you're the restaurant and they're the client, they're the customer who comes in and you have a set menu of things. so you can't make anything that's not on the menu. We provide you this and you pick what portion size and what flavors you want from this limited set of things. Exactly, exactly. And, you know, tying that concept to food refusal and the pressures that parents face around really picky eaters, I've seen you speak about this concept of buffet meals. How can that be helpful, especially when you've got picky eaters, and to reinforce that division of responsibility where you are the provider and you have boundaries, but they're wide boundaries and you can give them choice within the boundaries.

10:27Oh God, I'm such a big fan of buffet meals. It doesn't have to be every single time. It doesn't mean no more hot meals. You can have a hot meal and still have some kind of buffet options as well. But what that does is it gives children independence and actually around about 18 months of age, which is generally around about peak fussy eating behavior. So between about 18 months and three years of age, we normally say that's where fussy eating kind of rears its head. And also at that time, they're often seeking independence. So giving them a some independence. So here's a spread. You can help yourself.

11:02It really gives them some of the kind of autonomy around. And that's great. Number two, it takes the pressure off. So if you're going, here's your food, you help yourself. We take the pressure off of that meal. And actually research shows that putting pressure on has the opposite effect. So if we pressure kids to eat, it has the opposite effect at mealtime. So take the pressure off. And then thirdly, what we're doing, like we said already, is that exposure. Even if they don't touch it, even if they don't eat it, they're seeing a variety of food in front of them. And exposure doesn't have to mean eating it.

11:33It can mean seeing it. It can mean being around it. It can mean touching it.

11:36Dr. Karan Rajan: That increases familiarity meal upon meal. Exactly that. It's increasing that family. And if they're seeing you eat it, even more. So an example would just be you have some chicken, you have some pasta, you have some vegetables, you have some sides and mash, all sort of almost deconstructed. Yeah. And you kind of like choose your own adventure type thing. And they may just have the pasta and a bit of chicken and nothing else. Yeah. But you've given them the choice of six different plates of things. But they see you eat all of it. Yeah. All of that still helps. Exactly. Maybe not in this meal, but in the next five meals that may help.

12:09Dr. Karan Rajan: It's a longer term view. It's a longer term view. But, you know, that's that's the case for the pressure. So, for example, let's do the opposite of that. If you've got a child who sat at the meal and you're saying, right, here's your dish. This is what we want you to eat. We want you to eat it. And then you're putting pressure on them to try and eat that food because you're thinking, well, they're not getting anything else. Actually, that might be great in the short term. Maybe they might have two or three more spoonfuls of that meal in the short term. that's fine but in the long term their relationship with food their feeling for the next meal their enjoyment of eating their willingness to try their independence around eating all of that is not being helped so that pressure that one meal that you've got to eat this might help there and then but it will not be helping long term so what we're doing with this is we're actually going let's look at the long term let's not worry about this meal right now let's expose role model take pressure off, make mealtimes enjoyable, give them independence.

13:04And actually, that will help them with their long term eating behaviors.

13:08Dr. Karan Rajan: I guess we risk making food associated with punishment when you force something, right? And then even though when you're supervised, you might be obedient and eat that thing every single time, as you said, longer term, when they're teenagers, adolescents, when they're adults, and they're on their own, they will have that remnant memory of this being a bad experience so i don't like spinach because i was forced to eat spinach yeah and so beyond the nutrition benefit of spinach i'll never eat this because of the bad mental association i have with that yeah well i actually used to work with adults i worked in brighton at adult clinics um and i was so shocked by the number of adults who were coming to see us with problems around eating genuinely caused by being force fed as a child, whether that be you need to finish what's on your plate, whether that be, you know, forcing them to be eating vegetables.

14:03And quite a lot of those those adults who I worked with had problems with their food now, had really unhealthy relationships with food, ate, you know, either too much or too little. And it's really sad to see. So I think what we try and focus on now is thinking about you're not really thinking about this meal. You're thinking about your child's relationship with food later so that they're willing to go, oh, this is this is exciting. You know, I'm happy to explore this, eat to appetite, follow their own needs and also just be happy to explore and try new things, which takes time and effort. But it is really worth it in the long run, I think.

14:38Dr. Karan Rajan: What are some ways that maybe this isn't a long term strategy, but at least in the short and medium term, what are some good ways to sneak vegetables into your kids diet? Because sometimes, I mean, if they're going a week without touching a single green, you've got to get some in there anyway. Yeah, exactly. I think that, you know, this is a great conversation because on the one hand, I totally understand. Yes, we've got to get some of those veggies in there or maybe we need to get some nutrients and maybe it's iron. And there are ways you can do that. So, you know, blending into sauces is a great way.

15:10You know, I've done things like cauliflower blended into, you know, macaroni and cheese type dishes. Lentils, always my go to in like a tomato sauce, blend some lentils in. However, because what we've been speaking about so far, familiarity, exposure, we do also need to try and do that as well. Because you can't have, you know, can't be blending things into children's food forever. It's just not going to happen. When they go away, they're going to be like, no, I don't like those vegetables. But you'll be like, well, you've ate them. You just didn't realise you were eating them. But what we want is for them to eventually, not every food, but accept those foods.

15:47Accept them on their plate and eat them willingly. So that's about going, yeah, I'm going to blend some in. Brilliant. Or yeah, I'm going to make some really composite meals, which you've got some of those in. Maybe they're quite subtle, but we've got some in. We've got some onion. We've got some butternut squash that's been mashed into this, so you can't really see it. But at the same time, we're putting some on the side. So we're always trying to expose them to it. We're letting them know, yes, that is in your food. You know, there is some butternut squash in your food. You might not be able to see it.

16:14Dr. Karan Rajan: So when you explain to a child that the bolognese sauce that they've had actually contains some hidden lentils in addition to the meat, when you expose them to that truth, does that change how they think about it or are they surprised positively? To be honest with you, this is more about like a personality of the child. You know, some kids might be like, oh, you know, that's interesting. and other kids might, you might actually really, really scare them off. So I think you do need to be very careful because especially with children who have more feeding difficulties, you wouldn't want to add something to a food and especially a safe food, for example, that they already readily accepted.

16:51You wouldn't want to add something new, change it up because actually you might then stop that food being an accepted food. So it really depends on the child, the personality. But I would say, you know, I learned that really early with my kids. My son, he's the sort of person who is really willing to accept it. So if you said to him, he'd be like, oh, yes, okay, I'll try it. Whereas my daughter is likely to be like, no, no, I'm not having it. And we might need to go to her, you know, and I say about pressure a lot, but we might need to go to her. Okay, you don't have to eat it, but I think you'll like it if you give it a try.

17:23And then sometimes she can kind of be coaxed around to giving it a little go. But it's so dependent on personality. And sometimes that's what's really hard for parents because we've got to figure it out. But I do often say, you know, I would refrain from intentionally hiding lots of things. I'd say, yes, sure, make up a pasta sauce with the ingredients, make up a lasagna, make a curry and add those nutrients in it. But we do want to expose them at the same time, if that makes sense. Convoluted way of answering.

17:51Dr. Karan Rajan: So I guess how useful are other techniques like such as making sure you cook it in different ways, you season it differently, maybe you're eating it with them, you're getting them to prepare the dish with you so they're hands on, maybe even, you know, growing the vegetables. So it's literally from your garden to the plate, they've been involved in their entire journey. All those different techniques, are they additive? Oh, completely. They're all exposure again. And I know I use this term exposure, but I mean, what I mean is, you know, building that familiarity. So shopping, you know, at the shopping, can you say to them, go and grab this and this and this for me?

18:30Then can you say to them, this is the recipe we're going to make? You know, can you say, could you wash those green beans for me? Could you help me chop the tops off of them? You know, absolutely. Get them involved at every level. Because like I said, the more that those foods become the norm. Yes. They become that's what we eat. That's what we shop for. That's what we buy. That's what I see every day. I promise you it makes a huge difference to children's acceptance, especially if we don't then draw too much attention to the oh, yucky, I don't want to eat that. Yeah. OK, don't have to eat it.

19:01Dr. Karan Rajan: What about what are your thoughts on allowing them to play with the food during dinner time? Well, I definitely think from a young age, you know, babies and toddlers, again, it's exposure. It's learning. We're going, well, what does that feel like in my fingers? Yep, don't like that. Throw that on the floor. It's very painful. And you will experience that soon, I bet. But it's all, again, it's learning and it's exposure. And if we're saying, don't do that, don't touch that, wipe your hand, wipe your mouth. Actually, what we're doing is we're kind of teaching them that this food isn't OK. So actually, yes, some playing with the food, exposing with it.

19:34And actually, in quite a lot of sessions around food refusal and fast eating, there is a lot of food play. You take a step back and you say, don't worry about getting them to eat it. Just let them play with it. Let them explore it. But honestly, one of the key, key things is letting them see you eating it. And that is, you know, I do bang this drum a lot. But if you think about, you know, babies, toddlers, they learn language. They learn what to accept. They learn, you know, etiquette. they learn walking talking everything comes from observation and i think what a lot of parents don't realize is that meal time is so important as learning and if your baby is not watching you eat ever which often happens by the way during weaning because what often happens is parents make a separate meal and they'll go right let me sit down and feed my baby i'm going to concentrate on feeding my baby and they don't eat and actually babies will learn what foods to accept how to eat how to bite, chew, swallow, what's a normal food, what's a normal meal, simply from observing.

20:37So much as you can, eat with them.

20:39Dr. Karan Rajan: So, okay, for example, my baby is about five months old. In the next month or so, we'll begin that weaning journey. Say, for example, a meal is like a, you know, mashed banana and avocado that we try to, you know, expose the child to that. would you recommend best practice is me eating that same mash you don't need to eat the mash no i promise you don't need to just be having purees but what you could do is have elements of it so what did you say it was again avocado banana avocado banana so maybe you have your meal and then on the side you've got some finger food of avocado and banana um maybe you could have a little bit of that spread on a toast finger it you don't have to be eating exactly the same as them every single time but it's really good especially as they get older and a bit more aware to be eating similar things because if you're always having a completely different meal to them they're going to be thinking well you know what why is this important for me to eat you're not eating it so i think as much as you can try and and actually as once you've gone through those first few days really of weaning you can absolutely offer your home cooked food the foods that you're eating can be given to baby you need to go a bit easy on the spice you need to go a bit no no salt and no sugar added but you can absolutely give a variety of the food you might want to start small so for example if you are offering something like lentils or spice for example you'd go in a small amount and then you'd build up over time but you can also build up with the variety that you're offering so just for example let's take from spaghetti bolognese, you might go, right, well, I'm going to, you know, blend this up to begin with.

22:21Doesn't sound great, but actually babies do love it. And then eventually you might go, well, you know, they can have the tomato, they can have the cheese, they can have the beef, they can have the lentils, they can have the pasta, they can have all of that meal. So it's about gradually moving them on to meals that you eat as a family too. And that's really key for their learning about food.

22:39Dr. Karan Rajan: It's funny because I'm really close to my parents and they're very involved in you know raising my son as well and they were just saying yeah because because i really got so in the weeds about reading about weaning and the microbiome of babies and my mom who's a doctor as well she was just like it's funny because like you're reading about all of this science and all this stuff when you were a baby we literally just gave you what we were cooking in like a almost like a blended milkshake form or pureed form sometimes and we just gave you that If we're having a spinach curry at home, you'd get the spinach curry.

23:13Dr. Karan Rajan: If we're having chickpeas, you'd get mashed chickpeas. You were just having that and there was no real thoughts. And, you know, in that way, you just got what we were having without any fuss and you were not a fussy baby at all. You just ate whatever we did. You ate what was there. You know, in fact, I'm probably a more fussy adult than I was as a baby. Yeah. You know. I love that. I genuinely love that. And I think that's happening all the time, you know, in other parts of the world as well. You know, we don't always follow the same. You know, for example, like I said, if you go back five or six years, then very typically it was, you know, we were giving fruit purees and it was like a fruit.

23:46And then the next day would be a fruit and then it would be a banana and then it would be an apple and then it would be a pear. You know, we don't need to do that. You know, I in my book, I talk parents through offering veggies for the first 10 days of weaning, really just as an introduction and to tick off that kind of different flavors, the variety, the bitter, the savory. and then thereafter it really is about just building another thing on top of that so it might be that you go broccoli and then you go broccoli with potato and then you go broccoli with potato with lentils for example and then maybe you add a little bit of spice to it it's nice to gradually build babies up to those meals but you don't have to you can absolutely go in with more variety right from the start and there's a couple of key things so trying to get the veggies in trying to get allergens in really important and also making sure that you're offering foods that are appropriate in terms of their textures and finger foods alongside.

24:40And if you can stick with those and obviously avoiding foods not to offer, if you can stick with those, then absolutely, you know, do your own weaning journey for sure.

24:48Dr. Karan Rajan: I want to talk about something that's quite personal to me and about some medical conditions that I suffered from. I used to have high cholesterol and fatty liver disease, and that primarily stemmed from a severe lack of fibre in my diet. And on my quest for finding the perfect fibre supplement over the last few years that could help me add more fiber into my diet, I couldn't find one. That ticked all the boxes that I wanted and the high bar that I set for myself. So it built Loam Science. What I'm most proud of is not the product. I know that's great, but it's the fact that we've run two clinical trials on it, two randomized controlled trials, which is far more than the vast majority of supplements on the market will ever do.

25:24Dr. Karan Rajan: And we've got even more coming because I'm a doctor first and foremost and a scientist. And I wanted to build something that I could actually stand behind with data and not just rely on good branding. So if you want to understand what's inside loam science and why, the science is all on the website and the link is in the show notes. I think the allergy thing is so important, especially with the recent evidence around the LEAP trial where, you know, six months to one year, you want to get those peanuts. You know, especially if, you know, they're a high risk of peanut allergy, which I think it's 1 % in the Western world.

25:56Dr. Karan Rajan: 1 % of kids have a peanut allergy these days, which is significant. you know if you get in those peanuts early it's a lifetime persistent reduction in peanut allergy risk as well egg allergens all those sort of things so that is definitely top of mind for me to see if i can bolster their microbiome their immune system by getting in those allergens as soon as the research is so compelling on that from six months you benefit actually absolutely so from from when you start weaning it's a really good idea to get the allergens in nice and early and egg and peanut are the two that have been the most studied.

26:31So it's a really good, they need to be offered in formats that are appropriate. So for example, a peanut need to be offered like as a peanut butter, but also watered down. So yeah, or stirred into a puree, for example, you start with a really small amount of an allergen. And then, you know, if your baby accepts it and there's no kind of reaction, then the next day you can add a little bit more. And then the next day you can add a little bit more. And then the most important thing is to then keep that allergen in the diet really regularly because it's the keeping it in the diet that helps to really reduce the risk.

27:03Dr. Karan Rajan: Train the immune system. Exactly. Reduce the risk of an allergy developing. So would it just be like blending some peanuts, mixing it with water so you've got like a very loose paste? You could absolutely do that. Or you could just offer, like I said, 100 % nut butter. You could either water it down, you could add baby's milk, or you could stir it into a puree. It's quite tacky on its own, so you wouldn't want to offer it. And like I say, start with a really small amount. So you might want to start with a quarter or half a teaspoon. And the same with egg. Egg should be well cooked all the way through the first on, well, probably the first couple of times that you give it to baby.

27:34Well cooked all the way through a really small amount. Start with and again, you could offer it, you know, really well scrambled. You could hard boil it and then mash it up really well and then offer it again stirred into a puree, for example. And then if your baby, no reaction, they seem to accept it. as I said, offer it in larger amounts the next couple of days and then just make sure it's a regular part of their diet for the next, you know, for the next few years, basically.

28:00Dr. Karan Rajan: I guess a lot of parents also, you know, it's a busy time, it's a stressful time. They feel they maybe need to cook everything. Is there anything wrong with almost like having a deconstructed meal, just components of a meal? You know, if you just had a single ingredient here, another single ingredient here, and you just gave that to someone, is there anything fundamentally wrong with that attitude as well? Definitely not. I mean, I love, I always call them fridgerade meals where you basically get home and you're like, right, what am I going to feed these kids? And you throw the fridge open and you just get picky bits, you know, here, here, here.

28:33I actually find that sometimes they're the most balanced. I think if you're, obviously it's really good to expose children to variety. So some cook meals, some meals that are picky meals, some that are just sandwiches, you know, the variety thing really matters because if a child was only offered those deconstructed meals. And actually, I found with my son really interesting you say that because when I was weaning my son, I was basically showing a lot of what I was doing online. And it was a time when actually there was those kind of like separated divider plates were really popular. They were all the rage.

29:08And I was doing a lot of his meals like that because they look great. They look lovely on the plate. But actually, I then found when I was trying to make composite meals, where I was mixing everything together, he was starting to refuse them. So having them all separate is absolutely fine. There's no problem with it. It's nice and easy for a parent. It's great for a baby to be able to see and explore. But actually, I would say it's great to also change it up as well. Because like I say, my son and I remember so many parents writing to me saying they won't accept any composite meals anymore. So that's the thing.

29:42Like we say, you've got to go back to that thing. Babies like, and toddlers, they like what's familiar. So what are we making familiar? And I love that. I always say this, which is if you give a baby 50 foods and then when they get to two, they go through that fussy stage, they're going to probably reject, let's say, 10, 20 of those foods. But if a baby has only really ever had 10, 15 foods and then they get to that fussy stage, they're still going to reject about 10, 15 foods. So, you know, the variety, getting them used to accepting a variety and like you said earlier, offering foods in different ways.

30:21You know, sometimes broccoli is plain, sometimes it's cooked, sometimes it's grated into something, you know, sometimes it's in tiny bits, sometimes it's baked into a muffin. offering things in loads of different ways offers that kind of normality of it's not just like this and I give the example of again my um my kids we obviously love bread in that in our house we have a lot of bread yeah but we have such a variety you know sometimes it's a sourdough sometimes it's a granary sometimes it's a sliced hovis can I say that yeah loaf um you know it's it's a variety of different types of bread all the time.

30:56And so for my kids, if I said we're having toast and then I put down a granary or, you know, a wholemeal rye loaf, they would not go absolutely not touching that.

31:06Dr. Karan Rajan: Yes. But then we've been with friends where I've offered like a wrap that's brown and they're like, that's not a wrap. So, you know, again, it's just about that variety. Variety, if kids get used to it, variety, seeing lots of different foods, you know, I don't know if I explained that well. No, I see that as well. But I mean, certainly for me when growing up, I obviously grew up in an Indian household, a lot of spices, lots of different flavors. And I never had a problem with any vegetables growing up because it was always, I wouldn't say disguised, but it was flavored with various spices. It was part of a curry.

31:40Dr. Karan Rajan: It was part of composite meals rather than on their own. And I came to the UK when I was five years old. And so whether it's in the school canteen, at friends' houses or just out and about, the vegetables that I would eat would be in separate isolated components. I would just have like a steamed broccoli. And so when I first came across like a steamed broccoli, I was like, this is disgusting. Yeah. Because I'm used to having it in a curried form. Right. Yeah. And so even now, I don't like steamed vegetables that are just on their own. But I'm adult enough to know that they're good for me. And if that's the only thing there, I'll eat it because it's fiber and it's nutritious.

32:18Dr. Karan Rajan: But I don't like it. And I guess that's like the other side of things. I'm so used to a certain type of thing, but also just like flavor. I mean, at the end of the day, I'm also philosophically aligned that when I eat something, I want to enjoy it. And whilst I do appreciate that I need to get certain nutrients, I do want to enjoy food because otherwise, what's the point? You know, I'm not a robot that just needs charging. I want to actually be happy with, you know, these three meals a day because, you know, that's most of your life. You've got to enjoy it, right? Exactly. And I think that's the trouble.

32:50That's what breaks my heart about kids who refuse food because they really don't enjoy it. And it is about enjoyment. I totally, totally agree with you. And, you know, what you just said kind of reinforces what we said. You liked what you were familiar with. Yes. And you didn't like what you weren't familiar with. And that's, again, what we're saying the whole time, offer things in different ways. But I totally agree with you, you know, especially as kids get older and they can have a little bit more in the way of variety and flavors added into their diets. You know, cooking with spices, there's so much that you can add to foods.

33:24You know, I just think, you know, the cooking is just such a joy, isn't it? Because there's so many different things you can do. You can add it. You know, my son is a balsamic vinegar addict. He would literally put it on everything. But again, if you add some balsamic vinegar with the other day, we made some kale crisps, which you don't make that often, to be honest, but whack them in the oven. And then I just drizzled balsamic vinegar over them. Kids went absolutely wild for them. You know, you can add flavors and herbs and spices and make things taste better and make them more enjoyable. Yes.

33:54But I would say with babies, it's great to get them used to the plain flavors of those veggies so that they do experience like, well, what does that taste like? and hopefully build up some familiarity with that variety of flavors. But as soon as you've done that, you know, during weaning, it's absolutely fine to add herbs, spices, loads of different flavors. And the best thing to do is to choose what you use in your own home cooking and replicate that in the foods that you're making for your baby. Because guess what? If you give those flavors to your baby when they're little, when they are older, they will much more likely accept the flavors of your home cooking, which is one of the biggest problems with pouches, you know.

34:33that it doesn't emulate what a family home cooked meals to actually taste like.

34:37Dr. Karan Rajan: You know, in the sort of adult world, we've seen a huge boom. And I think it's like 105 % increase year on year in the number of foods that have protein added onto them. Are you seeing a similar boom in the kids world where there's like protein halos with certain packaged foods? I think so. I think people are very confused about the protein craze. and I definitely think it translates to parents thinking we need to get our children to have them. But actually, most children get more than enough protein in their diet. And most children have milk, which is a source of protein. And then, you know, it's actually very, very readily available nutrient protein.

35:16It's in so many foods. So babies and toddlers don't need added protein, extra protein. They just need a variety, you know, a really nice, varied diet. And that is also, I would say to any parent who is worrying about that, children in the UK generally do not have a problem with not getting enough protein. They really, really don't. So a variety, what we would normally recommend and the kinds of foods that hopefully you eat as an adult are absolutely fine for your little one.

35:45Dr. Karan Rajan: And, you know, similarly, there's been a lot of hype and fear mongering around ultra processed foods and a lot of ultra processed foods are fortified with nutrients that are beneficial for kids that they may be not really getting from other things, you know, in cereals and bread and milk. And a lot of them just accessible and convenient for parents. They're cheap. They're shelf stable. And it's just easy to feed our kids with. Do you think the excessive fear mongering actually restricts the amount of choice available for busy parents who are already stressed as it is? Oh, my gosh. Yes, I do. I think, you know, there's a balance to be had because, yes, you know, in the UK, we are a very we are a nation who eats a huge amount of ultra processed foods.

36:28And there's no getting away from that. Us and our kids are eating too many ultra processed foods. So that is one case that is non you know, you can't really argue against that. however the scaremongering the telling everyone that this food is toxic and bad and poisonous and you should never give this to your kids and the supermarket dancers it's it's just it's just not okay you know as parents i think that we are living at a time which is very very hard we're getting bombarded with advice and information constantly we're always being judged about how we're parenting and what we're doing um messages about health tend to be more confusing than ever I sometimes think.

37:08So I really feel for parents. And there are a lot of foods out there that are deemed as processed and even ultra processed that actually are really nutritionally beneficial. So, you know, the same advice tends to go that we would normally give to us as adults, which is try and largely make foods from home. But absolutely it is fine for your little ones to be having convenience foods every now and then as well, you know, and things like cereal that's fortified, bread that is also fortified, you know, sliced bread that is fortified. You know, yogurts that are being manufactured for you. It's absolutely fine to include those in our diet.

37:43Try not to have quite so many sweets, cakes, biscuits. You know, this is, it comes back to that basic side. I think most of us really know that like sweets, cakes, biscuits, chocolates should be foods that we probably don't eat very many of. And we don't give to our children very often. But other than that, you know, variety and balance matters massively. Right.

38:04Dr. Karan Rajan: It's like there's fundamentally a difference in, you know, even the spectrum of ultra processing from, you know, a donut, which fine, have it now and then. But then also something like a tin of baked beans, which maybe certain amounts may have high sugar and high salt, but also protein, fiber, easily accessible, bit of iron. So, you know, that is like an easy, quick upgrade for anyone, you know, instead of having maybe sometimes cereal for breakfast. If you gave your kids some baked beans with some rye bread, that's suddenly actually a pretty nutritious meal. Absolutely. And, you know, they might enjoy it as well.

38:40Exactly that. And I think that sometimes parents, yeah, exactly what the question that you asked, you know, parents are being scared of giving their children some of these choices, which actually are going to be really beneficial. I mean, when you look at nutrition data of kids, sometimes the cereals that they are having are providing a huge amount of their nutrient intakes. So actually people shaming and saying we shouldn't be giving any of these cereals. Well, actually, that's a really big contribution to some of those vitamins and vitamins that are really vital for young children. So, you know, I would say, for example, if you are looking for a breakfast cereal, go for one that is slightly lower in sugar.

39:14But do choose one that is fortified, which is automatically going to make it an ultra processed food. So, you know, it's a really tricky one. But I think there's a balance to be had. And most of us have this idea of what balance looks like. You know, if we go back to basics and stop listening to the this is toxic, this will kill you. All of these foods are terrible. Everything's ultra processed. It is too much, you know, and I think we do need to just realize there are some foods that we need to not give to our kids for choking hazards or because they can't have them. But other foods, they can have them every now and then.

39:50And other than that, it's this balance and variety of food and nutrients that we want to be giving that hopefully we have as ourselves.

39:57Dr. Karan Rajan: And on that same kind of note, there's a lot of fear mongering, as you mentioned, about baby food pouches. Why is that fear mongered so much since it's such a convenient thing for parents to use? Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's a tricky one, this, because it's one of those things. It's like, well, we do need to make sure that the public are aware that actually these foods aren't necessarily developmentally appropriate for children on a really regular basis. So with the baby food patch, because I actually did a lot of work around this, it's really important to get the message out to parents that they are absolutely fine to offer to babies.

40:32They're great if you need to chuck them in your bag when you're going out and you don't know what lunch is going to be. or if you get home and you're absolutely knackered and you think, I'm so relieved that I've got this pouch to give my baby because actually it ticks off a box. However, there are reasons why they're not ideal as everyday food options or as meal replacements on the regular. And the companies will say this themselves. You know, they aren't ideal as meal replacements on a regular basis. And that's because A, sometimes the processing of them will reduce the level of nutrients in them.

41:05B, because they are offered on spouts, actually the texture inside them is limited. And one of the things we haven't really spoken about yet, but texture is really important for helping babies to learn how to eat. If they don't have bits and pieces and lumps and bumps in their food, they aren't actually able to learn how to bite, chew, swallow, move that food around, use their oral...

41:27Dr. Karan Rajan: It's actually jaw development and oral development. Exactly. Their oral motor skills are developed by being given pieces of food and textures of food. And baby pouches are limited in what those textures can be because of the spout and the size. They also often do come with much more sweet options because as I mentioned at the beginning, babies are born with a preference for sweet foods. So actually being given sweeter food options means that babies are more likely to go, yeah, I'll have that one. And so they're repeat purchased. So they're often a lot more sweet than they ought to be. and also quite often they're not really like a composite meal so they're not containing you know the kind of balance so the carbohydrates the proteins veggies for example that we would like to see in those meals so there's a number of reasons that they shouldn't be given as a regular basis but they are absolutely fine to offer every now and then I think that there's a lot of scaremongering for sure about them but you know a lot of what I try and do is put out the messages that if you are choosing them choose ones that are kind of older than your baby's age so you've got a bit more texture choose ones based on savory foods more than sweet um choose ones that are um if you look at the back of the pack the ingredients are the kinds of things that you would be putting into your baby's meal so if it's spaghetti bolognese it's not got apple puree it's the number one ingredient for example um try not to offer them all the time and then when you are offering them trying to cant them onto a spoon so you can train their tongue and so that they are being exposed to the food so first of all if you think it's babies are sucking food from a pouch they're not smelling it they're not seeing it all that exposure that again we've talked about they're not actually being exposed to food they're just sucking something through a vehicle and they're never actually having to see what food looks like and we want to build familiarity with kids with food you know and eating is it's so much it's smelling the food it's seeing the food it's tasting it so you know decant it into a bowl and try and feed it to your baby so that they can smell it taste it see it um and and also the other thing that's really key is offering finger foods alongside it because again pouches you know it's not really something baby needs to do much effort or work to actually eat but if you can offer some finger foods alongside maybe turn it into a dip Spread it on some toast, top it on some pasta.

43:52It's absolutely fine to be offered in those ways as well. So, yeah.

43:56Dr. Karan Rajan: And moving from kids to, well, like sort of toddlers and babies to slightly older, you know, there's some new reforms hopefully coming for, you know, kids school meals next year. There was, you know, something that was passed on the 14th of September of this year, talking about how they're going to improve the standard of the school meals with, you know, some certain carbohydrates and proteins with every meal. I think back to when I was you know like a kid in school I was being served like you know just pizzas and burgers and there was no set nutrients that were demanded in any specific food I remember this was like in the in the early 90s do you think this is a positive change and is there any hesitation that you have that there's this big grand message that we're about to send and how would actually translate practically from grassroots level number one but also number two we can have something which is cleaner healthier but ultimately the food is only going to be as good as as it is if it actually ends up in someone's stomach not in the bin agreed right absolutely first of all i am i do like the guidelines i actually think they're good i think they're strong but flexible.

45:08And I think they take into account a lot of different needs at schools, for example. I think they could always go further. I mean, definitely. And I am interested to see how they will be monitored because that's also the case. You can write guidelines, but actually, how does that translate to them actually sticking and being utilised? So yes, I think they are good. I think that we do need to change what we are offering to children as the norm. You know, what is the norm for our foods because having a sticky selfie pudding every day five times a week is probably not great for a society that has uh you know is is concerned around obesity levels and ultra processed food and how much our kids are eating and sugar and salt etc so yes i think we do need a change um i think that like i said in the guidelines there is a lot of flexibility so if children have dietary requirements special eating you know feeding and feeding issues there are ways that a school is recommended to be handling this and it is recommended in the guidance but I do think there are some concerns so first of all as you said you know fussy eating and food refusal is a massive problem at schools and I went to a meeting about this about two weeks ago where you know schools were basically saying it's really tricky we've got so many children who are fussy who refuse food and if we change the menus and we're having lentils and beans on the menus are is this going to put kids off so I know that's a real concern and I think a gradual transition will help that and I think also trying to you know build familiarity by cooking foods that still have that familiar you know um yeah familiarity I think that is definitely one concern I think around that and I think the other thing for me is schools being able to actually do this you know schools aren't being given any more funding right and I think that's a real shame because i think most things right of course but we haven't had an update in school recommendations for 10 years and a lot of schools are already struggling with what they're doing and the money that they've got and the kitchen and the facilities and the staff you know and i think that it's such a shame that this can't go asking a lot it's asking a lot yeah yeah

47:17Dr. Karan Rajan: yeah it is what would i mean you've given so much like wonderful advice in your videos and even on this podcast as well and if there was really one simple thing that doesn't overwhelm parents that is a nice simple swap that they could make today without too much of an impediment in their lives to improve the nutrition their child is getting but also not a day and night change what would that simple swap be okay so i'm going to do two things one simple swap one one is about the not necessarily a food swap a behavior swap if that's okay and i will i will come back to a food swap but a behavior swap and the reason i say this is because food is so much about behavior so i would say the one thing you can do if you know with your children is step back from that mealtime and go how can i make this enjoyable for my child or my baby because so often we're going into mealtimes and it's tense and they don't want to be there and you don't want to be there and everyone's stressed and everyone's refusing and then you're saying well I've just cooked this etc etc take a step back from mealtimes and instead of focusing on the food swap the idea of I need to get them to eat to I need to make this mealtime enjoyable and it can make such a difference it can take the pressure off you the pressure off them and it can make it an occasion that we want to be You know, quite often with kids, you know, we might take them to soft plays and help them to learn to walk and crawl and, you know, and it's all fun.

48:49You know, milestones with kids tend to be fun. But unfortunately, food often doesn't work that way because of the way that we, you know, we do it. So, yeah, my main thing would be saying swapping that behavior from, you know, getting them to eat at mealtimes to how can I make this mealtime enjoyable? That would be my number one thing. Oh, gosh, in terms of a food swap. Okay, just because I've talked about it so much, lentils.

49:13Dr. Karan Rajan: Yeah, love it. Add lentils into their diet, whether that be in a curry with spaghetti bolognese, whether that be, you know, baking some into some muffins, whether that be if you're making meatballs, you can make half of lentils. Lentils are such a good food. They're underused and they're underrated and they are so good. They're a great source of iron. And they contain fiber, which actually meat might be a source of wine, but it doesn't actually contain fiber. They contain fiber. They contain B vitamins. They contain other vitamins and minerals. They don't cost a lot of money. They are, most of the time, they don't really have much of a flavor.

49:50So you can easily add them into dishes. So if you make one swap, add some lentils in. And I'm so thrilled I've done two swaps. It's very typical of me. No, no, I love it.

49:58Dr. Karan Rajan: I mean, I'm a big fan of beans and lentils. I grew up a lot around them. and as you said, so convenient, so cheap. And, you know, I think a lot of what we've discussed today is going to be personally very useful, you know, along my journey. So I'll have to keep you posted. Oh, I'm so excited for you. Yeah, please do keep in touch and I will definitely get you a copy of my book. Charlotte, thank you so much for all the advice. Thank you so much.